Kruunch

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the change I'm proposing is simpler and addresses other issues then just the endurance one.

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I don't think your solution, which applies to damage, recharge, healing, and all the debuffs is simpler (or simple at all) unless you're writing off all effects of those changes outside of endurance management. This would, for example, easily give any blaster with half a wit 50% more damage in the respective levels before enhancements. While I wouldn't complain, it'd also make make defense and resistance buffs much more effective at lower levels, when I'm led to believe their schedule for enhancements (20% instead of 33% for a SO) is to reduce the difference between base low-level values and higher-level enhanced values, which this would directly affect for all those who utilize the new lower level SOs.

Then, the common person that doesn't know how to handle enhancments and power choices pre-stamina, the type of person that is used as "proof" that such an endurance problem exists, would still have endurance problems because they don't understand what they're doing.

It would address the "endurance issue" in favor of those who need it the least.

edit: and that is to say nothing of the implicated effects on IOs, which would either be even more worthless at these levels, or possibly level-50 strength were enhancements to lose their scaling effect as they increase in level.

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20% vs 33%? Are you debating the difference between A and B schedule enhancements? If so, I'm not proposing that these change.

If you're saying that adding SOs to the L1-20 game would unbalance that portion of the game, you could possibly be correct (I don't know what (if any) scaling is done for mobs in this level range). The solution to this would be to buff mob HPs slightly in the L1-20 range to make these levels more transparent to the post 20 game (if warranted).

I don't think any buff of any sort should be considered if at its best is below the current prime rate

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I missed this reply from earlier:

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I'm replying to this again as an excuse to float my idea for a streamlined Enhancement system. Part of it is much improved Enhancements at level 1 (though not quite SO level.) I'll keep it short and sweet (numbers are approximates):

Origin Enhancements: These are the standard power Enhancements, equal to the current SOs. They become available at level 15 and you can only slot your own origin.

Training Enhancements: These Enhancements represent basic power training and are only 75% as effective as Origin Enhancements. However, they are quite cheap and available right from level 1 to 50.

Invention Enhancements: These are crafted Enhancements which increase in effectiveness by level. They start at level 10 equal to Training Enhancements, at level 30 they're equal to Origin Enhancements, and they continue to increase in power from there.

Note: Training and Origin Enhancements expire and need to be "refreshed", Invention Enhancements do not.

This would mean a boost to power levels early on, and enemies could probably get a bit of a boost to compensate. However, remember that slots are still limited.

Feel free to poke holes in this idea. Should I post it in the Suggestions forum, or just forget it?

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It's not a bad idea but why 75% effective? Why not just go the whole way? Balance wise there is virtually no difference for the content we're talking about.

Also changing over to all SO's is logistically easier (just rewrite the values for current TOs and DOs) and also covers price scaling since it's already in place.

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Training Enhancements would be less effective because they are essentially "discount enhancements". They're cheap enough that new players should have little trouble slotting them, possibly just what TOs cost now, but effective enough to keep up with the veteran players.

I don't think this idea is that work intensive. It improves the numbers on TOs (and low level IOs), removes DOs, and bumps SOs up to level 15.

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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to this idea and is the closest one to the one I proposed (hence the one I like the most other then mine ).

And you're right, it's not that much more work then what I'm proposing (barring any logistical loops I'm not privvy to of course).

And yes I would post this in the suggestions forum ... but I *really* think if we truly wanted a shot at getting a change made, that we should all (us Tankers) come to a consensus on the exact change we want and all post together.

Voices raised in unison tend to be heard more.

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Its true. Kruunch is the patron saint of SS tankers. I have a velvet painting of him in my bedroom.

What....too much information??


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I wouldn't be opposed to that (or several of the other ideas presented here either) ... but again the change I'm proposing is simpler and addresses other issues then just the endurance one.

That's fine except the player in question would have to be aware of having to go for it and complete it.

Additionally, it still does nothing for the general feel of the game going forward, other then to introduce the player to temp powers (which isn't bad mind you, but I think they would get more out of being introduced to "real" enhancements earlier).

