Krank

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Agree to disagree?

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Absolutely.

Like I've said multiple times, I'm not here to ruin anyone's experience. However, I do hope people won't try to destroy mine as well. [censored]-for-tat, as it were. Some people like genuine silver-age superheroes, some people actually like Superman and Captain America and all that jazz. I don't. I'm more of a Morrison/Millar/Moore kind of comicbook lover. I do believe there should be room for all of us.

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The game isn't here for realism, it's here for escapism and fun.

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Says who?

And what if "fun", for me, necessarily involves a certain amount of realism? What if I require "realism" in order to successfully interact with the fictions world? What if my suspension of disbelief requires some dirtiness, some connection to the ordinary world?

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IMO, bringing real world events into the game just makes the whole thing depressing and isn't fair on other players. There's enough conflict in the game world without bringing in real world conflict.

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I'm not forcing anyone. Like I said, if all you want is a pink, bunny-hopping simplistic world of black-and-white Silver Age superheroes, just regard A-bomination as a madman. I'm not trying to destroy your experience of the game. I'm just trying to find a way for me to sustain my interest. Because honestly, without a bit of realism, without that vital connection to the real world, this game would be as boring as WoW or Guild Wars. It wouldn't sustain my interest for more than a week.

And no, there isn't enough conflict in the world. Not if you mean conflict as in "there's a point in picking sides". All in-game conflicts are the same: Black and Eeeeeevil versus Shiny Good. Not much room for actual conflict of interests. Just the same mind-numbingly dull [censored] I see every day, the kind of world people apparently want to live in. Well, I don't. The world is a complex place, and that's a great thing.

I am not making the "whole thing" depressing. Just my little personal space in it. I won't try to make you depressed, and you won't try to make me shiny-go-happy, deal?

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You can use a mallet if you like, my chars will step over your corpse and use something with a bit more hitting power...

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Like a mullet?

=)

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Sorry, but you're kinda contradicting yourself.

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Am not!

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You say he was Bi anyway, but then you say only reason you're considering making him Bi is because of this thread?

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no. The only reason why I even thought about his sexuality was this thread. I had not previously thought about his sexuality, at all.

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Can you not see that this means you're only considering it because this thread has made the idea more popular?

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What? No! I don't consider "making" him bi/[censored].

Let's make it simple:

* What I am considering: "Activating" Disco Fever, as in "bringing him into play", as in "logging in to CoH and selecting Disco Fever in stead of A-bom when selecting character".

* What I was reminded of in this thread: That I hadn't previously thought about Disco Fever's sexuality, but now that I do think about it, he seems like a very bisexual character in my mind (just like myself, by the way).

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Personally, I find it slightly poor taste to bring real world conflicts where people are still dying into a fantasy world created for entertainment.

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Personally, I find it slightly poor taste to idealize patriotism and black-and-white worldviews.

Depends on what you see as "entertainment", I guess. To me, any cultural phenomenon devoid of reference to the "real world" is devoid of meaning. It's like paintings, sculpture or movies: They are at their best when they try to do more than just bring bread and circuses to the masses.

Culture, to me, isn't about mind-numbing entertainment or taking vacations from reality. Culture is a way to examine the real world, to place it in different contexts and thus understanding it better.

And besides, the differences aren't THAT radical; We still have WWII, the Cold War, the laughingstock called "The War on Drugs", we still have CIA, we (presumably) still had a lot of hippies during the 70's, a lit of yippies during the 80's, there are mobile phones and international corporations, the US is still not-really-a-democracy, they place is still rampant with nationalism and patriotism and different kinds of fascism. Without any such handles, any form of meaningful in-character conversation becomes impossible.

What you want isn't a completely different history. What you want is just an idealized version of history, where superheroes made It All Better and where supervillains are the only real problem. Sorry, but I won't agree to that particular worldview. The Silver Age of comics was a [censored] period, flat and dull as it was.



Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy the game any way you please. That's your right. I'm not forcing any of this down your throat. You are completely free to decide that A-bom is just a delusional madman, and that "Guantanamo" etc are just figments of his sick imagination. he says he spends time abroad fighting the US government's actions in other countries? Well, as the government aren't having any such agendas, A-bom must be mad, mustn't he?



