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Quote:This post wins the market forum. Bonus points for alluding to the commiseration spiral.When I see people complain about the high price of common salvage, I know they're talking about mid-range salvage. And when I see people reply that salvage is cheap, they're usually talking about top-range salvage. And as others have said, the reason why mid-range is expensive and top-range is dirt cheap is that everyone is playing their level 50s. And while it's obvious that some marketeers try to manipulate prices as much as they can, cheap stuff remains cheap because there's too much of it. (Chaos's experiment weeks ago to do away with all of the Demonic Threat Reports on the market affected prices for less than a full 24 hours I think, and we were back up in the thousands for sale in just another day or so.) And scarce stuff is mostly expensive not because of manipulation but because there's not very much of it.
The two big "problems with the market" are not problems with the market per se: 1) People are mostly playing level 50 characters, so mid-range stuff is hard to come by (this was true before Incarnates because leveling has become so fast over the years, but it's quadruply true right now) and 2) Rampant inflation due to much more influence being created than destroyed -- which is also exacerbated by people playing their level 50s.
But I also think that a large part of the problem is perception. If I complain about the market every time I have to pay 50,000 or 100,000 for a piece of common salvage, and all my friends do the same, then I can eventually get very upset about it. But really, if I'm playing my level 50's (as most people are), then 50,000 influence or infamy is not that big of a deal. I don't worry about it, and therefore I'm not depressed about that aspect of the game.
But this is the first game I've ever played where I feel I can make my characters as tough as possible, where I can have everything I'd ever want, and I don't have to be part of a 50-member elite raiding guild to do it. And that's because of the kind of market the game has.
Oh, and if you're not hip to the fact that high prices mean you can sell your drops for high prices, then I'm sorry, but you're not as veteran, expert, hardcore, or [insert appropriately irrelevant self-complimentary label] as you or your friends think you are. Yeah, I went there. -
Yeah, unfortunately the version with +range isn't permanent, though, if Dispari's guide is accurate. Seems kinda dumb to me, frankly; like a joke thrown in at the last minute by the devs:
"That's right, squishy types, we're finally giving you access to consistent mez protection after all of these years! ... *cough* But you're gonna have to give up every other useful bonus to get it on a permanent basis." *cough*
Lacking mez protection goes from being basically an uncounterable disadvantage to being a huge opportunity cost -- which I guess is progress, but still. My Tanker is giggling like a madman at his consistent ~60 HP/sec, which is layered on top of crazy defenses and the strongest full-time mez protection in the game. -
Quote:Hah, good catch. I added the Absolute Amazement to RoTP long after I'd put the Stupefy in Flashfire. You're definitely right about that; RoTP's just a mule -- situationally a very useful mule, but a mule nonetheless.heh heh
Things I liked about Obitus's Build #2:
- Fitting a full Stupefy set in there. I might have swapped the ROTP and Flashfire though - need much higher uptime in Flashfire.Will edit that one in.
Quote:- The two Hecas in Kick. Heh!
Quote:One thought - could swap the stealth IO out of Super Speed and into Sprint - could then move the BOTZs into Super Speed and drop Fly (unless you like Fly of course!). I might try that and then pick up Bonfire.
Sir, these are great foods for thought.
The Super Speed thing is one of those subjective play style things. After having played around endlessly with my Dom, I have a hard time dismissing the convenience of consolidating the Stealth IO with Super Speed; it's one click to enable/disable invisibility instead of two, and if I want to leave it on it costs less endurance than SS + Sprint. Edit: Oh, and Fly is just me being a concept *****. You could totally swap it out for Bonfire if you're okay with your vertical movement. The build you posted (the one with Super Jump and Super Speed) led me to believe that you might've wanted a little more ups than Super Speed alone would provide.
Finally, I'm grateful you liked the builds.Thanks for the feedback!
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Quote:Sorry I missed this earlier Doc. I hate to feel like I've co-opted your thread (and from the spammy series of posts I've just unleashed, I sure do feel that way!).I've updated the original post. I was able to get a softcapped S/L build (with Barrier) *much* closer to ideal. The only thing it loses is Fire Imps which are situational in much group content anyways. I think this is worth taking another look at. I basically stole many of the ideas posted by others in this thread to good effect 8-).
Anyway, it's a good build. I don't generally go for DEF builds with Barrier (for reasons already explained previously), but on reflection, Smash/Lethal is limited enough in scope that you'll still get a lot of benefit out of Barrier (to other types, IOW).
