Rylas
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Let me pick your brain a little here, if I may. What would you consider being a better IO investment. I've considered Def for S/L, but all the resistance Bio is capable of makes me wonder if it's all that necessary. Maybe a little bit of defense to soft-cap E/N. Then I thought about Recharge being the main focus along with Accuracy bonuses. Having Ablative up more often does sound pretty powerful. Any way I go sounds good. Any thoughts?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My next tanker is likely to be Bio/Staff as soon as Bio goes live. I think that combo will be strong from the start and will keep getting better. It won't be as strong against debuffs as SR or Energy, but it will probably excel in all the places Willpower excels while scaling better with recharge buffs. -
Quote:What about adding lasers on their heads?Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
My answer was "Having more people playing them," but I might like Arcana's better at this point.
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Quote:If you like that, you should see the thread he started in the Brute forums. Give him two internets.Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
You were so stressed out at the thought, you had to check with a dev to make sure Brutes weren't going to be touched! Once you found out they weren't, you came back with a very vindictive snark. Nice. You win an internet!
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Quote:What he's not pointing out is that if you're using all those forms to your advantage, you're not going to notice those "holes". Take an alpha with Defensive. When the burst damage has normalized, use Efficient. When you've wittled down the mobs some, use Offensive.Originally Posted by LowbrowDeluxe
Ahhh, that's the part I was missing in my first quick glance at it. Yeah, that pretty well changes everything.
And calling a lack of Res for exotics outside of Defensive a "hole" is like saying Ice Armor has whole to S/L/E/N.
Besides, anything that can solo +2/x6 CoT on SOs, can't have it that bad off. -
Quote:True, this will depend on what groups you plan on fighting most of the time. In a place like the ITF, it will be nice. In groups like Council, CoT and Tsoo, not quite as much. No matter what though, the power will be incredibly useful.Originally Posted by Starsman
You may be selling it short.
There are a lot of lethal attacks in the game (swords and bullets are for the most part purely lethal, with few exceptions.)
In addition, there are likely to be many attacks that are pure smashing that will be covered by GS melee defense bonus. -
Quote:Don't let it scare you either. It's not over powered, it has holes, and it's not capable of surpassing /Fire. It's good though, and the cries of nerfing it to hell were just a knee jerk reaction to some needed tweaks.Originally Posted by LowbrowDeluxe
That scares me. With -res I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass /fire for damage, and that's with no? holes in it's resists and an entire toy chest of a tool box.
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I'm also going to toss my vote in for Bio/Staff. You'll probably never find a better combo for on-demand fine tuning. Having dabbled with the combo as a Brute, I can say there is a lot of good synergy.
One note about Guarded Spin: Unless you're running into situations where you going to get hit by PURE LETHAL, you'll probably not notice a lot of survival boost. And really, you won't need it. And that means the attack can't be flagged for anything other than Lethal. The reason for that being is that your defense to everything else will be so high, unless you run around with GS constantly triple stacked, those attacks won't check to your lethal defense. Also, with the amount of ridonkulous S/L resist you'll have as a tank, you won't be that worried about it anyway.
But GS is great for the AoE in and of istelf, and when you want to proc heals or damage from it, it's going to be very helpful. -
Quote:Just so you know, any reports you've heard of nerfing were probably greatly exaggerated.Originally Posted by LowbrowDeluxe
Looking at the pre-nerf version in mids,
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Quote:Oh, I didn't assume that. I'm somewhat aware of your stance on things (I think). I know you're just telling people to be careful what they wish for.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You assume I'm actually remotely concerned about the consequences of promoting this topic. Actually, if I was in charge I would have done it years ago and taken the heat for it gladly. So by all means, continue.
I'm fine with swallowing the medicine I'm handed. I won't lie, I kicked and screamed when ED hit, but I'd like to think I'm a little wiser now. If a bitter pill is what we're handed, I'll just go with it. But I understand that not everyone is up for that. -
Quote:I smell what yer steppin' in.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Don't say I didn't provide fair warning. There is only one solution to the issue of saturation buffing creating imbalances at the caps. One. And once the devs decide its necessarily, it will no longer matter if its unpalatable.
When I say "the easiest solution with the best results," I mean the easiest to implement into the game. I would guess that the easiest way would probably be only touching one AT.
I just also believe in letting everyone say their piece and not wailing and gnashing teeth because you (generic) don't like what they said. But it's the forums, so I should just expect it. -
Quote:I only said it was a suggestion worth listening to, not acting upon. Frankly, I don't know what the right answer will be, but keeping an open mind and considering all options is always ideal. In the end, I would hope it's the easiest solution that gets the best results is that one that is used.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Discussing saturation buffing is opening Pandora's box.