On the other hand, I would be completely happy if people would bring up a few examples of questionable behaviour by the COH government, dirty little secrets of the CIA, etc. I'm just using real-world events because they are easy to grasp and use. Everyone knows what I mean when I say "Guantanamo Bay" - but if I say "Misharo Island" (just made it up) no-one's going to get the point.

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Why? ... or more accurately, why are you considering it now?

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Because the issue of sexuality popped up in a thread on this forum?

And when it comes to activating Disco Fever at all... That's been in my head for the last week or so, unrelated to this thread. Sorry if it seemed like I was contemplating his activation just because of this thread.

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Is it reasonable to assume that a war that wrecked many countries (well, cities would be more accurate, I guess) on the globe would leave armies rather depleted?
That those armies might be pre-occupied with helping to rebuild and maintain rather then expand?

Your choice, I guess.

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Yes, it is.

Is it reasonable to assume that a country where armies etc are seriously depleted and is low on resources, but has a good natural resource in the way of idealistic superheroes to denfend the "homeland" and a tradition of secret oragnizations to try and take over as much of other countries' natural resources as possible using stealth rather than force?

I'd say yes.

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I must be doing my job wrong then, i always assumed that i was there as a tool to facilitate THEIR learning. if anything, they have power over me.
The fact that you see something that would be to their advantage ("sit down and shut up, so you can actualy learn") as "power over them" is part of the core problem.

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I will be the one selecting course materials. I will be the one they see as the "adult" in the classroom. I will have the power to mold them. Every teacher mold their students, every teacher brainwashes (strong word, but nevertheless) his or her students.

We influence their opinions. We have power over them. Education is never objective.

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A little metaphore for you:
The human race as a whole is a child, its still learning, growing, trying to make itself better. and im sure you'll agree with this.
Now... if you ask a child what it would like for dinner, MOST children would say "candy".
But if a child has "candy" for dinner, it isnt going to grow up big and strong. You give the child what it needs to sustain itself.

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Agreed. That's why I (as opposed to A-bom) believe that what we need and what we can do is continually try to move things in the proper direction. "Educate the world", so to speak. Right now, humanity is a child - and a child needs education in order to function as a human being in the future. The question is - what will be in that education? As I said, education is not objective.

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theres no point talking about "in a perfect future", we live in the present. and presently, humanity sucks.

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So because we don't have cake now, means we can't try to get the ingredients and the recipe to a cake in the future?

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i doubt America would be as nearly as expansionist as it is now

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You doubt, yes - but is there anything on it in the canon? No.

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i not saying that, i'm saying in a world were we know we are not alone (the Keldian) and were even the lowest people could produce the next "most powerful person in the planet" not because they gain political power, but because they are born with that power in them, surely a lot more of those barriers are dropping, and while we fight the people that would sustain them, we have no choice but to ignore them for the good of the world.

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I, on the other side, seriously doubt the barriers are crumbling. I see them getting stronger.

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Individuals may be anything they like, but a group of people is usually equal to the least of it's members.. and half IQ at that.

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I disagree.

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A character in a book once said "I have no faith in human kind, I have faith in individuals".
Things like mass-hysteria, peer pressure and hooligans are great examples of this.


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Things like the majority of the US residents not voting for Bush is an example of the opposite.


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On equality... there is no equality, it is an illusion. You (who ever reads this) and I (the writer of this post) are not equal.
I may be smarter then you, you may be smarter then me, I may be stronger, you may be bigger, I may be male, you might be a woman. The differences mount up and we are no longer 'the same' and so no longer 'equal'.


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I disagree.
We do not need to be "the same" to be equal.

On this forum, for instance, we are all equal. I do not hold any particular power over you, and you hold no particular power over me. I don't have to do or say anything you say, and vice versa.

"Smart" and "strong" aren't always good. Gender is a social construction we need to do away with pronto.


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Nice example:
I might be a carpenter, and you a farmer.
You need to have something made or fixed, so I hold power over you.
I need to be fed, so you hold power over me.
We are not equals. We will never BE equals so long as I am not you, and you are not me.

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You seriously misunderstand power - power isn't power unless it's used. I can just as well get some other carpenter (I don't need YOU in particular), and you can just as well get your food somewhere else (You don't need ME in particular). The ultimate freedom is to say "no" and take the consequences.

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I now sense in influx of posts going
"hey, I'll make a **** character"

and I wonder... why?

