Nozybida

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I do hope there can be some middle ground where we can have a casual friendly game without it becoming pure pandering to the lowest common denominator.

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I would agree, without being quite so condescending.

I wouldn't want to see such a wide array of options for getting HO's though. Buying them? No, it just turns them into a regualr enhancement at that point that once you reach 47 you move from SO's to HO's like at 12 moving from TO to DO and at 22 moving from DO to SO.

I think the best solution is to simply segregate the upper level PvP brackets. Have modified and unmodified classes. That'll give the casual player a bracket to fight and excel in and the HO farmers a bracket to strut their stuff in without the casual player feeling forced to go farm for HO's or give up.

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As far as the arena is concerned, I was excited about it at first. The more I hear about it the less interested I become. When does Issue 5 come out again?

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Heh, my thoughts exactly.

The easiest solution to this problem would be to break the 45-50 range into two classes. A "Natural" class where PvP combat has a no HO restriction and an "Open" class where anything goes. That way you'll know whether or not the playing field is level or if you should be expecting to be fighting a player with better than average enhancements.

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If I were an amature race-car driver, in a class of races where anything went

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Well, see this is exactly why amature racing (or pro for that matter) are broken down into classes with very tight restrictions on what modifications are allowed to be made to the cars so as to ensure a level playing field. This is done so a racer can't come into a competion where his car so simply outclasses the rest that the outcome is all but a formality.

You happen to have the resources to work for your Hammi O's and I think you should be entitled to them. Pitting a hero fully outfitted with HO's against a hero with none or a few HO's is (really we'll have to wait and see but....) not really going to be much of a fight.

SG's who are able to farm Hammi and outfit the entire SG in HO's is going to seriously own a SG without those resources, and I doubt skill will have very much to do with it. That is the same reason why in racing a Top Fuel'er doesn't run with the Pro Stocks.

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Of course, I think they're just blowing smoke with the claim that there are other missions.

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Heh, and once again, everyone is already three steps behind. That is the real reason you'll never end PL'ing. This also illustrates your lack of knowledge about how things are actually happening. Herding isn't something specific to wolves. Resetting the mission isn't only applicable to this one mission.

*sigh* I might as well just quit wasting my time. Have fun complaining about the next "exploit" once it becomes known, becuase I'm certain that once again by the time you do find out about it and the devs "fix it" you'll already be behind the times.

Your arguments are pretty weak. Sorry, but there really isn't any other way to put it.

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If they could, then they would have been doing so already

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Most had, even before the timer was added. With the added disorient attacks and boosted resistances only people a step or two behind the fold were still herding wolves. Just wasn't worth the time investment considering there are easier mobs out there.

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most of them exploiters whining about the loophole being closed on them

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Nope, I'm compaining about the devs lack of understanding about why people herd and reset missions and lack of motivation to address that issue. They seem to have taken the easy route just to keep the PL whiners quiet.

People who simply want to PL and gain levels don't care if it is wolves, or freaks, or Council, or DE, or Malta, or Carnies, or whatever. Not one bit.

Does adding a timer to this single instance of a a mission do anything to address the reason why people were resetting and farming the mission? Not one bit.

How far are we willing to go to address this "problem"? Make PI a hazard zone thus not allowing +40 players to team with lower level friends a majority of the time? Are we willing to make all 40+ missions timed to stop mission resetting? Maybe we could completely overhaul the XP system to where mobs no longer give XP on a mission map and have the only XP for a mission come at "mission complete"?

How far exactly do we want to take this to stop something some people see as a problem? How much dev time should be preoccupied by these "problems" that could have been better spent addressing problems that actually effect a large number of players game experiences?

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Well I read what he said, and I read what you took out of context. I'm no fanboy, I just know when to recognize logical fallacies, and who's relying on them, Nozy.

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Well, since most of your post was rubbish that is a thinly veiled attempt to call me a liar, I'll just address this one point. Take a look at the following quotes and tell me how you reconsile them?

