ProcessedMeatMan

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Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...

This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).

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"Slightly," eh? Does that mean there will be no more recharge debuff... excuse me, I mean... does thism mean that it will only debuff by .5%?

Thank you for the response States!! Much appreciated!

I do have a question I'd like your insight about though:

With Wet Ice providing such a miniscule amount of Defense (3% 6-slotted is terrible), do you think it's in line with the Mezz resist powers that the 3 other Tank powersets get?

Ice Armor - Wet Ice - .5% Defense base, enhanceable up to 3% (that match still doesn't make any sense to me) - No penalty aside from End cost.

Invul - Unyielding (approx) 9% Resistance base, enhanceable up to 19.8 resistance - Def Debuff penalty

Stone - Rooted - Health regen (DK the #s here) - Slow and -Travel powers penalty

Fire - Both Shields - Gives them all of their resistance - Penalty=no knockback protection

I think you may have misunderstood. I also think you're math is off (I'm sure someone will school me if I am too), but this is how I read it:

Wet Ice: .5% base Def
EA: .5% base Def per target, max 14 targets

Defense SOs give 20%. 20% of .5 = .1 boost per SO.

Wet Ice: 6 slotted all Def = .5 + (.1*6) = 1.1% Max Def

EA: 6 slotted all Def = (.5 + (.1*6))*14 = 15.4% Max Def

That's horrible. I wouldn't slot these at all with Defense.
10 slots for a combined increase of 15.5% Def. Completely not worth the investment.
You're better off slotting for damage and killing things fast before they destroy you.

EDIT: Because I messed up my own equation.

My biggest issue with Ice is the tendency to be one-two and even three shotted by Arch-Villains that tend to land a lucky streak or two.

While the reduced accuracy certainly helps, it doesn't address what happens when they DO hit and take us out in 3 seconds or less.

Also, there is the issue of player accuracy and ToHit buffs in PvP. Ice (also SR and FF Defenders) have had their Defenses reduced, but Accuracy and ToHit buffs have not. Our armors are now that much easier to overcome.

Some interesting ideas have been detailed in this thread.

What are your thoughts Mr. States?

Oh no! Not that "knockback" bit! Pheroz (I think) tore me apart over that one. Old news! I've since changed my tune!

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you don't get experience... in PvE

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... I hope you meant PvP...

Too bad fall damage takes away from your xp gain.

I don't mean to be negative or stir up controversy, but I'm curious why the change is happening at all.

It's obvious these changes are directed at Powerleveling. Since PLing happens primarily in instanced missions, yet these changes aren't going to have any effect in these missions... then why implement them at all?

You know... now that i think about... I might've just jumped at the opportunity to brag a little. I do believe Gravity as a whole has an AoE control gap, but I'm often oblivious to it because of my secondary (which, btw, I chose for concept 10 months ago. I knew nothing of any 'control' issues back then). My only point I have, i suppose, is that Gravity can do wonderous things... but it needs outside support to do it. Unlike some of the other Primaries that could almost ignore thier secondaries to pull off what we do solo-wise.

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First, this was a gravity discussion. How your ice controller could solo pre-pet is relevant, but only as a comparison. A gravity controller who set mission difficulty to +1lvl/+numbers actually just set his difficulty to the highest difficulty for his set (because the numbers make it more dangerous than the extra level of the next setting, even post-pet thru 50). All other controller sets are better at atypically-large mob spawns than gravity.

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I know we're taking the subject slightly off track, but I have to mildly disagree with this. While a Gravity controller that relied entirely on his/her Primary set to solo might be limited by those level ranges, I can assure you that Gravity can solo higher levels than that depending on their secondary. I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary. My point is that Gravity is in no way limited to small groups of +1 enemies. Are we as efficient as a Fire or Illusion controller? Doubtful, but we aren't pushovers.

If you were talking pre-32, then I apologize for ranting.