Given that you're already sitting on 43+% S/L DEF though, and planning to take Barrier (at worst a +5% bonus), I'd probably swap out the Enfeebled Operations in Cages for something more attack-ish (Posi's Blast, most likely). I'd also probably skip Ring altogether; if it's just an S/L DEF mule than you can probably get more bang-for-slot by fleshing out Maneuvers and Weave.
(Adding two Enzymes and taking all the slots out of Ring gives me 40.5% S/L DEF on your build so yeah. Four more slots to play with.)
Come to think of it, if you're dead-set on taking Concealment, then you might think about taking CJ instead of Maneuvers. It's less DEF, but it's way less End, too, and CJ provides considerable movement bonuses if you wanna be a melee-style Dominator. Maneuvers is useful as a DEF power, but it's more useful as a gateway to Tactics, and Vengeance.
All of that said, i'd probably ditch the Concealment pool, take CJ and Maneuvers, and find a way to shoe-horn two other Leadership powers. A lot of this stuff is subjective, though. Builds are largely determined by play style. it's a good build you've made. Nice job -
Quote:You've come to the dark side, then.I came to the conclusion that being able to go afk and maintain Domination isn't really that important to me, given Frenzy. Taking it to the absurd extreme, I can go afk every minute or two for 5 minutes at a time and always have Domination when I need it. What I think is more important is getting good slotting on my powers and a good level of defense. The insistence on that level of recharge was just a hangup of mine, but not having my powers well slotted or a build I really like would bother me more.
Good stuff. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
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Quote:Ok, a different version of the Fire/Fire/Ice, this time with a more Silas-ish slant: Imps is replaced by Combustion and Hoarfrost is replaced with Consume. The build is still soft-capped to Smash/Lethal and still at 32+% to ranged, and still at 20+% to all else. Recharge is at +112.5% before Hasten. Global damage is +20.3%.More quick and dirty:
All-around Fire/Fire/Ice:
[snip]
Anyway, this build has soft-capped S/L DEF, 32.6% Ranged DEF, 20+% DEF to all else, with ~111% in global recharge (before Hasten), ~20% in global damage. No Hover on this one, and on the downside you're gonna have to rely on Ninja Run for vertical movement; I only had room for the obligatory stealth-proc-equipped Super Speed, travel-power-wise.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
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melee bias: Level 50 Magic Dominator
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More quick and dirty:
All-around Fire/Fire/Ice: MengoMengo reminded me of a build I drew up a long time ago for Mind/Fire with soft-capped DEF to Ranged and Smash/Lethal/Energy, using Scorpion Shield. I ended up shelving the idea because I hate Mace Mastery. For some reason, the far more generally appealing Ice Mastery didn't even occur to me back then. (Or rather, it did occur to me, but I don't like the way Frozen Armor looks; regardless, from a mechanical perspective, Ice Mastery is a monster.
I can't even imagine what Sleet + Ice Storm + T4 Radial Reactive would be like. Rain of Fire with the Reactive boost is sick enough (as you can sorta tell from my previously posted video; I should probably jack up my difficulty and take another video focusing more on Rain's performance and less on just hovering around).
Anyway, this build has soft-capped S/L DEF, 32.6% Ranged DEF, 20+% DEF to all else, with ~111% in global recharge (before Hasten), ~20% in global damage. No Hover on this one, and on the downside you're gonna have to rely on Ninja Run for vertical movement; I only had room for the obligatory stealth-proc-equipped Super Speed, travel-power-wise.
You're almost certainly going to need Cardiac for this one. I probably wouldn't even bother running Tough either, but you could if you feel like ~17% S/L RES is gonna make a big difference. You could easily swap out Hoarfrost for Consume, come to think of it.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Assault
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery
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Quote:Quick and dirty.I'm gonna see if I can work up some alternatives that use different powers or have different goals, just for interests' sake.
Ranged soft-capped Fire/Fire/Fire: Not really thrilled with this one, but it'd certainly be effective. Fire Control is clearly at a disadvantage relative to Mind Control when it comes to efficient slotting of ranged DEF bonuses. Here I managed only +80% in global recharge (before Hasten).
You'd probably want to go with Cardiac on this one. The extra range enhancement alone is worth the price of entry, and endurance is gonna be spotty without Cardiac, especially if you wanna run Assault. If you do run Assault and Cardiac, then you're looking at ~53% S/L RES and ~23% in global damage.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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Could be run with Musculature (I prefer Radial to Core because the incidental +recovery is more valuable to me than the extra +dam, YMMV) or Cardiac. Has Imps but not Bonfire.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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Quote:Heh, well to be totally honest, your build's endurance is better than I originally thought. When I first did those numbers, I had Sprint on by accident, and then I kept forgetting to toggle off Assault.That's really interesting analysis of endurance usage. Hmmmm. May need to consider Cardio instead of Muscles? Hmmm, hmmm. I haven't thought about endurance like that ... ever. No wonder I'm always popping blues.
