SinisterDirge
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Important stuff in bold.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Except that's not what he said. If you have to put words in his mouth so blatantly, then your position must be REALLY tenuous.
-LuminaraQuote:You can't bring yourself to admit that you're not the foremost expert on Co* mechanics (despite not even being capable of figuring out what powers do when you have Mids' and in-game descriptions available) or character design, or that this is just another one of your historically typical attempts to con the developers into changing the game so you can have your tankmage, so you keep coming back and arguing with or threatening mod action against anyone who dares to use facts or reasonable advice to refute your self-imposed, imaginary problems. -
Quote:Wow Johnny... Couldnt have said it better myself.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Right. And the devs are not in the business of giving people who have no idea what game balance is, and people who want to build a defblasttankscraptrollebrutenatoralker what they want. Just because a few people dont know how to use the tools the devs have already given us is no reason to try and change it.
Right. If they were built better, without the expectaion of being a tankmage they would be suprised they may actually be able to have fun. Makes perfect sense then that our builds, playstyles and expectations need to change.
Yes, Ultimo_, stop being an idiot and try to actually use a few of the plethora of recomendations made rather than ***** and moan. Stop posting about things you have no concept of, stick with whether Triple H would be the best Thor. Leave the game mechanics to people that understand it. It's not the devs fault the powers you choose don't do exactly what you want them to. It's perfectly fair for some power sets to have advantages that everyone wants and disadvantages that are worth it when looked at the whole set. And it's also perfectly fair for other power sets to trivialize the disadvantages of your set when teaming. That makes the game interesting. And if your concept happens to call for something that is not possible in the game, then I guess you will need to compromise and figure out what qualities of it are most important to you..
The lesson you should take away from this is at least give what people suggest a shot. Expect that if you are going to build "out of the box" perhaps you will have some successes, and some builds that dont work so well. The important thing is if your expectations are not so unreasonable and broken, you may just have fun.
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Quote:Valid point, its all relative. However, the Op specifically said that he has to stand infront of the mob and take the hits and die because lack of end has left him no other options. Now I perceive that to mean he has absolutely no end. I also perceive that to be a bit of an exaggeration. Like one you could drive a truck through.Originally Posted by Tyrrano
I was struck by an idea while rereading Catwhoorg's post quoted earlier (thanks for that BTW). In it, the OP had claimed after a sequence of actions that he was 'out of end' and Cat provided us with the math to show he had to have at least 24-25% END remaining.
It reminded me of a discussion about Teleport. Part of that whole discussion was about END usage and the relative worth of showing up at a mission door fresh and ready to fight or popping in with your END bar at 30-50% or even less.
I think some players simply get uncomfortable when the bar drops below about 2/3 full. (Health or END bar, same situation, different causes) These players, if they get down to 25% or less are convinced they're going to run out of END/HP and panic. Maybe they run. Maybe they quit attacking or run into melee so they can use Brawl. Maybe they stop to fumble with their inspirations tray to make some blues/greens. When if they had simply kept going, maybe they'd actually finish the mob off.
These same folks would never want to start a fight without their bars topped off, for fear that they'd 'run dry' in the next fight.
I guess what I'm saying is, numbers may not lie, but our perception of their meaning is infinitely variable. If your build is at 1/3 END after an ordinary fight, you might be perfectly OK with that, while another player might be apoplectic.
Just food for thought - really doesn't change the discussion much I guess but it was on my (sorry excuse for a) mind and thought I'd trot it out there. -
Quote:I wonder if they could take some of the player created guides from the forums, and use them in game to explain systems like this. No offence to the dev's, but some of the player created guides do a MUCH better job at explaining things than the current in game introductions.Originally Posted by Ignatz
I think educating new players about IOs and inspiration use is all that is necessary. Heck...even properly slotting DOs and good inspiration use is more than possible.
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Quote:I agree it wouldnt hurt to have it mentioned. However, How long does it take a new player to figure out they can /em boombox.Originally Posted by Ignatz
I can see a problem in the 10-20 range for new players that haven't a clue about combining inspirations. Perhaps that single clue should be shown automatically at low levels to better educate new players. I use almost no inspirations soloing except blue ones 1-20.
Part of the fun in a new game is figuring out all the little stuff. Sorry, part of the fun for ME in a game is figuring out the little stuff... If everything is explained, where is the excitement of discovery?
