Nalrok_AthZim
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:This is the second time someone has thrown an underhanded "The devs won't listen to the players" remark into the thread. I fail to understand how anyone could take that standpoint given the current developer team and what they've been doing for us.Originally Posted by Megajoule
Absolutely.
The thing is, if you expect either response to make any significant difference in editorial policy, my (pessimistic) opinion is that you're deluded. They'll keep doing things the way they want to, fan outcry be damned (or rather, simply ignored).
If that's NOT what you mean, please correct me. -
Whenever I specifically rant about the Greater Good.
I think I may have killed you all by now. -
Quote:Considering the leaked power descriptions of Psionic Melee have GOBS of -Recharge in them, the "ice won't work with Fury" thing holds even LESS water.Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
It doesn't sound like it, no. Actually, what they said was that if it ever gets ported to brutes, Ice Armor might end up being a "use at your own risk" set -- that phrase specifically was used. Basically, they're okay with it under-performing (if that's even really the case) as long as players who take it for concept reasons are aware it might be an under-performer mechanically. So, I guess in the same boat as something like Poison or Energy Melee or Any Blast Set That Isn't Fire now.
I really wish they'd made a better excuse for not porting Ice to Brutes so people would have latched on to something that made sense rather than something that's been mechanically shot down hundreds of times in the Brute forums. -
Quote:As I said before, I'd be happy if some of the "uber buffs" like Fortitude could be used at a reduced effectiveness.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I should have clarified that better.
You can't target yourself because if you could, it is doubtful the buffs in this game would be as potent as they are.
A self-buffing Empathy Defender who has Power Build Up would have:
Permanent beyond soft-capped defense, with no holes to any damage type or position.
170% recharge via Adrenaline Boost and Hasten, most likely permanent.
A better-than-Reconstruction heal available every 2 seconds or so with that much recharge.
Capped regeneration and recovery.
And now, they would have perma fast snipe without even bothering with Tactics or a Kismet.
Oh, and all that would be before you even took IOs into consideration.
That's why we can't target ourselves. I'm not even sure if the tech exists to change the effect of a power depending on who it is targeting, so if that isn't possible, then there is no way to allow us to self buff at a lesser power level without gutting the whole powerset.
You'll have to pardon my opinion here if it doesn't line up with your reasoning, but I don't find the above quoted post reason enough to justify locking a player out of so many powers in a set they want to play. I see far fewer Emp and Thermal Defenders than I do any other kind. I'm willing to put money on the notion that it's because Emp and Therm can only use THREE of their powers when not on a team. -
Quote:No doubt it would be faster, but that's not the same as "it doesn't work with Fury" which is the age-old dead-horse excuse that's been around the forums ever since Castle said it.Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Then why did they cut Ice Armor originally? Did Fury change, or was it just a lame excuse?
Also: just because you can generate max Fury with your attacks, wouldn't it be faster if you also got the Fury from attacks against you? And doesn't slow affect that? So Ice Armor (and Melee) would be weaker in terms of Fury generation than other sets that don't slow.
A good example of why that argument falls flat is Dark Armor. Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom place nearby enemies in a mezzed state-- literally unable to attack. THAT definitely impedes Fury generation and no one seems to have a problem with that.
EDIT: I've always said that if not being attacked is a hindrance to Fury generation, than killing enemies is the worst thing you could do for your Brute. Does that make sense? No, and neither does the "slow doesn't work with Fury" argument. -
Quote:This conversation has happened, been beaten to death, and is rotting. Ice does NOT IMPEDE FURY. If I can sit on a Brute with any powerset and punch a RWZ target dummy until I get max attainable Fury, then slows will NOT impede Fury.Originally Posted by Desi_Nova
Ice for brutes? does this mean that synapse has figured out a way to make the slows compatible with fury?
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Quote:Yes, two Emps buffing each other are incredibly powerful. Solo, over sixty percent of that powerset is unavailable to them. Kind of sucks to be an Empath when you have no one to team with.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Look at how powerful 2 Empathy/Anything Defenders are when buffing each other.
Now remove the second player.
That's why.