Also, that kind of slotting may make Hover worth using again - 40 mph is not bad at all - and wouldn't take too much incremental slotting what with moving slots out of Combat Jumping.
Long story short: once I realized my mistake and retuned the numbers, you came out surprisingly well. It's a very good build; I looked at it for awhile after writing out that endurance post and couldn't come up with any noticeable improvements that preserved your power selections. [Edit: There are very minor things, like swapping the slotting in Fire Ball and Rain, but that's not objectively an improvement; I just think you're better off lowering Ball's cooldown by ~2 seconds than you are lowering Rain's by ~4.)
I'm gonna see if I can work up some alternatives that use different powers or have different goals, just for interests' sake.
As far as Cardiac goes, it's a feel thing. Fortunately, there's nothing stopping you from picking up more than one Alpha if you want.
Oh, and here's a video showing perma-Hover, for anyone who's interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYiJVss6OQ -
Quote:I perma hover at around 40 mph on my Dom. It's noticeably slower than, say, Fly, but it can seem slow on occasion in missions, but objectively it's still faster than base Sprint speed. I did arguably have to waste a slot to increase Hover speed over and above what the two Blessings of the Zephyr were giving me, though.Haven't used Hover in a long time - used to six slot for flight speed prior to ED, but haven't used it in a while. I like Hover personally, but I'm not sure I could handle the slowness of in-combat speed as I remember it (been a while though so this could have changed). Would I need to find slots for Hover flight speed?
(Current slotting is one LoTG, two Blessing of the Zephyr, and one generic Fly IO, IIRC.)
Quote:I don't think I've ever actually tried to Hold an AV before with Char. Could be cool. Char's slotting in my build basically caps Hold / Recharge / Damage using the purple set and Musculature. Long way of saying that I currently use it as my 3rd attack. Chain of Blaze-Blast-Char (short pause ... like .3 seconds I think?)
Quote:This is going to be one of my unlimited budget builds. Currently only have two - this one and my Fire/Cold Corr. I stripped two toons last night to fund this. -
Quote:All righty. A few kind of preliminary things just to get my head in order, if you don't mind:Current thinking on the ranged build. I sampled liberally from at least seven of the builds in this thread then sprinkled a bit of my playstyle into it.
Any and all feedback appreciated.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
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Endurance usage: This is kind of the alpha and the omega of high end builds. Everyone's got a different subjective tolerance for endurance drain, but I think we can all agree that spending bajillions on a build lowers our tolerance for running dry. I can't simulate all of the situations you're likely to come up against, but I can use my handy-dandy attack chain spreadsheet to run through a couple of plausible scenarios.
First, a pure single-target attack scenario. You have a recovery rate of 3.68 EPS, plus the Performance Shifter and Panacea procs. Performance Shifter with 110 max End works out to 0.1 * 110 * 0.2 = 2.2 End per 10 seconds, or 0.22 EPS. Panacea works out to 0.075 * 110 * 0.2 = 1.65 End per 10 seconds, or 0.165 EPS. Total averaged recovery is 4.056 EPS.
Toggle drain (without Assault, but with Super Speed) is 1.34 EPS. Toggle drain without Super Speed is 0.89 EPS.
Your ranged attack chain is Blaze-Blast-Char-pause 0.505 seconds, for a total damage of 843.09 and a total end cost of 20.36 over 4.465 seconds. DPS = 188.82. Endurance drained per second from attacks is 4.56.
4.056 Recovery - 1.34 toggles - 4.56 attacks = -1.844 net EPS. Divided into 110 Max End, that gives us a time-to-zero of 59.65 seconds. Domination recharges (with Hasten) 72.4 seconds.
With just Assault toggled on (no Super Speed), your time-to-zero rises to 68.57 seconds, still just barely under the Domination-recharge threshold.
Without Super Speed or Assault toggled on, your time-to-zero rises to 78.9 seconds. Now you're good.
Multi-target salvo. This is just an attempt to simulate the typical approach to a large spawn. Assuming you open with Embrace of Fire, Flash Fire, Fire Cages, Fire Ball, Fire Breath, and Rain of Fire -- how much End will you have left?
The above approach costs 78.78 End over 10.956 seconds, or 7.19 EPS. During those 10.956 seconds, you recover 4.056 - 0.89 (toggle cost w/o Assault) = 3.166 EPS, or 34.62 endurance total, leaving you with 110 - 78.78 + 34.62 = 65.84 Endurance after your alpha strike.
