Mieux

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The debuff sticks to its targets

[/ QUOTE ] My experience has shown me that Glue Arrow also makes a sticky patch which affects any mobs that subsequently run into it. That was the "pet" part I'm referring to...not the debuff already on those who get hit initially.

Does Glue not create a "pet" that debuffs those who enter post alpha?

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Controller pets self-cancel. That is, only one summon can exist at a time. Hence, 'balanced'.


[/ QUOTE ] The point here is that Glue Arrow would stack. Controller pets self cancel for exactly that reason..so they don't stack. There was no way to stop the stacking effect of multiple pets...which leads too...

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Gah. That is what they're saying. "Controller pets self cancel for exactly that reason", so why couldnt Glue Arrow self cancel for exactly that reason also? Would solve the problem of stacking and it wouldnt have such a stupidly long recharge as it has now.

[/ QUOTE ]Ummm..."Gah" is right... You're missing the part about a "permanent, anchorless, -Speed and -Recharge," being too good. Which is exactly what Glue Arrow would be if it were allowed to be permanent. The self-cancel doesn't stop it from being too good. As you said..."Gah."

Tonight...my OS lit 100% of the time. I was teamed with a Kin controller and must have used OS about 10-15 times in two missions...sometimes in back to back spawns. 100% of the time I lit it with BA.

The Emp/El defender lit it 2 for 2 with Ball Lightning. Way cool...waaaay cool. So much more efficient to let someone's AoE do the trick rather than wasting a Blazing Arrow.

Castle, if you wouldn't mind telling us if you've fixed it, cuz if you haven't, I need to go buy a Lotto ticket NOW.

....and FYI folks...it still knocks down after its been ignited and burns out...it just doesn't last too long after it burns out.

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Controller pets self-cancel. That is, only one summon can exist at a time. Hence, 'balanced'.


[/ QUOTE ] The point here is that Glue Arrow would stack. Controller pets self cancel for exactly that reason..so they don't stack. There was no way to stop the stacking effect of multiple pets...which leads too...

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Works fine for the Mastermind Poison set's Neurotoxic Breath, and for Shiver. Admittedly, those are cones

[/ QUOTE ] Master Minds are completely different ball of wax than defenders. You cannnot compare a Defender power to a MM power. The requirements for MM's is completely different than it is for defenders.

In addition, I changed my post to say a "permanent" -Speed and -Recharge because I figured most people wouldn't understand the full implication. Apparently I was right.

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THIS is a strawman.

[/ QUOTE ] Your post is worded such that it looks like you are still implying that this is true: TA's can't defend teams. Since you later acknowledged that TA can defend I team, which means my interpretation was incorrect, I owe you an apology.

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I can play Force Field. I can play Radiation, whose toggle-management is apparently a lot harder than I thought. I can play Storm Summoning. But apparently I can't play Trick Arrow worth mentioning

[/ QUOTE ] I've played FF, I've played Rad, I've played DD, and I've played Kinetics. TA is not the hardest set to play, IMO. But it does require a very different mindset than the others. Which makes it hard to play. Kinetics is fraught with far more peril and is far less capable of pulling a teams fat out of the fire. My TA provides far more benefit to team defense than my Kinetics did at the same level. If I play both TA and Kinetics, expecting the same type of effect, one is going to seem horrible broken compared to the other. The sets operate differently. TA debuffs. It does this and it does it well. I've seen it in action. I've seen it compared to my Rad. Why? Because of the nature of the debuffing. While Rad has better potential debuffing, the reality is that in game play, TA is more consistent. TA comes up a little short when you add in AM, Radiation Aura, and Mutation, on top of the the other powers. TA also doesn't offer any status protection of any kind.

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and if your set underperforms for someone with significant experience with several other sets, and in the hands of several other players who've player several other sets, can we assume that the rest of the playerbase is not ALWAYS the source of the problem?

[/ QUOTE ] This is a loaded a question. If 99.9% of the population cannot make an certain power work...and that other .1% can....then due to the natuer of why there is a CoX, the power should be changed.