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Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.

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But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content.

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It simply doesn't add up.

Fact is, they did it to simply stop people from leveling quickly. Simple as that. I have no problem with the fact that they did it (anyone who wants to PL stopped with the wolves a long time ago) but don't come to the public forums and try to pass it off as some grand move to encourage people to have more fun. The stated goals, the changes made, and the results of those changes don't add up. They don't address the stated goal of encouraging people to enjoy the content or to stop people from leveling quickly through repeating "unfun" actions. All it does is slow people down in general.

The change won't even effect the group the change is targeted at. All it will really accomplish is to prevent those who are playing the game "the fun way" from completing the mission as intended.

If they want to clamp down on herding or PL'ing more power to 'em. if they want to encourage people to partake of the games actual content I'm all for that. i don't think applauding half [censored] measures is the way to do it though. The devs need to take the time and come up with some real solutions to make experiencing the content more rewarding then these "unfun" activiites.

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Never have I seen a regen die on AV and I have seen dozens of AVs fall to regen.

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Bwahahahaha. See you simply lost any credibility you had. Regen will drop in a heartbeat to most AV's. Shadowhunter, neuron, Antimatter, Dreck, Bobcat (if she crits), Night star, etc., etc. all have massive hits that can drop a regen scrapper, and a SR's scrapper as well if it hits, before you even know what happened. Sorry, but you shouldn't get into discussions if you don't have the foggiest clue what is the reality of the late game.

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If your scrapper gets Koed in one hit then you are playing a gimp scrapper.

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Well, if you consider a Regen scrappre with the HP accolades, Dull Pain, and 6 slotted tough getting one shotted gimp, then I guess you have the right to your own definition of gimp.

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Selling characters or influence or selling levels is something that should get an account banned and the person blacklisted from any game company.

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Well, I happen to agree with you here. When did I ever say anything about selling/buying anything on E-Bay?

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Risk vs. reward is a crap excuse.

AVs fall so easily to any build in a team unless someone is a screwup. And sadly powerleveling is the reason one finds a lot of screwups in the post 35+

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LOL, if you think the risk of getting our right one shotted equals the meager rewards of beating an AV, more power to you. As I said before, it's your right to think everything is fine, just seems like there are a lot of people who happen to disagree with you.

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I have played through the 40s as does 99% of the anti-powerleveling crowd. We know the reason why teaming is hard to do is because every frigging request to team is to do wolf missions.

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I can say I've never been blind invited to a wolf mission. I've been invited by people I know, and had met while playing through the game. Running wolf missions isn't something you see people going out recruiting for or advertising. I simply don't believe it is as wide spread as you seem to think it is. Most groups you see forming in PI are AV teams.

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Everyone who wants to do a shadow shard tf finds the amount of effort to get one going is a lot easier with the wolf timer in place.

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No, the reason no one does the SS TF's is because they are a pain in the [censored]. The SS in general is a pain in the [censored].

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The only AVs that are troublesome are Numina's alt and Dominatrix.

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Well that really depends a lot on your AT and build doesn't it. There are numerous AV's who have a PBAoE nuke that will one shot my scrapper. So if I am fighting an AV I either duck out mid fight or I pop a lot of lucks and hope for the best. If I get hit I die. Simple as that. So the risk of facing an av (debt, possible mulitple times) grossly out weighs the reward (late 40's an av defeat grouped is going to give you what? 6-10K XP?). Honestly AV's are really not worth the trouble of fighting them. Only reason I do at all is to complete my arcs.

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Grouping actually gets more xp then solo since the group bonus was increased and you get ten times as many mobs.

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Again, depends on the build. My scrapper can make more XP running mission solo with far less risk than when I team up. I team up often because I have a good group of SG mates that I enjoy playing with, even if it slows me down. Now my controller at 27 groups because yes, the XP is far better than trying solo. Though I have a feeling that'll change in a few levels.