If you were to use the above ST attack chain after our opening Salvo, you'd run dry in 65.84 / 1.394 = 47.2 seconds without Assault/SS toggled on, which isn't bad, but it gives an idea of just how much heavier the end drain can be in multi-target situations.
Anyway, that's a lot of rambling with no clear purpose. I'm going to try to aim for sustainable ST endurance -- that is, endurance that doesn't bottom out with non-stop single-target attacks until after Domination refreshes. That's not by any stretch a guarantee that you won't run dry; it isn't even necessarily an accurate representation of your in-game ST-attack performance, because ideally you'd work in Fireball and Embrace of Fire. Hopefully, you'll find the satisfaction of that standard sufficient, but these things are subjective.
If you end up with Assault, I'm also going to try to run with the assumption that you're running it. Seems a shame not to.
[Edit: Was using the wrong toggle costs at points. Doh] -
Quote:Ok, looking over the build now. A couple of (probably extraneous) questions:Build goals? Hmmmmmm.
- 32.5% Ranged Def or higher
- 100%+ Global Recharge; 170%+ with Hasten running
- 75%+ Global Accuracy (basically enough to hit +4s with the Kismet unique - don't want to take / run Tactics)
- Acceptable recovery (I'll leave that nebulous ... generally other people have higher standards here than me)
- Would like to keep Bonfire and Imps in the build if possible if only for purely sentimental reasons (sniff, love those little guys)
-How do you feel about Hover? Are you comfortable working in more-or-less perma-Hover? It's a nice thing to have on a ranged-DEF build and personally I find it thematically pleasing, but my preferences aren't everyone's.
-Do you care about being able to solo-stack enough Hold magnitude on AVs to perma-hold them? I ask because Char is basically your third-best ranged attack. Ring works as a proxy, but it would be easier just to use Char.
-Heh, I was going to ask about the budget, but it looks like money's no object.
Quote:Also, going to the game on Saturday night. -
Got a little distracted last night so no time for build spitballin'. The good news is that I have access to Mids' this morning (woot!). With that out of the way, a little catch up:
Quote:Yep, exactly. This is the problem I ran into with tweaking that build. Both tweaking the existing one and making a new one side by side with more radical changes, I couldn't find a way to get all the stats I wanted. Long story short, your build is really, really good and I like it
Quote:Tricky. The damage difference isn't that large, I'm wondering if it might be a better idea to go with the guaranteed damage option. Then again, the proc will add a nice spike when it goes off, I've already got the damn thing and its better DPS. Yeah, think I'll go with the Unbreak proc. Nice catch.
Quote:[Bonfire] does do comparable damgae to Fireball, but bear in mind its got a cast time thats three times as long and does the damage over 45s. Anyway, let me know. I'll see what I can do.
As Rad points out, though, both Imps and Bonfire are pretty good mules for a ranged-DEF build, especialy Imps. Any opportunity to slot a set that offers both recharge and DEF is worth its weight in gold (in this case, Expedient Reinforcement). -
Quote:Philly pride.I generally am of the opinion that builds aren't rocket science, but ... wow. These are awesome. I've been looking into respec'ing into /Fire for the Incarnate trials - /Mace is nice, but just doesn't offer enough to teams, IMO. Love the Tarantula, but the little guy's useless on teams, and the Imps are a borderline case.
This gave me a lot to think about, particularly the last builds from Obitus and Silas / Lifewind, which are world-class. I'm probably leaning more toward a 32.5% ranged build for playstyle issues. I just love blasting from a distance. Also avoids the end drain on Hot Feet, letting me run Musculature, which is nice for all the control powers that get underslotted for damage.
Anyway, you're very gracious. This sort of peer review and revision seems to make all the difference. I'm sure we're all happy to have you along for the party; are there any particular goals you have in mind besides the ranged DEF? If you're willing to accept that Domination will have to be juggled with Hasten, we might even be able to get you up to the ranged soft cap.
(That would be very similar to my Mind/Fire/Fire build, though Mind has a slightly better spread of available set bonuses, so no promises until I get my grubby little hands on a Mids' equipped computer tonight.) -
Quote:Well there you goWell, I just did the super-scientific test on my Stalker of hitting Frenzy, waiting a second, then hitting Hasten to see if Frenzy got any bigger. It didn't. I'm pretty sure the alignment powers aren't affected by recharge. Demonic is though, so that's okay
Quote:Back on topic, that damn Vengeance has thrown a spanner into the works. I really like the idea of it since its such a great power. I'm playing with the build you put together now, so far only thing I've changed is to take the HO from Hot Feet to put an Apoc Dam in Char. That bumps the damage up from 63.9 to 94.7, not bad. The all round hold stats aren't as good as with the Unbreakables in, but my global acc/recharge and Domination should make it moot. Having 5 Unbreakables and the Apoc Dam in Char would be perfect-world slotting, but I don't see a way to rejig the slotting to get that without losing recharge. ), so that leaves Fireball and Blaze. Among the available options, Char seemed like the best bet.
