Moghedien_EU

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SS/ brutes and /SS tanks are the nemesis for forts and nw so are spines and broadsword scrappers.
They can kill forts and nw pretty easy.

The fact that your ill/rad cant pull a draw vs a fort doesnt mean no AT or set can defeat them, just that other sets can do it now.

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sighs ...

Please read earlier on the thread ref my spines/sr scrapper vs a fort.

Moghedien, you seem to be adamant that your point of view is right, despite several people, including some very good pvp'rs ( not including myself there ) advising that you may well be wrong.

It doesn't help when you don't seem to be reading everyones' replies in full.

Fact : Forts are top tier in PVP now, and nothing else can compete on an equal skill level and build.

It's no longer scissors/paper/stone.


Fahie

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Well maybe a big part is, the "good pvp" players which are playing forts or nw and say they are overpowered do that cause of totally wrong numbers they get from Mids and those numbers have absolutely NOTHING in common with the real numbers in PvP ?

When it comes to acc and tohit, everyone points out how much lower they are in pvp due to diminishing returns, but when it comes to defense suddenly they forget that defense get heavy diminishing return too...

I dont say forts arent very good in PvP but there are still certain sets that can kill them without much trouble.

To say NOTHINg can compete on equal skill is just plain wrong.
As you said you killed a fort on your spines/sr scrapper 3 times and the fort killed you 5 times, that doenst sound as if the fort was totally unbeatable (you said yourself your werent the best pvper either, did you have focussed accuracy ?)

So your "fact" is proven wrong by your own earlier statement :-)

SS/ brutes and /SS tanks are the nemesis for forts and nw so are spines and broadsword scrappers.
They can kill forts and nw pretty easy.

The fact that your ill/rad cant pull a draw vs a fort doesnt mean no AT or set can defeat them, just that other sets can do it now.

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Just for reference heres the NW build i made..You're telling me those defense levels are easy to go through?

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Natural Arachnos Widow
Primary Power Set: Night Widow Training
Secondary Power Set: Widow Teamwork
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mental Blast -- Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(3), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), HO:Centri(15)
Level 1: Combat Training: Defensive -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(11), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(13), Ksmt-ToHit+(46)
Level 2: Strike -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(7), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), T'Death-Dam%(50)
Level 4: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(5), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(5), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-EndRdx(40)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- HO:Ribo(A), HO:Ribo(34)
Level 12: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-ResKB(33), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(34), Numna-Heal(43), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(43)
Level 18: Slash -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(19), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(23), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21)
Level 22: Mask Presence -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(25), RedFtn-EndRdx(29), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(31), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 24: Build Up -- HO:Membr(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(25), AdjTgt-Rchg(29)
Level 26: Foresight -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(27), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(27), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(34), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(37), S'fstPrt-ResKB(46)
Level 28: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(40), LkGmblr-Rchg+(48)
Level 32: Mind Link -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), HO:Membr(50)
Level 35: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-Build%(39), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(40)
Level 38: Elude -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(39), HO:Membr(39)
Level 41: Spirit Shark -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(43), ExStrk-Dam%(50)
Level 44: Eviscerate -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(45), Erad-Acc/Rchg(45), HO:Nucle(46)
Level 47: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
------------

Gamete..

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Mids doesnt show the correct defense lvls for PvP you should have noticed.

Defense in PvP in mids is bugged and doesnt get diminishing returs.....

Its kind of strange you dont notice the mids numbers are wrong for defense in PvP when your playing a fort as you say......

Even in elude a NW wont get more than 55% def in PvP

Another case of play one actually and not only look at mids numbers ??? :-)
Cause if you actually played one in PvP you should have noticed the defense in PvP isnt as high as in PvE.

70% def outside elude is NEVER possible in pve....

Btw Fahie if your ill/rad never lost arena, by your definition it was totally overpowered before I13 then :-)

But i guess you claim it wasnt cause only other players toons are overpowered as usual......

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Seriously how can anybody argue that forts and widows arent op? A decent build and half decent player can have a basically unkillable toon with a very respectable ranged attack chain. Add on top all the veat trimmings like mezzes and huge mez resists and all the other mitigation and self buff powers.

The perfect example of the mess the devs made with i13 pvp.