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Quote:Staff is a pretty good pairing. It's the ultimate fine-tuner combo. You can adjust to more situations more easily. Need more recharge here and more recovery? Turn on these toggles. Want more endurance discount and higher damage? Turn on those toggles. Want more damage and more damage? Well there's toggles for that, too!Originally Posted by Chyll
I thought about Staff, but thought it may look awkward...
Very fun combo. -
Quote:I think the suggestions that we're discussing do just that. More particularly ClawsandEffect's Suggestion is pretty spot on to what you're saying. Though Planet_J insinuates people have asked all Melee's to be nerfed but tanks, the suggestion would actually buff normal gameplay for tanks and then only balance brutes in the outlier areas. And even that balancing wouldn't be that noticeable. Scrappers and Stalkers would be buffed in the outlier areas.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I would say then that work should also be done on improving tanks.
A decrease of brutes alone wouldn't really solve the issues that some see with Tanks. -
Quote:ED took place before CoV launched, so if I a Kin was able to get me to the cap, then it was possible after ED. Now, Kin buffs on Corrs we're tweaked down, so I'm sure that's greatly changed since then. As it stands, a Corr can get you to 400% percent for 15 seconds every 30 secs. So, half the time. You mentioned double-stacked rage, so that's another 160%. If you have Fury at 80%, which isn't hard to do, then that's another 160%. Bringing the total to 720%.Originally Posted by planet_J
Not since ED I team with an elec/kin corruptor in my SG regularly...no damage cap for me..and I double stack rage.
So yes, your brute you just mentioned can be kept at the damage cap half the time by a Kin Corr. -
Quote:I'm telling you one Kin can put a Brute at the cap. It may take more then one appliance of FS, but on SOs, a Kin can keep them there. Now, I'll admit, it's been some time since I've done that, but this took place when the Brute cap was higher.Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Nobody's making that claim as far as I can tell. They're making the claim that people don't run around at max potential -- especially Brutes, who can't ordinarily be capped even Fulcrum Shift. In fact, the claim is largely the opposite -- that Brutes have a higher maximum potential precisely because they have such low base ratios.
Brutes' low ratios are offset by Fury. And in non-extreme situations that's all equal and good. But what's being brought up as a point of contention is situations where lots of buffing is going on, like in iTrials. People want to see that more normalized, and I don't think they're out of order in requesting that. It deserves fair listening to, and while I don't really care if Tanks get a buff or not, I think we should be considering all fair requests. -
Easy set of for testing the balance of Damage-to-Survival between two ATs:
Take one brute and one tank of a mirrored build. Exclude use of sets that don't match powers up completely (such as Fire Melee which has different attacks for different ATs). Take them to the test server.
Make an AE mission that has hard to kill mobs. Maybe Electric Armor bosses and Lts (exclude Lightning Field and Power Sink so they can't end drain anyone). Give them Fire Melee because it doesn't carry debuffs and can't change performance for either character. Give them the best attacks or all the attacks of that melee set. This mission should be somewhat lengthy.
If Electric Armor is what is chosen for the mobs, then I would suggest Electric Melee as the sets for the Tank and Brute. Thus increasing the difficulty of killing the mobs.
Now, on the test server the Paragon Market is free. So buy a crap ton of Acc/Dam Inspirations and a crap ton of Def/Res inspirations. And then buy a crap ton more on top of that. Step into the mission and max out your numbers for Acc/Dam/Res/Def and begin timing how long it takes to complete the mission.
If the claim that Tankers' and Brutes' max potentials are balanced with each other is true, times for completion should be very, very close.
Any buffing or debuffing of recharge should be greatly avoided.
[edit] Use of temp Rez powers might be okay, but should probably come with a penalty to the clock. But at maxed numbers, I doubt either person will need them. -
Quote:Can you define what you mean by gimped? Because I'd still gladly take my SS/Elec brute into iTrials, even with only 85% resists.Originally Posted by planet_J
No, actually, I like my FA brute being able to shunt all but 10% damage from fire...Elec Armor would be even more gimped as Energy damage is extremely common these days.
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Quote:DerpOriginally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Technically it's a 400% cap (which is 300% above base damage), but you knew that.
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Quote:Actually, with the cap being only 300% and Enhancements getting you a lot of the way there, there are a few Sets and Set Combos that allow to ride that spot quite a bit.Originally Posted by planet_J
Even though no tank can get to the damage cap realistically without serious help, and we know you guys typically cap several resistance types...
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Quote:And why MUST we "nerf" everyone? First we're talking about balancing, not nerfing. And two, we're talking about Brutes, not everyone. Inflating someone's words so you can then point out errors is called strawman tactics. They're not considered valid arguments.Originally Posted by planet_J
Unless you want to nerf EATs also...