What I steadfastly object to, is shameful selective reasoning put forth by people like Goofy. Reasoning that completely ignores the context of the game and creates a false impression of the set and its problelms in the scope of the comparative defender experience. Argueing that EF and RI are always available is "intellectually dishonest" as Centerfire would put it. While technically they can last the entire fight...they by and large don't. While technically they can affect every spawn in a group...they rarely do. But Goofy won't admit that because it reveals some ever so slight crack in his argument that TA is by far the worst set. TA isn't perfect....but players who refuse to be completely honest about the relative value of sets and powers make the game worse...not better.

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Radiation can debuff defense to the point where accuracy enhancements are unneeded against purple-con mobs.

[/ QUOTE ] Right...right...and how many people do you know take out their acc enhancements because of it? Do you know any Rads that take out their acc enhancements because of it?

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You can defend a team with Trick Arrow.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, it looks like you got at least one thing right in that post.

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Nice straw man.

[/ QUOTE ] Do you know what a strawman is? Blue tries to claim that TA can't defend a team. That fact that it provides some advantage over just about every other set refutes that contention.

TA can defend a team compared to the other sets. Some players can't.

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Really? Because, you know, they sure did so with the top-tier controller powers. What are those called again? Oh yeah. Pets.



[/ QUOTE ] You clearly don't have the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about. There is no revealed way to stop each pet's abilities from taking effect. Each is a separate caster and thus Glue Arrow would stack. Obviously they feel this is too good.

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Having glue arrow #2 cancel out glue arrow #1 would have been an acceptable solution.

[/ QUOTE ] A permanent, anchorless -Speed and -Recharge, that is sticky...would be too good imo. That fact that you don't even acknowledge that possibility shows your mindset.

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I suppose that's why Glue Arrow has a longer recharge than a power like Tar Patch. You got me there.



[/ QUOTE ] And this is why I find your whole approach contemptable. Your lack of knowledge about the powers and unwillingness to concede or even acknowledge downsides in other powers makes your position distasteful where I otherwise might be sympathetic. Tar Patch does not stick to the mobs. Once they are free and clear of the "patch" the debuff no longer takes affect. You know...like when the energy blaster or defender constantly ET's them out? Or some Stormie insists on Hurricaning everyone off the patch into a corner? Or maybe you haven't seen Shockwave in action?

Let me clue you in GP. CoT spawns are generally close enough together to that Glue hits most of them right on alpha. The -Recharge keeps on working long after the Thorn Caster AI consistently has them clear the area and attack from range. Tar Patch is worthless then.

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The fact that you don't feel your debuffs are needed very often does not diminish the fact that they are not available very often

[/ QUOTE ] Because my powers aren't CONSTANTLY available the set is horribly broken? Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. God forbid the game should require us to make tactical decisions about the ability to use every single power every fight.

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However, you do have the option of using those toggles every fight if you wish.

[/ QUOTE ] No I don't. The recharge on Choking Cloud is so long, it's almost worth slotting it. I've been on plenty of small teams were we roll along before EF recharges and someone aggros the next group. What I don't have the option on is keeping my Anchor alive. What I dont' have the option on is status protection which completely knocks off all my toggles.

You position, your whole attempt to argue your position is pathetically biased. You consistently downplay every single power and basically refuse to acknowledge the other sets have drawbacks. They do. And as such, TA is as viable as they are.When I find a Rad defender that has respeced out of RI and EF because of issues with anchors, and you don't even acknowledge it...ONCE[/b], you don't care about truth. You don't care what anyone else's reality is if it doesn't support your biased claims.

TA is a great set. You obviously can't play it very well.

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My general complaint isn't that Trick Arrow can't defend a team.

[/ QUOTE ] This is isn't true either. My TA provides more debuffs, on average than my Rad. My TA provides more debuffs, on average, than other Rads I've teamed with. We kill stuff faster than FF, we have more utility than Sonic, we offer far more debuffing than Kinetics with a few exceptions, and the set is less potentially detrimental than Storm.

TA can defender a team very well. Not like Dark...and it's not as diverse as Rad, but it can defend a team. You just have to get out of the teens and have a general clue.

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Yes, self-stacking was overpowered. However, rather than address the self-stackability, they took the cheap way out and introduced unprecedented recharge timers.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you're oversimplifying the problem. My understanding is that Location AoE's are pets. You can't stop pets from stacking. Glue Arrow is a pet. If you allow us to overlap lay it down twice, then it will apply twice and I don't think think the game has as simple way to prevent it...unless it kills the other Glue Arrow.