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Rad secondary has control aspects that other secondaries do not have. Which is why this discussion is not about secondaries, but primaries... namely Grav. Obviously you have a way around the "Grav" issues, being that you have access to the Rad secondary. Others, such as myself, do not have a secondary that is as multi-functional as Rad and therefore suffer from the base troubles associated with Grav Primary.

So with all due respect... I'm thrilled your life is so easy... seems to be a common thread with anything */rad. (hmmm...) But as for the rest of us, your argument is just so much... Hyperbole.

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Since you quoted me I'll assume you actually read this part: "I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary."
And it's actually more the buff/debuffs/heal aura that make me able to solo those higher levels and AVs. The extra slow from Lingering Rad and the holds from Choking Cloud and EMP are nice, but aren't the reason I'm able to do what I do.

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First, this was a gravity discussion. How your ice controller could solo pre-pet is relevant, but only as a comparison. A gravity controller who set mission difficulty to +1lvl/+numbers actually just set his difficulty to the highest difficulty for his set (because the numbers make it more dangerous than the extra level of the next setting, even post-pet thru 50). All other controller sets are better at atypically-large mob spawns than gravity.

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I know we're taking the subject slightly off track, but I have to mildly disagree with this. While a Gravity controller that relied entirely on his/her Primary set to solo might be limited by those level ranges, I can assure you that Gravity can solo higher levels than that depending on their secondary. I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary. My point is that Gravity is in no way limited to small groups of +1 enemies. Are we as efficient as a Fire or Illusion controller? Doubtful, but we aren't pushovers.

If you were talking pre-32, then I apologize for ranting.

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As an aside, I haven't had a chance to try, but it's possible that AE Dimension Shift and AE Wormhole might combine with a little synergy. You can phase a high level group, then AE Wormhole the phased group somewhere else. The already phased opponents will stay in place, while the unphased opponents will be teleported away into a corner for your team to kill. This might allow AE Wormhole to act like a sifter to seperate phased from non-phased opponents. Not sure how useful this tactic might or might not be, but it's interesting to think about.

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That's a decent idea in theory, though still situational, but unfortunately you can't cast any powers on shifted bad guys. You'd just get an "unaffected" notice if you tried to do that.

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To me, they didn't change wormhole. They dropped a power I used frequently and gave me something I can't use. Good for the unhappy group of gravs and bad for everyone else that wasn't in the loop on the change.

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I don't think anyone here was in the loop.


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If you think about it, grav's are excellent single-target controllers, not AoE.

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That's exactly why most of us want some sort of change. What good is a single target controller that faces large groups on a regular basis?

I don't think so. Read what she said:

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Would be better if the mobs were somehow rooted as a group while shifted , but in its' current form they chase all over the place then attack and kill everyone they can once they unshift . I cannot see how that would be a frequently used "control" option. If they'd stay clumped I could GDF them when they unphased, but not during their PS squishy chase.

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Seems to me she's talking about the old DS, which is the one that I had back in the day. Nothing like phase-shifted bad guys running rampant all over the place. I hated that power even more back then lol! The confusion it caused remains unchallenged!

Dimension Shift was changed back in Issue 2 (I think), the baddies are rooted now.

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The new WH+CF=? I really don't understand how a group of scattered rooted mobs shooting you to bits from range is considered a control option. Unless I drop RI on top of the group, CF rarely gets used by me at all, especially now that I'm noticing that mobs' ranged damage ramps up considerably at higher levels. Used in teams w/o the debuff from RI (or the slow from LR) on the group gets a "?!?" from the team as to how this helped them any. I'm not close-minded though, if you have a viable "every fight" use for CF w/o using another powers with it PMM, do please enlighten me, I'd be happy to hear about it, here or in a PM.


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I never said I used it every fight. I also never said I used it and ONLY it. Most of the uses I've found for it involve combining it with other powers, be it my own or someone else's. IMO, an immobilze is only really useful by itself for "melee only" attackers.. and we all know there aren't many of those in this game. Immobs do synergize well with disorients and slows (to an extent) if you need to do so in a pinch.