Also it would be easier to make my changes, unless you're proposing switching one of the earliest temp powers which happen to be travel powers which many vet players have come to rely on. So you kind of derail that availibility (another common complaint) for the +recovery.

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If you haven't played one before you may want to glance at my mini-guide to the first 20 levels playing an Invuln, it will give you a solid foundation to build your tanker with. Later on you might want to check out my guide to soft capping your Invuln for more advanced suggestions and IO set recommendations.

Invuln is capable of some extreme feats now if built correctly; it can rival a Granite tanker for raw survivability.

Both guides are linked in my sig.

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C_M_A has written some great guides for Invuln Tankers, especially newer ones. I would follow his advice at first until you feel comfortable fiddling with your build more.

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Again, perhaps the simplest suggestion would be to reduce the recharge of Rest to thirty seconds. That would get rid of much of the pain in the lower levels.

I know that the predictable bunch will show up and say, "IF YOU DID THAT OMG REST WOULD BE OVERPOWERED!".

Yea, I augur that some will hypothesize that Rest with recharge of one half a minute would be too mighty to be countenanced. If thou thinkest so, in sooth the angels laugh behind thy back.

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Hmmmm ... rest every 30 seconds would work ... but I don't think it has the same advantages of turning TOs and DOs to SOs. Not only would the enhancement change get lower level characters more involved with building earlier, but would also allow players to correct other annoying aspects of the early game such as accuracy (which the current buff doesn't do a good enough job of imo), damage and recharge.

I don't feel that this would make lower level toons flatlined in progression as Cloud projects, as the toon still hasn't received a majority of the more interesting powers of its respective build yet ... it would be just alleviating those beginning powers (at the players discretion) while at the same time, specifically targeting the casual player who spends more time in those levels, which happens to be CoH's defacto demographic (CoH being considered a casual friendly game).

P.S. - I'm going to ask my wife to start using the word "aroint" from now on. I have no clue what it means and don't want to spoil it so shhhhhh,

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First off, I am not saying that the average customer must go screw. I certainly did not want to give off that vibe, nor was it my attention. My apologies if that was the case.


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I was exaggerating your points for emphasis ... I know you weren't directly implying "screw the customer". However by the same token, it's not hard to imagine the new customer (or potential new customer in the case of free trials) feeling like the game (and by proxy, its publishers/developers) is saying in effect "screw the customer" when it has been released for 5+ years and still has some very basic flaws.

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Most of my characters do have Stamina, in order to keep up or because they are endurance pigs. There are a couple that don't, or that probably don't need it since they have other tools at their disposal. I am not saying that Stamina isn't a great power, nor that it doesn't make the game a lot faster.

But I guess here is my point: if Stamina (the power) was removed from the game (or better yet, had never been put in), would people adjust to the new restrictions? I'm betting that they would. Stamina merely allows you to limit a certain restriction, sometimes to the point where it is no longer the primary restriction on your character's speed. At any point where that was put into the game, I would expect players to go for it.


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Well if Stamina never existed, do you think CoH would be enjoying less, same or more customers right now?

But before we get off on a further tangent, keep in mind that my changes would only effect the pre-Stamina levels for the most part (L20 and L21 being the only overlap).

In case we're losing track of my original suggestion to alleviate low level endurance issues (and other low level issues for that matter) is was to change TOs and DOs to SO enhancement levels while keeping the current pricing and availability the same for those level ranges (L1-20).

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People tend to take Stamina now. I am not going to argue that point (I am on your side with saying that I would bet a majority of players take it). With it in the game, Endurance becomes much less of a concern, to the point where people would tend to rate recharge or damage as their next slowing point for going at the speed they want. If a power was put into the game that was liek Hasten, but was passive, I'm betting that people would have the same complaints about that as they do about Stamina now - namely, that the game really doesn't get going until they get that power. And if that was in, and another passive power was put in that raised your damage by 100%, I'm betting that people would say that the game really doesn't get moving until you have that too.

