Moridin_

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This is not an arguable topic (although I'm sure someone will try ). The only difference between Blaster Ranged attacks and Scrapper Melee attacks is .... how they are slotted.


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Actually there are a few other important differences. One of those blaster attacks is interruptible which can make it problematic to use. Scrappers entry level attacks typically have a shorter activation then the blaster equivalent, blasters typically have one less single target attack, and finally scrappers can supplement their attacks by taking attacks from the power pool, an option that isn’t open to blasters who wish to remain at range.

The end result is that even though scrapper and blaster attacks are very comparable on a one for one basis (as they should be IMO) once you get to higher levels and can slot up those extra attacks scrappers end up with a superior attack chain and do more damage as a result. This is true even before critical hits and damage caps some into play.

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It's called Dominate/Mesmerize. 2 differnet ranged, 10+ damage attacks.
Oh, and perma-sleep. I arrested Hellions all afternoon.

Sure, the damage doesn't scale, and yes, the teens will suck, but from 1-9th or so you'll do Scrapper damage with less risk.


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With the correct power selection controllers can do ok, which is exactly what I said.

Neither is really at any risk; however the controller will simply will not keep up to a scrapper over that stretch because they do significantly less damage. While the controller is using dominate and mesmerize the scrapper can be using shadow maul and smite. These are a no contest win for the scrapper.

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i looked at your suggestions for blasters on the other thread and I found them borderline ridiculous. You uniformely want everything imporved without a single concession in power.


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LOL! How can you possibly improve an AT if you take something away for everything you give it?

When you are nerfing an AT you can’t do so by giving something back for everything you take away, and when you are building them up you can’t take something away for everything you give it, that just leads to maintaining the status quo and that isn’t what people are looking for.

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When a red name comes on and says that we ran 100 team missions for 20 different lvl ranges and all 6 blaster primaries got outdamaged everytime, then come back to me. Until then it is propoganda.

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Why do I get the feeling that even that would not be enough for you. It’s already been pointed out that statesman himself has already said scrappers are the highest damage AT, now you demand he come here and prove to your satisfaction that that in fact is the case and if he does not simply expect us to assume otherwise.

Furthermore, a damage AT that is designed to be the most vulnerable in the game and have few other contributions to make should never be out-damaged. If it happens even once something is wrong. If you can find a set that isn’t out-damaged great but that still does not mean there is no problem.

Finally, why would we have to assume your perception of blaster damage is the correct until proved otherwise to your satisfaction? What makes you so special that you are the final word on whether or not blasters do sufficient damage? Considering that it’s becoming quite clear you haven’t even played the AT to a high level, and possibly haven’t even played any AT to a high level while the people you are arguing with have played 3-5 different AT’s all the way to 50.

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What do scrappers have to do with blasters? This whole AT envy situation is nonsense.


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In case you haven’t noticed they fight the same mobs and have the same role on teams. It is not “AT envy” to expect them to be able to do so equally.

Frankly this line smacks of “I know scrappers are fundamentally more powerful but I play a scrapper so I want to avoid people calling attention to that fact so it will not change”.

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First off, it wasn't fine for scrappers. It got me killed by even lvl bosses.


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Shrug, my regain scrapper didn’t even have IH yet and I forgot about the changes to bosses until someone mentioned them 3 days after they went live even though I have killed at least a dozen mission bosses.

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Outside of PvP I don't subscribe to this type of approach to the game. I don't care what tankers can do. I don't care what pet controllers can do as long as I feel like I'm useful, have a unique role, and have the tools to do my job.


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You realize you are contradicting yourself don’t you? If your AT’s role is damage and you are playing with a fire tank and fire controller you are not going to feel useful because they will not even notice the damage you bring to the team. You may have a role but it isn’t unique and you will not be the one performing it and you can’t even begin to quantify the lack without referencing these other AT’s.

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You proclaimed the solution to be increasing mob strength. Not bringing Scrappers in-line with the "world" they're playing in. Not even bringing non-Scrappers in-line with what Scrappers can do. You proclaimed the solution was to increase mob strength. And when people had a problem with this solution, a solution that was fine for Scrappers yet kicked the rest of us in the yam-bag, it was their fault for not having the keen grasp of gaming dynamics that you have.