My uses for it vary greatly depending on the team I'm with. Mostly, I use it to keep things locked around the tank. I've rarely, if ever, taken aggro off of any tank doing that and there have been times that it's proved to be a very valid and useful tactic. Necessary? No. But a controller isn't necessary at all with a good tank around.
I used to team a lot with a DA scrapper that used Oppressive Gloom. CF + OG is an awesome hold tool. OP is a toggle, so those suckers are held almost indefinitely.
Awhile back I used to team with a blaster a lot. I'd start most fights off by SSing past a group and letting a Sing take initial aggro. Once that was done, I'd cast RI, EF and LR. Then, for good measure, I'd use CF to ensure that the melee attackers stayed away from the blaster. I will freely admit that this use for it depended greatly on my secondary. Sings are good at taking aggro, but with out the slow and debuffs from Rad, the few stray shots I did get would've hurt a lot more.
I've also used it solo as a (very) mild way of ticking off HP from a group while the Sings bash away. I've also found it useful for keeping runners from.. well.. running. Sure GD or LR do that fine, but since I cast CF almost constantly, they never have the chance to run so it's not necessary for me to do that.

Now, you'll notice that in all the examples I listed some other power was used to make CF a much more viable tool. I'm not saying that that's a good thing, but I've had to find ways of filling time in-between GDF and EMP and some of my little CF+whatever tools seemed to do it for me. These are elements of MY playstyle. I've had conversations with far too many Gravity controllers that seem to think I'm some sort of idiot because I took and use CF. Apparently, there's only one way to play a Gravity controller.

I've tested out the WH+CF method quite a few times on test. It has it uses, but still remians situational. It's good for removing a troublesome group from the fight without phasing them - If their Immobed and then ported a fair distance away, they can't shoot you (assuming no snipers) unless you're limited by small rooms in an indoor mission.
It's good for plopping whole groups of baddies into a circle of Sings. In my testing I did take a shot or 2, but overall the Sings sucked up the aggro faster than I took it.
There are some other things as well, but I'm tired and can't remember them.

Unless the disorient portion (which is viewed as a secondary effect, unfortunately) is increased, wormhole will remain a situational tool. I personally like it better than the single-target version for reasons I've stated about 20 times now. I'm not saying the old version wasn't viable, I believe it was, but overall I find the AoE more fun, interesting and useful.

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And by the by, what difference does it make who liked what and who didn't 3 months ago?

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Nobody probably. But it came up in the flow of our conversation here, so there's no harm in talking about it.

Ahhh.. ok. I remember that now. Yeah, that's one of the conversations I was talking about a few posts back. For awhile there I thought I was the only person in the whole damn game that had wormhole.

The Pro-Wormholers are crawling out of the woodwork now. Where were you all 3 months ago when I was getting my head chewed off?

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Read the thread for yourself, it's still up (and locked now). With the notable exception of ProcessedMeatMan , almost all of us called for some kind of change to Wormhole -- shorter animation, no knockback, longer disorient, whatever. We also largely called for another AoE control, although this request was generally formulated as "Replace D-Shift with a useful AoE control." So it looks like they read what we suggested and tried to meet our requests, such as tweaking Propel so that it no longer did sub-Brawl DPS.

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What are you talking about?

The only post I ever made in THAT thread was against making our pets a toggle, as far as I can remember. I never said anything about wormhole one way or the other... or any other powers for that matter.

And if you think I DON'T want any changes to wormhole, then you need to work on your reading comprehension. In fact, I've said several times that it needs exactly the things you listed. If you want to call me out on anything, the only thing you can say is that I like the AoE WH better than the single target.

EDIT: Hmm.. came off kinda harsh i did. I think I may have misuderstood what you meant by your post... were you saying that I was the only voice in favor of the current wormhole? I'm confused!!