People will always complain about what is limiting them the most. But there will ALWAYS be something limiting them the most. And they will always complain about that the most, and also try to mitigate it the most. It's pretty much human nature. I'm certainly not arguing with your right to complain about Endurance or the need for Stamina. I just feel that if Endurance was fixde to your satisfaction, that people would just complain about something else limiting them instead, and we'd be back here again, talking about that. It would really never end, because as soon as the Devs addressed one 'issue', there would be another that people were asking to be removed.

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We've all been frustrated by games in the past and we've all made our share of complaints ... sometimes that's led us to not bother with a game any more. Is it unreasonable to think that might be happening here in enough numbers to warrant this as a real issue as opposed to a run of the mill, uneducated complaint?

And the sad truth (of the world) is that the squakey wheel gets the grease. Consider how different this game would if no one had ever complained about any of the issues that have been changed since release. Would it be a better or worse game do you think?

What I'm proposing doesn't effect the higher level game, and I'm of the opinion that post Stamina levels are fine with respect to endurance usage. We have IOs to further our goals should they more then what regular Stamina can accomodate, and we have to work towards those goals to achieve them. This provides a sense of worth to the game and time spent in it and I believe that that is good for the game.

And to Cloud's earlier point, I think adjusting TOs and DOs to SO levels would further encourage the player base to pay more attention earlier to character builds, as they would then have tools to practically effect those builds earlier. It's also one of the reasons I don't like the Endurance buff that would fade at L20 suggestion ... it's a freebie with no thought on the players part as to what the rest of the game will be like with respect to their builds.

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Yeah we all have worked with Devs , we all have developed games, and we all don't have a lick a proof...

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If you look on the inside of the cover of your original copy of Dark Age of Camelot, you will see my name in the credits:

Alex "Kruunch" Lippe

Also, most of the old timers on these boards know of my involvement with Geko (along with the other old time Tankers) in getting the original SS changes implemented.

As for WoW and EQ, you'll have to take my word for it.

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Another plan would be to rebalance offense sets, lowering Endurance on the lower level attacks, and increasing them on the higher level attacks.

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True but that would require so much more work on the devs part then my suggestion, not to mention the possibility (probability really) of introducing unintentional bugs that would unbalance the game severely.

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Here we go again Sorciere, not playing the game again, stuck on these boards...I love the dichotomy....(big word of the day).

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You may be interested to learn that the lead class designer of WoW recently mentioned that he found the downtime for warriors to be a problem (most WoW classes have abilities to manage and reduce downtime, such as Spirit Tap for priests, and many classes do not have significant downtime at all if they play smart, such as hunters, death knights, or rogues). You may also be interested to learn, for example, that retribution paladin mana recovery in WotLK was specifically calibrated so that unless they used wasteful abilities or bit off more than they could chew, their mana recovery was meant to match their normal attack chains (and did).

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Lets see some actual statements from the lead designers. Proof, evidence, something that doesn't make me think that you just pulled that out of your smock. But if indeed this was the released statement, their not going to change the downtime for Warriors when mitigation in the form of bandages exist. I.e. the catch a breath in this game.

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Useit.com is the website of Jacob Nielsen, one of the pioneers of usability research. It is simply a commonly cited online resource. If you wish, I can probably find you peer-reviewed papers that cover the same topic.

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Let it be known that just because you can "google it" does not make said subject accurate or trustworthy.

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I have a dev credit for Dark Age of Camelot and have worked with the devs (and lead devs at times) for WoW, CoH and EQ. In each of those games, reducing downtime while maintaining the pace of the game was one of the paramount concerns.

Having said that, it has been a downward trend to this date. EQ introduced horrific downtimes (imagine waiting 15 minutes for your group to heal and med (end) up or taking over an hour to buff a raid) and since EQ, each successive MMO that has come along has reduced its down time even more where possible.

Since CoH is 5 years old, one could say it's 5 years out of date with respect to downtime (specifically with regards to the L1-20 game). Many older MMOs have adjusted their downtime cycles downward including WoW. CoH did it with in essence with IOs but this still hasn't effected the L1-20 game which is the essence of this thread with respect to endurance woes.

