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Quote:Uh... like what?
It's a mirror universe of OUR (e.g. Paragon) Universe. It has absolutely nothing to do with DC.Quote:led to the Justice Lords taking over the world's governments and ruling with an iron fist. Using their satellite base for global surveillance, the Justice Lords went on to suppress free speech, outlaw elections, and eliminate all crime -
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Quote:Umm, excuse me, but the Mirror Universe concept where the hero's counterpart in now eeeevil was old when classic Star Trek did the episode "Mirror, Mirror" in 1967. That franchise used the same trope in pretty much all the later Star Trek series.
That's where we got the image of the "goatee <character name>" as representing the mirror universe, because Spock had a goatee in the mirror universe.
Justice Lords was "ripping off" any number of older IPs (to use your terms, although it's certainly not copyrighted anywhere I know of).
You're missing the point. They borrowed a LOT more than the simple idea of an evil twin universe. -
Quote:Space cops aren't DC specific. Jedi/Sith from StarWars have a lot of similarities to the GLC/SC. The Jedi are galactic peacekeepers opposed by fallen members who have similar powers. They use construct-ish like powers, invisible but with many of the same effects. They don't derive their powers from technology, but they do have a signature piece of tech (lightsabre). You've got the Book of Oa in DC, and in StarWars you have the Jedi Archives. Jedi have a code with similarities to the GLC rules of engagement.Do want.
Also, the City of Heroes Universe has more than enough stuff to be getting on with that needs fleshing out.
'Mirror Universes' have been around since comic books started, and science or whoever came up with different dimensions.
The Lantern Corps are, however, DC specific.
The similarites are strong, but there are a lot of differences. You could do the same with the COX implementation. If they can do Going Rogue, they can do something along the lines of what I suggested. -
Sure, the evil twin universe idea has been around, but the similarities extend way beyond the basic "evil universe" idea.
Quote:They aren't a direct copy in the sense that you'd run into copyright issues. That's part of what I was getting at.If DC comics thought that the Praetorians were a direct copy of their Justice Lords, they would've brought the hammer down when they were introduced in Issue 1. -
I'd be down with a Rikti AT, but again the whole Going Rogue expansion is blatantly copying the same IP.
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Quote:Sorry, but this is completely misrepresenting the situation. First off, the two are NOT mutually exclusive. Adding story-driven content would in no way detract from your ability to RP or "create your own story". Secondly, the main issue is how the story is told rather than if it is being told.
I simply prefer to create my OWN story within the game. If the devs did all the story for me, I'd get bored with it pretty quick.
Quote:They can only add so much of a cinematic experience before it stops being a game and more like an interactive movie. I personally don't like games that overuse cut scenes to tell the story. A lot of people feel the same way. Most of the playerbase would probably avoid content that forces a bunch of cut scenes on them, interrupting the action. Since most people would likely avoid it, what is the devs' incentive for doing it?
If you've ever run an ITF you'll probably notice that when the cut scene rolls around, people start getting impatient and want to skip past it...but they can't.
That's what I meant about people not all playing MMOs for the same reason. You want an immersive cinematic experience, most people I've encountered in game just want to kill crap. The main reason there aren't more cut scenes already is that the majority of the playerbase doesn't care. They would rather their action not be interrupted than have something cramming a story down their throat. MMOs are designed to appeal to the widest market possible, the devs are aware that players who actively RP their characters and have a great interest in the underlying story behind the events in the game are a minority. They aren't going to force a bunch of cinematics (which take time and resources to produce) on a playerbase when the majority of said playerbase doesn't want them.
As far as the linear goes. I don't like the fact that my villain characters are basically Arachnos flunkies, I pretend to be a mercenary doing it for money or some other such thing. If they introduced a bunch of cinematic storyline, do you really think they AREN'T going to contnue the story that they already have in place on villainside? That would essentially FORCE you to pay attention to a story that you may not like. If tey forced me to sit through a bunch of crap that basically says my character is a flunkie working for Arachnos I doubt I'd playvillain side anymore.