The other factor is that the recharge times are generally set against the max recharge times. IOW, they have to consider Glue Arrow with Hasten, AM, Speed Boost, and Adrenaline Boost.

I've already stated that the nature of TA's click powers creates a balance issue in terms of smooth distribution from 1-50. Low level TA suffers horribly. But at lvl 26, with Hasten...used infrequently....I have the majority of my debuffs available for every fight. And the other factor is that you simply don't need DA or GA for EVERY fight, especially on small teams. My Rad and Dark Defenders dont' use their toggles every fight. My Dark hardly at all, and even if I waste the time firing both Toggles on my Rad, chances are, once anchor is dead before the other is even set. Kinetics....there is one dangerous defender to play. To give people the SP boost, you've got to be darn close to the action. I don't know what it is with Siphon Speed and Siphon Power, but I'll bet you 100 to 1 odds, that if I use them on a boss, he's going to come after me at least once every fight. The fact is, my Kin/Psi feels like it gets as much protection from Psi as Kin. While Fulcrum Shift is nice and equal to a -res/-dmg debuff...Fulcrum Shift draws aggro, and doesn't lower accuracy, and doesn't give everyone the benefit of the -res aspect. As Kali points out, to really maximize Kinetics, you need a team that can either focus the aggro, or provide a sufficient alpha strike buffer.

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Following that, ED was introduced, causing the TA defender to spend inordinate amounts of time without the benefit of his debuffs.

[/ QUOTE ] Once you get into the higher levels, this isn't true.

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It doesn't mean kinetics is weak.

[/ QUOTE ] lol...I never said Kinetics was weak. What I said was that Dark/Dark provides better universal defense. What I said was that other sets need more attendant circumstances to shine.

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It can make a difference, but I don't think it really was all that much of one.

[/ QUOTE ] I mean more for an entire team.

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I wasn't clear - you have expressed that you find TA's power level to be reasonable, which - even though you played radiation emission or dark miasma before you played TA - implies to me that you have your sights set low as a target for power level.

[/ QUOTE ] This is still not clear to me.

ED did nothting to my Kin, Rad, or Dark defenders. It did take damage out my secondary...for my Dark.

Having played all those sets after I6, the ability to dominate hasn't changed....it's just that now, I have to use more than just Fearsome Stare to to do it. Seriously...90% of the time, I use just TT, NF, and Shadow Fall. If there is a boss, I'll drop TP. If the spawn is large, I'll use my pet. TG gets fired once in a blue moon. Hell, maybe its really /Dark that's too good..lol.

One way I know dark/dark is so good....after a few spawns, the blasters start taking the alphas. They don't do that with my Kinetics...lol.

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I've taken on a +1 Envoy at 38 with...

[/ QUOTE ] at 38....you have six more slots and your lvl 38 power. It does make a diff. I took my DM/SR along with a DM/Inv..a Kin and a Rad defender...we could not beat Envoy. He out damaged the Kin and Rad's healing (my SR was punked by the damage aura) and the Rad did not have the endo to keep up the debuffs. The AV would periodically run over to the defenders and two shot them. We had to get an Empath to take care of the healing so the defenders could focus on strict debuffing.

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I realize that it has control and decent debuffing, but it sacrifices damage for those things.

[/ QUOTE ] I've never said a D3 was the most offensive build. I'd give that to Rad. But it is the most dominating that I've seen. If I need someone to defend the team...i'm going with a D3...hands down.

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I suggest that it's hardly a necessity for just about any primary but FF...

[/ QUOTE ] Given the right situation, other sets can carry slack. But with DD you don't need that special situation...a la a corner Hurricane everyone into.

I see a lot of near team wipes on Invinc at levels below 35 or so...but that happens when I'm playing my non-defenders, or sometimes with my Kinetics against CoT (those debuffing bastards). The other defender sets don't seem be able to pull it off nearly as easy...if at all..IME.

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I also suspect your expectations are calibrated fairly low based on the fact that you seem to feel that Trick Arrow doesn't have many problems.