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Gauntlet is broken? Did I miss a memo?

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Sure, ask any Fire blaster, or scrapper. Its all "good" till your aggro literally gets pulled away due to some blaster's Snipe, or some scrappers quills....this is without taunt of course.

Then again pre I5 all this , "I don't take taunt" ranting would have never even shown up on the boards. But hey...time makes fool's of us all.

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That isn't broke Lac ... Gauntlet has a toHit check. If it misses, and another person damages the target, it overrides your proximity agro (assuming you've done nothing else to that mob).

Also to take Taunt or not to take Taunt has been a revolving issue since beta and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.

Sorciere: Are you sure about auras having auto-hit on the taunt effect? I could have sworn they used to have a toHit check.

Aett you are being disengenious and frankly you're more intelligent then that.

How many toons do you have? How many toons of yours have Stamina? I'd be willing to bet a vast majority. Why is that? Because playing the game without it sucks? There's a world of difference between "getting by" and "enjoying" the game and you know that.

These boards, the people I know and interact with in-game, the devs, the GMs, my own personal experience ... these are all apart of my "sampling bias". Does it make my point any more or less relevant? No.

Unless you're the least bit concerned about keeping your recurring income which CoH happens to be based on.

And while I agree that the average consumer is probably not aware of what's best for the long term viability of an MMO with respect to the demographic it's aimed at, the average consumer does know what is best for their long term viability in a given MMO. If most of them have the same complaint, common sense dictates that maybe it's not everyone else that has the problem ... maybe it's the game.

The attitude that the consumer can go screw (and/or is stupid) is a really bad one .... even when it does apply. Marketing 101.

Gauntlet is broken? Did I miss a memo?

Taunt isn't necessary ... over half my Tankers don't have Taunt and have tanked everything in the game. It *is* handy however. On a really tight build, Taunt is usually one of the first powers I feel that is expendable. However I've also been tanking a good long time, so I don't think this might necessarily apply to a newer Tanker.

Unfortunately my server (Justice) is fairly low pop, so I don't have the luxury of being able to put together a PUG with optimal support for the holes of my young Tanker, which is another reason why I don't take Taunt earlier (I usually wait until after L20 ... I'd never put off Stamina to take Taunt even on a WP Tanker).

1000 kudos for actually coming up with research validating user frustration at down times.

Also 100% agree.

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I find 22 is the point where a tank can reliably survive the aggro it brings.

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Huh? Your taunt aura will get you a lot more aggro at a time than the power Taunt (which you can elect not to use, too).

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Possibly more agro ... taunt auras have a toHit check while Taunt does not (in PvE) and since global accuracies are fairly non-existent at the pre L20 game, misses quite often (as does Gauntlet). In this case, missing with a taunt effect isn't a bad thing.

And I agree that taking Taunt too early will generally give the Tanker more agro then he/she can handle, depending on the situation of course.

I generally take Taunt in my 20s or even 30s if I take it at all.

But this should also depend on your grouping and levelling habits.

To add to what Sarrate has said, I usually recommend having one support person with you. With support, most well built Tankers can hang against LR indefinitely so even the less then optimal DPS teams have time to get the towers down.

Unfortunately the bug with the repairmen (repairmen healing towers before actually visibly spawning) makes it so that you might need to take down the same tower more then once. The STF takes longer now due to that, but still doable if you're set on doing on it now. I would expect this fixed by I16.

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Fortunately you're in the minority here.

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I doubt it. It's more like we are both in the minority of a minority (vocal forum posters) of a minority (forumites). So, neither of us has the right to claim "majority."


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Between the posts, the guides, the builds I've seen in game and the general advice given in-game and on these boards (and by GMs and Devs in the past I might add) put you in the minority (and a very small minority to boot).

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Historically speaking, MMOs tend to baby the first 20% of their levelling curve (virtually every MMO I've played since EQ in 99 has faster recovery forms for those levels). CoH is the paradox to this, where the first half of the game is the hardest, with the second half becoming exponentially easy.

