Nova_Prime_II

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What I am trying to get at, is that you cannot make it so a level 2 will have any chance to hit a level 44. That level 44, whatever vice he has with the world, has earned his right at that level.

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I disagree, Bob has not earned any rights by leveling...This is Elitist thinking and is as mind poisoning as racism!

And why does anything bob earn while playing PvE entitle him to any advantages in PvP?

Plus this is not how it works in practice in PvE anyway. I have a 45th level tanker and if I want to keep leveling I still need to take on mobs +1 or +2 levels above me and they are no easier to defeat than when I was 22th level in fact fighting 24nd level mobs was easier than the 47th level mobs I have to fight now. Almost everything has Psy damage which mean my resist are basically useless and so many thing in the high level drain energy that toggle drops are even more likely not less. I also need to defeat about 100x more mobs to get the same % experience that I was getting a 22nd level. My point is that the game does not because easier and easier as you level in PvE where their is no rewards for fighting something > 4 level below you, So why should it be easy to fight lower level players in PvP.

Level should be meaningless in PvP! Level is an artificial device use to move the story lines along and is not needed or wanted in PvP.

If you want a large PvP communities than two thing are needed.

First Consensual only PvP (we have be promised that already)
Second a level Playing field which level scaling to target will provide. I'm not asking for any changes to PvE. I just want scaling applied to PvP.

All other PvP ideals can be added to the first two. If we have the first two then I’m ok will most of the others.

I have also heard allot of complaints that 40th toons don't want to see there ubor attacks only doing 70 point to a 10th level toon instead of 300 points, I can understand this, but there is an easy fix for this.

Just have the attack put up the big number 300 points but have the effect still be only 70 points to the 10th level toon. The high level toons can see their big numbers and see a noticeable drop in their opponents hit points and won't even know that they only did 70 points of actual damage.

Does that work?

With scaling level you can still have all your level restricted zones if you want or anything else for that matter. It will change nothing accept to make level meaningless in PvP.

Higher level toons will still have a big advantage, many more powers to choose from, more fully slotted powers, both defensive powers and attack powers developed, as well as a good travel power.

Low level toons will not have well develop powers, the will either be heavy def or offence but not both, and with few if any fully slotted powers, and possibly no travel power. High level toons will still have all the advantages they just won’t be gods.

Don't be elitist snobs, being high level and having a few low level toons give you a big challenge should not hurt your egos.

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When damage is scaled up or down similar to the way the monster code works, a small group of level 10 players can easily kill a level 50 player. For me, role playing means that there should be a small part of common sense somewhere, and damage scaling on this, um, scale, makes none. Second, if you imagine being the level 50 player, you might just feel a bit cheated and wonder why you cared about leveling up at all, as was already pointed out. I know I would.

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Hey everyone needs to stop being elites, being 30 levels higher than someone else does not make you special...

It means nothing more than that you have had more time to play the game. I have a 45th level tanker now and two 40th level scrapers along with 5 other lower alts, the tanker plus at least one scrapper will be 50th before CoV goes live and I don’t mind lower level players being scaled to my level. Having High level toons does not make me special or anyone else for that matter.

If you want a large PvP community then you will have to level the playing field, higher level toons should not be all that, it won't be fun.

Playing PvE allot should not give you any advantage when you start playing PvP So I say make level meaningless you will have more players to PvP with and since its consensual you can decline PvP against a lower level toon if you want and that’s cool too.

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And your last comment is what make me think your clueless. Do you really think that 40th level toons beating 10th level toons easily is a reward for playing an RPG?



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In PvP situations I've been in before, the higher level PvPer (generally) enjoyed ganking the lower levels as much as they could. Partly for the loot they could do the lower player out of, and partly because they were sadistic bullies who wouldn't stand a chance in a "fair" fight. So, for some, they would consider that a reward.

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That was my point even though it did not translate well, any 40th level toon that thinks beating a 10th level toon easely is fair/fun or what ever is a ganker/greifer

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you guys are so narrow minded. PvP is not 1v1. i dont know why people insist on 1v1 pvp because it IS boring no matter how you slice it.

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Whats great about the "monster code" idea is that it scales well for teams.

Think about a team of 8 heros level 8,41,25,15,17,22,31,12 against a team of villians level 9,40,16,24,18,50,7,13 guess what useing the "monster code" its a fair fight, and fun to the max...

Try and pull that off some other way

Its even comic bookie, just like when the bother hood of evil would attack the x-man they all had different power levels but it all worked at pretty even in the comics. I think Marvel uses the "new monster code" for all their PvP fights

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If there is a playfield-evening code, I'd like it to be for Arena matches only or for a chosen Player Nemesis.

