Malrathad

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2) Bodyguard mode shouldn't depend on defensive stance. Follow I can understand, they can't guard you if they're not there, but anyone with any military experience can testify that you don't have to be defensive to protect a 3rd party.

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Contrary to popular belief, "how things work in the real world" isn't really taken into account when it comes to game balance. The defensive stance requirement is purely and totally to create a trade off effect: you give up being able to actively direct your minion's attacks in return for defense. It's got nothing to do with realism.

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Think about that. What if a Tanker could only hold agro 45% of the time

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I think a Tanker would be pretty lucky to hold aggro 45% of the time in PvP.

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about 100

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That's not half of Laser Beam Eyes. It's quite a bit over half.

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laser beam eyes does double what our piddly patron attack does

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What is the damage from a Brute using one of his patron ranged attacks at level 50 with 3 damage SOs in it?

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yeah range can be a little useful in PvE, but having a dinky ranged attack in pvp is worthless

and this is the lvl 41 power

40 levels above the lvl 1 power. it should be like twice as strong and have a range of like 50 feet

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Laser Beam Eyes has uses in PvP. As a melee player, surely there have been situations in which someone is almost dead, but managing to stay ahead of you and out of your reach. Laser Beam Eyes can finish the job (and I've seen it used that way too).

Melee class damage is balanced around the fact that people can GET AWAY from you. Right now Laser Beam Eyes hits me for about 130 in RV; doubling that in accordance with your proposal would be 260 out of my 1000ish health, or 1/4 of my total life. I don't think you need to be able to 4 shot me with Laser Beam Eyes for it to be a meaningful attack (and with Build Up, it would only be 3 shotting, since the first would be doubled. A Built Up critical would almost one shot me).

Why should you as a Scrapper get a 260 damage ranged attack in your epic when NONE of my attacks do 260 damage as a Dominator?

To some extent I feel Dominators right now actually perform better SOLO against many archetypes than they do against team. The reason for this: Clear Mind (and similar buffs). The better the opposing team, the closer your mez capabilies come to true uselessness, because while there's counterbuffs for most buffs (e.g. +damage and +resistance, +accuracy and +defense), there are very, very few ways for us to counter +mez resistance, which is a pretty commonly availible buff. Yes, we can stack past it, but it's all ready the case that I need to use more holds on a Scrapper to hold him than he needs to use hits to kill me outright; adding to that number without being able to anywhere nearly as effectively subtract from it really hurts. It's not impossible to overcome, but I can't say I feel it's balanced and reasonable.

In one on one in I7, Dominators seem to do pretty well to me. In a good team vs unorganized team environment Dominators do great (and always have; but anyone always has done great in good team vs unorganized team). In a good team vs good team environment, Dominators seem to become less effective than I feel they should be, because our mezzes become less and less effectual with break frees being backed up by Clear Minds, Clarities, Sonic Dispersions, and so forth. There needs to be more ways to counter +mez resistance before I feel Dominators are balanced in a good team vs good team environment, because our secondaries just don't do enough damage for us to truly carry our weight when our primaries aren't fully functional.

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it'd be cool if we got a containment that locked down enemies harder, instead of the controller's version which does more dmg

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It would be useless in PvP, and in PvE we don't need it. I can't say I'd be entirely thrilled if they added it to the archetype.

Statesman and Positron both do more than my total health with a single attack. Manticore, conversely, seemed to suck; his purpose seemed to be hitting us with weak area effects so Statesman's incredible one shots could get past the one shot code (and, given I survived a 2500 damage hit from Statesman the first time he tried it, the one shot code seems to be working).

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My understanding was that dominators already had mini-containment. Do they not have X2 base damage on held foes in pvp and pve?


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<Shakes head emphatically.>

No Containment. No mini-containment. They do not do 2 X base damage in PvE and PvP.

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Wouldn't that just be.. neat?

2X containment for PvP, and I would never complain about anything again.

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I'd complain about how easy it was to kill people.

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They do triple damage in PvP. Thats right Triple.

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Only against other players, not against mobs such as turrets.

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I can't say how much damage a Controller is doing to turrets really bothers me. With a heavy behind you, taking a pillboxes turrets out is so fast that I can't imagine most classes even bothering to waste their endurance helping it.

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Seems to me the same sort of mechanic (and the same justification!) could be used to give us triple damage in PvP when we have Domination up. I could live with that...

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Although I'm keen on Dominators being improved, I have to say I all ready kill people pretty damn fast when Domination is up. I hate to say it, but I really think this is an example of Containment in PvP being "too good" rather than Domination being "not good enough." A non-damage focused class shouldn't be hitting for 400-600 damage - ever.