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So what? This is CoX and not some other MMO. We are not talking about the first half of this game; levels 1-20 are more like 1/5 of the leveling process, and I find it laughable you consider 1-20 the "hardest." Perhaps you mean most tedious which is more subjective and entirely your opinion.


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MMOs operate with similar or same base systems for a reason ... they work. Because a tire company decides to make a square tire doesn't mean they shouldn't listen (and do something about it) to their customers who complain about it.

BTW 20 is 2/5 of 50, not 1/5. I say half, because after level 25 (by and large) is where the content changes from being challenging to pedestrian by and large. Part of that is where the tedium of endurance struggles end. Yes this is a subjective opinion. One shared by many people.

The hardest TF in the game currently is a full group Positron TF at L15. The only other TF that comes close to that is the MoSTF, and only because of its death/time/temp power limitations. This is also a subjective opinion based on having done everything in the game ... multiple times.


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Also I don't equate "skill" or "babying" people with having them fight against out of context game mechanics. Making a person take 10 minutes to get through an encounter that should take 1 minute because they have to watch while their end bar tick up enough to launch another attack isn't lack of skill ... it's just bad design.

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Using hyperbole to state your argument will only show it's weaknesses.

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You might want to look up the word hyperbole.

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Allowing players to spam their attacks without consequence teaching them nothing of the game's mechanics or how to properly slot/enhance their character with enhancements, inventions or power/epic pools.


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I'm not sure negative reinforcement is the way you want to treat your paying customers (obviously you personally not caring so much about the financial aspects of what we're talking about).

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Skill is involved though. It takes skill to figure out the most efficient use of your endurance rather then just button smashing in hopes of defeating your enemies. It does take skill to pick which enhancements will allow to you focus your attacks, controls, etc etc most efficiently. And it does take skill to LEARN how to use the mechanics of this game to your benefit.


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Again, I don't equate skill to dealing with clunky game mechanics.

It doesn't take any particular skill to learn what powers do, or how to enhance them or how to ration your behaviors as a form of dealing with said in-game mechanics. It takes practice. Accordingly, the paradigm of ramping up difficulty is proven to work in MMOs (games in general). Doing it in reverse as CoH does isn't sensical and is complained about on a regular basis (I've already linked some threads as "proof").

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What you want is a no-thinking, no-skill, button smashing experience. That's a terrible design IMO.


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That would be a horrible design ... unfortunately that is the current design of CoH. It's obviously not what I want.

By the way, your last statement was filled with hyperbole.

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The fact that it's happening to the newest players to the game, is giving a lousy first impression. Any person in marketing can tell you that that translates into loss of revenue in a commercial market.

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Someone is going to complain about something in this game and it's impossible to retain every new client since most will have differing opinions.


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I totally agree ... usually you will determine that there is an issue when many of the complaints center around the same issue (as is the case here).

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And to be perfectly honest, I see veteran players complain far more about the low level endurance than I see new players. Most new players are just happy to be making a super hero or super villain and having fun just being here.


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If you're talking about these boards, I'd point out that you've already admitted to being the vocal minority. Certainly most of your experience (and mine) with regards to these boards are going to be with CoH vets versus true newbies. The source of the complaint shouldn't be an issue here ... in fact you kind of reinforce my point since veteran players who have long since learned to mitigate (or blow past) the endurance issue *still* complain prolifically about it.


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Lastly, I don't really think these new players need you to speak up for them. It's nice and might be considered noble but I think you want this change and that's your main motive.

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You are correct ... I speak for no one but myself. I enjoy the game but not certain parts of it and wish to change those parts ... especially if there is a large consensus of agreement on the issue (which there seems to be here if not the actual fix).

This is the samething we did with Super Strength a few years ago and now all SS Tankers (and Brutes) enjoy a pretty hefty Knockout Blow, and knockdown versus knockback in most of its powers.

I think you'd agree that that was a pretty good change?

