LeMoiCavalier

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I kinda like the idea of Permafrost being switched to slow, and here's why!

1) I still was never going to slot it even if it gave Toxic resist, it's just not worth the slots.

2) If this's a BIG Slow Resist boost, then Ice tanks are in the unique position of being the only ones pretty much unaffected by those POS Earth Thorns and Artemis.

I personally will take the ability to chase down and pimpslap Earth Thorns over a little Toxic resistance any day. Thorns are Ice killers, this at least lets us catch the bastards so we can hack em up with a Greater Sword.

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Uh? Ice as it is right now has no problems against slows other then the ones comming from caltrops, and that is only true past level 40. Both WI and EA offer slow resistance.

The only way things are going to slow you down is if you get more then 4 applications on you (Think crey radiologist, CoT's mages, swarm, BPs).

Not saying that more slow resistance is not nice, just saying that giving permafrost slow resistance is not making that power any more desirable. Specially since we're going to be stuck fighting 1-2 groups of even level mobs at the time... Under those conditions the only slows we need to worry about is ninjas and KoA, and that is true only if they don't fix whatever is wrong with those things.

All that of course unless they are thinking about removing WI's Slow resistance. I can see the devs doing something like that, after all that has been the whole idea behind I5: "Nerf the hell out of good/cool builds/powers so the weaker/lame builds/powers look good"

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Not only does Ice Patch offer the already mentioned benefits and doesn't need a to-hit role *cough* and can be powered out three at a time (with recharge slotts)...

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Yeah, but Fault slotted with disorient and I can leave stuff disoriented for more than a minute. And it only takes 20s to get the power back. And it can work on Bosses with a single application, which I'm pretty sure Ice Patch can't.

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Yes it does. The only mobs that a single Ice Patch can't knockback are AVs and some mobs with knockback/down/up resistance (And even the later will get knockback once in a while. Example: Wolfs). By the way, Ice Patch can even knockback must flying mobs...

Not that any of that is related to the problems Ice Armor has, after all the devs shouldn't balance a primary based on the secondary! I'm just saying.

One thing is for sure: Disoriented mobs can't atack. All Ice Patch does is reduce their atack rate (I think of Ice Patch as a PBAoE Fear w/o the accuracy debuff)

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I find it strange that we have toxic resistance in Hoarfrost, a very slow recharging power that is usually slotted for heal and recharge. (I'm not even positive you can slot resistance in Hoarfrost. I've just never tried.)

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What seems strange is that they haven't fix Toxic yet. And yes, you can slot hoarfrost with resistance.

About the changes... What can I say? I think the word I'm looking for is worthless, but I guess we have to wait until all these changes go to test... And still waiting for the announcement "EA's defense has been increase to 1.5% per mob. It's recharge time has been increased to 180 seconds"

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Weave doesn't stack with any Ice Tanker +DEF abilities. It would only protect vs. Toxic and Psionic damage.

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According to a PM I got from Cuppajo it does. I can't say I've tested it myself so I'm just going to take their word for it (This whole I5 fiasco happen around the same time, bigger fish to catch)

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Guys, I realize Statesman had the math a little wrong, but it was only off by about 1%. I don't think it was making that much of a difference.

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The point is that if he is wrong about that, what else? This whole I5 business shows either a poor understanding of the game, or that something is very wrong with the numbers they're using.

It's not the 1st time something like this happen. Right before I4 he did some testing with scrappers, and he was defeating 20-ish +7 minions in just a couple of minutes. The problem was a faulty enviroment: Accuracy and Damage were registering everybody as even level mobs (Mobs and heroes alike, so heroes were doing damage as +7 to the mobs, and the +7's were doing damage as even level to the hero)

So, no! It doens't seem important, but the question is: Can we really trust their tests and ideology behind I5?

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People have recorded the base of Invincibility at 3.5%, so I was only going by that, please feel free to give the correct number (for range too please!)

3.5% * (1 + (6 * .22)) = 8.12% per mob.

8.12% * 14 mobs is 113.68.


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The number isn't 3.5% base - it's 1.5%. To be honest - I don't know where the data came from that led to 3.5%.

Certainly, your points on Toxic and Psi are true; let's not forget that Invulnerability has an inherent weakness to Psi in Unyielding, though. It's safe to say that Ice is better (albeit marginally) because it lacks that weakness.

You're 100% correct about assuming 14 mobs in EA AND Invincibility - though something else isn't taken into account. Invincibility works only while mobs are in melee. So as the number of mobs decrease, Invincibility decreases. If a Tanker leaves melee range for 1 second, the buff from Invincibility fades...This isn't the case with EA; it's a click that lasts 45 seconds. The calculation of mobs is done at the moment it's used - and that buff carries throughout the 45 seconds. It doesn't decrease like Invincibility.