These types of Tanker changes seem to be based on tanks that herd lots of baddies. That's a bad precedent to base a Powerset on IMO. Not everyone herds and, better yet, not everyone wants to. So what if Ice tank defense gets ungodly high? We have virtually no resistances to the most prevalent damage types in the game.
If this change is based on The Arena, I still think it's silly. The ability to accrue insane amounts of Defense in PvP is very highly unlikely. It's not like we can herd other players to get that kind of defense.

Ha! I use crushing field quite a bit and am not afraid to say it. CF gets way more use than wormhole does when I play.

Warp_Factor... I know of about 5-6 other high-level Gravity controllers on Infinity that have it, me NOT being one of them. When I say "know" I mean I actually "know" them (in game), they're in my SG or we've teamed quite a bit from time to time. That's not counting the other Gravity 'trollers I run into that have the power. As a matter of fact, I was in a pick-up team with a lvl 33 Grav that had it and swore by it.
I wouldn't base any opinion on what I read on the forums. The ones that hate DS speak up and they do so very loudly, especially here. The ones that DO like and use it never say anything. And why would they?

If you think I'm trying to convince you that DS is a great power, then you've misunderstood my point. I used to have it but scrapped it for concept reasons. Nevermind the fact that it rarely, if ever, saw use. My point was a simple one: Every power has it's fans. No matter which one gets changed, and regardless of your personal feelings about any of them, someone out there isn't going to be happy about it. I don't think that's a hard point to grasp.

Quick question... does EA still stack? I mean, if we use it once and get the 5 mob bonus, does hitting again (assuming you slots for a lot of recharges/hasten) give us another 5, for a 10 mob bonus?

Hehe... yeah, Intangibility powers aren't very well thought of overall, but there are some that like them. Granted, they're probably the minority.

You and I seem to have very similar experiences with Wormhole overall. It seems to be our difference in playstyles and secondaries that determine how much utility the old has VS the new. I can definitely see that argument.

I bet you can remember the 8 trillion threads Gravity had before Issue 1 (in particular) and every issue in between that mentioned our "control gap." The ideas that always came up (after Issue one) involved scrapping or changing Propel, DS and wormhole. It's been that way since.
I made the mistake one time of defending Wormhole because I found it very useful. I was about as torn apart as one can possibly get in an online forum. Every use for it I had was met with negativity by several Gravity folks. This was just my experience. I've read other anti-wormhole comments in several other Gravity threads and have spoken up to defend it from time to time.
Anyway, these people seem to have suddenly vanished off the face of the Earth. I never pay attention to names so I can't say if any of them have posted here, but I assure you... the golden light that many of you are shining on the power is new to me.

That's not true about DS. Dark Defenders have the exact same power, it's called Black Hole. If there are any differences between the two, they're not that big. Force Field also has Detention Field which acts like a single target DS.

IMO, Dimension Shift has no place in the Gravity set. Try as I might, the way the power works just doesn't make sense when you think of what Gravity does. It's for this reason that I eventually scrapped it.

Then apparently all of the old wormhole haters have quit and moved on, have drastically changed their tune, or are now being very hypocritical.

That's almost opposite of my experiences. The DS haters are probably greater in number and a LOT more vocal that's for sure, but the Dimension Shift debate has come and gone several times on these forums. Bottom line is, it is used and liked. I may have made it seem more so than it actually it is by the way I posted, but your "matter of fact" statement that DS is a hated and crappy power just isn't the way it is.

I agree with your second statement. My point was I, and several other Gravity posters here, have already found many uses for the new Wormhole that make it far more worthwhile to have than the single-target version. There are a variety of factors that determine this: Playstyle, Secondary, Mindset, etc. The thing that gets me the most about this current "Wormhole Debate" is the fact that, as it stands now, it's a second rate glorified TP foe that rarely ever sees use. Past debates have led me to that conclusion. Long ago my Gravity kin voiced loudly that it, Propel AND DS were all crap and they needed to go. Now that Wormhole is being messed with, the tides have shifted. I find that funny. I wonder what complaints will crawl out of the woodwork if Propel and DS ever are changed... because I can almost guarantee a very vocal minority will come out in disfavor of it.