So many things wrong here. First off, nobody is asking for 30 minute long cut-scenes. Nor are we asking for EVERY mission to be laden with them. At most this would be a minimal annoyance for some who don't like it. I highly doubt that you've done thorough polling on what players like and do not like, so lets stop with the whole "the majority of the players" stuff.
"[players that] have a great interest in the underlying story behind the events in the game are a minority."
Have you considered that people may not pay attention to it or take interest in it BECAUSE of the very inadequacies that I'm complaining about? It's a circular argument. People don't like it because it isn't well done, therefore lets not improve it because people don't like it.
As far as Villain content, there are inherent difficulties in developing story content for villains. I'll just say that you knew going into it that Arachnos would be heavily involved, and there are options to avoid it if playing along with Arachnos is a problem for you. -
Quote:Why not expand the cannon-- add something new to the game.So...basically taking two groups that have nothing to do with City Of, and copying them?
Given we have a lot of rather good groups in the game already that are in canon, this gets an /unsigned. Id rather have a PPD AT, a Longbow AT...anything thats remotely canon, thanks.
As far as your remakrs about "copying", obviously the COX team doesn't have a problem with that. The whole "Going Rogue" expansion is basically ripping off of the "Destiny's Hand" arc on JLA or the Justice Lords episodes of the TV series. Marvel also did a similar thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Lords
Quote:The Justice Lords are an alternate version of the Justice League from a parallel Earth. The roster of the Justice Lords was the same as the original DCAU Justice League an alternate Batman, Green Lantern, Hawkgirl, Martian Manhunter, Superman, and Wonder Woman with the exception of The Flash, because their Flash has been killed... led to the Justice Lords taking over the world's governments and ruling with an iron fist. Using their satellite base for global surveillance, the Justice Lords went on to suppress free speech, outlaw elections, and eliminate all crime by lobotomizing all criminals and supervillains (to the point of having a man arrested for complaining about the food quality and incorrect calculation of cost at a restaurant). Although they justified their behavior to the masses as "temporary," and to each other as for the good of the people, it amounted to tyranny in the eyes of the Justice League.
So lets not act like ripping off an idea from another comic IP is a bad thing. -
Quote:What you're saying doesn't make any sense to me. What I'm talking about is upgrading the production values of the game to be a more cinematic experience instead of having the gameplay be so generic with a bunch of text to fill in the gaps. How would that make the game linear?All of my other characters spin off from that basic storyline somehow or another. I made my characters an integral part of the world by writing my own story connecting them to it. It makes me feel like what I do matters, whether I'm saving the world or running a scanner mission for my character's own reasons (like, the person you're rescuing has information I need to set Crey up for a fall, or something similar)
Since it's an MMO, they can't make the storyline TOO immersive, because not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. If the storyline was deeply immersive, it would lead to a lot of linear gameplay, which is a BAD thing for a game relying on monthly subscriptions. If a player feels like they "beat" the game, they will stop subscribing to it. An MMO can't survive if the gameplay feels too linear, and like they're leading you by the nose to the conclusions that they want you to reach.
Basically you're saying keep the game generic and repetitive, because people might quit if it was immersive and thus linear? I don't get any of that logic. The thing about MMO's is that they (generally) are continually updated. So there shouldn't be a real conclusion unless the game is ending. -
I was just thinking as far as the cooldowns for advanced constructs, perhaps the global cooldown should be shorter than the individual cooldowns to promote variety. So for example
energy fist-45 second cooldown, 16 second advanced construct cooldown
Phantom tank- 4 minute cooldown, 2 minute advanced construct cooldown
So you could energy fist 2 minutes after summoning phantom tank, but you have to wait 4 minutes to resummon the phantom tank. -
Info on GLC/SC
The green lanterns are a group of heroes created by the Guardians of the Universe. The Guardians are ancient and powerful beings who empower noble yet often superpowerless beings from various worlds with power rings and charge them with protecting a sector of the universe. The rings give the wearers several powers, most notably the ability to create "constructs" which are basically green force-fields emanating from the ring which can take whatever shape the wielder imagines. They can also be used to shoot beams. They allow flight and also serve as universal language translators and a sort of advanced interactive computer/encyclopedia.