If you can only add one slot to Char, though, it's worth noting that the purple Hold proc should add slightly more over-time damage than the straight Damage enhancement from Apocalypse. Might be a little cheaper. -
Quote:You know, I can't say for sure now that you mention it. I guess I just assumed it was affected by global recharge because it's up far more often than I need it. It sure doesn't feel like 5-6 minutes (whatever the base cooldown is).Quick question though, since you said Frenzy would be up even faster for me. Are you sure Frenzy is affected by global recharge? I didn't think it was.
It wouldn't shock me if the devs made alignment powers immune to recharge. That seems to be en vogue, these days. Then again, there are a lot of Accolade/Booster/Temp powers that are affected by global recharge, so there's no conclusive precedent. When I next get a chance to log into the game, I'll see if I can time it. -
Quote:Your preferences tend to match mine, for what it's worth. But Silas has made it pretty clear that he's not terribly concerned about having a continuous ranged attack chain -- or at least, he's demonstrated that he's more concerned with keeping his hold slotted as a hold.The not having an extra ranged attack that does decent damage is a deal breaker with me on most of these builds. There are lots of times for tough encounters where do you don't want to be in melee range (even with a high defense build) in which case Incinerate becomes useless. What exactly are you guys planning on using as a ranged attack chain? You can somewhat fill in a few gaps occasionally with Fireball, but will be left with some pretty large holes in the attack chain or using extremely poorly slotted attacks. I guess if the build is for farming, this isn't such an issue.
And with Char slotted as a hold, his ranged DPS isn't going to be that much lower than someone else's with Char slotted as an attack. I don't have access to the numbers right now, but just as a very rough example, if we suppose that Char does ~50 damage unslotted, Blast does ~200 damage slotted, and Blaze does ~380 damage slotted -- and if we suppose that those attacks chain seamlessly (which they won't, but it's very very close) -- then:
With unslotted Char, you're dealing (50 + 200 + 380 damage) / (1.32 + 1.452 + 1.188 activation) = 159.09 DPS
With slotted Char, you're dealing (~100 + 200 + 380 damage) / (1.32 + 1.452 + 1.188) = 171.7 DPS. That's like an 8% difference.
That proportional difference drops further when you consider Embrace of Fire. It drops further still if you can position yourself so that the target is sitting at the very edge of Hot Feet's area (another ~15 DPS by itself). Toss on the occasional Fireball and the difference drops even more. As a bonus, you're stacking lots of hold magnitude on the target. -
Quote:I used the following: 200 seconds / 90 seconds = 2.222, or +122.2% global recharge.Now, Domination is a little screwy because Dom can still go off when the bar is dropping, so I'm not sure whether it'll work. From what I've seen of my own Doms with 125% rech, where I see the bar sometimes dropping a little as it goes off, I've got my doubts.
With 125% recharge, Domination recharges in 88.89, plus the 1.32 cast time is a cycle time of 90.21 seconds. Only a .5 second difference, not sure whether or not Dom will drop. Hrm. What numbers did you use to work out that Domination would still be perma without Hasten?
In principle, as long as the activation starts before the Domination bar collapses, the power should overlap just fine (and like you, I've witnessed that very thing several times). If all you're worried about is maintaining the power when you're not paying attention (or playing actively), then the autopower should work fine with 123% recharge.
More overlap would be great, but it's really only important in situations where you might be activating other powers to prevent Dom from refreshing the moment it's recharged. In those situations, presumably, you'll have Hasten going, which of course will increase the overlap cushion dramatically (20+ seconds, off the top of my head).
I can't say that I've ever played a Dominator with exactly +123.8% recharge, so there is a possibility of a practical quirk that invalidates my math. What I can say is that I have zero problems managing Hasten/Dom on a character with +95% in global recharge from IOs. Even when I do lapse, Frenzy is up often enough that I never have to worry about rebuilding the Dom bar. Frenzy will be up even faster for you.
The only times that Frenzy isn't sufficient to keep my Domination up full-time are really bad (exceedingly rare) team situations where I die (and resurrect) more than once in a very short period of time.