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At last check, Ice still had no psi defense (sans Weave)

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I'm sure he was talking about Unyielding Self -Def, meaning that Inv has a better change of getting hit by psionic...

Or at least that's how I took it, but with the latest display of knowledge this guys are giving I'm not so sure anymore.

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But Invul doesn't get any Psionic Def either... so a debuff of Any% wouldn't make any difference at all.

How can you DeBuff 0%?

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Let me give you an example:

Even minions have a 50% chance to hit you. If you have a -10% defense debuff, then that same minions is now going to have a 60% Chance to hit you.

Yes! You can have negative defense, that's the whole idea behind unyielding's defense debuff. I doesn't offer a defense, but it offers a debuff.

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People have recorded the base of Invincibility at 3.5%, so I was only going by that, please feel free to give the correct number (for range too please!)

3.5% * (1 + (6 * .22)) = 8.12% per mob.

8.12% * 14 mobs is 113.68.


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The number isn't 3.5% base - it's 1.5%. To be honest - I don't know where the data came from that led to 3.5%.

Certainly, your points on Toxic and Psi are true; let's not forget that Invulnerability has an inherent weakness to Psi in Unyielding, though. It's safe to say that Ice is better (albeit marginally) because it lacks that weakness.

You're 100% correct about assuming 14 mobs in EA AND Invincibility - though something else isn't taken into account. Invincibility works only while mobs are in melee. So as the number of mobs decrease, Invincibility decreases. If a Tanker leaves melee range for 1 second, the buff from Invincibility fades...This isn't the case with EA; it's a click that lasts 45 seconds. The calculation of mobs is done at the moment it's used - and that buff carries throughout the 45 seconds. It doesn't decrease like Invincibility.

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At last check, Ice still had no psi defense (sans Weave)

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I'm sure he was talking about Unyielding Self -Def, meaning that Inv has a better change of getting hit by psionic...

Or at least that's how I took it, but with the latest display of knowledge this guys are giving I'm not so sure anymore.

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7.5% base * (1+ (6 Enhancements * .2 Enhancement increase)) * 1.15 for +3 Enhancements = 18.975.

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Like others have pointed out, bad math...

The forumla is

7.5 * (1 + (6 * 0.2 * 1.15)) = 17.85%

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Kind of brings you back to the whole I4's Scrapper's test with wrong numbers and enviroment, doesn't it?

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The number isn't 3.5% base - it's 1.5%. To be honest - I don't know where the data came from that led to 3.5%.


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The number comes from the fact that we don't have access to those unless we do the testing. And like more things with this game it's easier to determine damage and resistance numbers then defense and accuracy.

The same reason why we all were thinking that WI and EA weren't giving any defense (Silly us were thinking that was a bug)... The fact is that the numbers are so ridiculously low that they were mistaken as simple statistical errors...

Funny how all this works, isn't?

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Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).

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So I take it that now Ice Tanks should move there WI slots to CE, slot WI with end, EA with recharges and CE with def debuffs. So now we have some SL in FA, Eng/Neg in GA and a def debuff in CE. Am I missing something here but isn't our def still gone? Without any gain from EA or WI?

Perma Frost is still a power that is questionable to take because frankly the two types of dmg that are most rarely used are toxic and cold. The game is really SL and Fire from 1 to 50. That is the majority of the dm types coming against us (at least in my experience).

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You are reading wrong. They are adding damage debuff, not defense. By the way, there is no such thing as a damage debuff enhancement.

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Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...

This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).

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I still don't like the idea of having a damage debuff and think is yet another lazy/poor solution, but I have to admit that so far that is the best idea you guys have come up with.

Would be nice to know the numbers. If I know you guys the -recharge debuff is now going to be 15% and the -damage is going to be 10%.

Anyways, they are going to be welcome changes for all the farming I'm going to be doing once I5 hits live servers.

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Why can't hoarfrost have the same recharge and affects as Healing Flames? Sure seems that defense could use the heals as much as my fire tank does.

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I'm sure I can answer that one: Because hoarfrost also provides a 40% HP boost (A la Dull Pain).
They would have to remove the HP boost. Personally I think permafrost should be changed into "healing flames".

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Just got out of a meeting with Geko...

I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.

Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.

We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.

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And yet another bunch of useless changes.

