Mieux

[ QUOTE ]
And a question: Just wondering where you get the acc debuff as being 20%? Because the tested numbers I've seen peg it as being alot lower, more like 7%. I certainly dont feel it's anywhere close to 20% when I use it, so Im curious.

[/ QUOTE ] It has the same base value as Smoke Grenade * the AT Modifier. Way back when....it was posted by Geko or someone that there was a misplaced decimal in SG and it was debuffing 100% not 10%. However.....that may have been in reference to the -perception debuff. If SG is 10%...then the defender version is 11.25%. That's about 20% with SO's. /SR's Toggles provide about 19% three slotted.

In any event, stacking what is essentially +DEF on +DEF toons is more valueable than stacking +DEF on non-Defensen based toons.

But as a TA...you won't "notice" this in the course of a battle.

[ QUOTE ]
This certainly explains things!

[/ QUOTE ] Yes it does.

FA is tantamount to +DEF for everyone who has to fight the mobs. What you probably don't notice is that FA is nearly doubling (depending on build) the +DEF of any /SR or Invinc using scrappers/tanks on the team.

What you probably don't notice is that with all the /Rad controllers, FA+RI create a virtual black hole around the anchor.

What you probably don't notice is that FA reduces the return alpha when using a /Regen for tank to just low enough for allow them to survive and get back to full health.

All of that would require you have some skill and knowledge about the game. So I'm not surprised that you may not "notice" a lot of things.

FA is not teh uber -Acc debuff. It is still a great power.

[ QUOTE ]
I was saying that if you think knockback is worthless

[/ QUOTE ] Then let's look at what I've already said...
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Knockback can be a life saver. I use RF on my FF prolly ever single mission.

[/ QUOTE ] RF= Repulsion Field...all radial knockback.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are fighting anything +1 or higher, the -acc debuff is almost completely unnoticable.

[/ QUOTE ] Whether you notice it or not...it's mitigating damage. Far more damage than say Ice or Entangle arrow when you team. If your criteria for a useful power is that you have to "notice" it, then we are on different wavelengths.

[ QUOTE ]
At even level it's still just an amusing anecdote.

[/ QUOTE ] It's doing more than DN and RI when they aren't on a mob for an entire fight. And more to the point...I'm playing Trick Arrow. I'm not playing Rad or Dark. I don't have the option of choosing RI or DN....so I fail to see what your point is. FA mitigates damage.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you three-slot FA with accuracy, you would have been missing those +3 bosses with FA a significant amount of time

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah...I miss +3 bosses more than +0 minions. Then I just say..."Wait." Fire it again...and it generally hits. I've also had Tactics since 24. This coincided with my getting SO's and turning my diff up to Invinc. Since I don't run toggles, I don't need Stamina.

[ QUOTE ]
and your 20% debuff would have been reduced to 13%***Meanwhile a rad defender slapping as much as 60% tohit debuff down on those bosses

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure which numbers are which...but the diff between FA and RI is not 20% vs 60%. If +3 bosses resist the -acc debuff from FA...then they resist it from RI as well. What makes RI so much better for +3 bosses...if you don't get mezzed....is the -DEF. I don't have Acid Arrow yet. I can't wait.

From using DN and RI..both 3 slotted with To Hit Debuffs...I don't feel that RI is better. What happens is that -DEF causes the +2,3 mobs to get killed soooo much faster, you are exposed to less attacks compared to DN. The thing that allowed /Inv scrappers to kill +5 mobs was not the +DEF from Invinc...it was the +Acc. With Focused Accuracy, I can consistently kill small groups of +5's (but not bosses) without inspirations. If you fight on Heroic...it's not worth much..but when all your defenders are on Invinc...you notice how much -DEF contributes.

[ QUOTE ]
You should keep in mind when saying things like "Sorry...CoT are generally not good mobs for anchor debuffing" that I have a tendancy to test things out before making statements like "this will definitely work,"

[/ QUOTE ] You're testing it out as a solo toon. On teams...your teammates are spread out. The TC's will take positions relative to teammates...not relative to you or your anchor. I have like 4 or 5 toons who are currently in the Cadao Kestral story arc. I've been fighting a LOT of TC's lately.

Last night, my lvl 39 Kin teamed with same level Rad. When I wasn't around, he frequently got mezzed, ran out of endurance, and had his health bounce up and down from the aggro. At one point...we were in an intersection with a low level building. We had mobs on all sides. RI/EF might have been debuffing 1/10 of the mobs from what I could see. His CC was drawing massive aggro, and if it were not for his Emp followed by my Psychic Wail...post Fulcrum Shift...we might have had a team wipe.