Sinestro was a Green Lantern Corp member who became corrupted and turned against the Guardians. He eventually created his own yellow/fear based rings and recruited his own corps. -
I noticed that the epic AT's are going to be unlocked at level 20. This may or may not open the door for new epic AT's in the future, but regardless it got me thinking about what this could possibly be. Basically my idea for an epic AT is to have something inspired by the Green Lantern Corp/Sinestro Corp in DC comics. Obviously COX would have to avoid any copyright issues, but that wouldn't be too hard.
I wrote a little background on the Green Lantern Corp (GLC) and Sinestro Corp (SC) for those who may not know. It will be the first response.
Now, there are a lot of ways that Paragon Studios could take the essence of GLC/SC (a galactic heroic organization and a galactic evil organization that are opposed to each other and yet mirror each other in powers which their members gain from an object) and do it in their own way. But the core idea is very strong and holds a lot of potential for intriguing storytelling, missions, content, etc.
Powers- How closely Paragon would want to imitate GLC/SC is neither here nor there, but I'll give an example of a fairly similar version that's different enough (imo). Instead of technology based rings, the Paragon Corps (working title lol) use magic based belts. The belts bestow powers similar to the rings such as flight and the formation of constructs. Possibilities for powers are the following:
Basic:
Personal shielding (passive)- minor-medium +res, +def
Personal shielding (togggle)- multiple types
Ranged Blasts- energy damage. 2 single target, 1 targeted AOE
Energy cage- single target hold
Aim
Buildup
Hover
Fly
Advanced Constructs:
Tank Pet- several possibilities here. Phantom army (single) type decoy or perhaps a mirror image of an enemy that attacks it's true version. It would be cool if the powers mimicked the mob as well, but that might be hard.
DPS Pet- shoots random targets with energy blasts
Energy swords- single target DOT. Swords form around enemy, doing lethal dot.
Energy fist- medium range, single target damage + disorient
Energy cages- limited AOE (3-5) hold
Team Shielding- ala dispersion bubble.
Group Fly
Balance- You may be thinking, OMG OP! Here's an idea to help achieve balance: All advanced constructs have a shared cooldown. So basically you can only use one advanced construct at a time. Some might have longer cooldowns on use than others. Perhaps energy fist has a 16 second cooldown while the pet has a 2 minute cooldown. So if you use energy fist, you couldn't summon the pet, energy swords, energy cages, or group fly for 15 seconds. But if you summon the pet, you can't use energy swords, energy fist, etc, etc. for 2 minutes.
Costume- the hero and villain versions would have most costume pieces set and a limited number that you could alter (mostly skin color, face).
Perks:
Global chat channel- an interesting idea would be to do something like Vanguard did with their Psionisists. Namely, they had a global chat channel specific to that class. I think it'd be neat to have one for this epic AT. Obviously, you could turn it off.
Base of Operations- there would be a zone for the group's base of operations. Everyone would have access, but members of the group would have an ability to teleport to the base form anywhere (maybe not a pvp zone???). They might have other perks such as access to an inner sanctum, storage, access to equipment, and vendors.
Weakness: extremely low Hp. without the *belt* they are regular people. Perhaps there could be npc's of both groups and you get extra agro when facing them. heh. -
I really dig Doctor_Mechaniker's entries. Well done.