What it's surprising/sad is that took you guys a couple of weeks and a LOT of user feedback to realize this... Kind of makes you wonder about the state of the rest of the game (Not like we're not wondering already)

At least WI's change is only going to help those who don't visit the forums (More of a quality of life that has nothing to do with tanking quality). Permafrost still is a useless power that only those who were going to slot WI with defense are going to take (Unless you are planning on increasing Permafrost's Fire and Toxic resistance to 30% unslotted, something I'm against to as well. Ice don't need resistance, it needs smart ideas)

You guys are yet to address the real problems here:

- Our defense is horrible (We can't even cap even level mobs)
- EA is nothing but Consume (Fire Tankers)
- Horrible fire defense
- No psionic defense
- Mobs with high accuracy can do horrible things to us (With I5 that is basically every single mob out there)
- We are 1-3 shotted by AVs (Something you are not going to fix by reducing AV's damage, you are just increasing the gap between Ice and other tankers by doing that)

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Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).

Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.

17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).

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What is impresive is that you are not adding: "This, by the way, is a bug"

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Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.

Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).

*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*

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Horrible math apart, EVEN if we were able to reach YOUR numbers, that's too low of a number to be worth the slotting.

I knew you were going to come up with this "working as intended (tm)" bullsh*t, but deep down I was actually hopping for our defensive numbers to be a bug or a mistake.

EA just went from "that power that actually allow you to do some real tanking" to "that power that refuels your end since you have to 6 slot all of your armors with defense + wave with defense + tough with resistance + permafrost with resistance to be able to play your roll"... May as well just remove the option to slot EA with defense.

About AVs... That's a way to do it, but let me asure you that that option (Just like this whole I5 fiasco) it's just going to come back to bite you in the [censored].

And like I said many times before: Being 1 shotted by an AV is not that big of a problem as long as you have a good team with you and the AV is not higher then +2 to us, being 2-3 shotted is! And I5 is doing nothing to fix that! If anything it's just going to get worse... Unless of course you can get "the perfect team build", but with that "perfect team build" you have no use for a tanker.

One last thing, with the numbers you are giving for WI and EA we can now add a few defensive holes to our list:

- Psionic
- Fire
- AVs 1-3 shotting us
- High accuracy mobs *
- Mobs that lower defense *

(*) That is basically all of them now since we can barely cap even level MINIONS now... And don't give us that "what is your team doing (tm)" bullsh*t, you can't always get that perfect team build to compliment your holes... Unless of course you are thinking about implementing a "henchman" system a la Guild Wars.

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I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback.

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Nice ::rolls eyes::

More then a place to post I think that what we (At least me) were asking for was the damn numbers to defense that we are suppoused to be working/testing.

Anyways, nice to see those changes... Not quite sure why you guys didn't do that before, but whatever.

But to be honest I'm not quite sure if we can call that a victory or what. The truth is that with the changes to Ice Armor we can't even cap even level minions by six slotting our defenses, how are we suppoused to be tanking bosses or AVs? By having a pocket Force Field or Sonic with us at all times? Sending the blaster 1st so they can take the alpha strike like you suggest to do? All very unrealistic tactics.

And you can lower everyone's accuracy to 40%, that doesn't change the fact that Ice Tanker are the ones with the most defensive holes out there.

One last thing: Not that I'm not happy for the changes or the fact that you guys are acknowledging our precense... The problem is that I5 is bringing a bunch of poor solutions to a bunch of old problem that can't be stopped by nerfing the hell out of everybody (Including the villains). The problem is that you guys are nerfing everybody just to stop a few "bad apples" from "exploiting" the system... In fact with the introduction of I5 you're going to intensify those problems.

No more "stickiness"... I guess the "dialogue" is over.

All we need now is for Cuppajo to come here and say that Ice Tankers are working as intented, just like happen to the poor guys at the Dark Armors' CoF's threat.

But I'm sure that is not going to happen since EA "is still quite massive, and probably still too powerful (tm)"... I fear and loathe I5 so bad that I may as well change my forum name to Hunter S. Thompson.

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Circeus, did your avatar change? Oh, you just took off your hood. Put it back on, quick.

With all the excitement on E3 and COV, I just wanted to make a post that Ice fixes are still very important to me. Not even the Johnny Cochran defense of waving your arms yelling "Chewbacca, Chewbacca" will divert my attention from our plea.

OK, I fully admit that I am very distracted by City of Villains, but I do want changes for my hero who I feel is subpar as a tank.

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There's only one thing to say here: Ladies and gentlemen this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now, think about that. That does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee —an eight foot tall Wookiee— want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

Now! Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey!

As per I4 Update Notes:

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"# Granite Armor, Bright Nova, White Dwarf, Dark Nova and Black Dwarf have been made immune to Toggle Drop effects brought on by Brawl and similar De-Toggle abilities. These powers are still vulnerable to being shut down by Holds and Stuns.