Even allowing support sets to buff themselves at a reduced effectiveness would be enough, however, that's not the overarching theme of this thread. The theme of this thread is that "Cannot Target Self" is a very old design choice that, given the nature of the game and how it's changed in recent years, is archaic and does nothing for playability. I think it'd land in the same general area as the Kheldian flight/teleport lockout Synapse has lifted for I24 (note: please do not say I'm comparing apples to apples here, because I most certainly am not). -
Small idea: The new animation used for Inner Will could be used for self buffs like Speed Boost, Heal Other, etc.
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Quote:But hey, you sass that hoopy Arbiter Hawk? Now there's a frood who knows where his towel is.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Darn that Lumpy Space Zwillinger, it's always ruining things with its lumpiness and sandwich obsessions.
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I'm still confused as to why this limitation hasn't been lifted yet, considering the recent lift of the Teleport/Flight pool ban for Kheldians on the Beta Server.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Rufus T Fyrfly
You guys quack me up.Quote:Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
This thread quacks me up.
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Quote:Considering that the Purple Triangles don't really become common until late game on major teams, I don't think this is enough to keep the lack of self-targeting the way it is. EBs/AVs do not the whole game make.Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Debuffers currently do pay for their self-buffing to some degree against AV's and Elite Bosses with purple triangles.
Radiation Infection wont provide the team the same margin of safety that Force Field or Cold shields do in that situation.
Whether that's enough to balance the inability to self-buff, I'm not sure. -
For point and reference (sorry about the enormous post size):
Support Set Soloability Chart
This color indicates a power is usable when solo
Quote:Cold Domination
Infrigidate
Ice Shield
Snow Storm
Glacial Shield
Frostwork
Arctic Fog
Benumb
Sleet
Heat LossQuote:Dark Miasma
Twilight Grasp
Tar Patch
Darkest Night
Howling Twilight
Shadow Fall
Fearsome Stare
Petrifying Gaze
Black Hole
Dark ServantQuote:Empathy
Healing Aura
Heal Other
Absorb Pain
Resurrect
Clear Mind
Fortitude
Recovery Aura
Regeneration Aura
Adrenalin BoostQuote:Force Field
Personal Force Field
Deflection Shield
Force Bolt
Insulation Shield
Detention Field
Dispersion Bubble
Repulsion Field
Repulsion Bomb
Force BubbleQuote:Kinetics
Transfusion
Siphon Power
Repel
Siphon Speed
Increase Density
Speed Boost
Inertial Reduction
Transference
Fulcrum ShiftQuote:Nature Affinity
Corrosive Enzymes
Regrowth
Wild Growth
Spore Cloud
Lifegiving Spores
Wild Bastion
Rebirth
Entangling Aura
OvergrowthQuote:Pain Domination
Nullify Pain
Soothe
Share Pain
Conduit of Pain
Enforced Morale
Soothing Aura/Suppress Pain
World of Pain
Anguishing Cry
PainbringerQuote:Poison
Alkaloid
Envenom
Weaken
Neurotoxic Breath
Elixir of Life
Antidote
Paralytic Poison
Poison Trap
Venomous Gas/Noxious GasQuote:Radiation Emission
Radiant Aura
Radiation Infection
Accelerate Metabolism
Enervating Field
Mutation
Lingering Radiation
Choking Cloud
Fallout
EM PulseQuote:Sonic Resonance
Sonic Siphon
Sonic Barrier
Sonic Haven
Sonic Cage
Disruption Field
Sonic Dispersion
Sonic Repulsion
Clarity
LiquefyQuote:Storm Summoning
Gale
O2 Boost
Snow Storm
Steamy Mist
Freezing Rain
Hurricane
Thunder Clap
Tornado
Lightning StormQuote:Thermal Radiation
Warmth
Thermal Shield
Cauterize
Plasma Shield
Power of the Phoenix
Thaw
Forge
Heat Exhaustion
Melt ArmorQuote:Time Manipulation
Time Crawl
Temporal Mending
Time's Juncture
Temporal Selection
Distortion Field
Time Stop
Farsight
Slowed Response
Chrono ShiftQuote:Traps
Web Grenade
Caltrops
Triage Beacon
Acid Mortar
Force Field Generator
Poison Trap
Seeker Drones
Trip Mine
Time BombThe pattern I've noticed here is that the more inclined a support set is to healing and/or buffing (newer sets like Time and Nature notwithstanding) the less powers it gets to use solo. That seems a little unfair considering that debuff-heavy support sets have most-if-not-all of their powers available for solo play.Quote:Trick Arrow
Entangling Arrow
Flash Arrow
Glue Arrow
Ice Arrow
Poison Gas Arrow
Acid Arrow
Disruption Arrow
Oil Slick Arrow
EMP Arrow -
Quote:Yep! Which might make the notion of Emp only being able to use 3 of its powers without a team a bit more hard-hitting! XDOriginally Posted by JayboH
Oh crap, I thought you were talking about self-useable buffs.