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The thing is... Sexuality is just one dimension of a character. There are many others. Disco Fever was created to be the ultimate paragon of Disco a few months back. I just hadn't considered his sexuality before - and his sexuality will still not be A Big Deal for him. Bisexuality just seemed like a suitable choice.

My main char, A-bomination, is completely sexless - he's around 12% organic, and none of it's genitalia. Horribly transformed grey flesh stuck inside a tech-suit doesn't really lend itself toward sexuality, y'know?

So I guess I don't see myself as a bandwagon-jumper. I never imagined Disco Fever as anything other than bisexual.

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why attack someone who might vaguely disagree with you, when you are fighting something that is literally trying to exterminate you?

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Let's just say many religions extremists and nationalists believe the US of A are trying to exterminate them - or at least everything they stand for.

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In the world of CoH, there are lots of people with agenda's, but they are operating on a much higher level than we would be used to, after all when do we have to account for a man that can survive a nuclear blast interfering?

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...while I see it more like an added layer of cake. Sure, there are superheroes and supervillains - but while there are a lot of them, they aren't everywhere, thay can't deal with EVERY issue. Thus, there must be plenty of more mundane issues out there.


I realize many people like CoH as a simplistic world where SUper Heroes and Super Villains fight eachother or, occationally, Aliens. I simply want to have an added layer of complexity; as such a simplistic world makes me want to hurl. There are plenty of injustice in the world, and superheroes insist on trying to fix the symptoms (supervillains) rather than fix the actual disease (injusticves in society). Hierarchal systems create crime - and a super-hierarchal caste-system where some people Simply Are Better than others (superpeople - the new elite) creates super-crime. Doesn't mean there aren't greys. Or purples. Or reds. Black and white may be satisfying as a simplistic ideology, but Things Just Don't Work That Way.



...alternately, one can just view A-bom as a single madman, and everything he says or thinks as misconception and delusion. SO even if you hold to those black-and-white, simplistic silver-age-comicbook values, there's still room for A-bom.

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It's annoying when my patriotic superheroine get's blamed for supporting the U.S. occupation of Iraq, keeping talibans in Guantanamo and other real world events when all she's doing is defending her homeland against Rikti invaders. This game is about heroes and villains. My two cents.

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As long as it's OK to criticize her for holding patriotic/nationalistic beliefs... =)

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Because Back Alley Brawler say so!
Would you call him a lier?

His pal Blue Steel and the rest of the Regulators can vouch for it! They were there as well.

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((lol...))

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I dont know why, but i actualy took time to read one of the blog entries on the site (once i got past the constant swearing and the qoute by renowned satanist and whackjob, alister crowly, in the corner)
It quite literaly made me shudder.
I honestly hope there isnt too many of your own OOC beliefs mixed in with all that, because it is honestly deeply disturbing.


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((Well... I really am an anarchist, but let's just say I'm to A-bom what Punisher is to a regular person. I'm a total pacifist, for one thing. Wouldn't hurt a fly. I don't believe in revolution. But I do believe we need to slowly move toward a society where governments aren't needed. I'm an occultist, but I don't subscribe to everything Crowley said (though he did have a lot of interresting things to say - and I don't have any grudge against satanists, really. Some of my best mates are satanists). More of a Peter J. Carroll kind of guy. And I curse less.))


((BTW, if A-bom makes people shudder... Then I'm doing a good job. He's supposed to be one of those heroes most wouldn't even call heroes))

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I dislike american politics as much as the next person. I was brought up a Socialist, spent most of my life around hippies, and left wing Che' Gauvara wannabes. And in general, i've come to realise that the more someone shouts "revelution" the less he knows how society works (although i suppose thats the point of anarchism, being the "stripping down" of society).

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((Society, as we know it, is essentially corrupt to the core. I simply hold the more-than-slightly idealistic view that it could be different. I guess I'm simply a hippie, dropped out of a time-warp - a few decades too late.))

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Yes, America is corrupt, so are all governments

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((Agreed. That's how nationalism works.))

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its how humanity works. We're greedy. Give someone a little taste of power and the cling to it with their life.

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((Not all of us. Which kind of suggests that things could be different. Me, for instance, I almost completely lack a power-drive. I don't want to have power over anyone. I'm going to be a teacher, and I agomize about the power I'll have over the students...))