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Interestingly the reason for this comes pretty clear with the recent problems they had in the test environment. The purple patch wasn’t being applied to character damage so it was actually possible to kill +7 mobs effectively. Other purple patch elements like acc were still in place. In this environment scrappers were still blowing through large numbers of +7 mobs.

IOW the only thing keeping scrappers from killing really high level mobs is the purple patch. Make every mob 3 levels higher and the scrappers and probably the tankers will not even notice, since it isn’t the difficulty of the mobs that keep them from taking on higher level mobs it’s the soft cap of the purple patch.

Everyone else who isn’t bumping into the purple patch is going to be hurt but the AT’s like tank and scrapper that are bumping into it take a big hit.

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Optimal conditions for the blaster are dumpster full of an infinite number of held mobs. Is there some power that does more damage than Nova at damage cap?


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A fire tankers Burn does 60% of Nova’s damage per use and can be used 1600% more often. It can also be used twice in the time it takes for a blaster to even start recovering end from a nova. Over the long run it’s doing 10 times the damage Nova does under these circumstances, care to try again?

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so your contention is that no matter the situation, the build, the player skill involved, no AT but Blaster should top the Punisher list?


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Are you trying to imply that scrappers tankers and controllers top these lists because of their superior skill, because as someone who has played all four to high levels the only one that comes close to blasters in skill requirement are controllers.

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Yes. Being able to hold or immobilize a mob and then blast him makes for safe easy killing. Go a play a controller. Low lvls are extremely easy for all builds that can avoid melee. But obviously it slopes off. Depending on builds, it may get harder sooner rather than later.


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I happen to have a controller and a level 50 one at that. With the right power selection and slotting you can solo at a modest pace from 1 – 10, with the wrong power selection you can barely kill a single mob before running out of end. Under no circumstances can you compare to a scrapper at those levels.
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Okay...this statement right here shows that you are clueless. If I can herd 1000 mobs in 10 minutes and do 1 point of damage per second (translation, 1000 hps/sec)...I'm going to out damage anyone who can only do 10 points per second to single targets. Hands. Down.


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I’m clueless, I’m sorry but you are spouting irrelevant garbage and you have the nerve to call me clueless? Read what I said again and perhaps get yourself a clue. It does not matter why a tank is out damaging a blaster. If it ever happens it’s broken plain and simple. We know what tanks out damage blasters that does not make it right.

(BTW, level 50 tank here as well)

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Has anyone done any datamining to show who does more damage on average in a team from lvls 1-50? Is it blasters or scrappers? Why do I get the feeling it's blasters?


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I am pretty sure that the Dev's have the numbers. The fact that Statesman did not come out and say that blasters deal more damage than scrappers kind throws your assumption in some murky waters.



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Actually, if you go back the addition of critical he said outright that these made scrappers the highest damage AT.

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To be fair, he said "highest single target damage, but he still did say that.

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Nope, he said highest damage, no mention of single target though most people assumed he couldn’t possibly be including the AoE damage the fire and AR sets can deliver.

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The fact that people can do more damage than a blasters over a given period of time can have nothing to do with who has more damaging attacks. It's about herding and regeneration i.e. health and endurance. Again, you are misapplying stats.


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No you are the one misapplying states. It does not matter one damn bit why a tank or scrapper is doing more damage. What doesn’t matter is how much damage your attacks do if at the end of the day everyone has done more damage them you and compared to them you have nothing to offer but damage.

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And let me offer you some reality Concern. From lvls 1-16..maybe even as high as 20...scrappers are pretty mediocre. Seems that blasters are far better at soloing. In fact, controllers seem to solo better than scrappers from lvls 1-10. But you dont' see scrappers pissing and moaning about it do you?


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Are you serious? There is no way a controller solos as well as a scrapper from level 1-10. Furthermore we were treated to 9 whole months of incessant scrapper whining, despite the fact they were already vastly superior to every other AT.

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Has anyone done any datamining to show who does more damage on average in a team from lvls 1-50? Is it blasters or scrappers? Why do I get the feeling it's blasters?


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I am pretty sure that the Dev's have the numbers. The fact that Statesman did not come out and say that blasters deal more damage than scrappers kind throws your assumption in some murky waters.



