Scythus
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:So if Tyrant is really that evil, then very clearly it would make that much more sense to take him down.Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Short short recap of the other thread:
Tyrant 'Apologists': Well, maybe Tyrant won't be that bad a guy.
Other side: NO! He's absolutely EVIL! He's a mass murdering grand-child molester. Which is why it's perfectly acceptable for Heroes to immediately join what would, on Primal Earth, amount to a terrorist organization, topple the global government and FORCE democracy on the people of Praetoria, whether they admit they want it or not!
TA: But then the side switching mechanic makes no sense. There's no slippery slope of morality if Heroes are joining a force of pure evil.
OS: Well, maybe your hero is an idiot?
I'm only commenting that the theme these "heroic" redsiders keep chanting with "dark dogooders" challenging an "oppressive government" will be perfectly represented in Praetoria. Even more so that the Rogue Isles, as Recluse has this whole social Darwinism thing going on where those who are willing to backstab for power can get it and keep it. Tyrant, on the other hand, has the "My way or the highway" philosophy. -
Quote:Really? Then shouldn't the heroes be going over to fight the greater evil instead? Greater evil does, after all, imply greater threat.Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You must have missed that big thread a couple weeks ago. The one that finally decided that Heroes make more sense in the Isles than in Praetoria, as Recluse is actually the LESSER of two evils when compared to Tyrant.
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Quote:Something tells me that these "heroic" redsiders will just LUUURVE Praetoria then, because the morality will be a lot muddier over there.Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
As far as I can tell, the only thing that really can't be done Blue side is have a character who's heroically standing against an Evil government. Well, that and play Red-side content. I can't speak for anyone else here, but in the past when I've talked to folks with Heroic Redsiders, it's mostly because they can't see themselves as the bad guy. I can think of three people off the top of my head in that state, and my flaxen haired Forum foe of late doesn't count, as she doesn't roll any other characters.
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Quote:I am also curious.Originally Posted by Dispari
That's pretty much what I thought when you posted the "vs Scrappers" thing. In summary:
* You said DP is bad at soloing
* I said I have no issues soloing with lethal ammo
* You said "I guess I'm used to fire/archery"
* Someone said fire/archery are extremely powerful
* You said "Let's compare DP to Scappers then"
So what exactly WERE you going for, then? I'm curious now. -
Quote:I doubt anyone loses sleep over the PPPs because an Arachnos Mace is too Techy for their Natural. It's a hand held weapon and those Natural origin Wolf Spiders are always carrying them to start with.Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
I'm not sure that Mace automatically makes you tech either, but it seems like it would move you in the tech direction.
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Quote:Natural. Sure they have useful gadgets to make their escapades easier, but at the end of the day, if you strip them of all their gadgets, they're still going to kick your ***. Tony Stark on the other hand, has relied heavily on his Iron Man suit.Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
She's not too heavy on the sci fi, though I'm probably going to give her the medicine set, so she has two heals, and that's a little too modern for a midevil type character. My plans right now are to use fitness, jumping, stealth, and medicine as my pools. Her name is "Shoguness" (which I have reserved), so I'll be going for some kind of Japanese nobility theme I guess. (I get the Samuraii armor at the end of this month :-D ) I have the costume and everything. I just can't decide on the origin.
Basically, I'm trying to decide if the fact she uses technology for some things makes her more like the Arachnos Soldiers, or more like Iron Man. It's clear that a lot of her powers just come from her own training. I'm curious: what origin would you assign to Batman? Or James Bond? -
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've seen this style of hat in the hat options. Sure there's pirate hats, military hats, derbies, bowlers, tophats, and fedoras, but not a tricorne hat. With Dual Pistols out, I could imagine someone making a colonial inspired hero (Patriotic pistoleers anyone?) with such a hat.
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Quote:You laughed! See? You really are a villain after all.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
*edit* Actually... Even heroside my characters tend to aim to injure rather than risk the Medcomm system malfunctioning. Why?
Heh. -
Quote:Well, considering both Fire and Archery are crazy strong.....Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Of course, that's not to say Dual Pistols suck at solo play. They just don't solo WELL. Then again, my definition of "solo well" might not be entirely objective, since it's based around a Fire/Fire Blaster, an Archery/Devices Blaster and characters that aren't Blasters. It's quite possible my beef may be with the entire AT more so than with just Dual Pistols.
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Quote:They run in the Midnighter Club and Cimerora.Originally Posted by ThePill
Do they still run in the Rogue Isles? Because Mayhems are totally skippable. I thought most Isles citizens just kind of keep their head down and keep on walking.