We were also grouped with a Peacebringer....Gleaming Blast and Solar Flare anyone? Not too friendly to anchors.

The Rad and I had to work our butts off to keep the SK'd DM/Regen and PB out of debt (or maybe it was just me). Fortunately there were only four of us and RI and EF probably gave us 70-80% coverage most of the time....because I made to sure to have ID on him and use 'ference when he got low. But when things got hairy he was forced to use EMP because he could not provide enough protection from CC, RI, and EF alone. EMP is veeeeeery nice.

[ QUOTE ]
But that deficit can be used to effect with some skill.

[/ QUOTE ] Yup...it can be a very good way to pull mobs and avoid the beta attack when they all round the corner.
[ QUOTE ]
Its actually possible for a good rad to maneuver and reposition their anchor to a degree during a fight because of that aggro, if there are line of sight breaks in the mission and no one actually shoots at it.


[/ QUOTE ] Big IFs. Trigger-happy Controllers are usually the ones that can undermine that. It was worse before I4 or whatever. I've actually picked up TP Foe as an option for moving anchors in open areas. It's eaiser to TP the RI anchor to the group than try and straight line pull him in outdoor maps. TPF has such a long recharge tho.

[ QUOTE ]
A rad would have also had AM running

[/ QUOTE ] A Rad might have AM running. Every scenario I describe, you say the Rad would have AM runing. AM is not perma (though I haven't tried it with Hasten and SO's). When fighting +2,+3's...I use it whenever it's recharged to keep up endurance, locomotion, and speed up the recharge of people's slow recharge powers. By getting a higher level of average benefit, I sacrifice always having it ready for the "one" specific fight were it's needed most. And on large teams set to Invinc...there is often more than one +3 boss. With Crey..there may be two PP's in back to back spawns.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think that on average, flash arrow encompasses the entire spawn, you would have to think RI only encompasses half the spawn all the time, or some other combination of numbers and attacks total, for flash to equal RI in effectiveness in terms of its tohit debuffing effect only.


[/ QUOTE ] I'll do you one better...RI encompasses none of the spawn for some significant portion of the time. Tonight..it was Tuatha...+3 bosses disorienting me. Good thing I didn't have a toggle debuff. After that it was Vamps...putting me to sleep. RI doesn't work when you get mezzed. Granted...once you get it down...if you can keep the mobs contained, chances are they won't. But mezzing +2,+3 bosses can often hit through RI.

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This is one of the few acknowledged advantages of FA: -perception

[/ QUOTE ] I've found the -perception allows blasters to pull one or two mobs at time from a close group. It also allows a tank/scrapper/blaster to get in close and initiate their alphas before they draw aggro...something RI definitely cannot do.

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FA+ PGA doesn't really take all that much more time than RI+EF, and that combo has a much stronger overall effect.


[/ QUOTE ] It definitely takes more time in that I have already caste FA. I only have to caste PGA and I time that so that it's firing as soon as the tank/scrap makes their first attack. Assuming no lag, I can apply PGA before they counter attack and right after we attack. Edge definitely goes to getting TA...but in a tight spawn, with at team that respects anchors, EF+RI is undeniably better. Undeniably.

As i've stated, I think it's the -def that is the real advantage. I don't really know how much advantage EF/DA give. There's a lot wasted damage already. It'd be interesting to see what the average difference EF or DA made with regards to -res for a team over the course of a mission.

[ QUOTE ]
My test this morning? CoT possessed scientists, which are thorn casters in lab coats.

[/ QUOTE ] When I've fought PS in one of those AV missions...I don't recall them doing the Thorn Caster thing. Whether they do or not...Thorn Casters will retreat and fire from Range...one or two might melee, the other four or five will fire blast/lightning/gale/Tremor (?) you from range. Anchor debuffs are very much marginalized. They still work on the LT's...provided you don't get chained disoriented from +2 DM's Dark Pitting you all day. Sorry...CoT are generally not good mobs for anchor debuffing. Groups of Guides or Thorn Wielders are different. But Spectrals and TC's are bad for anchors.

[ QUOTE ]
Just to make sure, I tested this again. My initial suspicion seems to be correct: generators don't appear to buff each other or themselves (at least strongly).

[/ QUOTE ] I can guarantee you they protect themselves. They are just usually a level lower than their engineers.

