ProcessedMeatMan

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Junior, If Radiation infection with 6 Defence Debuffs and Attack powers with 6 Damage/Acc SO's aren't enough, then that says something about SR doesn't it? Perhapse...*Gasp* SR is fine without a Buff adding Resistance to Defence Debuffs! OMGZBBQ!!

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Honestly, I can't speak too much for SR as I don't play it. I can, however, talk from my experience as an Icer.

In a fight with an opponent not build not PvP, I don't get hit too often. that's the way it's SUPPOSED to be.

When I've foolishly gone up against anyone that is built FOR PvP, I get hit consistently. One HOed RI is enough to notice a serious increase in landed hits. Toss tactics on top of that, I may as well not have any armors on. BU and Aim? I just go AFK and let the opponent wail away.

So, while you continue to throw this SR/Elude example down my throat, my ice Tank is melting away. Sorry if I don't feel much sympathy for your plight.

Ah, but you don't. It'll take more than One Debuff to overcome a min/maxed PvP Defense build.... unless it's Ice, of course. Then you only need one Acc inspiration.

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What are you going to do about the lack of reliable protection DEF builds have against anyone with perma or nearly perma +ToHit buffs, i.e. Blasters and Body Mastery Scrappers?



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How bout you do what controlers do! Brawl till focused acc goes down and RUN when Aim/Buildup goes up?!

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Yarrr, thar she blows! Tactics, matey. Goose and gander and whatnot.

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Oh young Master! Please school me in the art of tactically overcomming the complete inability to hit your opponent! Unless you were suggesting I pull another Respec out of the ole bung hole and spec in a new pool power to combat the Def DEbuff resist?

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If you want to win against min/maxed for PvP Defense builds: Yes. If not, then don't cry because you're not equipped with the tools to do the job.

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What's with the vocal contingent of PVP players assuming this change has anything at all to do with PVP?


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I can answer that Kali. From States' original post:

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As some players have pointed out, Defense builds (Super Reflexes, Ice Armor, Stone Armor to a degree) have an inherent weakness in that there are a plethora of powers that debuff Defense in PvE and PvP.

In order to rectify this situation, we will be adding a Resistance to Defense Debuffs to a number of powers. This Resistance will not be enhanceable, but it will increase over level.


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However, he hasn't said how this was actually going to work. Anything anyone says regarding the issue is pure speculation.

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Also, I have tested them out. Really. A lot, even. When you actually get your Dark/Dark to 50, let's talk. Feel free to play him in the Arena on Test. Let me know what you find out. I'd love to hear of viable tactics for a D3 in PvP. Because without them, it's looking as though 3 new zones are going to be worthless to me.


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Since you obviously HAVE played a D3 to 50, you'd know that you don't t even HAVE any Defense Debuffing powers.

While your gripe "may" be justified to a certain degree, you're in the wrong place for it.

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Oh, Bakka, I am so with you on this. Rads and Darks and even the new Trick Arrow defenders are yet more nerfed for PvP. I had given up totally in the Arena until a friend gave me some tips on how to stay mildly viable. This tears it. What is the point of our debuffs anywhere near PvP?


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1) Dark Defenders don't debuff Defense. Irrelevant here.

2) rad Defenders/Controllers have been "the" set of choice for PvP since it was first introduced. It's the combination of their Resistance/Defense/Slow debuffs that made them over-powered back then. Now that they've been reduced to more reasonable levels, Rad is right where it should be in MOST PvP encounters.

3) Trcik Arrow is, by it's very nature, a difficult set to use in PvP. The way the debuffs are applied are what make it hard to use, not the debuffs themselves... not to mention that their only Def DeBuffing power also does DoT, which (for balance purposes) makes it a weaker debuff anyway.

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I'll Raise you and invite you to a little play session with Outlaw torn and myself. I can Barely hit him. Whats that you say? Wait till his Elude runs out?! That sounds like a Jolly old time! I'll catch up on some needlepoint while I Inviz in a corner somewhere and wait for his Elude+Defence toggles+Inherant defence+his resistance to defence buffs to go down. There is Definately a problem with the changes and PvP. Again I'll Gladly show you.