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Sister Psyche, Back Alley, Synapse, and Citadel. Before & After:
notes: I'm pretty pleased with all of them, but especially Synapse because the original was so gaudy. I think I improved it while staying very true to the original. The baby blue doesn't clash as much with the red as the dark blue does, and the chest emblem is much more elegant while similar in theme to the original. Citadel was the toughest to do. He's supposed to be an android which is a robot that appears to be human, so I tried to avoid using power suit/robotic armor. I did make him a bit worse for the wear though. Heh. -
Hey guys. I actually ran a group like this in LOTRO, and I'd be interested in joining you guys.
To me, there is no better way to get really immersive RP than to be in a perma-death group. Everyone wants to RP a heroic character, but without real risks and sacrifices, in a way it is a hollow experience.
Quote:Make new character, get disconnected due to server lag, delete and start over
In the permadeath group I ran in LOTRO, we did not count deaths due to game bugs, disconnects, AFK emergencies, etc. It was an honor system of course. I trusted the people that were playing because if they were afraid to delete, they wouldn't have been playing with us in the first place.
Quote:I'd actually be interested in doing something like this, especially including the RP aspect of it. Though if the character ever dies, instead of permanent deletion or zombifying I'd rather just remove them from the SG and exit them permanently from the challenge. I'm fine with the other restrictions.
Anyway, pst me. I'm usually on as Ultimate Parallax or Tider. -
Part of the problem is that usually I'm not doing my own missions but rather someone else's in a big group. So I outlevel my contacts and I just get used to not reading the story.
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Okay, I thought of a simple example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't ever recall two NPC's talking back and forth (text) during a mission. This happens in instances in LOTRO all the time. The game freezes everyone in place and the npc's will blab at each other for a bit. Then you kill them :P
For example, one of the epic story quests in LOTRO has you tracking down one of the Nazgul after they were washed away at the river outside of Rivendell. You find him at Helegrod which is an ancient Dwarf fortress in the Misty Mountains. The Nazgul and his servants are performing a ritual where they infuse fell spirits into the rotten corpse of the dragon Thorog who had taken over the fortress but was killed long ago. When you come upon them, they are in the middle of the ritual. You interupt them halfway through it, and Thorog flies off before coming fully under their control (killing him was a raid later in the game). Anyway it's a very cool scene. -
Quote:I think basically it's just a matter of different players favoring different things here. I took time off from CoH, played WoW for several months, took two different characters to 80 during that time, participated in end game raids up to and including Ulduar and the Trial of the Crusader, which was the last one released before I quit and came back here. WoW has everything that you describe... voice acting, cutscenes, end game raiding, etc.
I never felt a sense of immersion in WoW.
I feel immersion when a game inspires me to add to the storyline with fiction of my own. Ironically, every game I have ever played for the last 20 years has engendered that sort of immersion in me. At least on the internet. However, console games generally don't. Knights of the Old Republic was a great game, but it was not an immersive game. There was nothing particularly different about your jedi from any other jedi who might be walking through this story. Mass Effect was the same. Great game. Had loads of fun. But it never became more than 'a game,' which is what to me defines immersion.
Once a game becomes a storytelling experience and inspires me to write my own stories to add to the universe, then I am immersed. You cannot do that with the linear, console rpgs because essentially there is only one story to add to and the developers have already written it from beginning to end.
That is probably why I never felt any immersion in WoW. Blizzard controls the story to such an extent that there is really no room for your character to become part of the narrative, any more than 'generic character x' is part of the storyline. Blizzard's story is about Arthas. At least during the period of time I played. Every cutscene I saw, every bit of voice acting I experienced, every raid I participated in... all of them were part of Arthas' story, a story in which I was a minor, minor character, because it was always implied that I would have to gather at least 40 of my friends to even have a chance against Arthas and even then 40:1, we would probably still lose.
That is not immersion to me.
I get the feeling that you're treating role playing and immersion as the same thing here. In a game like Mass Effect, your objectives are extremely limited. It's not an "open-ended" game. I bet if you played something like Oblivion, you would get a feeling much more like you get in an MMO-- like you are making your own path. What I'm talking about in terms of the "immersiveness" of a single player game like Mass Effect has more to do with the production qualities that bring you into the experience (voicework, scripted events, interacting with friendly units, etc). MMO's have lagged behind single player games in this area for a long time, but they are starting to catch up.