As I said though, sure, go ahead and explain it... -
Just rolled two corrs yesterday for dual boxing. Fire/traps, and Fire/storm. Very complementary. Running through early levels like **** from a goose.
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From here on I will respond directly to Ultimo_ using other peoples quotes from threads he has started, still make my point and be on topic.
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Quote:No.Originally Posted by rsclark
Isn't that basically the equivalent of having your wisdom teeth taken out one at a time?
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Quote:I dont understand what you are saying. Please elaborate.Originally Posted by rsclark
Selecting powers doesn't mean you need to slot them right now. You see, this is the difference between an interesting choice - say better damage vs better control vs more defense - vs a silly choice - say stand around and do nothing for extended time during fights vs take stamina. A good choice is one where all options have plusses and minuses. Taking another attack when you can't power the ones you already have is lacking in the "plus" department, making stamina the only real option.
So you take a new and exciting power, but wait to slot it up way down the road? I mean, if you want a damage power, wouldnt you want to slot it so it is even more usefull to you?
Oh... you mean take another power, and further dilute the actual damge you are doing(but you are swinging dammnit!), and spend more end doing it, as opposed to slotting what you curently have to be more efficient? I think I see your problem with end at lvl 3 now... -
Quote:Ha. You have problems defeating a lvl 3 spawn because of end? are you running missions at +4/8 already? You need to pause to kill one luit and maybe 2 minions? Wow. End aint your problem.Originally Posted by rsclark
As soon as end gets tight?
So level 3 then? -
Quote:I dont know, I've been tempted, and this thread was the first time I have paid attn to anything you have said. You provide fodder, no worries.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
By all means, read the whole thread. You'll find I wasn't the one that started slinging insults. Just don't post about it here, it's off topic and an obvious attempt to find something that can be used to insult me further, since this thread isn't providing enough fodder.
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Quote:Once again... try to pay attention. All the AT's do different things.(There is a little overlap, yes) For instance. Blasters do damage, and a might have a little debuffing from secondary effects(sonic for instance) Defenders Buff/Debuff, blast, and have much stronger secondary effects in their blasts.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I'm not suggesting revamping the whole game. I'm just suggesting that endurance costs could use a bit of evening out across the board. I mean, it does depend on the specific power sets, but some ATs generally use more endurance to achieve the same ends as others do. Tankers and Defenders are examples, but it's more complicated than simply boosting endurance for everyone. Certainly, that would help everyone, but it wouldn't level the playing field at all.
If you want them(blasters and defenders) to do the same amount of damage for the same endurance, they will have to have the same amount of debuffing/buffing and have the same secondary effects. That is equality.
Only want the defender to do 80% of the damage as the blaster? Already there bub!(when solo)
The way it currently is, is balanced.
How about tankers and scrappers then? Tankers defences are there to allow them to survive while controling aggro(please note the distinction between controlling aggro, and just getting aggro, big difference.) and do a fair amount of damage. Scrappers do a crapload of damage, with enough survival to stay in melee long enough to defeat the mob. (It is up to the individual to decide what is more imortant to them, survival, or damage and pick the AT from there.)
To equalize them to do the same amount of damage for endurance cost, you need to either decrease the defence on the tanker, and bring its damage up, or increase the survivability of the scrapper, and decrease its damage. That is equality.
City of Sheep? Where every toon is the same? I hope to hell not.Quote:Originally Posted by Ultimo_
If you're asking how I would redesign the game from the ground up, I'll gladly describe that, but it would be long, largely off topic and unlikely to happen in any case.
I think the problem is you cant look at the game objectively. You don't sit back and say ohhhh... right, that might be overpowered, or unfair to other AT's. If this did go through, and defenders did do the same amount of damage as a blaster, but kept all of their buffing/debuffing, would you then roll a blaster, and in a couple weeks come to the boards complaining that you dont buff/debuff as well as a defender while they get the same blasts as you? Blasters should get more damage... Ad Infintium.
Your subjectivity is perhaps better suited to threads that don't discuss game mechanics. -
Quote:Holy crap, its like he has a form letter for starting threads...Originally Posted by Reiraku
I think ______ is a problem. Devs need to fix _____ right now. No, I am not interested in what other people can do to help me with _____. I really dont understand the mechanics of _______ but I will ***** about it anyway. I dont care if changing _______ will upset the balance of the game. I think that new players find ______ too difficult. I wont give any evidence of why _____ is broken, I will just state it. I will ignore all other positions about _____ because I dont know how to debate.