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At the end of the day, the "heroic" villains still have citizens running away from them in terror.
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Quote:I remember that Darkwing Duck episode.Originally Posted by Blarg
I have a corrupter that is from a planet where literally EVERYONE is a hero. Everyone. It's a "Planet of Hats" if you will.
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Quote:I think Mr. Paladin is Villain-curious.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I like playing Heroes villainside. It's not perfect and I have to bend the stories a little to fit the characters, but it works well for me. The Chat window allows for the input of different ideas, stories, character roles, and even things the game doesn't normally allow.
With Going Rogue, however, I'll finally be able to have Heroes slipping between sides without a problem, fighting crime in the isles because it's the right thing to do.
Play your game. Don't make fun of people who play theirs. Lesson I learned the hard way.
-Rachel- -
Quote:That's what the bio has been for. I almost always put a civilian name in there. It's not perfect, but it allows for an input of a secret identity along with the super secret origin story regardless.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
No alternate name slots. Even as Mild Mannered "Tim Daly of Jamestown" you still have "SuperDudeMan" floating over your head.
-Rachel-
However, the profile info on the Going Rogue site makes me wonder if they're going to be improving that layout. You'll note they list things like secret identities with the other details like archetype and origin and powersets. -
Quote:Alternate costume slots. Booya.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Y'know. there's no Secret identities in the game, according to the code.
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Quote:It seems more like an allowance of a character development tool rather than Mr. Paladin schmoozing with blackguards.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Play the game the way you like, and let others play it their way. Then don't talk crap to them for doing it. Especially when it is something as small as how THEY view their character, AND when the Devs recognize this as a common view, and are putting a system in game (Side switching) to cover it.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
I don't think you are really listening to FunStuffOfDoom or myself. If you are then you are being purposely obtuse. We aren't saying that it HAS to have more damage. We are saying that it feels weak to us and it needs SOMETHING.
That something could be additional damage in any number of ways, be it through aim or a bit more spread throughout the set, or keeping the -res of piercing rounds regardless of what rounds are used, or switching the percentage of lethal to other damage when ammo is switched.
But it could be additional duration or strength of the cold and chemical rounds. Dispari's anecdote about stacking chemical is relevant, but really that applies to stacking anything -- it could have been 3 sonics to stack -resistance or 3 FF or cold defenders to cap defense, or 3 cold blasters to crush recharge and movement speed. Stacking anything in this game yields extraordinary results. Since the duration of pistols secondary effects are short and the animations long it's difficult to stack the effects just using one DP. You also don't get any secondary effects on the opening power, which is the fast activating one that WOULD allow you to easily stack some debuff.
So, once again and for the final time -- Is dual pistols unplayable? No.
Is it overpowered? No, not even close to being overpowered.
Could it be tweaked a little bit up and made better without being overpowered. Yes, I think so.I'm sorry, both of you, but it's still sounding like the same "we're saying this and not this even though both sound exactly the same."Quote:Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I edited your post a little. As I said, if you'd like to continue in such a vein, do so in a private message.
Ahem.
It seems to me that your basic complaint is something like the following. Please correct me if I have made an error in restating something.
Consider the number 12. It can be found by adding the numbers 1, 5, and 6, or 2, 3, and 7, or 4, 4, and 4, and many other combinations. However, while each combination yields the number 12, every combination uses different numbers to get there. So, in a combination uses a high value the other two values will be correspondingly lower. You understand, so far?
The claim 'I and my friends' made, is that powers in general follow a similar trend, and that Dual Pistols did not. So while Fire Blast might be 5, 5, and 1, and Assault Rifle might be 3, 5, and 4, we felt that whatever numbers Dual Pistols had, they added up to eleven. Or something. But less than twelve.
Fair enough. Too bad the flea guy still is.Quote:Enough evidence has been provided contrary to that statement that I am no longer arguing it.
And I still don't understand what "more" is suppose to be if it's not damage even though it very much sounds like what is being suggested. These, for example, make it clear that the arguments really are about damage.
Quote:That something could be additional damage in any number of ways The damage is average and the incendiary rounds actually bring more damage much like an AIM would. And last I checked on DP the slow and weaken effects of the latter two sets of rounds work just as much as any other slow or weaken I've seen in this game, so it must be damage you're referring to.Quote:strength of the cold and chemical rounds.
Ergo, this opening comment...
...makes it all contradictory and a logic loop.Quote:We aren't saying that it HAS to have more damage. -
Quote:There's a City of Heroes just over there where you play heroes and not villains.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Say it is a PnP game. And the DM decides he wants to run an all Evil campaign. And I tell him I don't want to play in it because I'm not comfortable being an evil character. Either he'll back down from his idea because, as a friend, he doesn't want to exclude me from the game -or- he'll tell me not to show up for the next session.