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Odd you mention veats cause banes and crabs suck in pvp...

Btw you got a SS brute and you know that SS negates defenseive sets almost entirely, making them easy kill targets, since they have no resists to rely on if defenses fails....

Do i say SS is op in PvP cause it can kill defensive sets without probs because rage is totally op in pvp even in its nerfed state ?

Nope since there are still sets SS isnt good against...
There are still sets nightwidows or forts arent good against like rad or /rad, forts can detoggle the /rad debuffs, nightwidows cant.


Forts and NW dont have defdebuff resists, and therefore are very vulnerable to defdebuffs... and there are tons and tons of sets with defdebuffs.


Just pick toons with the right sets to counter and negate forts or nw strenghts...
If you fight a /fire tanker or /fire brute with a fire attack set you will suck big time , same goes for fighting an /elec armor with energy attacks or /invul with smashing/lethal.... is /elec and /fa or /invul op because of that ? NO

get a /storm or /sonic or /ta or rad/ defender,
get munitions mastery and take surveillance on a blaster,
get a SS tank with laser beam eyes(which kills forts and nw very very fast cause they hit most time and laserbeam eyes got defdebuff in it too)
get an earth/ or /ta or /rad or /storm troller
get a broadsword/ spines/ dualblades/ or katana/ scrapper

Take focused accuracy on a tank or scrapper and the problem is solved without any defdebuffs at all.

ALL those sets have some or many defdebuff powers in them allowing them to debuff nw or forts defenses.

Are there many sets which can debuff resistance ? NO
Are there many sets that can debuff Defense ? Hell yeah

Sure defense is better than resists for damg migitation but it HAS to be since it can be debuffed and overcome far easier than resists.

Out of elude nw and especially fort defenses arent that good, not softcapped at all.

If pl cant hit through the denfeses with buildup, chances are several players are targeting the same fort or nw and therefore increasing the elusivity she gets.

Ever tried killing a tanker ?
Its almost impossible for a single char no matter what At or sets, if Forts and Nw are op , tankers are op even more... cause unlike forts and nw they got no real weak spot

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Lol .. gamete beating me to it now.

We really need an X4 champion to contribute to this thread so that Moghedien actually believes us

Fahie

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I got my ingame experience you got yours ^^

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Ok, lets put this in perspective.

Myself, and a good SG friend used to PVP a lot. Pre I13 I could wipe the floor with them with my ill/rad most of the time, do well with my spines/sr ( my two *specced* pvp toons ) and either win or lose with the blasters and other ancillaries.

Since I13, *nothing* can touch the fort. Best I got was 3-6 with the scrapper.

I'm not a pvp newbie ( nor the best in the world ) .. but I know enough that when I am getting my [censored] handed to me on a consistent basis regardless of my AT then it's overpowered. Certainly baring in mind that we are of roughly equal skill.

And yes .. doh .. I do have aim and build up.

Read the threads, acknowledge the godness of forts in I13, relax and take a deep breath

Fahie

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Simple if you get beatenby forts all time roll a toon that can beat them cause there are toons that can beat them.

Every At is strong against certain sets and weak against others....

Try killing elec armor with energy attacks or invul with smashing lethal....

Forts and nw have trouble hitting high def sets too

Just because certain At or sets cant beat a fort doesnt mean it op, cause there are At and sets that can beat them without much trouble.

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Well its funny you say that because my ice/ss tank hits forts and widows alot more often than my blaster does. Sure a blaster can hit a fort with Bu+aim and even a NW but a blaster won't hit a NW once elude is up.

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Funny i see good and well build blasters hit throuh elude pretty yoften.

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yeh i agree with Rent here, if you getting hit in elude on a nightwidow then i think you need to actually slot defense in it and take the defensive powers from night widow training or whatever its called because the nightwidows i've faught i haven't been able to hit once with a blaster once elude is up.

Gamete..

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Try with buildup and aim ?
Other blasters doesnt seem to have much trouble hitting through 60% def.

Prolly ppl should actually PLAY a nw or fort AND a blaster to compare them, not just assume things.

I got both :-)

Btw rent, i saw you killing nw and forts pretty often, still saying they are op and its the players that are noobs in pvp cause you beat them, without having even played one EVER is noob tbh.