Please dont flame me about ____. This is a serious discusion. The topic is ______, please stay on it, unless of course I feel like going off topic.
With love,
Ultimo_
Go ahead... fill in the blanks. -
Quote:You rested 6 times? However did you get to lvl 10 only fighting 6 spawns? Cheeter!Originally Posted by JackONight
Well, that was a fun read. Personally, I don't really see an issue with endurance. It tends to be much more forgiving than MP in most other MMORPs that I've played ... and there are many more ways to recover it (often instantly and repeatedly). I've been gone for a year or two, and I've really enjoyed my time back so far. I'm an altaholic, I have 62 characters, 43 of them are 30+, 5 of them have Stamina. The others do not feel gimped to me because of that. I rarely find myself needing to rest. I do NOT have remotely "optimal" builds for the most part, I generally rely on SOs or standard IOs. I regularly get complimented on my contributions to teams.
Oh, and awhile back someone mentioned that Build Up was a defining Blaster power ... my 3 /Dev Blasters would like to disagree. =D
Lastly just for fun I rolled a FF/Rad defender mostly out of curiosity. I leveled him to 10, it took me about two hours of play time running entirely solo. However, it's important to realize that I tried to simulate a "newbie" player as best that I could. I used no vet powers, or booster pack abilities. I ran missions rather than hunting, and I read every bit of mission story line, clues, etc. Though I did pretend that I didn't know to look at the information attached to some abilities, therefore I kept Sprint running the whole time not knowing that it was using end. At level 6 I chose Combat Jumping and ran it constantly as well. I had to actually rest about 6 times total. The rest of the time my natural recovery was enough, or I had insps to use ... or combine (they drop really often if you always keep a slot open.)
The time breakdown was as follows:
Outbreak - 7:06.0
Lvl 3 - 15:02.5 (Most of that time was spent running from place to place)
Lvl 4 - 25:45.9
Lvl 5 - 39.52.7
Lvl 6 - 53:39.0
Lvl 7 - 62:01.4
Lvl 8 - 77:36.2
Lvl 9 - 94:15.7
Lvl 10 - 120:06.3
If someone really wanted to level one quickly, I have no doubt that they could do much better.
I actually had a blast leveling this fella, though I'm a little miffed that I named him Neutron Guy and put him on Champion ... I'll have to remake him on Virtue with a better name. I do believe I'll focus on him once I'm done with the Dual Pistols / Dev Blaster I'm currently on. Thanks for the suggestion. -
Quote:Er what? So did you want to have (for example) defenders use less endurance for their attacks, but use more for their buffs/debuffs?Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I actually don't think simply universally increasing endurance would completely fix things, but it might help. There would still be a discrepancy between ATs, but people would not be running out as fast. This is why I suggested a "recalibration" instead of an increase. My thinking is that endurance use should be equalized somewhat and then raised universally.
Again, that's just my take on it.
For blasters, increase their damage to increase survivability?
Tanks to use less endurance for their attacks, and balance that out by making them less tough, or have less HP?
Scrappers.... Hell scrappers are perfect.
Controllers... use less end for their holds and such, but increase end usage for their buffs/debuffs?
Brutes, clearly need more end so that they can slot just damage in their attacks. That way, if they dont want to keep rushing around, they wont loose the whole bonus from fury. Balance by less hp and defence?
Stalkers... No idea here... More hp perhaps? Less end in their defences, attacks are fine?
MM's? Please refer to scrappers.
Doms, much more end, so they dont have to build for domination as much? Lessen the mag on their mez's?
Dont know, is that what you mean by balance? -
Quote:Giving everyone more end is not better balance. It is the exact same thing, the exact same game, but with more end. Of course, because there are many ways to maintain endurance, we dont need more end.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
My goal isn't to make the game easier, just better balanced for everyone, more versatile, and hopefully more in keeping with the source material.
If you have more end, you can fight longer without pausing, without making choices of whats more important, attacking, or surviving. mezzing or running. That makes the game easier, and less interesting. Less interesting for me, is not fun. This is not a side scroller, there are many different ways to play this game, you want everyone to play the same way. Playing the same way joe blow plays is not fun to me.