Either way the analogy doesn't QUITE fit. Since the players I play with generally prefer the hero in the isles style as well. So it's really more like the Midnight campaign setting for 3rd edition. If you haven't heard of it you should look into it! It's a lot of fun in a strange, light in the darkness way.
And in any case, Going Rogue will be bringing darker heroes who will be taking the fight directly to the Rogue Isles. There will also be lighter villains with a conscience who can perform heroics in Paragon City. There will also be complete face heel and heel face turns.
Otherwise you're just the oddball self-proclaimed paladin in a party of blackguards. -
Quote:I have read them. They're still not clear and still sound contradictory. You were asking for an "equalness," describing some nebulous XYZ for every set and we argued that XYZ are there as close they can get but you and your friends were like "needs more damage to make XYZ" and absurdly stating that average damage was not good enough for XYZ despite all the other utility and this is where you keep confusing me because it just sounds like a big contradictory logic loop.Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
For the love of God, man, do you read my posts except to extract parts of them for further argumentation? I conceded seven hours ago. We've both since posted. Currently, the argument has consisted of clarification of several arguments I used, and a critique of pragmatic views as applied to balance.
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Quote:But we've already established that that's precisely how most of the sets already are, including DP. Its damage is pretty average, but it has a very unique utility of being able to change its secondary effects and Dispari has already written an example of how well DP does that. You seem to want it to do more damage which might have the potential of making it overpowered. The damage is already average for blast sets, why does it need to be any higher?Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
That's not what I meant by equality. Bionic_Flea summed up my position best when he said:
We're trying to tell you that damage does not solely matter. Its the secondary effects that also give you an edge in combat. Despite all of your protests it just keeps sounding like you want the set to be damage-centric like Fire Blast is. -
Quote:The way I understand Technology, it represents robots, cyborgs, and Tony Stark. Natural, on the other hand involves personal training and fitness. So what is he? Some sort of robo-ninja-master that shoots poison from his super suit, or is he a trained assassin who pokes enemies with poisonous needles and darts?Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
Suppose I'm making a poisoning MM (Ninjas/Poison) who is considered to be using poisons that she has either made or purchased. Would that make her natural or tech? I can't decide!!!!!!
I mean, poison making is a technology, right?
I just can't seem to draw a clear line between technology and natural. Arachnos Soldiers are considered natural, even though some of them use those crab backpacks. Maybe I should be asking this on another thread? -
Quote:I think the way Sam and Poptart (and myself) see it is that say it is a PnP tabletop RPG. Now let's say your GM has decided to put together an evil campaign where the PCs will be villains, or at the very least mercs that sit somewhere on the fence. Are you going to be the odd one to defy the GM's setting by making the single Lawful Good Paladin in a party of merciless cutthroats?Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Really? Have you ever played a Role Playing game beyond a computerized one? Hey, ever read a book? Some very popular characters ( Drizzt Do'urden comes to mind, Kyler from the Night Angel books) are good people in an evil society. I think it takes more imagination to play against the set norm, than to be a conformist to someone else story. The Devs even understand this, and are giving us a method to play it out in their sandbox.
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Quote:So pretty much you're screwed in that mission without a Controller. Good to know.Originally Posted by SwellGuy
The same thing happens with the Vampyrii sarcophogi (sp?) in the Striga mission.
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Quote:I suppose it's randomized.Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
I'd never heard of this before and went to check it out. But I see a Coralax Green Hybrid (not Red) who isn't drinking tea, it's writing on a clipboard
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Quote:I can change whatever type of ammo I have at ANY time. Fire for raw damage. Lethal for knockback. Ice for slow. Toxic for weakening the target. No other set can do this! It's at the median for damage and trades up high, absurd damage for versatility.Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
For the upteenth time, to what benefit?
I take from this...
...that all you want is damage, damage, damage and forget about being able to change secondary effects. Forget about secondary effects completely. So clearly you should just go and play your Fire Blast, as it's clear as the only serious damage dealing set that will satisfy you. Avoid all the others, because they're either too weak being lethal damage or full of secondary effects.Quote:Fine, with incendiary ammunition, a DP character is average at single target damage. However, this only lasts as long as the refuse to change ammo types. Since the recurring point is that ammo-changing provides utility to render the set balanced, 'twould stand to reason that an inability to change ammo types ('cause you're keeping it locked on incendiary to be decent at ST, remember.) removes that utility, and thus unbalances the set.