Reverb

Thank you, thank you, and again, thank you. I really love this game (I have 28 characters after all) and wanted to go on loving it as well as the CoV expansion later this year. You have my gratitude for restoring my faith in the future direction of this game. My dual subscriptions (me and the kids) are secured. I will try not to be such a doubting Thomas going forward. The thoroughness of the content of your response took me by surprise. Excellent response to the issue. Thanks again.

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(I put the "Duh" thing in there becaus Kam called me selfish for saying I liked the changes, figured if he could dish it out he could take it)

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Side note - that looks to have been Reverb, not me. My first post on this topic (although not this thread) was the statistical one. I prefer to lay out facts, not insult other posters...

Kam

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Yes, it was me. And I apologize for responding as I did initially. It's just that in following this thread I've gotten so very tired of some of the pro-boss-buffers advancing arguments that are either so clearly and utterly bogus from the get go or compeltely slanted from their position as one of the favored AT/powerset combos as to why the change is no big deal in the first place.

The "I got mine and nothing else really matters" point of view.

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Maybe that was the thinking behind the respec? Get an endurance draining power?
Duh DUH

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And maybe most powersets don't HAVE an endurance draining power available to choose. Perhaps you should check things like that out before you set fingers to keyboard and write something so ill informed and self serving. Duh DUH.



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Maybe most powersets DO have a power that drains endurance whether it be primary or secondary.

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Please do enlighten me on the majority of powersets that DO have endurance drain. Before you do you might want to read Kamaenda's post that pretty much outlined it statistically. You are simply flat out wrong. So again, check it out before you state something so clearly wrong and unsupported and then insult people with your arrogant "Duh DUH". Or else just stay under the bridge in the first place.

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Maybe that was the thinking behind the respec? Get an endurance draining power?
Duh DUH

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And maybe most powersets don't HAVE an endurance draining power available to choose. Perhaps you should check things like that out before you set fingers to keyboard and write something so ill informed and self serving. Duh DUH.

And if we were ALL playing elec/eng blasters that would be just wonderful. Glad it's working out for you.

Wasn't there an Eagles song that said the saddest words in the world were "I got mine."

I will now don my flame retardent suit and say several Hail Mary's in advance to atone for the heresy I am about to utter.

In my more cynical moments I actually wonder if what has happened overall with CoH is that they set out to make a game with a bold creative vision: an untapped genre, an extremely flexible character generator, accessibility in that you didn't need special items to succeed and could get into the game right away, and a game that would support BOTH team play and soloing. There are enough direct quotes from Statesman in interviews and such to establish that was one of their goals, not to mention all the reviews, hype, and promotion in that direction. And they more or less succeeded, initially better than they knew. I think a portion of their breakneck ramp up in numbers of subscribers was due to this overall unique take on MMO's.

The game had some flaws that needed to be worked out. It does, apparently, break down for team play in the higher levels, becoming too easy for competent teams. Adjustments needed to be made. But it's at this point that the heresy comes in.

I can't help but wonder if having gotten through that burst of creativity they look over their creation and have a combination of "Okay, how do we fix this?" combined with "Well, where do we go from here?" And the unfortunate answer that was spoken was "Well, what are the other MMO's doing?"

And so we move to a new explicit emphasis on teaming, just like every other MMO. New areas to explore and new bad guys, while more than welcome, aren't any different concept-wise than other MMOs, they all do that. Higher and higher classes/levels aren't different from other MMOs, they all do that too. Granted, CoH has the genre spin of the comic universe but conceptually, fundamentally, that by itself is not different from the competition, just a different theme.

Mind you, I like new content just as much as the next guy and any sort of game like this needs that to stay fresh. That's not my point. My fear sometimes, just sometimes, is that having established this beachhead in unique MMO territory (group AND solo), with no real maps for direction, no examples in the field to draw from , is that the trailblazers have lost their way and are falling back on the tried and true, the conventional wisdom (MMO's are about grouping, ya dummy!) and are going to pack up the boats and withdraw from the beachhead rather than continue to explore the Undiscovered Country.

(now zipping up the faceplate on the flame retardant suit)

Is it that any two people can take on that 6+ mission or that those two specific archetype/powersets can take it on? Or some two specific AT powerset combos but not others? Because if it's the latter two then making a change that affects the whole of the game and all archetypes indiscriminently is not the best solution. A little like taking a hammer to stick in a pin.

Maybe the best solution would be to take a look at how missions are scaled and not have it hinge on just the number of players but take into account the AT combinations entering, along with numbers, and adjust accordingly.