SS can hit Forts just fine and buildup + aim gives more tohit than rage...........

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lol stop being a nub.


Power Boost + Build Up + Aim + tactics + kismet only gives 105% to-hit now thanks to DR. No where near enough to hit a well played Fortuna with all attacks for those 10 seconds.

While your working your way through your attack chain your still getting held and knocked down which lowers your 10 second window by at least half. Most Fortuna's have either phase and/or aid self which makes things even more "fun"

If you've easily been killed on your fortuna by blasters then play better tbh.

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Forts are good in PvP vs squishies yeah, but so are blasters.

Ppl try to make other believe blasters suck in pvp now wich isnt the case at all.

Buildup+ Aim + set boni is more than enough to hit any fort with all attacks during those 10 secs.

Considering they got no resists and no godmode it isnt hard to kill them in those 10 secs.

If it isnt enough to kill her ... hibernate wait for aim recharge.. and do it again....

I play a purpled ou nightwidow, and even in elude blasters have no problem hitting me if the have ac boni...
add in aim and buildup and they hit almost every time during that period... cosindering nw got no resists they kill you pretty easy in that short time with those 2 buildups running.

Fort have lower defenses than Nw and no elude and no perma mind link....
A bubbler can get much higher def perma than forts can get in PvP.
Blaster with frozen armor get almost as high defenses against certain attacks with other defensive powers in ADDITION to brute lvl resists while forts have no resists at all.

I dont understand why defensive sets get no resists in PvP while classes with def epic/patron shields get crazy high resists ON TOP of the defense the epic shield gives.

Imo its a bit stupid to give toons (blasters) whos primary AND secondary sets are almost pure dmg, as much resists as toons with a WHOLE sets dedicated to defense or resists.

That means they practically get a THIRD powerset they dont need to waste slots or powers on FOR FREE.
Thats like giving brutes, scrappers, tanks and stalkers 4 FREE ranged attacks with good damg they dont need to slot

Btw i have to put a stop to the rumor, several veats are very strong in PvP cause their buffs stack......
Its NOT true, another mindlink gives about 4% more def, the leadership around 2% since DR negate almost 90% of the buffs.

So no, several veats dont benefit much from their teambuffs, at least not more than any defnsive set would from a bubbler or cold corr, or storm char.

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The only blasters that will deal amazing dmg from range now is psy and sonic. A sonic/em in a zone is something to watch out for, the damage is ridiculous.

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Blaster were totally overpowered in pre I13 pvp.

They can still kill most stalkers, doms and veats masterminds and corr without problem, cant see anything underpowerd there.

I guess the pre I13 pvp blasters are just sry that they cant kill EVERY class now like they were able to before.

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Its beyond me how the devs can give the highest damg class with randged attacks meele class resists, thats stupid.

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It's simple. They've given them worse than melee class damage now

Fahie

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Not really they still deal damg on par with meele damg

Blaster resists are way over the top now.

Its beyond me how the devs can give the highest damg class with randged attacks meele class resists, thats stupid.

With epic shields blaster can get more resists than a brute seems pretty odd to me tbh.

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With dual builds I'd still consider three plenty. There was a time when we had to do with only 3 respecs. And there was no way to get more aside from freespecs and I think people did just fine.

Usually I dont even have to use respecs. Build 1 for leveling up and Build 2 for IOs. It's great!

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That was the time without sets sets and only Sos, now with sets there is more reason to respec in order to see how it works out.
Powers change pretty often either pve or pvp these days.

Some ppl want to use the 2nd build for pvp...

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Or do a respec trial, which is quicker than a lot of TF's anyways.

Fahie

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Can only do it 3 times and many players used all their respecs :-)

Did the devs lower the dropchance for them to force players to buy respecs for real money ?

Did they used to be trial or tf drops or just normal rare drops from normal mobs ?
If they are normal rare drops, it feels like the dropchance got lowered very much judging by wentsworth or bm.

If they used to be trial or tf drops, they are practically out of the game since you cant buy them with merits.

Since the droprate is about nonexistant the devs could at least make them purchasable with merits ?