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I don't check out other players builds. I'm not one of those people who concern themselves with how other players build their characters. I offer support or assistance when asked but I judge no one based on their lack or addition of powers.

Stamina is a required pool for Min/Maxers...that's what you mean to say I'm guessing.

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Actually it's popularly (by the overwhelming vast majority of players) considered a "must have" pool to *enjoy* the game and has been since the game released.

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IMHO, I think this is a part in the overall design and can't be limited to tankers. Adjusting endurance issues for tanks will do nothing for other AT's or tanks past lvl 20. But all of this is subjective to power selection, slotting and style of play. To expect to have everything handed to you (I was against the accuracy buff too) from the beginning of the game is a bit unfair. If you, I or anyone coming into the game doesn't realize that the blue bar and how much of it's left determines whether or not how I attack, then they have more to learn about mmo's or where failing in other mmo's to begin with.

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My suggestion pertains to all ATs ... it just happens that Tankers receive the worst brunt of it (and I tend to only post on the Tanker forums ).

Again the attitude of who is entitled to what is meaningless here. This is a video game whose only function to the consumer is to provide entertainment and whose only function to the parent company is to provide revenue.

Within that context, CoH could be doing much better (imo) financially with a fairly small change and easily accomplished change to the current system.

Would it make the early levels easier? Absolutely ... but the caveat here is that it would also make them much more enjoyable (especially to new players), which is the key for retaining new players.

P.S. - I happen to know you haven't spent more then half an hour on a toon that was less then L20 in the past least three months because I've power levelled most of em

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In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money.

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I would think you have some type of evidence to support this right?



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Proof? No ... as I said in my post, I can only surmise that people leave the game due to frustration of one type or another, and the most popular form of frustration with CoH is endurance.

From just the first page of this forum, all these posts either center around or mention endurance issues, with the majority being about the low level game (not including this thread):

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13787170

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13781409

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13762449

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13784867

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD

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I'm one of those players that don't wish for lowbies to have it much easier. I think making endurance tough in the low levels helps teach players how to effectively slot their characters and learn the mechanics of the game.

The devs already incorporated better accuracy for lowbies, which ties directly into endurance efficiency. I really don't think this game needs to be made an easier for the low levels when players spend the least amount of time in that range.

Whether your suggestion to "fix" these issues is well thought out or not doesn't matter to me since I don't agree with the premise of low level endurance efficiency needing improvement in any way.

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Fortunately you're in the minority here.

Historically speaking, MMOs tend to baby the first 20% of their levelling curve (virtually every MMO I've played since EQ in 99 has faster recovery forms for those levels). CoH is the paradox to this, where the first half of the game is the hardest, with the second half becoming exponentially easy.

Also I don't equate "skill" or "babying" people with having them fight against out of context game mechanics. Making a person take 10 minutes to get through an encounter that should take 1 minute because they have to watch while their end bar tick up enough to launch another attack isn't lack of skill ... it's just bad design.

The fact that it's happening to the newest players to the game, is giving a lousy first impression. Any person in marketing can tell you that that translates into loss of revenue in a commercial market.

Might want to post this on the PvP forum and see what they think.

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The comment was tongue-in-cheek.

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Apparently you were trying to save Endurance by having your Humor toggle turned off.

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And yes, every power is endurance efficient if you wait an hour between attacks (what a totally silly thing to say).

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You have no idea what endurance efficient means, do you?

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Not in the context you seem to be using it in.

Endurance efficiency, practically speaking, means how much endurance you use per chain of attacks.

Not sure why you would calculate it for a single attack in a vacuum if that's what you're (or Starsman are) doing.

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Damage/endurance, in any instance. An attack, an attack chain, an entire set.

If you kill a target faster than I do using the same amount of endurance, you're not less efficient, but that's how you're describing it.

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Ah ok true. I was speaking on a more practical level with the way the game is played on average but you're correct, I'm not talking about endurance efficiency per point of damage, but endurance efficiency over time (or rather, end usage over time).

Sarrate: thanks for clarifying.