Granted, not as easy as a simple upgrade across the board to bosses. But probably more appropriate and less risky in the long run in terms of player base reaction. Methinks the boss buff was too coarse a tool for the actual remedy desired. And not just for the consequences to the soloists. There have been team complaints here as well, ie: some of the trials and TF's, especially the first respec and some of the DE stuff.

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Most AT's can no longer solo a good deal of the missions


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Bull

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A large proportion of those players who have enjoyed soloing, if the boss buff is left in, will no longer be able to do so.

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Again Bull

The new bosses are still soloable by almost every power set of every AT with the correct power selection and tactics. The only real concern is the lucky one hit that can put many AT’s in the hospital

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Bull, back atcha.

This thread is replete with concerns that while Tankers and Scrappers seem to have little problem with the buffed bosses, Controllers (outside of a few selected powersets), Defenders, and Blasters generally have a great deal of difficulty. So unless you've played all these powersets yourself and can say with authority it's not a problem, your statement is the one unsupported. It's pure speculation on your part flying in the face of the vast majority of posts on this subject, both in this thread and others in the forums.

I am a very tactical player, making careful plans in both missions and street sweeping. My main is a heavily SO slotted blaster. I can still take on an orange conn boss (other than melee freaks in an office due to rezz) using many inspirations. But I have NO chance to take on a red. I simply can't damage them fast enough, long enough to take them out before they can lay me flat and I'm not talking about single shotting.

The combination of the increases to their hit points, their resistances/defense, their regeneration and, most importantly, their damage output, is just to high to jump over. They hit multiples harder than I can, heal faster, and take forever to damage. A loaded alpha snipe that once would take them down by a quarter to a third now takes them down MAYBE ten percent, prehaps less. Using twin beanbags for disorient to minimize their damage output, I'm still cycling through my available attacks close to ten times before being layed out in defeat. I'm carrying 15 slots of inspiration and burn through them in the process.

Perhaps if the big increase were just to their hit points or hit points and defenses they would be doable, but tedious. Running away and reloading those inspriation slots and going again doesn't help, they've nearly fully regenerated before I can get back to them.

So please, unless and until you've personally run these now solo nerfed archetypes, it is apparent from personal experience and the anecdotes of others in this thread that when you make such a bull excrement statement such as that that you simply don't know what the hell you are talking about. And yet you want to say it so confidently despite your utter lack of any support other than your own sheer speculation.

Following these back and forth exchanges I sometimes get the impression that what your argument really boils down to is "I got mine, jump off! Don't bother me with your concerns. Don't do anything to endanger what I wanted."

We're not asking for 100% solo, that's a strawman. We're asking to maintain a level of soloing the game supported from launch until now with this one issue in I3. It's part of what brought us to this game, it is part of what would drive us away if gone.

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Teaming wasn't broken before, and this is not a fix to it.


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People routinely solo missions spawned for 6+ players. How can that not be broken? If one person can do is alone what challange does it offer a team of 6?

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Okay, PUH-lease. That one was just bunk. One person is not doing what a team of six does. The missions are, and always have been, scaled for the number of people going in the door. The numbers a team of six encounters in a mission are WAY higher than what a single is doing and so the one is not accomplishing what the team of six does outside of a relative comparison. That's the whole point of the scaling. The one DOES accomplish the mission with a number of mobs appropriate to one hero, the team accomplishes the mission with a commensurate greater number of mobs appropriate to whatever team size goes in so that the mission remains challenging for the greater number entering. Effectively, in terms of absolute numbers and types, proportions of mobs faced, it is two different misisons. The two are in no way directly equivalent. Give me a break.

You seem to be a little selective in your Statesman quotes yourself. I'll repeat this one for your benefit:

"I think every Archetype should be able to solo. The reason doesn't matter - just 'cause you're soloing doesn't mean that you should be prevented from enjoying the game."-Statesman-

Street sweeping is not fun for most soloists for any appreciable length of time. It's repetitive, without story content, and therefore not enjoyable as the main solo available activity.

Most AT's can no longer solo a good deal of the missions. Before they could. That wasn't their doing, it was the devs, purposely or not, it was the game we've been playing for the better part of a year now. It wasn't appropriated by the soloists, they didn't go into Cryptic offices and put guns to the developers head. It was de facto the game the developers made. They have now radically changed the proportions of what can be soloed and what is exclusively team play.

A large proportion of those players who have enjoyed soloing, if the boss buff is left in, will no longer be able to do so. They are expressing the opinion that there had to be other options available for making group play more rewarding that didn't come at the expense of what the solo players were enjoying. If they can't get this issue redressed, they will ultimately leave in dissatisfaction with the game. This, undoubtedly, would make you and others happy but I'm not so sure it will make Cryptic and NCSoft as happy as I suspect there are a lot more of us than you would be comfortable acknowledging. A reduced revenue stream means reduced resources for further development and content additions and the number of servers running.