While we're nerfing Brutes and EATs let's nerf scrappers
Since we nerfed scrappers, let's look at Stalkers,
It's like saying you oppose women getting the right to vote because then we'd have to let dogs vote. Then saying anyone that wants women to vote wants to also let dogs vote. (this is just an analogy, so don't turn this into a political tangent, I only use it because no one here would deny anyone that right).
Saying you want to balance the ATs into being more evenly spaced apart along both the damage curve and the defense curve isn't a call to "nerf" anyone, let alone all ATs.
[edit]I'd like to clarify that the above analogy is using the generic "you". Not the specific "you". -
Quote:Back in the days when IOs weren't even a topic, I used to run an SS brute with a Kin friend. He was more than sufficient at keeping me at the damage cap all by himself. And the damage cap was higher back then.Originally Posted by planet_J
For damage buffs to get a brute to the cap, you're talking about... multiples of Accelerated Metabolism + Painbringer + Fulcrum Shift...and I am not even sure that would get you all the way...even with 100% damage slotting and 100% Fury...you'd be less than that...STILL! Brutes can't even outdo scrapper damage at those levels with equal buffs AND Fury.
And no ones talking about brutes outdoing Scrappers. Were just talking about about Brutes and Tanks. -
Now I kinda wish I could go to the Playhouse....
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Quote:And it's still manageable if you go from 90% to 85%. If you're going to complain about farmers, I'm not sure the devs are worried about that.Originally Posted by planet_J
How much difference is 2.5% Defense? A LOT...just saying. 5% Resistance is equivalent.
When ED hit, no one thought that. They do now. If they were to look back at evenly spacing out the damage/survival scale of the melee ATs, I'm sure the reasonable ones would think it was a good thing, too.Quote:ED brought us set bonuses, and was under an old regime, looking back I think everyone agrees it totally nerfed some powersets, a few more than others...(regen)...but it was generally a good thing.
We're talking about at their potential levels of damage and survival. That's the imbalance. Max the survival numbers and the damage numbers out, and the differences are much wider on damage than survival. That's what people have asked to balance, so it's not an outrageous request to have it looked at.Quote:Ok, brutes are 25% lower on all survival base modifiers than tanks (with the exception of HP being 10%)...tanks are about 25% less damage now...where are the current issues with damage? This is only about Johnny's crusade. Where's Pontius Pilate so we can get the AT martyr act overwith?
Again, objectively, the max numbers are much more unbalanced.Quote:No, it isn't because if you look objectively at the numbers...
I once thought the same as you. I only looked at the base numbers and SO performance. But on large teams where things begin to approach max numbers, I realized there was a disparity there that was more than it should be. That's being objective. -
Quote:Looking at the suggestion as making the ATs closer and closer is seeing it wrong. What many people are suggesting is more of an inversion chart. As you approach damage on this straight line, your survival goes down equally. Or, in a more balanced relationship. It doesn't draw the ATs closer together, it's spacing them more evenly apart on both aspects.Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I hope the devs aren't swayed by these flawed and biased arguments, becuase it would simply move all the at's closer and closer together, until there really wouldn't be a point to having different melee at's. Again, if you want to do more damage, roll a scrapper or brute, they're both really good at it. If you want to be king of aggro and survivability, roll a tank. I've got multiple 50s of all the melee at's, and with the recent buffs to stalkers and the not so recent but certainly not ancient buff to tanks, I'd say they're all as balanced as they're going to get.
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Quote:And if 5% is going to completely gimp them, I'd be surprised. And before you jump to conclusions, my main is an SS/Elec brute. I'll probably keep him as my main until the servers shut down. And really, I'll be ok.Originally Posted by planet_J
Fire and elec...the 2 most common farmers anyone uses...
There was an outcry of the unholiest of orders when ED was brought into the game, and yet here we are. Outcries happen when people see balance come around.Quote:Just saying...it would never happen...heads would roll the outcry would be so incredible.
I've already stated that I think Tank damage is fine. But if you really think that balancing between ATs is inappropriate, then you clearly don't understand balance. There's nothing outrageous about making tanker damage compare to brute damage in the way that brute survival compares to tanker survival.Quote:Brutes are fine...leave them be...fix tanks according to their issues, not according to other AT's.
As I just pointed out, my main is a Brute. If the lawn I'm looking at is my own and I say my lawn's a little greener than yours, is that ok?Quote:Stop looking over the fence and saying the grass is greener...look at your own lawn and kill the grubs under the garden...pluck a few weeds and call it good.