As always, YMMV. I can understand why you'd want to have absolutely iron-clad perma Domination. Put it this way: I'm 99% sure that 123.8% recharge will be enough for what you have in mind. -
Quote:I was referring to the built-in 20% RES debuff in Bruising. That debuff ignores the purple patch. If your whole team is wailing on an AV or whatever, the Tanker will tend to add at least as much damage as a single Scrapper or Brute. Couple that with the extra built-in survivability and aggro control, and frankly no matter how uber your team is, if I had to choose only one melee AT, it'd be a Tanker. His defenses might turn out to be overkill, but a Tanker gives you more redundancy for when the crap hits the fan.Most other TF's and trials, we speed them in record time without a tank. Sure a tank 'can' out damage a scrapper since he can survive more easily, but when you have teams with 3 buffers, 3 debuggers, 2 scrappers/brutes, unless you really need someone to pull aggro off others, you're good to go without a tank. The team buffs on our teams usually make worrying about the purple patch superflous.
Barrier Destiny is uber when stacked and staggered. Then again, it can't raise your RES cap, and the Incarnate-power argument swings both ways: with everyone packing a crashless nuke and an uber DPS pet, there's less need than ever for a team to seek damage output.
YMMV. Obviously, you can construct a team that can trivialize the contribution of almost any singular build. We play a game that doesn't strictly enforce AT roles, and that's a good thing. I'll say this, though: a single Tanker is most definitely not a crutch on an LRSF, where even the most buff-heavy team can find itself losing squishies in an eyeblink to unwanted aggro. A single Tanker is most definitely not a crutch against Tin Mage's Bobcat, who, as Arcana memorably pointed out, could solo Hamidon in record time if you found a way to orchestrate that fight.
The AT appears to be designed (at the moment) specifically for the hard-hitting, hard targets that most heavily resist debuffs. Whether that role benefits the teams you run, it is a useful role, certainly no less valuable than the role of any non-buff/debuff AT. I'm not surprised that your best time on an STF doesn't include a Tanker, but I also wouldn't bat an eyelash if you said the same thing about any other AT. What would surprise me is if you could demonstrate that replacing a Scrapper/Brute on your team with a single Tanker significantly lowers your run time.
TL;DR: Your criticism of Tankers in this thread just seems to me gratuitous, and if you truly weren't aware of Bruising, uninformed. Your criticisms could be leveraged at almost anything; cherry-picked team compositions don't say anything about general team attractiveness. -
Quote:I'm not entirely clear about what you're tyring to say here, so if my forthcoming disagreement misses the mark, then I apologize.Does this mean I'd start taking tanks on my teams now by choice versus illusion trolls or -resistance debuffers? Uh, no. A tank is still the same thing; a crutch for weak to moderate teams to avoid aggro - it still doesn't help dps as much as a scrapper or brute (assuming the same incarnate level/abilities), and is in fact even less needed now that everyone and their mother has barrier.
If all you're saying is that most of the teams you run would benefit more from an Illusion Controller and/or another strong buff/debuff build, then there's not much room to disagree. If you're saying that Tankers are categorically inferior to buff/debuff builds in teams, then I'd have to take issue. Moreover, if -- as you go on to imply -- you're saying that Tankers are categorically inferior to Scrappers and Brutes in teams, then that seems absurd. You make a point of talking up -RES debuffers, which is fine, but in case you weren't aware, let me remind you that nowadays, Tankers are RES debuffers in the situations where RES debuffs tend to matter most (against a single, hard target like an AV).
As team size rises, in fact, the offensive contribution of a Tanker with Bruising begins to outpace the offensive contribution of a Scrapper/Brute against a hard target. Granted, Bruising doesn't stack, so multiple Tankers may well seem superfluous, but there's an upside, too: Bruising ignores the purple patch.
Add to the above the obvious -- that Tankers have more stand-alone survivability and aggro control than any other AT -- and it's pretty clear that Tankers are at worst on the second tier of general team usefulness. In some of the higher-end content, in situations where even a fully buffed squishy can be two-shotted, where the foe is virtually immune to the defensive debuffs and/or controls at the team's disposal, a Tanker can be absolutely crucial. It's also worth noting that there are a growing number of situations in which the Tanker's much higher RES cap becomes relevant in the comparison versus Scrappers (most ATs, actually). Brutes have Tanker caps, but they also usually need more support. -
Quote:I did use Maneuvers for DEF, but Maneuvers is taken into account in the drain/recovery breakdown in the previous post. Even with Maneuvers, and even without the Panacea proc, my build's endurance situation is effectively equivalent to the other build's. (3.85 EPS recovery and 1.36 EPS drain versus 3.67 EPS recovery and 1.35 EPS drain -- so I net +0.17 EPS relative to the other build, but the other build's Panacea proc clocks in at ~0.17 EPS, offsetting my gain.)Sounds good Obitus, I'll take a look when I get home. Having Leadership instead of Concealment sounds good, having Vengeance is always nice. Are you using Maneuvers to get to the 32% def though or mainly as a LotG mule? I ask because Maneuvers is another kinda end heavy toggle.