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What do people think of the idea that, in PvP, the mez strength during domination is increased so that a single application can break an unbuffed melee status protection?

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I think that would be justifiably complained about, as it makes our holds about 4x more effective than they are by default. I'm all for improving Dominators, but I think that's just too much.

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I would find it ironic that some dom's are calling for containment nerfs, seeing that its only a matter of time before people start calling for domination nerfs. "Its too strong...they can get it up too quick, or it lasts too long *snicker*...they tear through my mez protection..."

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I think there's a decided difference between what Domination can do, and Controllers attacking me for 400-600 damage with individual shots. Most Blaster ranged attacks don't even hit me that hard, and they have 2 damage sets, as opposed to zero.

Many people have a problem with Containment because it takes Controllers, who sacrificed a damage set for 2 utility sets, and hands them back damage. In RV, if you get held by a Controller and don't use a break free VERY fast, you're dead, period. And I mean within seconds, far faster than I kill even with Domination up. If not for Containment, I could see it possibly being livable to play without Break Frees. With Containment, it's an absolute necessity.

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Its not bad but it doesnt fix the underlying problems.

One of the main ones being we are too dependant on domination.

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Early on, maybe. With TO's, the duration boost is almost necessary for holding bosses. However, my L35 mind/psi regularly completes missions without ever using it.

Regardless, isn't that rather like saying brutes are entirely too dependent on fury, or stalkers too dependent on assassination?

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On the other hand, few Heroes are "dependent" on their inherents, which tend to be more "pure bonus" than "vital balancing feature." That may be the source of some of the issue.

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What do we do in Sirens/Bloody with our toggle dropping power that only has a 5% chance to drop a toggle? If they moved Dominator pets up so they are available @ 24 and left controllers as is I would be happier than I am now.

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Can't say that would help me much as a Mind Dominator, personally. That may just be my cross to bear, though.

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Couldn't it just be that Dominators get the pets earlier and not controllers? After all, they do have containment (3x in PvP), critical holds and buff .

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I thought the proposal was that as part of pets being moved to earlier on, they'd lose Containment and just keep "Critical Holds" as their inherent. I think it'd be totally reasonable for non-Containment Controllers to get their pets earlier, personally.

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I like the suggestion of early pets, but that makes Controllers a little too much "chibi masterminds" for my tastes.

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Wouldn't it just mean they became "chibi masterminds" at level 12 (or whatever) instead of 32? I don't see the difference in the end result, only in the ability to solo your way up there at a reasonable rate.

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I think these two changes would fix Dominators:

1) The Domination bar does not decrease unless you are defeated, leave the game, activate Domination, or 10 minutes pass without you attacking a target.

2) While the Domination bar is ready (and you are sparkling), you receive a buff of +5% to base Defense and all Damage Resistance, and a +1 to Magnitude versus all Mezzes. This bonus is lost when Domination is activated.

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I can't say this would meaningfully change my experience as a Dominator at all. As much as people seem to like to "think small" to make their suggestions seem reasonable, people suggesting things like "5% damage increases," or "5% defense bonuses," are failing to realize that if there actually IS an issue, miniscule changes aren't going to make up for it. +5% defense wouldn't even be noticable, certainly not worth NOT using Domination for, and I can't say I have a problem with Domination Decay at all. And if there isn't a problem, we don't need these things in the first place.

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The reason the devs put containtment is the only ones who really played controllers where those that had them powerleveled.

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If by "powerlevelled" you mean "levelled with a team," yes, I agree. And I feel that was totall fine. Why? Because the archetype was outright advertised as a team-focused archetype. Of course it wouldn't have appealed much to soloers.

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Since no one wanted to suffer through 32 levels of boring suckage.

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It's only "boring suckage" if you solo, which was never meant to be a Controller's strong suit. They give up a damage set in return for 2 very useful utility sets. If you go ahead and hand them back damage, things get askew. Concern's solution would have been a much more reasonable one than Containment, and would actually solve a couple complaints about Dominators too: pets coming sooner in the set is just plain reasonable.

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actually being able to hold people despite them using breakfrees would be nice, even if we have to have domination running and stack 2 holds, i want it to be reasonably possible

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I've had situations where people have used a break free against me but still been held. The problem arises when they use like 5 and become virtually immune.

If break frees had a 30 second effect, 30 second cool down, they would be much easier to overcome; they'd allow sufficient mez protection to GET AWAY from your mezzer, or maybe down some other useful inspirations that might help you, but not enough to allow you to fight them while being completely able to IGNORE their mezzes as a non-factor.