I haven't visited the forums all that often so I can't really say with any authority but I haven't seen the page total climb on a thread like this since the Marvel lawsuit thread started. It's a hot topic. Be a shame for Cryptic to find out the numbers of soloists here the hard way, by a big decrease in subscription. That would be a hard lesson to learn.

I think one of the most important metrics to know for this discussion would be just how many mission doors are opened by singles, duos, and parties of three or more, pre I3 and post I3 a couple of weeks from now. It might give something (though not dead accurate without other metrics) the proportion of soloists in the game and the subscriber vulnerability to this issue. I suspect Statesman has some data somewhere available as even he has acknowledged the need to redress aspects of this issue and is working on something to satisfy both sides (his last post to this thread).

I suppose what it really comes down to, from a business perspective, is what are the main selling points of this game in comparison to other MMO's. Because really, from NCSoft's point at least, that's what really matters. I think the genre is one, the graphics quality, the character creation tool. But you are either stubborn or naive if you don't count all the press about solo-friendly and the promotion of that feature. If I was NCSoft, hell, if I was Cryptic, that's an item I would want to know right now. How important to CoH commercial viability are the solo-friendly features that HAVE been there. If it's small, then who cares, anything we give the solo crowd is gravy. If it's significant (and it doesn't have to be over 30% to be more than significant, then I'd be worried if I cut that group off. In most businessees you have to have a good answer for why you chopped off 30% of your revenue stream. Is CoH different enough from other MMOGs without that solo friendly aspect to survive in what has been described as a near saturated market? Maybe so, maybe not.

There's the bototm line reality of this team versus solo play/content argument. Aside from your insistence it's a zero-sum equation when there's no reason it has to be.

Someone posted this early in the thread but you might want to keep this in mind as the argument wages on:

"I think every Archetype should be able to solo. The reason doesn't matter - just 'cause you're soloing doesn't mean that you should be prevented from enjoying the game."-Statesman-

My quick Chandler impression: "Could you BE more smug?"

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You go dude. I am a casual player and a soloist 80+% of the time and I love the changes. My Ice/FF Controller plays in Unyielding and having a blast....

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Glad that's working out for you there. As one of the AT builds that everyone has been saying has no problem with the boss buff changes you are in an enviable position. If we all wanted to play cookie-cutters we could all have the same dozen or so builds and wouldn't that be lovely and diverse.

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As for those who think they should be able to play without strategy, well that is again the problem with the debt system.......
There is a lot of strategy possible in this game but if they make it too easy there is no point to strategy it just becomes brute force with little point........I want to be a hero but "without all that messy thinking" just don't cut it.

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There seems to be an assumption in play here that those of us who are complaining are doing so because we just want to be able to go toe to toe with all baddies we encounter and succeed, strategy be damned. Nice easy explanation anyway. Except it's bunk.

Whether playing FPS, RPG, or MMOG I have always placed an emphasis on strategy. I'm constantly chastising other players I know for doing the mad dog rush into the fray. You're right, there are plenty of opportunities for strategy in this game and I enjoy that a great deal. And I like it when I encounter something that presents a change, a challenge that makes me puzzle it out or mix things up.

My main is a lvl 26 auto/elec blaster significantly SO slotted. I never run around corners, I edge around and scope out what's ahead. I listen to the speakers for audio clues for what's ahead (feak juicers anyone?). If I encounter a clot of mobs I plan out how I will strip them out before my first shot is fired, who to pull, wait for the "sentry walker" to get isolated, who to neutralize (beanbags are fun), what angle to come from for best pick offs, etc. If I encounter a boss surrounded by lt's or minions I work to strip them off before going after the boss himself. If the boss isn't necessary to completion of the mission I will avoid him if possible and I don't think I can take him. Encountered a red boss post I3 in an office hallway I had to get through and learned that a Skyraider jumpbot, after enough damage, runs for a bit. So ate inspirations and some damage till he ran and then went through the hallway and ignored him for anything further. Believe me, I strategize and use tactics.

But sometimes you can't ignore or avoid the bosses. Post I3, if the boss conns orange I can still usually take him if I have enough inspirations on hand and he's not a rezzing Freakshow. But if they're red, and I have to take them to complete the mission (which is more often than not), then I might as well call ahead for the ambulance to come pick up the pieces of my rear that will be left when the boss is done mopping up the floor with me. I simply won't have the endurance (and I have the Stamina power slotted), the damage output, or enough healing insp to last him out. The combination of the increases to bosses HP, plus regeneration, plus damage output is just too overwhelming. Not a chance. And I've even got a pair of beanbag powers (1 temp) to stun him from time to time but that, of course, uses some of the endurance and doesn't last all that long against the buffed bosses.