[ QUOTE ]
Generators are always the *first* to go in any wave of AoEs

[/ QUOTE ] I never see generators get taken down by waves of AoE. Generators avoid a considerable amount of the AoE because they are away from the throng. Unless the Engineer is always targeted, the gen can avoid many AoE's due to range or just straight +DEF.

I've noticed this: People will attack the mobs first...if they continue to hit the mobs...they ignore the gens. RI allows them to continue to hit the mobs. When people start missing the mobs...they turn to the gens. Some people attack the gens religiously.

When I team and put RI on the gens...the gens are the last to go...because people are easily destracted when they can hit the mobs. If I put RI on something else...it invariably gets killed before the gens.

[ QUOTE ]
then again, since you've also said your experience suggests toggle debuffs get lost frequently

[/ QUOTE ] Well, they don't get "lost" they just don't debuff ALL the mobs but rarely. Trolls were generally good to anchors. BP are great for anchors. Crey aren't bad either. Raiders...not so much.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, it always is possible to do one or the other. If there's a roof, there's a wall nearby. If there's no wall, chances are good you can get some altitude.

[/ QUOTE ] Wrong. Getting immobilzed by TT's from a Death Mage prevents both. Quicksand...can prevent both....Caltrops can prevent both..etc...etc...

[ QUOTE ]
Because I'd rather defend WELL, and to defend well you need to use every power available.

[/ QUOTE ] No. You don't need every power available. Defending well or doing anything requires you use the right tool for the job. AoE knockback may stop some damage for an instant...but it can cause more problems. Killing is most efficient in CoH when mobs are together. If you can't understand how AoE knockback is more often than not, anti-thetical to that purpose...then that would explain a lot.

Knockback can be a life saver. I use RF on my FF prolly ever single mission. I don't want it on my attack powers. If I need to defend...i'll use a defenseive power.

And the big issue is that reliance on KB in EA will set you up for failure.

[ QUOTE ]
However, it is one of my best sources of aoe damage as a /arrow defender,

[/ QUOTE ] Though I find the three slotted damage uninspiring...I have no criticism for someone who uses it for that aspect.

[ QUOTE ]
Now if the situation would obviously be disrupted by any knockback created by EA, I will withold the power for that particular battle.

[/ QUOTE ] Right. And IMO, for my own specific build, I'd rather have a different power than having to make allowances for an unreliable knockback. What power? Acrobatics, Tactics, Entangle Arrow, Acid Arrow...etc etc. I rarely solo with my TA/A. I also try and make sure I team with high ouput damage dealers. I feel it is easier to find more AoE damage from teammates than it is from Arrow. To each his own.

[ QUOTE ]
and I have the placement tools necessary to put everything back where it needs to be if a disruption does occur.


[/ QUOTE ] If I could as easily and reliably put people where I wanted them...I wouldn't sweat the knockback as much. As far as just manipulating their movements..I find my own mobility and aggro management can be more effective than the unreliable knockback of EA. I've tried it slotted up on Test.

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is that EA is not a situational power. It is a damage power that you must use with a greater awareness of the battle, but not one that you should save for that special moment you need everyone OVER THERE NOW.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, yes and no. You've already stated that there are times you won't use it. There is no time I won't use Blazing, Fistfull, or Snap Shot (endo notwithstanding).

And again, my response to EA is more about the value of its kb...not its dmg. Bone is trying to tell me it's some vitally important power to what TA/A is all about.

[ QUOTE ]
It just takes skill to use KB in such a way that it sometimes benefits an AOE focused team, while it is extremely easy to use it in such a way as to completely cheese off your teammates.

[/ QUOTE ] Exactly. I have Shockwave on my Claws. I love the power...but I don't use it very often. Very situtional..but can be very useful. However, the fundamental difference between SW and EA is that SW is a LOT more reliable at knockback.

KB is generally much better for a soloer IME.

[ QUOTE ]
In 2 seconds with Rad I have already slowed mob recharge to a crawl AND lowered most if not all of the damage of a mob by 30% ignoring the additional -res debuff

[/ QUOTE ] My post is not giving you the full details....

1) it was out doors.

2) it was six person team

3) She would aggro one group while the tank was off fighting someone else. I was staying with the tank.

My wording also probably needs a comma...I would FA ...then PGA after she fired on them. Because FA is anchorless....I could FA all the spawns in the immediate vicinity. Something you CANNOT do with RI. If I saw her looking in a given direction...I would immediately FA any spawns in her LOS. I would do this while already engaged in combat.

The team did not consistently stick close together. Anchor debuffing would have been of marginal value.