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Actually, if you go back the addition of critical he said outright that these made scrappers the highest damage AT.

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But this is my point! Why does multiplayer = team only and not team optional? Why? How is that better? Is that definition unchallengeable?


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Because multiplayer all by yourself is oxymoronic. If there is nothing for multiple players is isn’t multiplayer by definition. Or perhaps you have some strange new definition for multiple.

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I don't see how saying it's an MMO equates to 'you must team'. If this is part of the 'definition' of MMO, then I challenge the definition or the reasoning. Why is it that MMO means mandated team-only stuff? Where is this written in stone?


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Read my previous post. If a game doesn’t include team only stuff then making it into an MMO is just a needless cost that makes it more expensive to play. In fact most people would agree that if a game doesn’t include team activities it simply isn’t an MMO, so by extension if you take all the team tasks and make them solo tasks the game is no longer an MMO.

There is a vast difference between saying you must team and you must team to explore this piece of content. As long you are not forced to do any of the team content you are not being told “you must team” full stop. The devs in this game have committed to not forcing you to do team content and give you considerable soloable content as well. In short they are simply not telling anyone “you must team” as you want us to believe.

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But I hate having to team for any reason.


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Then don’t. If you don’t want to team then don’t do the content aimed at teams, no one is forcing you to.

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So tell me if this is a good idea. I go to a place with nice sized mobs around +2 or +3 my lvl maybe higher and send in my pets while im phase shifted (pets first) and let them do the work and not worry? does that sound like a good tactic or a bad one for soloing? i just hit 35 so 36 is kinda far away but maybe i could do something along those lines.


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You can probably get by like this, but in general if you don’t support your pets they are going to get beat up pretty badly and do things like chase mobs into nearby spawns and get wiped out.

It will be much more effective if you lead off with your control powers and generally keep the mobs helpless and in one place, then follow up with freezing rain to increase the damage the mobs take. This will allow your pets will dispatch them a lot more easily.

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I have to disagree here. My first to main characters were both ones that had a substantial weakness at soloing, either being squishy or not being a solid damage-dealer. Maybe our concept of "reasonable time" is different, but the time it takes for a Emp/Rad Defender to solo a mish......


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I think the issue 3 changes make a difference. There are some sets out there that are just not going to have all kinds of trouble taking down a boss solo, but this is as it should be. In my opinion more sets should have this kind of trouble fighting a boss one on one. Preventing these bosses from spawning if you are solo does make things a lot easier for a number of sets as will the ability to cancel a mission.

What I was referring to, however was the time taken to complete a mission. There is no set in any AT that can’t be built to complete a typical mission in 20-30 min and the largest maps in 45-60 min. This is well within the reach of a casual player. This doesn’t mean everyone in those AT will have builds that can do this, it is certainly possible to have a build that simply can’t, but there is no way to fully prevent this.

Sure a scrapper or blaster may do the mission in half the time, but again that is just the nature of the AT nor is it particularly unfair because anyone can opt to play one of these if they so choose. Also, since the overhead involved in visiting the contact and getting to the mission is the same for everyone the final advantage is smaller.

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I dont know about you guys but it seems that teaming isnt even encouraged its almost a necesity. If you dont team its more than twice as long to lvl cuz when you team you get the xp increase. I say give soloers an xp increase of at least .5% or something i mean come on i bought this game thinking sweet a game that ill play for the next few years cuz its gonna be a great game. But wrongo, lets see i can hardly solo a lvl past 14, due to the little xp gain, and i wont even go on to the other things i have problems with cuz there wayyy too off subject. But i love soloing its the best part i mean to get to send out my ice pets and let them wreak havoc on the mobs instead of me is fun but its way slower on the lvling department certain groups shouldnt get punished for being or doing the things they do. ie i dont have 900+ hours to play this game in a few months it might take me two years to get that much time in and in those 900+ hours of play i probably wouldnt be at 50 by then because my time is more scattered than if someone would have done it in 6 months DONT punish soloers, workaholics who just want an hour or so to play a game after/before work. Or even a few hours in after school not everyone has 10 or 12 hours a day to play this game.