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I have an Idea then, how about when arena's go live at update 4 they make half the arena's playfield-even code IE "new monster code" and the other half of the arena's standard and see which arena's get more business and for how long.
Just a thought...

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Is that fair?

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At the end of the day, the question I hope Lord Recluse, Statesman, and all the other devs ask of what ever PvP design they implement:

"Is that fun?" (and follow that up with, "for how long?")

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Ok, I accept that...But I need a sence of fair play to have fun and I don't think I'm alone in that...

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This would be about the worst pvp in the history of gaming, if we followed your suggestions.

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Worst then game like what, Unreal tournament? or worst than ghost recon, or all the other first person shooters that start everyone at the same level.

What doesn't work is PvP in an RPG because an RPG is all about gaining levels and those level make skill or design obsolete in a RPG PvP system.

Case and point before issue two release martial arts/reflex scrappers were supposed to be gimp and Spines/reg scrappers were supposed to be ubor. now if we put a ten year old with 2 days of game play on a poorly built 40th level martial/reflex scrapper and let him fight perfectly built 10th level spines/reg scrapper control by a 20 year old who has been playing scrappers since beta who would win?

Is that fair?

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Some offensive builds have all of their main attacks by level 4. (Dark Melee.) I think they should look at the sidekick system, when it comes to this. If you read the manual, it says that by levels of 10 there is a delination.

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This may be true but at ten level none of their attack powers are fully slotted and they have zero defenses... and no travel power while the 40th level toon has 5 attacks fully slotted, many defenses up and a working travel power. The level forty still has all the advantages.

Beside PvP is supposed to be consensual and everyone is saying that what they want is a challenge. This will mean that everyone can have a challenge no matter what level they are. What could possibly be better than that?

We should not be looking at PvP to be a new way to Power level or get some new accolade, but as a way to get some user base content into the game. And yes, to provide a challenge, but you provide a challenge by having a level playing field. I still think the new “monster code” will be the holy grail of MMORPG and PvP.

What’s better is that cryptic could be the first to do it and I know it will work, trust me…

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Thats EXACTLY what i'm trying to accomplish.

First off... its a level 40 vs level 10. Higher toon IS gonna win... unless the level 10 got a gang of his buddies, mapped out a strategy, then all jumped the 40 from behind. They might have a chance then.

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What will happen if your Idea is used is that most casual players and all low level players will opt out of PvP.

Because PvP is going to be consensual, and no one wants a fight that they can't win.

The power gamers and high level toons will then start complaining that there is no one left to PvP with and demand that the term consensual be changed, while the players who opt. out will demand a PvE only sever for them.

I have played many mmorpg with PvP and the players who prefer PvE always out number the PvP by at least 8 to 1.

If you want the majority of the user base to participate in PvP then your going to have to remove the enhernt advantage level makes, as distasteful as that might be to some.

Other wise the PvP groups are going to be really lonely really fast!

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What if it was one way - Damage scaled DOWN, but not up?

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This would be better than nothing but would not make PvP fun, this would still guarantee that the higher toon always won but would prolong the agony of the lower level toon, However if the lower level toon had a travel power at least this would give them a chance to run away if it was not a hold

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But I'd like to see PvP be fun with longstanding grudge matches and rumbles between myself and my playmates, regardless of how much PvE time we've put in to any particular character. You guys are providing tons of great PvE content, but the best PvP content is going to come in the form of a player controlled archnemesis complete with hammy RP. This relationship can't be maintained if my nemesis gets online three more times a week then I do for a couple weeks and gets two levels on me.

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Great post! Mine was clouded with anger, you spoke the Ideas I wanted to get across and did it with diplomacy.

5 stars for you

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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.

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I know your a Dev and I really appreciate when ever a Dev comments on the boards but If you believe your own words above then you don't have a clue about PvP in RPG's!

Lets just try and relate what you said above to the current PvE we have now. What does a 10th level hero do when he sees a 40th level mob? Runs like Heck. What will that 10th level hero do if that 40th level mob then chases him down and kills him over and over and over again. That's right, Lord Recluse he quits the game forever...

Ok, Ok, you have made PvP consensual only so that will never happen right? So lets look at the other side of the coin everyone knows that level make a huge difference in all RPG (if they don't they will two minutes after PvP goes live) so everyone make sure they never consent to PvP with anyone who is higher level to them so basically they will only fight toons their own level. Now the 10 level toon has many many opportunities every log to find someone 10th level to PvP with so he is therefore rewarded for being lower level, However the 40th level toon will find it hard to find other 40th level toons to PvP and in just a few days or weeks at most will find its is always the same players who will PvP with and So he gets bored and leaves the game forever...