You know what kicked butt...Oil Slick, when we actually fought as a team. That power would dramatically stop the incoming damage. It kept the mobs in one place for PGA and DA to work...and as long as the Peacebringer didn't use that AoE knock back blast, it was extremely effective. And she loved the OS+Rain of Fire combo. She repeatedly kept asking me to lay it down.

As far as complaints about other defenders being better...Never heard a single one. Not one. The Energy blaster duo does prefer my Rad. We both have three slotted Hover and he just likes AM. My Rad is a better combo for the blaster, but it's not because fo the debuffing.

[ QUOTE ]
Or they have this lovely bit of knowledge called positioning, and use cone knockbacks to blow enemies toward walls or corners or Tankers. Or a power called hover, with which they can turn knockback into knockdown.

[/ QUOTE ] All of which begs the question.....why? I have enough skill not to need AoE KB to get the job done. While KB can be very useful in some situations there are many situations where having it attached to the power is a detriment.

Blue....your responses are crossing that line of asinine. It is not always possible to hover high enough to eliminate the knockBACK...it is not always possible to push the mobs into a wall. By stating that the power is situationally useful, I implicity acknowledge that it has uses. You on the other hand seem unwilling to concede that is the source problems in many instances. If you insist on acknowledging only facts which support your position and ignoring those that don't then I will ignore your posts from now on.

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Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled

[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't make me hurt you.


PS: Start flashing targets and stand inside of them and see how long your trick archer can tank them. I now have five possessed scientists (level 50) inside of RI, and they've been swinging at me for oh, ten minutes now. One of them actually got lucky and hit me with gale and pushed me completely away from the group. What did the group of five do? Yep, rushed me all together, keeping all of them still inside the RI radius.


My SR scrapper can't do this with just the SR defenses and no elude, by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this...but RI is a better debuff than FA on paper. Not only because it's got two debuffs, but because it's higher in value.

As such, there are situations where RI is awesome. There are situations were it's value is marginal. You ability to find a situation where it is awesome is not dispositive of anything, nor does it disprove anything that I've said.

My point is that in the context of teaming and playing, day in and day out, through good weather and bad,....RI's full potential for a to-hit debuff ONLY is not outdone by FA's debuff. If I had team of veterans...I'm going RI all the way. Give my Rad some status protection from an Empath or Kin, herd up the mobs...and RI alone saves a lot of time...the -def is awesome. Teams generally have the fire power...but against higher level mobs, they lack the accuracy. Why do I stick RI on the FF gen? Because radius issues aside, everywhere the gen goes...it's neutralized. It also makes it very easy to take the gen out quickly.

RI is a better power....I've said that like 10 times now. The game's environement counter-acts that power. Porters that pop in and out, are probably getting attacks off before they are hit by RI. That doesn't happen with FA.

Arc, do me a favor...show me the # of attacks someone has to be outside of RI for the 20% debuff to be as good as a partial 37% debuff. To the extent that you fight mobs that can avoid RI for that many attacks...FA is a better debuff. If you happen to fight mobs the clump like flies on [censored], then RI is better. If you fight things that disperse on aggro, like Thorn Casters...I'm going with FA.

I've been duoing a lot with my Rad and an EN blaster. On average, only a 1/3 of the mobs are in RI at any given point. His attacks tend to knock them all over the room. Gunners do not clump with the punchers. Sure...you can herd, but that takes time. On large teams...it takes coordination.

The other night in Croa...I was teamed with a blaster who just wanted to start every batttle. She knew it wasn't smart, but she enjoyed the rush. My TA was much better at debuffing mobs in that situation because I could quickly FA them and PGA them after she opened with an AoE. If that had been Rad...it would have been much harder. It was an out door mission and if not for FA, we would have aggro'd multiple groups frequently.

Bad PuG? Probably....but TA allowed me to keep it together with help from others..in a way that was easier than it would have been with Rad.

Rad is better. TA is still great.

[ QUOTE ]
My SR scrapper can't do this with just the SR defenses and no elude, by the way

[/ QUOTE ] My D3 took on a +2 wolf boss. He hit me once as I put DN on him...and not one time after that. Must have missed me 20 times before I killed him. No way my /SR is that good without Elude. What's your point?

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[ QUOTE ]
Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled

[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now behave. Force Bolt (for example) is one hell of a useful and effective power used properly. Knockback doesn't *have* to be used to spread mobs out! Force Bolt bounce shots to drop strays into debuff fields was always a Starshield specialty.