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Funny that it only takes at most fourty hours to get from level 40-50 running missions and tfs.

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I dunno, I don't check how long each level takes me. And agan depends on how much time you can spend playing. To someone who can play 40 hours a week, maybe it doesn't seem so long. To someone who only plays an hour a week? Well I doubt they'll have to worry about the 40-50 climb.

I also find your estimate dubious at best. With missions set on Invincible, solo, I get just over half a bubble on the average mission. So 20 missions per level? I can run a mission in about 20 minutes. That is on average 6 1/2 to 7 hours per level, if you are constantly in a mission. So probably adding in travel time, badge hunting, LFT, conversing with friends, running to sell, running between contacts, lets say 10 hours a level. So 100 hours from 40-50 for running missions might be a better estimate.

Now if you are powering out levels in a hazard zone, non stop killing I'd say 40-50 is a decent estimate, but not for running missions.

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If anything the time it takes to get from level one to fifty has been reduced to under four hundred hours with mission and group xp as it is now.

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LMAO. I seriously doubt it. Again, maybe if your a power gamer, but I already have over 500 on a tanker that is only level 41. Now granted he was started long before the mission xp increase, and I honestly can say I never noticed the grouping bonus increase, that changes weren't that huge. Now the difficulty slider will certainly increase leveling speed for those that can handle the harder difficulty settings and maintain the same pace as before. Of course that depends on build/at/powers though.

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Getting into teams who wanted to do the content at 40+ took fraking forever due to wolf teams.

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I really don't believe wolf missions was the cause of this. Guess you'll find out, come back in two weeks and lets see if anyone finds it easier to team. I seriously doubt much will change because a timer got added to the wolf mission.

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If anything powerleveling reduces leveling speed.

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LOL, no. It just makes the time it takes you to level by comparison seem slower. Your actually leveling at the speed the devs intended. The PL'ers are simply going faster. They don't have any direct impact on your leveling speed.

I'm sorry, but PL'ing isn't the reason no one teams 40+ unless they are looking for AV help. It is a combination of risk outweighing reward for larger spawns and the large leveling requirements and the large debt possibilities.

I don't want to start writing a thesis here, anyone that has played through the better part of the 40's understands why no one teams. Like Statesman trumpets often. Risk should equal reward. In a lot of areas the risk greatly outweighs reward.

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Well at least your honest about mischaracterizing people.

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I wasn't mischaracterizing anything. If I say in the same sentence "some people like iced tea and some people dont, so I am going to outlaw iced tea because no one likes it" Don't you think that sounds just a little odd?

If the first statement is true then the second makes no sense.

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It's to combat rampant powerlevelling, not to "remove fun from people who enjoy powerlevelling."

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LOL, well the change to the wolf mission has utterly failed in that respect.

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This is where gross misrepresntation such as the kind you foster is revealed. Thanks for being honest about it.

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Again it is only a mischaracterization if you are a blind follower, taking the devs word as gospel without thinking about it for yourself.

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The problem with rampant powerlevelling is that it makes it hard for people like me and many others to legitimately group and do missions together.

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No what makes it hard to group and enjoy missions is the fact that grouping is simply not as profitable as soloing. The reason people are pl'ing is because the investment in running missions in terms of advancement is laughable. The reason people herd and reset missions is because the risk-vs-reward of facing a string of AV's mission after mission is simply out of whack.

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I would not be surprised to see the level difference for XP reviewed at some point in the future.

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I agree that it will be reviewed, I don't agree that it is a good thing. Like I said earlier, the devs are trying to slow down the leveling process, even if they are saying they don't care how fast you level. How many issues do the devs have to try and ride both sides of the fence on before you see the fallacy in their arguments?

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What I find hypocritical is that you admit you're being dishonest but expect anyone to take you seriously. Why would anyone want to try to argue what you twist? Not me.