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let me see

controllers get better holds than doms
controllers get buffs/debuffs
controllers get medium-high dmg with containment

doms get worse holds 90% of the time
doms get low-medium dmg 90% of the time

hmm im not feeling any pity for the poor controllers

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controllers get strong holds
controllers get buffs/debuffs
controllers get low-medium dmg with containment

doms get moderate holds
doms get medium-high dmg


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Containment is an abomination that shouldn't exist. Critical Holds are all the inherent Controllers need. Not doing meaningful levels of damage is the logical result of not having a damage set. Each time I take a 400 damage blast to the face from a Controller on test, my opinion on this is reinforced.

I'm finding that with Acrobatics and Aid Self, survival actually isn't that difficult. The downside is that getting these powers requires you to take a specific travel power (albeit a good one for PvP), as well as 3 specific powers beyond that. In the end, though, I feel it's worth it. When Blasters and Scrappers can take off MOST of your health with one melee hit, and even TAnkers can take off a good half, you just plain NEED a self heal, and if you CAN be knocked down you WILL be knocked down, and that's generally enough for them to get in the next hit. Acrobatics is also sufficient to ignore a Tanker or Scrapper's ranged hold from their epic sets, which REALLY saves on the break frees.

These would have been great things for our Patron Pools, though I'm currently under the belief that at least one pet -- Scirrocos -- will heal you while he's out, so that's at least something.

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With Ice/Ice, I have no choice but to close to melee range if I want to drop toggles, which is my most effective power.

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As a Mind/Ice, let me just say my greatest effectiveness in RV so far has been staying BACK and NOT trying to drop toggles. Even Tankers hit too hard in RV to be worth running up to and swinging Greater Ice Sword at until they're locked down. Avoid them, break them down with your hold and build Domination with your blasts; it goes up very fast. Once Domination is up, locking them down is cake and they die fairly easily.

Most of my deaths have been due to lag or gangs. Most of my "legitimate" deaths have been to being 2 shotted by a Hero who took me by surprise. In situations where I was properly aware, not lagged, and not outnumbered, I seemed to do pretty well, and I definitely won more "fair" encounters (where the two sides are within 1 member of each other) than I lost, and that includes some situations where it was me against 2 Heroes.

On that note, I think I am going to depart this conversation. I certainly enjoyed speaking with at least some of you on this matter, but ultimately the bulk of people who I am championing here simply don't come to the forums in the first place, and those that might post in agreement have been shouted down sufficiently at this point to have ceased, so I'm left more or less being lambasted by some very angry, spiteful individuals who simply aren't interested in discussion (with an exception or two, obviously). That, on top of the total ridiculousness of some of the assertions -- such as being told "Stormers dont have ranged powers," and the ridiculous attemps at justification that followed; good for a laugh, but not interesting conversation -- I'm left feeling a bit uncomfortable.

I really am sorry so many of you are so angry about this matter. I'm sorry that you can feel so much anger over a game in the first place. I'm not sorry for feeling the focus of the game's balance should be the majority of players rather than you, however, or for feeling Hurricane simply didn't line up with other powers in terms of effectiveness to counterability ratio. I'm not sorry for thinking it's not FUN for people to be pinned against walls and sitting there, even if in elite team PvP, it can be avoided effectively.

If you are as skilled as you assert to be, however, I've no doubt you will adapt to what happens, and to that extent these angry complaints will be nothing but a slightly embarassing memory for you soon enough, and you'll be asserting once again, "Everything is fine as it is," and getting angry over whatever large change comes next. Good luck, and enjoy any further discussion.

P.S. TerpMan, please stop forum stalking me. It's creepy; you seem to hate me for some reason, fine, but honestly, cut it out, because people shouldn't have to see it. Feel free to send me angry PMs if you really want to.

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you're trying to make the game like guild wars

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I'm not trying to make the game like anything, I have no executive control over what does or doesn't happen. Calm thyself.

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you're trying to argue that no one wants to think they just wanna sit and press their powers and have their win button.

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No, no I'm not. Arguing that my case is made because I "don't want people to have to think," is a fallacy.

Hell, if anything you can look at it as Stormers needing to think a bit MORE, eh?

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[but I'm sure I'll keep getting insulted anyway because I dared to go against the Consensus.



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Or maybe because all of us MORE experienced PVPers are right?

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Oh Christ, take the joke for what it was subway boy. You take yourself far, far too seriously.