And to Pirate Fanboy, I HAD a tough time with them before, thy're getting an Additional Buff while I'm watching my Resistance debuffs getting LOWERED because a FEW have trouble with it.

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Ice Tanks don't have Elude.

When you throw Elude into the picture the survivability of Ice VS SR is completely out of whack.

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I have 6 Debuff defence/end HO's in my Rad infection. I Fight SR and Ice on a regular basis in the arena. With Rad infection, Multiple Damage/Acc HO's ane Even Buffs from other team members I Still have a Horrible time trying to Hit an Ice tank/SR. I can't drop their toggles with Brawl because it NEVER connects.

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Having played in the Arena frequently WITH a maxed out Ice Tank, I call BS.

If a Kinetics Defender with 6-slotted Tactics and NO Def Debuffs can hit me consistently, then I'll say that A) The Ice or SR you're up against is massively buffed by other players as well or 2) Your perceptions are highly screwed.

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So preety much, Rad controllers can Abandon ye all hope of hitting SR in pvp...Like Freakin Ice tanks and SR need the help...Out of all the glaring flaws that need immediate attention in CoH, you concentrate on making SR and a few Tank builds harder to hit in PVP? What kind of Bilge Rats make these decisions? Yaaaarg!!!

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Are you kidding?

A Defender with a single slotted Accuracy enhancement and 6-slotted tactics is more than enough to negate all of an Ice Tanks Defense in PvP. You won't even need any Debuffs. Same goes for SR once Elude is out of the picture.

Does this mean Defense based sets are no longer affected by "non-resistable Defender debuffs" in PvP? If not, then this change loses most of it's purpose in that environment.

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So, while I think that Statesman tries to listen to us, I think he hears us saying only what he wants to hear us saying.


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or maybe the Ice Tank they play test with lives in Mythical Overpowered Land with that DM/Regen that was 2-shotting +7s.

I'm so bitter I'm still dwelling on the past...

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They've got to kidding, nearly a damn week to do all four Shard TF's with almost NO reward, hell how many people have even done it, it can't take that much to data mine. That is a world class boner decision, well at least I5 gives 50's something new to do.......... oops my bad..

~A


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I don't understand these gripes... what if the Shard TFs were never intended to award badges of any kind? Ever? What would you complain about then? That you "wasted" all that time playing through a storyline you never read... in hopes that, someday, it might provide you with another lame looking badge that does nothing for you at all?
These TFs are game content. They're stories put together to add flavor and history to the game. Their sole purpose is NOT to provide you with a badge.

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Crushing Field: This is a good power but you might want to put it off for a few levels. You can use it to keep the bad guys in your freezing rain. If other people in your group have AoE DOT powers (burn, fire rain, and so on) it gets even more useful. Damage is minimal so don’t slot for that. It recharges pretty fast and lasts long enough for me so I didn't slot for those. As an AoE it does burn some endurance so you might want to put an enhancer or two in there to take the edge off. Otherwise, crank that accuracy. The anti-fly aspect of this power has come in handy only on rare occasion, but could prove very helpful in PvP.


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I love when people actually point out the POSITIVES of AoE immobs like Crushing Field rather than the usual "the power sux" nonsense.
Oh yeah... very nice guide!

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My recommendation to fellow Ice tanks: If I5 goes live as is, the absolute best way to fight AVs is to max out on purple inspirations.

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I disagree. The "absolute best way" is to just find another Tank. Even an SKed non-Ice will do better.

Yeah, but who would rezz them all when the team wiped?

On a different note, I played with the new Hibernate change. The "45 second duration" is non-existent in PvE. Don't know about PvP though. Also, the End Recovery is nice. I took the End Reducer out of Hibernate, ran all of my toggles with it on and I gained endurance.

So now we have 2 good End Recovery powers... too bad End Recovery isn't a form of effective damage mitigation.

I'm sure he forgot to mention the 1000 second recharge it'll get too.

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Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.

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[censored]

I certainly hope Phase Shift gets this duration treatment as well. And while we're at it, let's [censored] over Granite too. I demand equal opportunity [censored]!

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All the test results I have seen say that while soloing will still be possible in I5, you will be a Debt-Monger if you try to team. NO WONDER THEY HALVED THE DEBT IF YOU DO MISSIONS!!!