And your last comment is what make me think your clueless. Do you really think that 40th level toons beating 10th level toons easily is a reward for playing an RPG?

You have actually made me mad, which is not an easy thing to do.

Congratulations

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NOWHERE in there did I say let the level 50's level equal the level 2. NOWHERE in there did I say the level 2 should do 500 damage to the level 50 with his power blast.

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That is true you did not, I did. I suggested that we use the same code for PvP as they are currently using on the test server for random "monster" appearing in zones. This code is being implemented to the test server to encourage hero's of all levels to fight random "monsters" together when they appear in zones, like the new Giant Octopus "monster" that is now appearing in Talos and IP.

I think it is working great and could be use in all PvP encounters to level the playing feild.

What usually kills PvP is greifing and lack of players. The new "monster code" as its been referred to would help solve both of these issues.

First it would discourage High level greifers from ganking low level players, and since all level toons could PvP with a semi level playing field you would have more players willing to try PvP. I think this could alone would double the number of players who would participate, add this to the fact that now every level could challenge every level and you just have more opportunity to engage in PvP.

High level toons would still have a big advantage, IE more powers to choose from and more slots in each power, but they could not one shot anyone and would have a chance, however slight, of being beating by a low level toon using the right tactics or just plain dumb luck.

Why would anyone (who is not a greifer) be against a level playing field for PvP regardless of level? I here everyone who is for PvP saying their reason are for more content and a better challenge and that is what I'm suggesting will provide. Even an Ubor 50th level player will be challenge in any PvP contest and will be able to play against all level toons giving him more opportunity to engage in PvP. The higher the level the toon the more they should want this because the player base becomes so small at the top that other wise they would have no one to Play against...

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if you make level artificially alter damage (as you guys seem to want) you all need to realize that you will pretty much have to be level 50 before you can consider pvping.. not sure if you guys have that through your head - is that what you really want?

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You sir, are obviously a goober if you think automatically scaling a 50th level toons damage down to 2nd level and automatically scaling up a 2nd level toons damage to 50th level makes it easier for the 50th level toon than the way its done now...

If your comment was serious then you are a serious loon...

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Hey! I looked through the previous posts but I couldn't find this. If this idea has already been brought up, I do apologize.

What if, in PVP, the calculation bonuses for being higher level than someone else (or penalties for being lower level, similarly) was either entirely eliminated or severely reduced?

The only real advantages you'd have for being higher level in PVP would be your naturally higher maximum health, number of powers, number of enhancement slots and quality of those enhancements. I feel those aspects alone make a higher level player well enough invulnerable to a lower level in a duel, but the lower level player would still be able to contribute a great deal to battles, as they wouldn't just be constantly missing someone a mere 5 levels above them. Side kicking in PVP would still benefit you in the form of more health.

This idea is in part coming from the idea of the sidekick system, and the fact that levels really are relative. I think this would be fun, as otherwise spread-level battles would feel skill-less and unfair, unfun for both parties, just like previous games such as DAoC where you had to hit cap level just to even consider entering PVP.

What do you think?

~Tyroie

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They can go one better than this, If they use the current "monster Code" that is now on the test server, hit points difference won't matter either. Currently on test server if a 20th level monster attack a 10th level hero his attacks are scale down to 10th level for damage and to-hit bonus and when the 10th level player attacks the 20th level monster his damage and to-hit bonus scales up to 20th level, so increase hit points are a wash. 20th level have more hit points than 10 level but now they take more damage from 10th levels attacks and 10 levels have less hit point than 20th level but now 10 level takes less damage from 20th levels attacks, Hit points difference because of level is a wash. If we add to this a code that lowers or raises the enhancements effectiveness by the level of player your attacking, IE if your attack someone less than 12th your enhancements effects are training if > 11th but < 22nd the effects are DO's and if > 21 the effects are SO then you have a perfectly level playing field with Higher level toons only having a slight advantage because of haveing more powers to choose from and having more slots in those powers, beside high level players should be more experience and therefore better players anyway.

This is how I would like to see PvP balance, and still keep it consensual also.

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PLUS - I'm spending more and more time on City of Villains.

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Oh Noooo...

Statesman's has gone over to the dark side...

TP foe will help nothing. When you TP someone you can see the effect comeing around you the smart players will start runing and guess what you can hit a moving target in melee. If you have a range immobilerzer like "spines scrappers" impale it will be easier to use super jumb than TP to get your impale off.

TP foe is not going to be helpfull in player vs player even if it works perfectly except for the all blaster ambush teams. 8 blaster get in a 70ft circle one of them uses TP foe to bring on opponent into the middle of the circle the other 7 blasters vaporize the opponent. OK that works for blaster teams but it does not work for melee fighters at all.