So to complete such a mission I have to give a call out and beg a scrapper/tanker/specific controller to come in and help me finish the mission. And the good samaritan who responds doesn't even need me to help (tho I do) because it's more than apparent they can finish him off very nicely and in short order without any of my help at all, thank you very much. Wheeeee, how fun and how heroic.

Had a mission last night, the mission text gave no warning about any bosses or need to bring friends. It had two orange conn (died once, used half dozen or so insp on each take down) and two red conn bosses not counting the expected boss at the end room (red) (story arc mission). Simply suicide solo.

Statesman himself has made the comment that his core consideration for this game is fun, and that he intended it to be fun for the solo player as well as the team player. The roadblocks represented by those multiple red bosses was not fun.

So enough of this dreck about how the rest of us are just whining because we can't run around in god mode like we used to (when was that exactly?) or don't know how to use tactics or strategize. It's an arrogant assumption, it's smug, it's insulting and you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Moridin, I think part of the point in saying that the missions are solo content is that given the nature of the dynamic in teams you do not really get to take the time to read and appreciate the story content becasue most teams operate on a go-Go-GO! basis and aren't going to wait around while you read and savor the "content". And the text of that content changes to a summary once the mission is over and you return to contact. If it stays at all (doesn't often in one offs).

Then there is also the fact that in teaming you are not following through just one person's story arc, but whatever mission the team goes after in sequence. Consequently you may wind up doing the same mission multiple times, or if you team a lot, outlevel your own contacts to where you are no longer offered any more missions from that contact, ie: miss out on the game story content available from that contact, presumably including story arcs.

So in that sense, yes, the game content is effectively solo content. More likely to be accessed and appreciated solo.

Major difference _iLr_. The developers, in managing their hero (the game design/software), aren't paying $15 a month for the experience, we are. And perhaps to them it is not a business but you'd better believe that to Cryptic's and NCSoft's bottom line it is. NCSoft and/or Cryptic didn't pay for the development, promotion and distribution of the game primarily as a work of art (though I think in some ways it is artful and the devs are passionate about it), the suits paid for the existence of this game as a revenue generating proposition and if a specific change threatens to alienate and lose a significant portion of subscribers, they will care more for that than any artistic sensibilities.

All we are saying, fundamentally, is there used to be a meaningful choice for either soloing or grouping in the game and now with the boss buff there isn't. The slider gives your play preference a choice to toughen things up but many of us who like to frequently solo no longer have a choice. To continue we HAVE to group whether it fits our RL logistics or preferences or not. That's the source of the beef. Let both sides have the choice to play as they will.

If I can hazard an answer. Because there's the manual and the guide.

And then there's the way the game was promoted, reviewed, hyped, and most importantly for those that have been paying their money and playing for the last nine months since launch, the way the game has been playing prior to I3.

The game was promoted as solo friendly, it was part of what reviews hyped as original and different about the game and prior to I3 was supported enough to keep those who prefer soloing or a mixed playstyle satisfied.

As to the "Why are you here?", I think that roughly translates to "Why do insist on playing solo in an MMOG for cryin' out loud?" I think that's the argument she was saying is obnoxious. There have been enough very well articulated explanations for the solo or mixed (team when I wanna, solo when I wanna) playstyle posted in this thread that asking that question should be entirely unnecessary at this point.

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The fact is: The game (and Bosses) get very easy for most AT's post 30. Once Conbtrollers have their pets, they do just fine. Sorry, but I don't think you can state that only the casual players are left. hell, every night, 4 of the 11 servers are in the yellow Post I3, when previously they were all in the green. Don't know about you, but with 1.5 weeks having passed, and the server load increasing, I would say most players are enjoying the changes, and have RETURNED to playing the game again.

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Armsman, firstly, there are a multitude of reasons why the servers have gone yellow again for the time being:
To check out I3, the new content, tanker changes, etc.
To check out/use the free respec (a biggie) and then take the retooled character out for as spin.
To see if the Winter Event is in play yet.
Hunt for the Ghost Ship, Octopus, Clockwork paladins that came with I3 to see what they are about.
To see how that mission slider works.

It's a HUGE assumption on your part to say that people are back because they like the boss buff changes.

Second, with the addition of the slider, all of those who prefer grouping and felt the higher level game was becoming too easy, the missions too easy, you all had a tool, a choice, to adjust the game for your preference, to make things tough enough to satisfy you.