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Romulous + 3 Nictus AV's: One Nictus has an auto-hit Sunless mire which it spams and does serious amounts of damage, also said Nictus is immune to any and all debuffs apart from sleep which is possibly the worst crowd control type I can think of, plus the summoning nictus summons enough little Nicti that some of that damage is going to get through no matter what your defense is like.

Hamidon is our 'raid boss' City of Heroes was just not built with that kind of thing in mind, it's simply not that kind of MMO.

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Theres a thread somewhere where a mastermind proves he soloed Rom :-)
Cant remember how he did it :-)

Some tricky new AVs or GMs would be nice.
The Abyss and Monster island would be nice places to add some new content since those are absolutely pointless maps, at least imo.

Ghost widow and Rom are good examples how powerfull AvS can be with the right powers and tricks up their sleeves.
Mothership raid is fun to.

Imo players would do raids even new raid mobs and have fun doing them, if there was a nice reward at the end.
As it is now many see it as a waste of time.

Making Hami a cross faction raid map, raid mob would help i think, at least some villains would get the chance to kill him once.
I dont think there was a sucessfull Hami raid villain side on Eu servers ever, was there ?

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It's the same in EVERY MMO though.

Hunters/Warlocks: Kings of killing Elite mobs in WoW on their own through kiting.

Bright Wizards (they do have amazingly high DPS) and most of the tanking classes in WAR: Through sheer DPS or just a massive battle of attrition can take down things they're not meant to (the tanking classes can output some serious DPS for tanks).

Demontologists: More kiting.

Rad/Illusion, Rad/Sonic, DM/SR Brutes: Are a few of the examples I can give which can take on AV's/GM's and win.

It's just that we have more combinations that can take on these big guys and win, which I personally think is a good thing.

Yes powersets matter because it depends on what you want to do which picks the powerset, all trade something for something else, DM/SR brutes, great sustained DPS but incredibly awful AoE capabilities, Fire/Kin, awful single target damage but wipes out groups in seconds, Rad/sonic defender, again great sustained DPS but a total of one decent AoE cone attack.

Each of these specialists excell in their chosen field but completely fail somewhere else.

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I agree totally with you there.
But elites in other games are not the hardest mobs, there are still raid bosses that cant be killed solo, not even in teams at least not if they are +4 lvls to you, they need several teams to kill. So even the specific elite killer combos face npcs they cant kill.

In CoH the only NPC that really cant be killed solo or in a team no matter which set you have is Hami.
Maybe the mothership raid boss too, but only cause of the ads not cause hes too powerfull.

But its very unlikely at least for the EU servers you get enough ppl to try Hami, since he doesnt give a good reward most players dont bother to invest time in it.

I miss more team challenges, npcs that cant be taken down by players with certain combos, and are hard to kill even with good skilled teams.

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my Demontologist could take out quite a few elite mobs on his tod...one of them being that spider demon queen in that area filled with cobwebs and giant spiders, it's tough don't get me wrong and incredibly close but once again it all comes down to which class you pick.

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Exactly.. what class you pick.
Soloing mobs meant for teams or raids all comes down what class you pick, certain classes or speccs or poorly equipped chars would drop dead in seconds.

Like in CoX you can solo AVs but i comes down which class you pick and how good your sets are.

Doesnt that mean the set and combo has a very big impact on what you can do and what not ?
Doesnt that mean no matter hoe skilled you are certain classes or specs or combos dont perform as well as others ?

Thats what i mean when i say sets in CoX play an almost more important role when it comes to a chars performance than skill.

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Two or 3 ppl said that there were easier games, which i admitted, though they were harderr when i played them and they changed difficulty.

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Hang on, one of those game was AoC. That didn't change much since launch, it certainly didn't get any easier and it wasn't particularly difficult.

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Elite mobs werent difficult ?
You needed a team to kill them, solo you died in seconds.
Only comparable difficulty in CoX are AvS which dont come in masses like elite mobs.
Avs in CoX can be soloed by certain classes and combos,and in teams they are rather easy, the even harder elite Bosses in AoC needed a good and skilled team to take down.

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This was contested. We had a number of reputedly experienced MMO players contest this point and state their experiences with alternative MMOs that you sited in support of your argument. The evidence of those stated experiences contradicted your point 100%. That doesn't at least anecdotally proves you wrong.