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Quote:Sonic has four powers usable while solo: Sonic Siphon, Sonic Cage, Sonic Dispersion and Liquefy. They'd get a great deal of benefit as well.Originally Posted by JayboH
Yeah there is only one for sonic resonance.
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Quote:I personally think Empaths would benefit the most from the ability to target themselves. They'd go from having three usable powers to at least six (assuming Absorb Pain is left alone-- it'd defeat its own purpose if you could cast it on yourself).Originally Posted by JayboH
It's a tricky balance, no doubt. I'd think we would see more forcefield and sonic resonance defenders for sure, if this was ever changed. Forcefield would be able to softcap themselves with just SOs and sonic would be resistance capped with epic armors, probably - I'm thinking defenders when I discuss this topic by the way.
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Quote:... durrrrrrr. Sorry about that. To clarify, I DO think we should all team! However, I don't think the game's powers should be balanced around that in the "Cannot target self" mechanic; there's no real reason (that I can see anyway) that support characters aren't able to buff or use single target heals on themselves.Originally Posted by JayboH
Uh, I did, and you completely agreed with me:
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Quote:Who said we needed anything?Originally Posted by JayboH
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
I think allowing support AT's to buff themselves would make the ATs much more attractive to players than they are now. Hell, five out of eight powers in Empathy can't be used on the caster, which means if you're going to solo, you might as well forget about rolling that set unless you're a Controller. -
To build on the whole "no tankmage" point of view, I have a hard time viewing Defenders/Corruptors as tankmages even if they were allowed to buff themselves. We technically already have tankmage-like power combinations in Controllers (Dark/Rad, anyone?) and a literal take on that notion in Crab Spiders.
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Quote:Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. But I feel like Buff sets should be applicable to those who use them, not restricted to "use only when on a team." Sure, that encourages more teaming, but for people who primarily solo those powers are essentially useless, and that's no fun.Originally Posted by JayboH
Ehhh I'm on the fence with this one. If there is anything this game needs to keep promoting, it is teaming with other players. Brutes are the tankmages in this game as it is, at least, that's how it seems much of the time. I think there should be a strong need for a defender on a team, as an example.
EDIT: In an RP setting, this lockout gets especially hilarious. For some reason the /Poison Corruptor can't figure out how to hit himself in the face with Alkaloid. :P -
Quote:Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Miller.Originally Posted by Positron
Funny enough, this decision was made long before even I worked on City of Heroes.
I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves).
The reason I asked is, one of Hawk's big points with Nature Affinity was that he "ensured almost all of the powers could be used while solo." That got me to thinking about just how many buff-set powers are locked out of being used on their users.
A further question would be, what would the likelihood of this design implementation being revoked come out to? I figure, conceptually, that a Thermal Defender should have the ability to use their own shields to protect themselves. The same goes for Empathy: why can't you grant yourself Fortitude, or heal yourself in an emergency? Understandably, powers like Absorb Pain would still be others-only due to the -healing. It doesn't make sense to me that so many buffs are behind lock and key to the person who makes use of them. -
Quote:... and simultaneously crapping on anyone who played a Praetorian other than Resistance Warden.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, I didn't want to give him the impression that the devs might have added the largest every storyline to the game so far, with content covering all levels, and using normal story arcs, single player morality missions, personal story missions, Task Forces, Incarnate arcs and Incarnate Trials to tell an epic story of an inter-dimensional war, the liberation of an entire population from the grip of a fascist dictatorship planning to conquer the multiverse and the destruciton of a whole world.
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"Cannot target yourself."
Why is this? -
Quote:And Smoke Flash.Originally Posted by Agent White
Well it's just the reverse of converting a normal armor set over to stalkers, something has to be taken out for hide and he mentioned changing caltrops.
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I don't get the Ninjitsu for Scrappers crowd. The thematic powers just don't work, and at least 2 would need to be changed.