What is being complained about is that for the rest of us, there is no choice offered. It's just tougher, like it or not, ready or not, and if you aren't a scrapper, a tanker, or a fairly narrow specialized other AT build that can deal with it, your soloing days are over. We are just saying the choice shouldn't have been taken away. Why are you having such a problem with players with a different preference having a choice? You want tougher bosses, tougher missions, use the new slider. We, and it's a fairly numerically significant 'we', can't. The slider doesn't go in the opposite direction.

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Emphasis below is mine:
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I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.

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Sounds like it's an important, maybe even crucial part of their design of the game to me.

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The problem, Lothart, is not that people are complaining that they can't take on two +4 bosses anymore in the godly manner they used to. They are complaining that they can't reasonably take on one single even conn boss anymore. A rather substantial difference that negates much of your argument.

Excellent well thought out post. Should be read by the devs and anyone going through this thread.

Have to agree here. File this under the ages old cliche "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

You would keep the players happier by saying "Here are some sweet rewards and bonuses you can only get by teaming" instead of "Team up or you're going to get smacked."

The intent of the change may have been good, but the results of the means selected aren't meeting the real world logistics of a lot of players. Of the friends in my RL that have this game, this issue is eating at them and they're who I normally prefer to team with when I do team.

That being said, thanks for the reply and explanation. And especially for the reassurance that it's being looked at. I will continue patiently in the hopes that a better prod for teaming is arrived at.

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I think the devs have an unenviable task.

I think the devs are human. I think the devs are fallible. I think the devs are doing their best. I think bugs are a reality of the computer age, and I think that, given the size of CoH as an application, it's a wonder it runs as smoothly as it does. I think we should give them a break.

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I think this is the understatement of the year. I can think of another game that has perhaps the most outstanding and forthcoming game support staff I've ever seen (NeverWinter Nights) and yet they are regularly raked over the coals in their forums by players who didn't get what they wanted in the latest patch now, Now, NOW!!! regardless of whether or not what they wanted would have been good for the game or the effort in man hours it would take to provide it. Players who either forget that the continued development and support costs money and man hours, that a lot of TIME and effort goes into the nifty features that are taken for granted (do you have any idea of the clipping challenges that capes represent?), or else bemoan about how all the dev staff are concerned with is making money because they work for a money grubbing corporation (What? They should be providing this game and spending their time supporting all of us out of the goodness of their hearts?).

I think that the devs on any well made game do what they do more out of a passionate love for that game than just as a job to get paid. Not that there's anything wrong with getting paid. Eating, driving, having a roof and clothing, are all fun things to have and do.

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I think Nazi-types are evil and make wonderful targets for aspiring heroes. I think some people like to play the victim.

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I think the Fifth Column was doomed because the game was about to be released in Europe and Germany has very strict laws about what elements of the past can be portrayed or glorified in any fashion in a game or else the game is banned. (Market issue)

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I think the 3D rendering and attention to detail in CoH is amazing. I think a lot of people take it for granted.


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I think this is all too true. Like a CGI sequence in a movie, if it's more or less seamless you don't notice after a while but if it looks blocky or coarse it becomes annoying and a detraction. CoH has a VERY smooth 3D engine and some of the best and smoothest life-like animation I've seen in a game.

I think the original post was entertaining and outstanding even if I don't agree with every part of it.

I think that despite my two posts on the I3 boss-buff issue that CoH is the best MMOG running. If I didn't, I wouldn't care enough to post.

I think that a whole lot of reasons come together to make CoH the best MMOG running.

I think I got a piece of my childhood back when my first character hit the Outbreak zone.

I think the character tool is a piece of inspired gaming genius and Marvel be damned.

I think Marvel's claim that Cryptic doesn't own a comic is dead wrong. Part of CoH's appeal is that due to the updates and new material, the whole game is an ongoing comic book and we get to be characters in it.

I think the lack of uber-loot, the ability to be effective against something other than bunnies from the get-go, the variety of bad guys, make CoH easy to get into and stay in from the get-go.

I think that one fellow's guide described it best when he referred to it as the City of Hybrids. This game gives you characters that have an emphasis, but if managed the right way, have a touch of several classes. Gives you lots of tactical options if you can adapt to that and not look for narrow classifications that many other games use. I have a dark defender that has evolved to part blaster, part debuffer, part healer, part controller and a blast to play with.



I think some people who complain about one class or another haven't yet understood the City of Hybrids.

Oh, and I also think I would probably have a handful of Kheldians if I wasn't such an altoholic (28 toons strung out from lvl 5 to 26 across five servers).