That is, unless I missed something rather huge. The only toggle I included that I didn't mean for you to run full-time is Tactics, which is a mule for Rectified Reticle, and a buff for extreme situations, though frankly those situations are so rare I'd probably forget I even had Tactics and use Insights instead
(Oh, and I also shut off Sprint for the numbers above. Your build had Sprint on by default. Regardless, the relationship remains the same. If you're comfortable with one build's Recovery/drain, then you should be equally comfortable with the other's.)
Quote:I wouldn't worry too much about prices though, I've already spent a lot on this build a little more won't hurt, heh.
-
Quote:I'm with you. Blasters are the only AT (off the top of my head) that have access to Hot Feet without also having guaranteed access to a mag 4+ AoE immobilize, though. That's why I said I might be more interested in slotting it for slow if we were talking about Blasters. Then again, like you, I probably wouldn't take Hot Feet on a Blaster in the first place.I don't think Hot feet is a mediocre power w/o slow slotting for doms. I just wouldn't use it if I didn't have a aoe immobilize cuz if I remember correctly, Hot Feet has a fear effect ( as does ROF so that's fear patches x 2 :P )
Quote:If you look at both the powers in detail , Hot Feet and Combustion, one has a bigger AOE and can hit more trgts , while the other has a 5 feet smaller AOE and hits less trgts, but does way more dmg.. etc etc. I am pretty sure that the damage from Hot Feet will pale in comparsion to Combustion, but some peeps like their PBAOE toggles lol.
If I was slotting my fire/fire toon, and I was expecting to be all up in mobs, I would definitely take Combustion over Hot Feet, thats just my cup of tea. And if I did need to take Hot Feet, i would slot it full of procs, or just make it a IO mule for wht ever bonuses I needed. I definitely wouldn't slot it for slows.
In any case, I don't think Fire/Fire Doms should generally put themselves in a position where they have to make a mutually exclusive choice between the two powers. If you have a really tight build for whatever reason, then sure I guess, but as this thread demonstrates, there are very few build goals that can't be achieved in many different ways. -
Quote:Got a chance to look over the build in the above-quoted post, and it looks very good. Nice job to both Lifewind and Silas. However -- and I realize that this merry-go-round can go on foreverSo I really liked the look of Lifewinds build and what he got. I made the tiniest tweak to it (moved 2nd CJ slot to Weave for LotG def/end, same defense, less end drain), here's what I've got:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.94
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
[snipped for brevity]
Basically just dropped the second slot in CJ and moved it to Weave for a LotG def/end. Same defense numbers, somewhat less end drain.
I actually went ahead and compared the end drain numbers to what I'm currently running since Lifewinds build has more recovery. Current build drains 1.27 a second, 3.27 recovery, not counting the P.Shifter proc. Difference of 2.02, Lifewinds build has higher end drain (1.57) but more recovery (3.67) so the difference is 2.1 end/sec. Only a difference of .08, which isn't a big deal. I know my net recovery is actually significantly higher, due to the Shifter and Panacea procs, let alone the huge end/sec gain from Domination refilling my bar every 67 seconds.
His build also has the Panacea proc in it however. I'm aware this is really rough back-of-napkin math, what I'm getting at is that what I'm currently running is more than workable with Consume. Its up when I need it, its not a crutch power for me to function.
So that build gets what I wanted, both Combustion and Hecas in Incinerate. Hooray! I will arguably burn more endurance with AoEs since I have yet another one, but I think Combustion is pretty good DPE. If I wanted to go for Cardiac Core Paragon, I'd have even less end drain though I doubt I'll bother.
Other Incarnate stuff wise, I'll be going for the Rebirth Destiny. The heal and solid regen over time seems like it'd be best for this build rather than the massive spike but low over-time benefit from Barrier.
Anyone else have ideas/tweaks for the above build? I'm pretty satisfied with it but still welcome to ideas. I've really enjoyed this thread-- here's an alternative:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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- Basically the same S/L DEF (32.3% versus 32.2%), but higher DEF to all other types (19.1%, or within two small Lucks of the soft cap if you have the Inspiration-boosting Accolade).