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LOL, I'm not the one being dishonest here. Take the fanboi hat of for a minute, re-read what he said, and think about it. It is pretty plain to see.

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Nah I think it's just you that's being hypocritical. Maybe one day when you're ready for an honest conversation, you might have something to contribute. Right now, though, I think your comments at least have some comedic value.

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Well, if you don't mind following the path the devs lay before you without even thinking about why or the consequences of their actions more power to you. I'd rather think for myself though.

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I suspect we'll see a change in the XP level limit at some point. It might be 5 levels across the board or something, or maybe all purple mobs, regardless of how many levels above con they are, generate the same XP.

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I totally agree with this statement. I've been expecting it for a while now actually. Now do you think a change like this would be made because it is considered "unfun" to fight purples or because people are leveling too fast?

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Well that's why the purple patch came out right? Because it was "unfun" to fight +10 mobs.

I remember being level 10 and with a group of 9-11s in steel canyon and fighting (and defeating) a couple of level 20 family. That was completly "unfun".

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Ah, those were the days. People teamed because it was fun and profitable. Everyone had the chance to contribute. (Scrappers were kinda left out though since their defenses couldn't take the punishment).

Now people team only when they are forced to either by TF requirements or because they can't complete a mish. It is still far better xp to solo for the solo capable and the ability to actually contribute to a team falls off quickly once you hit that purple patch wall.

Oh well, those days are gone.

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I suspect we'll see a change in the XP level limit at some point. It might be 5 levels across the board or something, or maybe all purple mobs, regardless of how many levels above con they are, generate the same XP.

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I totally agree with this statement. I've been expecting it for a while now actually. Now do you think a change like this would be made because it is considered "unfun" to fight purples or because people are leveling too fast?

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You didn't answer the question jackass.

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Wow, what a great argument, I mean what can someone really say to that?

Like I said, I've had at least 3 times that I've had a set of contacts telling me to go see such and such, and such and such telling me to come back later.

Anyway, as any of that relates to wolf herding, does anyone really think the PL problem has been solved? Certainly I doubt any will herd wolfs anymore, good job there.

Where you replying to me? Okay then, let's knock these out one by one shall we.

You want to know what is silly? Complaining about lack of content when you bypass it to sell these [censored] powerleved alts on ebay.

I do think the lower level content is a bit thin, but I wasn't so much complaining about the content. In fact the entire reason I PL'ed my controller was to see the newly added content.

Guess what people powerlevel to sell characters.

Not I, and I suspect a lot of others like me.

If you go through the same mission five times stop playing the damn game or making alts and concentrate on a game.

If you don't want to play the content which is the missions, tfs, trials then don't play the game.

I've finished every Trial, every TF except the Positron one and the final Striga one, have every arc souvenir but one, have every mission badge, have all the exploration and history badges, completed my respec missions, completed about 75% of my defeat badges, have all the special event badges. Sorry, but I don't think this applies to me either.

Getting tells asking for powerleveling or not being able to get a team to fight AVs is why powerleveling gets fixed.

LOL, ignore the tells. Not hard to do. Don't respond, don't even bother typing in /ignore <name>. Just don't bother with 'em if it bothers you that much. In fact I can't reacall a single time I've gotten a blind tell asking me to PL them. Of course that might just be because scrappers are so gimpy.

As for getting an AV team together it can be tough to get teams together for a lot of things. Been trying for quite a while to get a team together for the final Striga TF and I serously doubt PL'ing is the reason I am still looking.

Explotiting a mission or anything in a game is wrong and is a violation of the EULA.

Again, how is resetting a mission an exploit? I just don't understand this one. Would you rather all missions be set so that once you accept it you only have X amount of time to complete it, and that once you actually enter it the mission is either do or die. No leaving to get inspirations, no logging out, no lost connections, no leaving to tp a friend to the door, no more anything. Once you enter you either finish the mission or fail. No longer can sk's accompany you on missions, only other players within +/- 3 levels of the mission holder can enter the mission. Even with all these ridiculous changes do you really think it would stop PL'ing?