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Two or 3 ppl said that there were easier games, which i admitted, though they were harderr when i played them and they changed difficulty.
Still there are several harder games out there, which nobody denied.... prolly havent played them.
That doesnt mean all other games are easier than CoX
I dont think anyone who played WoW before the new addon, would say instances were easier than tf/sf in CoX

Of course you can kite elite mobs in WoW, but:

1: Only outdoors not in instances with roamers and no space to run and respawn

2: Without getting agro from other elites, which prolly kill you very fast then.

Elites in WoW at least were the strenghts of Avs in CoX, not all classes were able to solo them and if you got adds you die fast.

Difference is AvS tend to be solo apart from some few Tf/Sf in CoX, while in WoW you get a whole instance filled with them + an even harder Elite Raid mob which cant be soloed at all, unlike Avs in CoX.

In other threads other ppl do think that sets do play an as important role to how a character performs as skills does.

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

Thus, the statement "I know that there are aliens", when no one else on the planet has observed them, can probably be logically disproved.

The proof might go something like...

First assume that aliens exist.

Aliens therefore exist in numbers ranging from 1 to infinity.

As the number of aliens - N(Aliens) - approaches infinity, the probability, P(Aliens), of aliens visiting Earth approaches unity.

The number of Aliens that are on Earth will be some factor k, which multiplied by NxP will give the number of Aliens on Earth.

If Aliens Exist on Earth, then P(Aliens) = 1.

Therefore kxNxP = kxInfinityx1.

Thus, the number of Aliens on Earth is infinite.

Observation disputes this.

QED.

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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I'd like to see that, too.

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Nice try but not quite correct...
k=N x P
k(Number of Aliens on earth)=N(Number of Aliens in the universe)X P(probability they visit earth)

If you assume N isnt infinitive and P isnt 1 which is more likely, then you dont get k= infinitive.

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And you need to go back to school. N is the number of aliens in the entire universe. P is the probability of those aliens being on Earth. k is the proportion of the universal alien population that comes to Earth.

Therefore N(Aliens on Earth) = kNP

If P=1, then N=Infinity.

Further, the whole point of a proof by contradiction is to take the opposing argument as fact - we already knew that there were aliens on Earth, from the initial statements, therefore P must = 1.

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You have to decide which letters represent what :-)

One time you say N= number of aliens in the universe one time you use N=Number of aliens on earth.

Z(Number of aliens on earth)= kxNxP

Since N isnt infinit, can use drake formula for that Z isnt either


----------drake formula------
Z= (S * P * E * B * I * F * L) *k* P1(probability of aliens visiting earth)

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

Thus, the statement "I know that there are aliens", when no one else on the planet has observed them, can probably be logically disproved.

The proof might go something like...

First assume that aliens exist.

Aliens therefore exist in numbers ranging from 1 to infinity.

As the number of aliens - N(Aliens) - approaches infinity, the probability, P(Aliens), of aliens visiting Earth approaches unity.

The number of Aliens that are on Earth will be some factor k, which multiplied by NxP will give the number of Aliens on Earth.

If Aliens Exist on Earth, then P(Aliens) = 1.

Therefore kxNxP = kxInfinityx1.

Thus, the number of Aliens on Earth is infinite.

Observation disputes this.

QED.

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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I'd like to see that, too.

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Nice try but not quite correct...
k=(N - D) x P
k(Number of Aliens on earth)=N(Number of Aliens in the universe)- D(Number of aliens not able to space travel) X P(probability they visit earth)

If you assume N isnt infinitive and P isnt 1 which is more likely, then you dont get k= infinitive.

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either..

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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Sets did improve character performance.
Certain sets perform much better than others
Certain combos perform better than others.
Several games are harder to play than CoX.
Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend.
Several ppl find Cox too easy and want a challenge.

Cant prove those statements and opinions, but neither was anyone able to prove the opposite.
Some of my statements are only based of what i have seen and experienced ingame, with no numbers to back up....
I just wonder why so many ppl claim that i am wrong with my opinion of a certain set combo while they admit they never played it, while i did.
I was wrong on several other things i admitt, cause others were able to prove i was wrong.

Knight_Errant did you back up your statements?
You evaded the response too.