* These are crucial powers that should be immune to toggle drops."

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That is a PvP change only, of course. As far as I know they haven't change that. Got that from here. Not that I care since I haven't, nor I plan to PvP.


Now... Hibernate. I still don't know what to think about that power and I've been using it for a while now.

The only reason I took that power is because I respec-ed into a solo machine (Read my previous post). During teams I use that power only when there is a good tanker with the group AND if we don't have some kind of healer with the group.

If I'm either the only tanker OR if there is at least a Storm user with O2, then that power becomes pure garbage... Specially when going against an AV.

Unstoppable allows Inv/ tankers to tank Carnies' Ring Mistresses and Sappers (I think that's why most Inv. tanker keep that power actually, or at least that's what I've been told)

Granite is 96-ish Res to all - psionics and a 30%-ish Def to all -psionic with a 4DamRes+2DefBuff slotting... Not to bad for a single toggle. Add Rooted and Teleport Self to that and you have a true brick all. The only reason I haven't roll a Stone Tanker is because I can almost see Hasbro heading that way.

Then there is RotF... Very unique power for a very unique power set. One thing is for sure: RotF is way better then Hibernate! At least you don't loose agro when you use it... That's good for the team (As a tanker the team is 1st, if they don't get deb I'm happy)

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As for the base raid skills, well, we all know Kublai can.

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That's funny...

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And geko still hasn't come back and convinced anyone that massive in the case of Energy Absorption ever equaled powerful.

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The more I play my new "solo/small" team build Ice/Ice tanker the more convinced I am that those changes were done to encourage people to team... The funny thing is that the changes to EA are affecting only the team tankers, not the solo ones...

I've been doing my missions solo/duo using the "invincible" settings. Most of the time I'm only running around with WI on, not even FA! EA provides more then enough defense. In fact, when soloing I don't even use EA! All I really need to be running to be able to finish my missions is WI.

And that's with Ice as my secondary! I can only imagine all the crazy things I could do if my secondary was Fiery Melee or Battle Axe 0_o?!

My current build allows me to actually be able to tank for big teams if need it, but only (like mentioned many, many times before) easy stuff! What does that means? I could farm Freaks, Worlfs and Nemesis all day long if I wanted to.

And what about not so easy stuff? I solo that. After all my blaster soloed most of his life, soloing with a solo-build Tanker is a whole lot easier. And for TF's/Trials? What I've been doing this last 3 days is bringing a real tanker or 2 alone (By that I mean Inv/ or Stone/)

This is the build I'm using right now. I'm sure I could drop CE and take BU instead to improve my damage and take the slots from health to have it up as soon as posible, but I like to bring big teams alone when fighting the easy mobs... Thus some of the power decisions. Like taking SS and Stealth so I can get close enough to use EA before being Alpha-ed.

Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh

Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Ranged : Ice Armor
Secondary Powers - Support : Ice Melee

01 : Frozen Fists acc(01) endred(3) dam(5) dam(9) dam(13) dam(31)
01 : Frozen Armor endred(01) endred(7) defbuf(11) defbuf(11) defbuf(15) defbuf(15)
02 : Ice Sword acc(02) endred(3) dam(5) dam(9) dam(13) dam(21)
04 : Hoarfrost recred(04) recred(7) recred(17) recred(19) recred(27) recred(50)
06 : Wet Ice endred(06) endred(50)
08 : Chilling Embrace endred(08) endred(31)
10 : Taunt tntdur(10)
12 : Hasten recred(12) recred(17) recred(19) recred(21) recred(25) recred(25)
14 : Super Speed endred(14)
16 : Swift runspd(16)
18 : Glacial Armor endred(18)
20 : Health hel(20) hel(43) hel(46) hel(48) hel(48) hel(48)
22 : Stamina endrec(22) endrec(23) endrec(23) endrec(27) endrec(31) endrec(34)
24 : Ice Patch recred(24) recred(34)
26 : Energy Absorption recred(26) endred(34) endred(37) defbuf(40) defbuf(40) defbuf(40)
28 : Freezing Touch acc(28) endred(29) hlddur(29) dam(33) dam(33) dam(33)
30 : Stealth endred(30)
32 : Hibernate endred(32) endred(50)
35 : Greater Ice Sword acc(35) endred(36) dam(36) dam(36) dam(37) dam(37)
38 : Hover fltspd(38) fltspd(39) fltspd(39) fltspd(39)
41 : Conserve Power recred(41) recred(42) recred(42) recred(42) recred(43) recred(43)
44 : Focused Accuracy endred(44) endred(45) endred(45) thtbuf(45) thtbuf(46) thtbuf(46)
47 : Grant Invisibility endred(47)
49 : Phase Shift endred(49)

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01 : Brawl Empty(01)
01 : Sprint Empty(01)
02 : Rest Empty(02)

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One thing that is positive with Ice Tanks in I4 is that we get Wet Ice at level 6 and there is no -SPD with the usage. The new knockback can be pretty severe ( a scrapper alt I was using today got knocked around like a ping pong ball by the council ). Wet Ice gives Ice Tankers a great built in anti-knockback power that allows you to tank without getting bashed by the villians. This alone has probably raised player's stock in Ice Tanks as we have mobility and knockback protection.