People who powerlevel are not in the game for the long term. Most of them went to EQ and WOW and powerleveled their then slowly are coming back here.

This is the first and only MMO I've ever played and I don't plan on playing any others any time soon.

True gamers don't care about getting levels. You level fast enough as it is in this game.

That is definitely questionable. Levels is definitely a motivating force behind the design of this game. It is the only real way of marking progress. And there are definite patches of the game where this leveling slows down. Early mid 20's (depending on build), late 30's, late 40's, are all areas where the grind really sets in.

And how the hell can you run out of missions nowadays?

LOL

Tons of people who don't powerlevel at all find they have several contacts each level bracket that are still empty on the contact bar.

I can say this has never, ever happened to me. I have run out of available missions several times with my scrapper where I had to spend 1-1 1/2 levels street grinding or TF Cycling. Thank God for the Krackens that got me from 38 to 40 or I might have thrown in the towel.

Who the hell gives a damn if you got six level 50s?

No one. I would like to eventually have one though.

Go to another game if you get bored. Powerleveling or additional content won't solve your boredom.

Go to another game? Great argument. Here let's try it. "If you don't like herding go to another game!" PL'ing has certianly helped me enjoy the game more since I3 came out. It allowed me to enjoy the new content without having to grind through 20 odd levels of repeat missions.

And herding is the most boring thing ever. It is not exciting at all for anyone.

I'll use the main man's own words here for you to review. "Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree. "

Every tank I played and every tank I have ever seen fell asleep herding.

Then don't herd.

Fighting an AV at least you have a chance of dying. Herding wolves not so.

Maybe not for your tanker, but my scrapper has some pretty tight moments now and then.

BTW for those not too quick on the up take yellow=me, white=Idioteraser, and red=Statesman

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The real important thing is, in dealing with this minority in the population deemed to be a problem, are you harming the "fun" of the other (majority) of the players?

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Yep, again I agree with you. As even RR said himself it can be difficult to put an AV team together at times, then you actually have to defeat the AV, and the wolves, and click the glowies.

The time constraint is, as has been pointed out, not going to do a thing to curb PL'ing and only puts undue constraints on those who are just trying to finish a mission.

I really don't see what the devs were trying to accomplish here. If anything, they need to remove Shadowhunter from the mission to give people a shot beating him fairly and not miss out on a badge because of the timer. It is silly really.

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But Nozy it's not going to stop.

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Heh, exactly my point.

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For the die hard PLer, the whole act of...

1) finding a suitably repeatble and high-reward exploit
2) finding a way to use that exploit most efficiently
3) using that exploit to the best advantage, then repeating the process again...

...is the thrill of playing for these folks. You're using it as a tool to achieve an end. For the real PLer, the act itself is the end.

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I see what you are saying. Though I don't know if the word "exploit" would go hand in hand with PL'er. And on that matter, is reseting the wolf mission an exploit?

I seem to remember a red name in beta responding to this question. Is resetting a mission and repeating it an exploit? The answer was......No. It was even encouraged as a way to avoid street hunting and kill stealing.

So is herding the real exploit they were trying to fix here? Again I would say no. Adding a timer does nothing to stop the herding. And I don't think rounding up mobs would be considered an exploit anyway.

Now, combine that with the mobs stacking issues and you are starting to get something that resembles an exploit. By confusing the AI and taking advantage of geometery and lack of collision detection a playter is able to stack an unlimited amount of mobs into a tight space making ALL of them susceptible to AoE's. But of course again a timer does absolutely nothing to address this.

I really don't see why they even bothered. They didn't end the practice of mission resetting (a practice that was even endorsed at one point), they didn't address heding, or make fixes to a poor game mechanic. All they really did was give in to the Wolf Mission whiners, lol.

Maybe that was the real goal, Statesman was simply trying to get the whiners to quit PM'ing him about wolf exploits.