It just takes skill to use KB in such a way that it sometimes benefits an AOE focused team, while it is extremely easy to use it in such a way as to completely cheese off your teammates.

[/ QUOTE ]Let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand and not go extrapolation beyond the intended scope of the statements. We are talking about AoE knockback...not Force Bolt. I use Force Bolt like it's free XP with my FF. If Arrow or Trick Arrow had a single target knockback as reliable as FB, I'd take it in a heart beat.

Exploding Arrow...is underwhelming. Both as a reliable form of soft control and as a damage dealer. If people like it...more power to them.

But Cone Knockbacks are situationally beneficial...and more often than not, in conflict with the use of other powers. Most people who seem to use them indiscrimintely do so because they lack important knowledge about other AT powers i.e. Invinc, Soul Drain, Fulcrum Shift, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Mieux's happy dance on that link was premature.

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, it wasn't a happy dance. I actually believed Blue's post was the accurate one, especially considered it's dated later than the one I linked. I offered my link to show that I was not "pulling numbers out of my [censored]" as Blue's asinine response suggested.

I also stated specifically that the difference between FA and DN felt like more than 6% based on my use of the wrong AT modifer and the wrong value originally provided by Castle. So despite my math telling me one thing....I explicitly acknowledged that it did not conform to my observations.

[ QUOTE ]
Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled

[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?

[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please never speak on TA/A again. I'm sorry, but this TOTALLY invalidates every arguement you have had on this subject completely.

[/ QUOTE ]Right...because Exploding Arrow is part of Trick Arrow isn't it?

The entire discussion has been on Trick Arrow...not Arrow Bone_Head. And AoE knockback is one of the most disruptive powers to teams in the game.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, he said Darkest Night was equal to 37%. While RI might be under DN, don't pull numbers out your [censored] unless you estimate on the end which least fits your concept.

I also believe that your tohit debuff values for Flash Arrow are off. Goofy's shown numbers suggesting some significantly lower than yours, which may be due to miscommunication.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that would conflict with this then wouldn't it:

[ QUOTE ]
A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.


[/ QUOTE ] Bite my shiny metal [censored].

Link

And I don't "know" the values for FA.

I will also state on the record that the diff between FA and DN/RI does feel like more than 6%...but that is more of a subjective call.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically: if it was meant to be taken down by more than 1 team, it gives the badge. Mission versions are scaled down versions that are more like AV's, thus able to be defeated by a single team, and thus do not give the badge.

[/ QUOTE ]No doubt. A team of a four took out Jack of Irons...and one was a TA/A....NERF TRICK ARROW!
You might need to buff Giant Monsters then. There's not one in the game that requires more than one team to defeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to ignore the defense debuff of RI why not at least slot it equally to Flash Arrow

[/ QUOTE ] Castle explicity stated that DN three slotted was a 30% acc debuff. Are you saying RI is higher than DN?

[ QUOTE ]
But you haven't played a TA pre-ED with SO's?

[/ QUOTE ] You bring this point up several times throughout your reply. I guess I fail to see how it's relevant? We are talking about how TA compares to other sets now Dark..pre-ED was awesome. Way way way...overpowered for pure defending, IMO. One some levels that can be a plus...but the reality is that it ended up being a minus, IMO, because they trivialized fights for teams.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, FF and Sonic both have those bubbles they can phase shift the mob with, so take them off your list.

[/ QUOTE ] Actually you don't. Those bubbles make the mobs phase out. Which means you can't attack them either. Holding a mob turns off its debuff AND you can attack them. I use DF quite a bit with my FF. Even when I DF right at the start...often the team has to wait a bit for the DF to drop. In the mean time, the mob avoids any debuffs or damage they might have received. DF and Sonic Cage are not the same as Holds. Sometimes they are way way better...sometimes they cause unnecessary delay.

[ QUOTE ]
Also Defender secondaries like Elec have holds (tesla cage)

[/ QUOTE ] That's irrelevant. Knockout Blow has a hold, so does that diminish the value of PG for Dark? No. We are talking about Defender primaries. What secondaries, or power pools, or other AT's can or can't do is irrelevent to whether the primaries are balanced against one another unless you are going to bring up asymmetric synergies....which you haven't.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, would you tell people not to play any defender set then?

[/ QUOTE ] No. Dark and Rad are so good, that even played marginally, they are decent. The core value of FF is pretty straight forward and even noobs can grok bubbles. TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge. Remember that Atta misison? No point in using Glue Arrow against mobs that are -1 if you have a +2 blaster. Especially when you know that +2's might be over the crest. Undertstanding your own teams weaknesses and powers let's me tell the blaster to save the AoE until after they see the DA graphic or to use the AoE to light my Oil Slick.