[/ QUOTE ] I've played all the other sets except a high level Storm and Sonic...loooooong before I played TA/A. Rad/Rad and D/D were my first two defenders.

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If you want Darkest Night, it gets six-slotted. If you want Dark Servant, it gets six-slotted. If you want Twilight Grasp, you really should-six-slot it, whether you go for heals, debuffs, or a mix. If you get Pet Gaze or Fearsome Stare, you should 4-6 slot both.

[/ QUOTE ] What do you six slot DN with?

Maybe TG is six slotted...but I don't think it is. None of my other powers are six slotted, but i'm only 35. I probably have as many or more slots in my attacks. Before ED, I almost respec'd out of DN...I never needed it. It's got four slots.

Tonight, four of us took out a purple Envoy. A BS/Regen, a SK lvl 31 Electric blaster, and a Sk lvl 20 Ice/Storm...and my Dark/Dark. I didn't use a single inspiration...now...the Blaster did die once....I accidently dropped Shadow Fall, we got hit with BoF and my heal missed. Rezed the blaster....we killed the AV.

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With HT, you're saving time, and cutting back on threat for a brief time.


[/ QUOTE ] "Saving time" is one of the most important things in this game. Time...is immensely important to all of us. 8 person missions in Creys or Boomtown, or the Hollows, Eden, CoT/Council maps with prisions, can involve large, large maps. Rezing people...lots of people...right there...should not to be understated. And this is to say nothing of the dual utility of HT as a mez. Are you kidding me? Dark for teh win....by a landslide.

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I think that it's exaggeration to call it "ridiculous" simply because it's not gimped like TA.


[/ QUOTE ] DD was "ridiculous" to me back before TA/A was even around. My feelings on D/D have nothing to do with TA/A.

The other defender sets are all very good IMO. D/D and Rad/Rad just so good, they overkill. In some ways....it's good in that the sets support varoius builds. But whatever...there aren't many DD's around as far as I can see.

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Oh noes, you can keep a team alive! Yeah, that's a sign of a defender set working too well...if you calibrate off Trick Arrow.

[/ QUOTE ] One tank should not be able to easily hold the aggro for an 8 person team. One controller should not be able to hold all the mobs on an 8 person team. One defender should not be able to have that dramatic effect on an 8 person team.

I can put my pet near the melee battle, hang back with the squishies, and out heal anyone but an Empath....and who knows..maybe I can out heal an Empath.

A defender should be able to keep a team alive on Invinc ...provided the team plays well. Hardly a necessity with Dark/Dark.

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I don't believe "ridiculous" is the correct adjective to use.

[/ QUOTE ] I've single handedly turned the tides on eight man missions. Sit around ...loafing...just doing a little blasting...we aggro three groups...2/3rd of the team gets wiped out...now I get seroius. Rez the entire team...Fear one group, slap DN on a boss, Tar Patch and TT a truck load....on top of Night Fall and the incoming damage drops by about 80%. It's ridiculous.

The other night, I took a team of 8 on one of my Invinc missions against CoT. There was a Storm defender on the team my level, 35.....the rest were 31's and 34's. No tank...one scrapper. As long as people didn't get cocky ...we absolutely trounced 38's. We even took out the Prison Cell Room. We had one near party wipe....why? At on point we had not less than four Death Mages chain mezzing us with Dark Pit. The Storm was not savvy enough to realize this and use O2 boost. When I went down nearly the entire team went down in like 30 seconds. We went back, I told the Storm to do nothing but chain O2 Boost...we killed every last CoT without a single defeat.

I went and solo'd the first Pocket D mission ...on Invinc. I came up to the boss...put DN on him to start the battle. He hit me with his boulder ...........and that was it. Must have swung like 20 times and he didn't hit me once more after that. Streakbreaker must have been on vacation.

The only time I see my teams get in trouble is when I get mezzed. Compared to the other sets....D/D is way too good. Only Rad has the potential to be as dominating....and let me share a little Rad story from last night....

I was teamed with a Rad/Rad. Lvl 28 I think. He didn't have RI or EF. I asked why. He had respec'd them out. He said he was tired of getting his anchors killed and got rid of the powers. I rarely have to use DN...rarely.

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Using that same tanker, I later fought Pohsyb's Ill/Kin controller...and lost. He timed my crash...