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I remember when you couldn't choose the destination when you got on the monorail. Instead you had to get off and back on at each stop.


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LoL....Nice one! That was a long time ago. You guys remember when you had to go through the Tutorial with EVERY alt you made?

Valdermic

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Hah, I remember when Temporary Invulnerability was actually temporary. (ie a click instead of a toggle)

/hopes this wasn't mentioned already since I didn't read the whole thread, just surfing the dev digest

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For someone who claims to have no problem with what he's done, you've gone to a lot of trouble to a) misrepresent him and b) insult him.

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No trouble at all really. What other reason is there to adjust the mission other than the fact that people were leveling alts faster than he (or maybe the accountants) cared for. As you said, he stated himself that not everyone finds the same things fun. Is it okay that people don't find the same things fun as long as he finds it fun?

You don't think it is a bit hypocritical to say "No two people find the same thing fun" and then say "I'm changing this because it's not fun"?

So either he being a hypocrite (I do not think this is the case) or he is trying to sugar coat the real reason behind it (people leveling too fast for his taste).

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If the devs took the time to make the game fun at all levels then I believe that most people would play the game instead of PL.

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Actually I have found the game to be quite fun at all levls, even the lower levevls. At least with the first 10 or 15 alts I made. I can only handle doing the same "Defeat all Skulls at the Rave" or "Save the Painting" mission so many times before I simply have had enough.

Now if the game were bursting with content and I could make 50 alts without doing the same 5 missions over and over again, then there would be no reason to PL since I'm a mission/badge/souvenir junkie.

Unfortunately this isn't currently the case, and I know they are always working to add more content, it doesn't grow on trees, till then though I'll continue to PL my alts past that phase of the game.

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SkunkWerks7: The flaw in this reasoning is that the whole philsophy of PLing is that the player doing it cares little for anyhting else but levels.

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This isn't quite true either. In fact my latest alt is a controller that I PL'ed through the lower content (and amazingly enough not a single wolf was invovled ) for the specific purpose of exploring the newly added Striga Isle content.

The reason I PL'ed through the lower levels is as stated above, been there done that before.

And huge props to the devs for Striga. The zone itself, the missions, the stories, all some of my favorite in the game.

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I think people misunderstand why developers interfere and make changes. I could care less how fast someone earns influence. But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content. Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.

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LOL, ah so since you have deemed it unfun then everyone must find it unfun as well. Now I have no problem if you fixed the mission because of the PL'ing and people were speeding their alts through the low levels. I'll just move on and if I feel the need PL alts on a different mission.

Don't try to cover it up with a "Gee this is an "unfun" activity". How does adding a timer make it fun? For that matter is it simply implausible that someone may find something fun that you don't?

Like I said, fix it or don't, doesn't bother me either way, but don't be disingenuous about it.

Hah, so is this seen as a give in to the forum whiners or a move to shut them up on the devs part? Seriously, after numerous boostings of wolves via increasing their resistances and givng them ranged status effects did anyone really still bother to herd them? I mean sure they were easy but there is easier XP than wolves out there. /e shrug

This should at least get some of the board calmed down till they catch wind of all the new PL tricks. Not that I partake or anything but if anyone who complained about the wolf missions thinks they just scored a victory well sorry to burst your bubble but all the hardcore PL'ers had already moved on from wolves when their resistances got boosted. All you did was make it harder to enjoy beating a tough AV.

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Origins - definitely.
Comic Con - definitely.
Wizard Worlds - definitely.
Gen Con - definitely.

Our great OCR team is going to post a convention calendar so that you can see when we'll be in your neck of the woods. Don't worry - I'll be going to cons in the Northeast, West, MidWest and Texas...

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Cool, I missed you guys the last time you were in Dallas. I'll have to make sure I make it this time so I can pester you about Comic Book Bricks face to face.

Heh, awesome looking avatar States' and about time!