The wonderfull thing about conversations is they can go in many different directions. Of course, we always come back to endurance. So I guess it would still be topic related then no?Quote:Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This thread, of course, is only meant to be on the topic of improving endurance issues. -
Quote:Did they learn from their misconceptions? Did they realize that, oh yeah, thats kinda crazy talk. Look up Fire_Minded He kinda gives off the same vibe.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
None of this explains why there's an angry crowd with torches and pitchforks ready to burn him at the virtual stake. Other people have had silly notions about how this game should be. They were not tarred and feathered for it.
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Quote:I wasn't discourteuous to you either. I just assumed you had read the whole thread before wondering why everyone was disagreeing with Ultimo_.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
What makes you such a pariah? So far, of the people who don't like you, only one of them has even bothered to be courteous to me. And another one of them was just outright foaming-at-the-mouth insane. That makes me wonder exactly what's going on here.
Since I prefer to think for myself, and I don't remember seeing your posts before, and you've been relatively civil so far, I choose to treat you neutrally.
That insane guy though... uhm, yeeeeeah....
Of course, I also havent been discourteous to Ultimo_. I just cant get a straight answer out of him. he has made up his mind, and is not here to ask anything really, just to tell you what he wants, and why everyone else should want it as well. If he doesnt know how to make an argument, he ignores the question. Now maybe he believes what he is saying, fine. But when people try to help him, time and time again, and then he comes back and asks the same question.... I can understand why people get weary of it.
What is the issue? Is it that he doesnt have enough end? Well, there have been a myriad of suggestions on how to aleviate that problem. Is it that Defenders use more end to do the same damage? Well giving everyone more end wont solve that either. Is it that every toon doesnt have the exact same ability's, and that infringes on his fun? Well, maybe this game will never meet his expectations. Again, All characters are created equal. I dont pay a $20.00 a month sub to get some extra goodies, everyone has the exact same oportunities here. How is that NOT equality? -
Quote:So... If you give EVERYONE more endurance, won't defenders STILL do less damage per endurance?Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I said there was a problem because defenders have less damage per endurance when that topic was brought up in discussion. I didn't bring it up.
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Quote:Would a significant percentage of the game population still take a weakened stamina even if there were a global endurance reduction?Originally Posted by rsclark
Well, they could do a global end cost decrease and a stamina decrease. Average characters would stay the same. Pre-stamina would be less waiting around. End hogs (which might change from what they currently are in terms of AT/powerset) would need to consider slotting more end redux. And it opens up the opportunity for more characters to go without stamina.
If the answer is yes, then what does it change?
Heh, I like the dull as dirt powers at that level. You know why? Because I am slot hungry, I dont need to slot hurdle/swift and I wait to slot health until much later. Then I can put all those nifty slots into the more flashy and interesting powers.Quote:Originally Posted by rsclark
As it stands now, the problem isn't killing speed/what diff you can fight at so much as the fact that you get 3 dull as dirt powers right at the same time as your leveling speed starts slowing down. -
Quote:It was because people were gimping themselves. They would pick two defence sets and be unkillable, but they had no chance of clearing a spawn.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I've heard that, but I wasn't there so I can't say for sure why. I suspect it has to do with the power sets not being balanced enough in themselves, but it's just speculation.
So the dev's, realizing that common sense is not so common, designed the AT's to make it more difficult(Not impossible) to completely gimp yourself.
Not that that stops people from trying by ignoring such things as end recovery powers, and the like. -
I have yet to hear a single person say they would be willing to give up x to gain extra end.
I could get behind a always ready rest idea, but that will not solve the perceived issue of running out of endurance mid battle.
I am still not convinced that my low end game is unfun due to endurance issues.
Would a significant percentage of the game population still take stamina even if there were a global endurance buff? -
Quote:Kinda funny you say that. In coh beta, you could choose from any powers available, and they were not tied to AT's. It was also found to be a bad idea.
If I had been designing the game, and was required to use ATs, I wouldn't have tied powers to ATs. That way, anyone could have used any powers (as long as the powers themselves were balanced). -
Quote:You're no daisy! You're no daisy at all. Poor soul, you are just too high strung.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Right now they're calling up their buddies to come post against you to tip that balance. If they can't get a turn out, the next post will be noise about how the forums aren't an accurate sampling of all the players in the game, but that somehow these invisible, silent legions agree with them that there is no endurance problem in the game.
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Only one speaking about invisible silent legions is OP. -
Quote:Oh... why didnt he just say that from the begining?. Carry on.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Simple. Make every AT into a tankmage. Then there will be equality and Ultimo will be satisfied.