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Uh? That is pre-I3 information. All tankers get that... Except for the fact that other tankers get the status efect +Res at lvl 8 there is no difference.

Well... Then there is Fire tanker. They don't get knockX +Res, and instead of one power providing status efect protection they need 2 of them (One at lvl 1 and the other one at lvl 12). But then again Fire Tanker are a special case.

BTW, what kind of scrapper were you using? */DA I guess. They're the only scrappers w/o knockX protection... That or a very young one.

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Nothing special. Other than GA with +perception and an WI with improved Res to Slow... Slot resistance that doesn't work againts caltrops and swarms because... Well... Because they're auto-hit, and 6-8 slows is all we can handle. Oh! And the changes to Hibernate, a power that still as useless as ever.

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Thanks for the update LeMoi. Playtesting my Ice tank since I4 hit, and all is as you say. Now, I can't complain that EA is broken in the defense we get. I was still able to heard a portal mission of level 50-52 Paragon Protectors, in groups of 40+. I have FA now, but only use it for AV's and Monsters, so between WI, Tough and EA, I still had no problems with large numbers of higher level mobs.

So why'd we change EA again? So I couldn't do that? Didn't change a thing.

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Yep, that's about right. Like I said before: This changes are affecting only the tankers that want to be that! Tankers. We can still tank easy stuff, and by easy stuff I mean Freaks, Crey's, Wolfs (In fact we were and still are better at wolfs than other tankers), Nemesis if we're careful, and any other enemie that does only S/L and energy damage, with little of the rest.

What the changes to EA is doing to our set is stoping us from being efective against anything that uses lots of negative energy, radiation, or mobs with high accuracy... Plus the good old auto-hits, psionic and being 1 or 2 shooted by AV's.

What does that means? That now we are Fire Tankers without all the damage output. Specially if you're Ice/Ice like me. Before I used to say: Sure! Fire tankers can do a lot of damage! But I can out-tank them any day!... That isn't true anymore.

I'm really sad about my Ice/Ice Tanker now, and I wasn't going to play him anymore... But I can't just forget all the hours of fun and REAL tanking that I've been doing with him, that's why I've been playing around with different builds so I can keep playing with him!

This time my approach is different! I'm not looking to have a "team tanker" anymore! [censored] teams and [censored] TF's/Trials! Teams be damned! The new build is going to be a solo/small team oriented tanker. No more 5 slotting my armors, I'm going to become a EA [censored]... And if I ever join a TF/Trial, or if we're going against an AV/Monster I'll let them know that I'm the "back up" tanker.

Wolfs and Dreck! Here I come!

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Meh, but they don't really care about reason, from what I'm told. According to a friend it's all a vast conspiracy to make everyone roll fire tanks or regen scrappers. :P

And I'm starting an Ice/Ice blaster. <crosses fingers>

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You're going to have lots of fun with the Ice/Ice blaster. My Ice/Ice/FN Blaster is 50 now, and with the new Blizzard is now more fun than ever... Just remember that Blizzard still is not Nova. And like you say! Better cross your fingers!

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Ok, somebody who is lucky enough to be home, tell me if they did any of the following:

1. Increased the number of mobs EA can affect (more then 5)

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Nope. Same 5 mobs.

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2. Fixed the "bug" where EA doesn't endo drain off a mob that isn't one of the affected mobs

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Nope, Only 5 mobs being drained. And... Are we sure that's a bug? I hope it is.

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3. Changed anything else in Ice on Live or Training that may indicate they tried to help Ice out

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Nothing special. Other than GA with +perception and an WI with improved Res to Slow... Slot resistance that doesn't work againts caltrops and swarms because... Well... Because they're auto-hit, and 6-8 slows is all we can handle. Oh! And the changes to Hibernate, a power that still as useless as ever.

What I'm not clear is if we (Tankers) are getting Res to Fear and Confuse... I sure hope we are... Well... It doesn't really matter really! As of this moment my Ice/Ice tanker is opting for an early retirement until they do something to help the set, not to hurt it.