Thanks for the link, good read. It is much newer than the one I read before and I belive slightly different in its direction. Which is good that mean the Dev's are fluid with their Idea's and willing to adjust.

I'm still hopeing at the first release of PvP they will have it very restrictive hammer out the bugs and then open it up a little more. Repeat, Repeat , Repeat. I'm afraid of the jini getting out of the bottle an not being able to put it back in.

Besides balance issue's always mean a nerf for someone and nobody likes a nerf.....

That sound like the interview I read months ago and can't find any more, could you give us the link so I can read the whole thing please?

Thanking you in advance

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I'll say, are you people just plain bored, or what? You won't be paying two fees, it's been said a million times already that Statesman has made this bit of information known.

WAKE UP!

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Not true what statesman said was If it was up to him or criptic you would only pay one monthly fee for both games, and he would be fighting for just that. Then he said However, cryptic does not set priceing for the game or suppscription that NCsoft owned the marketing and destrabution and therefor NCsoft dicides on pricing issues, he would use his inflence in the hope of having only one monthly charge for both games but it was not up to him or criptic it's up to NCsoft.

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People, people, people...
Your NCSoft account management page says 'add new game'. It doesn't say 'create a new account for a new game'.
Your $15/month pays for whatever NCSoft games you have purchased and registered. Fair, since you can only play one of them at a time. Hence, the OP's concerns are unwarranted, as are the concerns of those that have filled 4 pages of this thread even after Lord Recluse's response set the OP's mind at ease in the second post.

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Lineage II is also one of those accounts you can manage on NCsoft. Are telling me you can play lineage II and City of Heroes and still pay one flat monthly fee of $14.95? I don't thinks so....

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Suppose they end up creating two game worlds that only 'touch' where PvP is enabled.

In that case I think it could be really interesting, and paying separately would not be anathema.

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I agree, that would be an interesting spin. I wouldnt be totally abhorrent towards that idea after I sat and thought outside the box for a second. Would I play COV? maybe. would I play them both at the same time? no.

but it would add more than just "factions" you could get some serious hate going on.

One thing I hope for, you cant create villans on the same server you ahve heroes on.

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This is exactly what they are doing two seperate games that touch only though PvP....

Please read this in full, its Statesman's Radio interview. It's long but will answer most of your questions.


http://mmoradio.gameamp.com/news/viewNews/390.php

But here are some basics.

Statesman said if it were up to him you will not have to pay more to use both games and he is going to fight for just that, However Cryptic does not make the marketing decitions NCsoft does and they might charge $14.95 each beacause thier are two seperate stand alone games.

Here's some basics.
Cov will be a stand alone game, (you will have to pay full price for it) you will not need a copy of CoH to play it, so even though it's said its an expansion game, it is not. Statesman has said you will never have to pay for an expansion to CoH’s because we pay a monthly fee to play.

Second: Statesman said that ALL Villain Arch Types Would Be Different than All Hero Arch Types... They are going to balance Villain AT's with Hero AT's, so they can't be the same.

Third: CoV will have it's own PvE content and they are not going to want Villains to start out a 50th and miss 49 levels of PvE content, that just crazy talk.

Fourth: Statesman said that Villains will be able to fight Villains and I believe that most PvP will be Villain vs Villain not Villain vs Hero. Hero vs Hero is going to be very limited maybe just arena's and danger rooms, However Hero vs villains will be much more but still limited to Base raids, Mission's, and some new Trail Zones.

Its sounds like to me that CoV will be a PvPers dream and CoH's will stay pretty much the same where you never have to do or even see PvP if you don't want to. Player villains are not going to be on the streets of Paragon City even though CoV suggest that on its cover.

The rumor is that CoV will be an exact copy of the zones from CoH except it will be from an alternate Universe kind of like the star trek show "mirror mirror" where kirks meets his evil twin. We have interdeminsional missions now, and that is how they are going to connect the two story lines. The two games will interact like I said though special missions, base raids and Trail zones that no one from CoH’s will ever have to do these PvP stuff if they do not want too.

You will be able to play CoV with-out ever meeting a Player control Hero and Vice Versa. I have the feeling, but do not know, That CoV will be slanted or even designed with PvP being the dominant style of play; and CoH's will be left PvE dominate so They can try and make everyone happy.

But just look at it from a money making system (which all MMORPG's really are) why would they want to make anyone start this new game at the end of the content where they can get bored and leave when they can have them run though the PvE and PvP content from the Beginning and keep them paying longer?

PvPers will love CoV's I have no doubts, and CoH's will benefit from the new PvP content with out changing the current PvE content. This is a win win for both sides...

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How about a title...

Expansion 3: A Council of War
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Ha....

You can be such a jerk, you know