Maybe it's just me, but I've played both WOW and Lord of the Rings Online and for some reason WOW does not feel as RP friendly to me as LOTRO. Maybe it's the settings or the ultra-competitiveness of WOW. Anyway, I'm not sure that what you felt about WOW is necessarily because of a cinematic, story-centric focus. LOTRO has that too, yet I was able to getting immersed in my characters and their stories that I created through my actions while also enjoying the more linear, "epic" stories.
Quote:Once a game becomes a storytelling experience and inspires me to write my own stories to add to the universe, then I am immersed. You cannot do that with the linear, console rpgs because essentially there is only one story to add to and the developers have already written it from beginning to end. -
Quote:Thanks for the thoughtful reply, but I'm disappointed by what you had to say about COH and I disagree that there aren't better ways of doing things. Text has it's place, but games are an interactive medium. COH could be so much more immersive. Why not have voice acting in some select parts? Why not have more cut-scenes (via in game engine or CGI).If you want to be immersed in City of Heroes, you need to treat it more like a book. Yes, there's lots of text that you can just skip past, just as you can leaf through a book, have a look at the last page and ask what the big deal was. Lacking voice acting and cutscenes (that are not incredibly annoying), the game really does play out like a textual story that you basically fight your way through. If you don't read the text, there's really nothing to immerse you in the game.
Personally, I wouldn't look for the same kind of "immersive" content a single-player game takes you through. Those games are largely scripted and rely on predictable player paths, mood music, scripted dialogues, cutscenes, briefings and so on. They're also usually 10-20 hours long. An MMO in general is going to have a much more loose interpretation of immersion and will basically tell you a story for your character to play through, which you have to read. There's no way around that.
There are fights against iconic characters, obviously, as well as fights with iconic character fighting on your side, there are a few scripted sequences and a few special missions, but by and large, that's the most you can expect out of an MMO. Even the the-called epic content just constitutes more fighting, just against bigger bosses, possibly with more elaborate techniques required to defeat them. But if you don't read the text, that still leads to the "Who the hell is Kel'Tuzzad?" problem. You're fighting a big thing at the end, but you have no idea why, who that big thing is, what it did to deserve being killed, or even what the hell a "Naxramas" even is. And that can be rather embarrassing. -
I'm curious about what kind of content COH has to offer. The basic combat is fun, and I've enjoyed leveling up my toons. I've blown through mission after mission. Usually I don't read too much of the text, and I realize I probably miss out on some of the story and background for the various heroes and factions. It just seems that COX doesn't do a good job of letting you know what you should pay attention to and what you can just mindlessly blow through.
So I guess what I'm asking is, how do I get to the good stuff? Does it even exist? And by "good stuff" I'm talking about missions where you get to do things like interact with the major characters of the game. Custom missions that aren't in the same warehouse, tunnel, or research facility that i've seen 1000 times before, killing the same old enemies, etc, etc.
Are task forces like this? Is the "endgame" content like this? Maybe I'm just missing the boat, but my experience has just been endless generic mission after generic mission. It's good that there is so much content, but either I'm missing something or the game needs to do a much better job of providing some epic/immersive content AND guiding the players to it. A good example of how to do this the Lord of the Rings Online's "epic story" quest series. You start the epic series when you first log into your character as the tutorial is the prologue. As you play through the game, the epic quests take you through the different areas and contain the most important elements of the game's ongoing story. The quests are easily identifiable, so while you might blow through a lot of the game's more generic quests, with the epic quests you don't get caught off guard and realize you missed a bunch of important info and now are lost. -
on 1 TF mission there was a clockwork stuck completely inside a weall. u could hear him, but not target him. that sucked. we had to disband.