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Teams should always almost give better xp/rewards simply because that is the preferred mode of play for any MMO. There is a lot of overhead involved in making a game into am MMO rather then a standalone or even a subscription based solo game. This expense just isn’t justified if you are going to turn around and punish people for teaming. You are better off not making the game an MMO if you are not going to put teaming first.

This isn’t to say soloing shouldn’t be possible, practical, and rewarding, nor is it saying there should not be plenty of things you can do solo, but teaming has to be the preferred mode of play.

As things stand now though it is way easier and faster to solo to 50 then it is to get there by teaming. A fire tank who solo’s exclusively can get to 50 in under 150 quite easily, one who teams the whole time will probably take three times that, and someone who teams where there is no fire tank present will take over 500.

Currently there is no AT in the game that can’t solo a mission in a reasonable amount of time. Yes some take longer, but doing that same mission as a team takes longer as well. Solo play is not hurting in this game nor is it in any danger of hurting. Except for a handful of builds, team play is almost pointless from a reward perspective unless you are being powerleveled by an ubar solo build. This is pushing people away from legitimate team play and the lack of social interaction causes people to burn out and leave the game.

Finally I don’t understand why you are concerned about how long it takes a “casual” player to get to higher levels. Are you suggesting that someone who doesn’t play very much should be able to get to high levels in the same amount of real time as it takes someone who plays a lot? This doesn’t seam fair.

Nor does it seem right to allow people to blow through the content so quickly they can do it 3-4 times in a few months get bored and quite. This is an MMO not a standalone game. You should expect it to be a long term commitment not something where your goal is to “finish”. If it takes you a year to reach 50 that’s perfect. You get a year of enjoyment playing, a year of new content so you have plenty of new things to do so you can enjoy getting to 50 again.

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One of the reasons I left Everquest was that I couldn't just log in for 1/2 hour and have some fun between other things in life. One of the things that I love best about CoH is that if I have 30-60 minutes before work to log on, then even though there are relatively few people on (6am Central time) I can still grab a mission and do it solo. Or go hunting. Or follow a blaster around and heal him while he hunts (I'm a lvl 10 Emp/Dark defender).


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That isn’t what debate is about. There is plenty of this type of content.

If however you wanted to log in and spend 2-3 hours on a team exploring content designed for a team, rather then solo content with a few extra mobs that a dozen different builds could still solo then you are out of luck. There is almost nothing in this game for you, and if you listen to proponents of solo play these days there should be nothing at all for you, and every single piece of content in the game should be aimed at the solo player.

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I promise I'll look at Blasters afterwards and take a much closer look at the issues. The major one that strikes me is that the secondaries are not all created equal. A couple complement the primary set SO much better than the rest. That's an issue not just for levels 40 - 50, but for ALL levels. The second major complaint is that damage doesn't scale well enough for Blasters in the late game. I'll look into that, too. And I'll make sure to read these boards to find others.


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It’s great to hear this is being looked at.

I would just like to make a point on the issue of late game damage. This is something breaks down clearly along AoE vs single target lines. I don’t think many people will argue that the “AoE” sets (Fire and AR) do enough damage in the late game. This is, however an issue for the other three sets to varying degrees.

The problem is that ice, eng and elec sets rely primarily on their single target attacks for damage. In a game so heavily dominated by AoE damage this is something of an issue for a high damage low defense AT in and of itself, but there is a further problem.

Where the issue of scaling comes in is that while blasters tend get a number of specialized attacks they don’t have enough general purpose ranged attacks and most of those come early. So, in the late game when scrappers and tankers get additional high quality attacks and the slots to make them useful blasters don’t get anything to keep up.

The result is that even though these blasters are primarily single target damage dealers, they are not particularly strong in this respect and are generally in the late out damaged by scrappers and sometimes tankers who have been built as damage dealers game as a result despite facing much higher risks.

I remember the first time a 5th changed into a warwolf while I was fighting it.

I remember the “second Rikti invasion” on infinity when a Rikti ambush got lost in SC, called up a portal which kept warping more in. Well over 100 heroes gathered to battle Rikti 15 levels higher then themselves.

I remember being the highest level on a team fighting in south bricks at level 26.