[/ QUOTE ] I used the same tactic to kill a BS/Regen in Warburg with my DM/SR. After literally 10 minutes of fighting, I finally found the moment when IH and DP cycled, hit Elude for the endo boost and put him down. He couldn't believe it. He screemed. Truth was he was 34 I think and I was 40. Don't think I would have killed him if he had been 40. Extra slots in IH or DP might have been too much.

...oh wait...this is a stalker thread...in that case...

I took my lvl 34 Claws/Regen into War to fight a notorious EM/EA Stalker. Those on Triumph may know who. After learning how to react to the AS+ET combo, I was able to defeat him a number of times. My lvl 40 DM/SR, however, had no chance. Never got a single counter attack....like six in a row...i think the seventh time ET might have missed.

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Do you think I am asking for too much?

[/ QUOTE ] lol...well, just to take a stroll down memory lane, our first dialogue started when I responded to your list of blaster wants way back in I3 or something. I thought it was pretty over the top.

As far as this wish list, it's not outrageous. If people think the set needs improvement ...so be it. I'm not trying to stop the set from being improved, unless it will trivialize the game...which brings us to...

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I think this is all it would take to put the set on par with Dark and Rad in terms of team benefit.

[/ QUOTE ] Dark Miasma is ridiculous. Dark/Dark is even worse. The only thing that keeps a Dark defender in check is the lack of mez protection. Rad is really really good as well. I think those sets are almost too good.

Rad does have more drawbacks than Dark IMO, but it makes up for it with a higher level of offense. Anchor debuffing is negative. Anchor longevity is highly unpredictable and the radius from EF and RI is very small compared to the radius of FA or PGA. But nothing beats a heal in terms of utility or the value of an in-combat rez to full strength.

I do not want to see TA as good as Dark. A D/D is just so damn dominating on teams and if a TA/A had that kind of effect, it would be too much. To the extent that a lot of the complaints are really about the abilit to solo....that's a different issue.

TA defends a team. Arcy joked that one of the good things is that it allows you to play at a higher level of difficulty. It's kind of true. I like a set that helps the team, but does not trivialize the battle. I like being able to win when the team executes, and lose when we don't. To me, that is tremendously important in a game. I often get the feeling people dont' realize that. They are so intent on making their set "balanced" (<nod> to LadyMage) that they don't stop to think of what happens when they get there.

With the exception of the Sewer Trial done at the appropriate level (haven't done the Shard missions), there are so few real challenges in this game (but Snaptooth is one nasty [censored] [censored]).

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The trick is to keybind it: I use a "control+lbutton powexec_name disruption arrow" for the bind; if I control+left click on a villain, DA goes right to him.


[/ QUOTE ] Now that I was not aware of. I'll try it out.

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Its just that the in-game terminology appears to be used differently

[/ QUOTE ] I concede I was a little confused at first.

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I assume you mean TA originally had four Location AoEs; flash, glue, and PGA are targetted AoEs now.



[/ QUOTE ] I think what he means is that you target where the AoE lands as opposed to a normal aoe in which you target a victim.

Flash, PGA are normal AoE's...you target an individual and anyone in a radius gets hit.

Glue is a Location AoE...like Nemesis Sniper fire...your target an individual and that spot continues to have the effect.

Oil and DA are are still Targeted AoE's...you target the location for the AoE.

That's how I interpret his post.

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Y'know, i can think of one thematically apropriate Trick Arrow buffing power...
Antidote Arrow. An ally-targetted AoE that mitigates status effects much like Stimulant or Clear Mind.



[/ QUOTE ] Interesting idea...but good lord man...would you really want someone putting a hypoderm on the end of an arrow shaft and shooting you with it?

It should be a mind clearing gas arrow. Just dont' know what you'd get rid of.

Oh...and they should change the name of Ice arrow to "Cryo-Arrow".

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I'm amazed the power... debuffs defense.

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:cough:

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* Graphics: Oil Slick's description says that it provides a defense debuff, however, there is no enemy graphic to indicate this. (Concern)

[/ QUOTE ]The Defense Debuff was removed before the power went live. The referrence in the short help is a mistake.

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[/ QUOTE ]You know...I knew I had read that and I was hoping it was a dream. Alas.