[ QUOTE ]
It's inaccurate as hell.

[/ QUOTE ] Missing 1-2 mobs in a group of 10-12 is not an issue in my opinion. True...there have been those rare circumstances where it misses like four out of five...but dont' see it as a general problem with one Acc. Plus...I got Tactics at 24.

[ QUOTE ]
You could probably perma-Unstoppable with that (oh how I miss thee perma-Unstoppable). Why isn't that balanced for worst case scenario? Or any highly effective click power with a long recharge? I doubt they took into account team make up when they set the recharge timers.

[/ QUOTE ] My understanding is that they did. Maybe Arcana or Kali can tell us what it takes to get Perma-Elude under ED.

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen them on test pre-ED and live pre-ED and I can tell you that they were NOT overpowers on live by any streach

[/ QUOTE ] And I'm not here to say that you're wrong...but I am here to tell you that the devs didn't agree. Obviously they saw something that they felt was too good. Whether they went to far or not far enough is a subjective call...not an objective one as some on here attempt to claim.

[ QUOTE ]
Relying on groups to pause to be effective is a bad.

[/ QUOTE ] From a design perspective, i agree. I am not here to say that TA was perfectly designed. In fact I've implicitly argued the opposite. I am here to say that if you are skilled, TA is a great set or to put it in more palatable terms for the carebears...TA can be a great set..

[ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't mean the set doesn't need ANY work.

[/ QUOTE ] You'll have to point to a quote of mine where I say the set shouldn't receive any work.

[ QUOTE ]
but trust me when I say I know what it feels like to have TA/A be even more effective than you.

[/ QUOTE ] I played TA on Test when it was first there. I didn't like it much. I kind of thought it sucked. The activation time felt punitive and with TO's (which are arguebly not worth even slotting) the set seemed slow and ineffective. But I had already reserved an arrow name and if it wasn't for some young arrivals to my SG...my TA might still be lvl 10.

[ QUOTE ]
But I also warn them that Flash arrow doesn't really debuff accuracy at all

[/ QUOTE ] Castle said that FA and SG are the same base value *AT modifier. SG is thougth to be 10%. That puts FA at 12.5%. With three SO's. FA is just under 25% debuff. That's a stick debuff...that goes where they go. Think about the math. How many attacks does something need to be out of RI, a 30% debuff, before a permernant 25% debuff is better? (let's ignore the added defense debuff for the sake of argument).

EDIT:
My AT modifier is off. It should be .125, not .25. So that's 11.25%...and around 20% debuff. That feels more like what it actually is.

[ QUOTE ]
The KB does go directly away from you

[/ QUOTE ] is it the same trajectory as Energy Torrent? My memory was that it was more like a footstomp knockback. But as I said...I've seen this power used all of one mission...and every time it got fired I'm like "Who keeps doing that?!!?!!"

[ QUOTE ]
My point was primarily that Shrapnel (ie Lethal) should remain the primary component.

[/ QUOTE ] Ok.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?

[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.

[ QUOTE ]
Grenades are lethal because of the explosion (very hot expanding gasses - fire) and the shrapnel of the grenade casing

[/ QUOTE ] Standard grenades in the military do their damage from concussion and shrapnel...most of the damage is from shrapnel. The fire damage is incidental if there is any. There are incindiary grenades which are intended light things on fire. Whether Exploding Arrow is one or the other is arbitrary...but the idea that it would be all smash/lethal is totally plausible even if it is not convenient.

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot seem to EVER light oil slick outside.

[/ QUOTE ] I haven't tested with specific as to inside outside, but I do notice that BA has a very unreliable effect outside when I'm hunting. When I was teamed with the /Rad defender, she lit 100% of the time outside with her Rad attacks.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the critters you were fighting hit it with an AoE?

[/ QUOTE ] Critters can hit it? Haven't seen this yet.

Btw, OS is bugged in Pocket D. When I put it down, it shows up as a blue invalid target. I tried to get a villian to attack it but they never go aroudn to doing it before the mission ended.

The majority of times it lit, I lit it with BA. As a solo toon, BA is not 100% reliable. I've also been in a duo with an En blaster and had it not light. THe other night with a /Rad defender, it lit 100% of the time when they atttacked it...but it only happened like 4 times in a row.

All of which leaves me largely confused on the reliability of lighting OS based on team members and method.