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I have heard this a lot too. But have you actually played on test? Most people haven't. "People" are right saying that this is a massive nerf. But this game is still very playable in teams on test. Don't start falling for something because everyone is saying it. Actually go play on test. You'll notice a big difference...but you can still team and win.

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I have. And in my experiences, which I have quite a lot of, an Ice Tank on a large 7-8 hero team is a walking disaster waiting to happen.

It's "playable" in the sense that I'm logged on and "playing," but it's certainly not fun and it's definitely not tanking.

I can honestly say, to my dismay, that (unless he has his own full-time Defender tagging along) I would rather not have an Icey as the lead tank if I'm running large team missions.

Yes, IMO, it really is that bad.

If they've even remotely considered implementing such massive decreases in Defense and Resistance because of one power in one powerset that most tanks don't even have, then we'll all have solid proof that they are officially on dope.

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I've never even seen an Ice/Ice tanker in the game, although I've certainly heard they exist. I've only seen Fire/Ice when it comes to Ice Melee.


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There are a few on Infinity (I've seen 2 at lvl 50), but by and large you're right. I'd approximate about 90% of the Iceys I've come across are anything BUT Ice Melee.

Circeus,

I'd personally like to thank you for all the effort you've put into getting Ice looked at... and for opening some unprecedented dialog with Statesman.
The only changes in I5 that "really" bother me are the Ice Armor ones. I seriously believe your interaction with the developers has played at least a small part in getting our beloved set some attention.

Hopefully they'll come around on this whole EA debacle, but we shall survive (I hope)!

So, cheers to Circeus! Our Ice Tank Godfather!

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Gang,

Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...

And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!

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Can we turn our toggles on and off while Hibernating? That's the biggest issue with this power IMO.

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Since the number of monkeys has been reduced on test, will there be epic defeat badges?

So, those that have the 10K for Zookeeper would have 2 badges (1K and 10K)


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There was talk of adding one... but it would be beyond reason for anyone to attain the 10,000 Monkey badge at this point. The reason the badge was lowered in the first place was to compensate for the increased difficulty in getting to 10,000.

If we made a 10,000 badge now, we'd have the same problem all over again.

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Isn't it of the same caliber as the other insanely hard to get badges that were just added though? Most of those are beyond reason, but still able to be achieved.

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Exactly! Some of us like to hunt for badges just because, well, we like to hunt for badges!

If there can be a badge for a stupidly unrealistic goal of One Billion damage taken, I don't see why having higher count defeat badges would be such a bad thing!

I demand more monkeys! Please?

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People have recorded the base of Invincibility at 3.5%, so I was only going by that, please feel free to give the correct number (for range too please!)

3.5% * (1 + (6 * .22)) = 8.12% per mob.

8.12% * 14 mobs is 113.68.


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The number isn't 3.5% base - it's 1.5%. To be honest - I don't know where the data came from that led to 3.5%.

Certainly, your points on Toxic and Psi are true; let's not forget that Invulnerability has an inherent weakness to Psi in Unyielding, though. It's safe to say that Ice is better (albeit marginally) because it lacks that weakness.

You're 100% correct about assuming 14 mobs in EA AND Invincibility - though something else isn't taken into account. Invincibility works only while mobs are in melee. So as the number of mobs decrease, Invincibility decreases. If a Tanker leaves melee range for 1 second, the buff from Invincibility fades...This isn't the case with EA; it's a click that lasts 45 seconds. The calculation of mobs is done at the moment it's used - and that buff carries throughout the 45 seconds. It doesn't decrease like Invincibility.

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At last check, Ice still had no psi defense (sans Weave)

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I'm sure he was talking about Unyielding Self -Def, meaning that Inv has a better change of getting hit by psionic...

Or at least that's how I took it, but with the latest display of knowledge this guys are giving I'm not so sure anymore.

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But Invul doesn't get any Psionic Def either... so a debuff of Any% wouldn't make any difference at all.

How can you DeBuff 0%?

Ice Armor does not have any protection against Psionic damage.

Even if you WERE to add it to Energy Absorption, we'd only get a max 17% defense to it. Why waste a power choice and 5 slots on something that an inspiration can do better?

Thinking further... why play a Powerset that an Inspiration can outperform?