- Basically the same S/L RES (54.4% versus 54.1%)
- 2.5% less global recharge (193.8% versus 196.3%). Effectively equivalent. Hasten is still permanent with 2 slots, and Domination still permanent even if you don't use Hasten.
- 3% less global damage (10% versus 13%).
- ~1% fewer hitponts (129% versus 130.1%)
- Better drain/recovery ratio (a net difference of 0.17 EPS before the Panacea proc is considered). Note that the over-time endurance benefit of the Panacea proc is (0.075 * 0.2 chance to fire * 112.25 Max End) / 10 second proc window = 0.168 EPS. Basically I've skipped the proc without losing any over-time recovery benefit, though I have added other, potentially expensive and/or hard-to-find enhancements to the build (a Gladiator's Armor RES/END, in Tough, which could reasonably be replaced with a little shuffling around, and three Enzymes). And yes, I included Maneuvers. I didn't include Tactics in the above calculation, because you shouldn't need or even want to run that unless you're in a very rare situation.
- Same global accuracy (96%).
Another thing is that I like to slot my AoE immobilize as an attack if I can get away with it. I admit that that sort of sloting scheme is more important on Controllers than Doms -- and it's clear that Silas will have more than enough AoE damage either way, but like the Concealment mules, this is just one of those things that I like to do out of principle. Anyway, Fire Cages' average damage goes from 19.7 to 50.11.
Finally -- and this is a much smaller thing -- I feel the slotting of Hot Feet is better now. The slotting of Char is very slightly worse -- lacking the purple damage proc and losing a teensy amount of hold duration -- but I figure you're going to be using Char situationally anyway. YMMV.
Cost might be an issue; I haven't looked at the market in anything like a serious way in quite awhile (used to play the market actively, but lost interest when details about I-20 were announced because I don't feel like running more than 2-3 characters through the Incarnate content anyway, and those builds are already finished). Still, I figure the Panacea proc is far more expensive than the extra Glad Armor, and the Enzymes, though very costly, will be partially offset by the fact that you don't need the two Ribosomes in Fire Shield. (Edit: Come to think of it, you'd also save some cash because you wouldn't need the fifth LoTG anymore, either.)
Whatever build you go with, I think you'll be playing a Cadillac. - Basically the same S/L DEF (32.3% versus 32.2%), but higher DEF to all other types (19.1%, or within two small Lucks of the soft cap if you have the Inspiration-boosting Accolade).
-
Quote:Except that GMs weren't as difficult to kill back then as they are now. It's hard to make any direct comparisons between player characters then and player characters now because the entire context was different -- but I think it's pretty clear that an IO-heavy build of the right type blows a pre-ED, HO build from the way back machine out of the water.I would solo tank seven or more GMs after a hami raid for the heck of it back in the day (on fire/mace), and dropping them was relatively easy with an all HO build before GDR & ED.
Now dropping an AV/GM is astonishing, which only furthers my contention that the very height of Incarnate and IO build you can attain today (as I have on the same fire/mace) would get the snuffing tore out of it by an 04- early-05 all HO'd build, rather easily. .
After all, there was no such thing as a soft-capped squishy. Hell, back then, there was no such thing as the soft cap, period. We had perma-Hasten out of the box, but we didn't have access to global recharge bonuses over and above Hasten, and since damage slotting was unconstrained, there was no recharge slotting worth discussing in most attacks (HOs gave you extra accuracy or extra mez along with damage, nothing else).
Some individual powers were obscenely powerful by today's standards back in the day (bugged Smoke Grenade, perma-unstoppable, perma-Elude, toggle Instant Healing, perma-Moment of Glory, and on and on), and I think it's fair to say that players, on average, delivered somewhat more damage than they do now. But IOs and now Incarnate powers add a depth of capability to every build that we could scarcely even conceive in the first year or two after the game's launch. -
Quote:Hey, different strokes. All else being equal, it is better to have slow enhancement than not. I've also agreed that your slotting scheme is probably the best one for the context of this thread. If your playstyle favors slow slotting more than mine does, then that's fine; I can't tell you you're wrong about your subjective preferences.Again, I think this is a matter of play style. I notice a significant, negative impact on Hot Feet when it isn't capped for slow. Often when I'm speeding through things, I won't bother using Fire Cages (especially when Flashfire isn't up) and just focus on DPS instead while relying on the mitigation and slow from Hot Feet. While RoF will help a bit with this, it isn't always up when I need it.
I don't think it's fair to say that Hot Feet is a mediocre power without slow slotting, is all. For Blasters, maybe. Doms and Controllers, no.