I remember the first time I saw a pre nerf burn tank

I remember using Nova when no one had ever seen it before. (And getting beat on by a survivor while people types things like “WOW” and “Nice”)

I remember my first TF, the day they were fixed, and having the whole team but the inv tank wiped out by 5th at the very start of the first mission, then having everyone go to the hospital, and come back to the mission while the tank was still fighting them by himself.

I remember the first time I saw a herd of warwolves being pulled in.

I remember many old friends who I have not seen in a long time, and will probably never see again.

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Oh the other paw, it's hurting some ice, stone, and fire tankers who were getting double defense bonuses against some types of damage.


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Fire tanks have no defense of any type. They only have (limited by tank standards) damage resist, which isn't changed by this.

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This was actually a big help to Dark Melee Scrappers and Energy Melee Tankers (plus others). Mobs were basically doubling their defense against the dual-"element" based attacks.

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Don’t forget eng blasters. Nems and sky raiders were a real pain for an eng blaster if they got a FF up.

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Hello again all.

I am following up again to my complaint that missions have become impossible at level 23 given the fact that the groups of mobs are yellow and orange cons and too much for a group consisting of a blaster, a controller (with phantom army), and a defender.



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Do you maybe have your perception turned up? On Hero you should get white and yellow minions, though I guess there is the possibility of an orange Lt.

You should still be able to handle orange mobs. Have the controller use flash and they will pretty much just stand there waiting to be shot.

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Set to invincible, the villains will be +2 and +3 to the mission leader. Someone -1 to the leader will see +3s and +4. Someone -2 to the leader will se +4s and +5s


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If you have 6 or more people on the team it adds one level to the mobs. This means someone -1 to the mission holder will be looking at +4’s and +5’s.

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Personally, I've only seen the level spread be a real issue in respec, and at lower levels (a 4 level spread is not a big deal in a group of 30+s, but it can be in a group of teens).


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It “isn’t an issue” at higher levels because the 1-3 people who are not 5 levels down could do the mission by themselves. Often there are multiple people who could solo the mission.

What you really have is a mission with the difficulty set to 1-3 players and are simply preventing more people then that from contributing. Sure you can still do missions this way but it certainly isn’t fun to have a couple people doing all the work while everyone else sits back and leaches.

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Sometimes the mission instances can generate some ridiculous foe sets-- I recall a Tsoo mission that had literally dozens of bosses and backed up by four - six yellow ink-men and two sorcerers in each group. No mez protection... forget it... slugging through that was insanity...


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Tsoo missions come for the most part before SO’s and well before the problems I am talking about set in.
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My empathy defender tagged along in a group of six level 40+s doing a Carnival of Shadows mission. The lead was a level 42 Fire Tank.

He jumped into a group and instantly his health was at half. I threw a heal other and group heal and got him to 3/4 health. The next instant he was at 1/4. I threw another heal other. And the next instant he was dead. You can guess how long the non-tanks lasted after that.


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Fire tanks are weak defensively to begin with (they are a lot more like scrappers the tanks) and some carnies use attacks which bypass even these defenses. Making missions difficult simply by negating your powers on a massive scale isn’t any more acceptable as a solution then forcing bad teams. The are not much more challenging for a good team but seriously penalize mediocre and more casual teams.

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I've seen low level BALANCED teams get ripped to shreds (this is BEFORE the crank up of bosses) when one comes in on the sly and starts wailing on some hapless defender or controller and the fight degenerates from there...


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The bosses were never cranked up at low levels, and the problem I am referring to doesn’t exist at these levels.

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There seems to be the concern about stuff being too-easy and that people will lose interest. Casual players don't want the normal difficulty of the game to be an in-your-face razor's-edge-of-death.


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We are not talking about the razors edge of death here. Any team with a tank and a mix of a couple other AT’s can handle pretty much any mission with ease past level 30, and in most cases the suspense has nothing to do with “will we win” but “how fast can we wipe them out”. The only caveat is that everyone has to be around the same level. Setting mission difficulty up or do a task force and this becomes everyone has to be exactly the same level.

Let me say it again for emphasis As long as you have a half way competent tank the only thing that matters is if everyone on the team is the same level. Doesn’t that strike you as silly and something that is going to work strongly against the casual player?

Doesn’t it make a lot more sense to raise the difficulty of mobs rather then further restricting team level differenced and inserting mobs that simply bypass your teams abilities altogether?