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But, you remove the government, the millitary, and the police force, and it leaves the weak and the powerless, that you try to champion, open to be abused even further.

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((If you do it now, sure. But things can change. Things now are pretty different from, say a hundred years ago. We are constantly moving towards a society with more sharing of information, more awareness, more equalness. As weird as that mught sound, I believe things are better now than they've ever been))

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No protection from crime (oh, no wait, forget that, with no administration, there is no crime. theres no law to define it)

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((Crime is an effect of social differences and upbringing. If we want a world with less crime, we need to create a different world. It'll take time, I give ya that - what we can do today is try to influence the people around us, try to make people more aware of their own values and the constructedness of opinions, ideas and values))

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And our borders (which no longer exist)

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((Borders, like countries, are fiction anyway))

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Yes, government is corrupt, but its the lesser evil than humanity as a whole.

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For now, perhaps.

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The government AS IT IS needs to be taken down and remolded, not the concept of government as a whole.

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((I disagree. Government implies unequality, and as long as there's unqequality there'll be injustice. Communication is only possible between equals. One cannot build any kind of just society on a basis of having some in power and some not. Democracy, while a fine idea, has yet to be realized anywhere. Switzerland comes closest, with their direct democracy, but even they are far from real democracy.))

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anyway, end of rant, this isnt the place to discuss politics. hopefully i havent offended too much.

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((Quite the opposite, this thread is a thread about a highly politically offensive character and his superteam of (hopefully) just as offensive future teammates. And I'm pretty hard to offend - hippie, remember? The only thing I can't stand is people talking down to me. As long as you deal with me as an equal who happens to have different opinions than you, we'll be just fine... =))

- "I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

//A-bom, in one of his homocidal moods

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(If you doubt this just ask your friends if they have playfully or passionately kissed another person of the same gender. You will find by far more women admitting to this than men... and the few men will likely tell you that they were drunk when they did it.)

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Well, you've obviously not met my friends... =)
We're more or less statistically correct (one or two openly [censored], several bi's, and a majority of heteros), but a little less "phobic"...

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Male players are a little bit different.[7quote]

Not all of them... =)

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(Who would have guessed that men and women are different? )

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As long as you don't go around claiming it's because of biology, honey =)

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Most men are heterosexual and many are (at least) a little bit homophobic.

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Aw, that's just because they're scared of their homosexual side... Most people are at least a little bit bi (as evidenced by the number of really macho men who kiss guys when they're really drunk)... =)

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a majority of heterosexual men
a sizeable chunk of lesbian/bi women
a roughly equally sized percentage of heterosexual women (perhaps less if there are many teens on the server)
very few homosexual men
You see, it's very normal that there are a lot more lesbian heroes than male homosexual toons.

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What? No bi men? At all? =)

(Hm, I might activate my old completely unleveled character, Disco Fever - if anyone would stick it to either gender, it'd be him. And he's got the funky disco powers to back it up!)

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the drugs stuff, "Why hasn't Statesman exposed the CIA drug rings in Central and South America?" well, because they no longer exist, in this world Back ally brawler and the regulators took the fight to the drug barons in South America. and took them down, the drugs have changed and moved on, "superdyne" is the biggest problem now, they aren't sure how or were it's produced, but i'm sure you've encountered the trolls, they are the result of over use of the drug.

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Well, that's as far as you know... The drug barons aren't the only drug operations in south america, y'know... And I find it kind of hard to believe that everyone has switched to Superdyne. After all, different people want different things - some want uppers, some want downers, some want angeldust, some want psychedelics. And I strongly suspect that Superdyne can't be all of the above - that'd be a serious stretch of the imagination on my part...

And also I kind of suspect that it takes more than fighting a couple of drug barons to take down the whole shebang. I mean, superheroes are one thing but... A War on Drugs actually working? Now that's fiction...


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as for guantanamo bay, o doubt it exists in this world as if your a super powered menaces you end up buried and cryogenicly frozen under boomtown, like richisman, by Statesman.

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...so you're trying to say that there are no "mundanes" that are [censored] off by the US of A's actions, culture, or all of the above? No moslem dissenters, no revolutionaries, no enemies of the state that aren't superpowered? All criminals, terrorists etc are superpowered? No small, frustrated nations who don't have superheroes, who're angry at America for stepping in and meddling in what they see as their private affairs? Again, I find that kind of hard to believe.

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this world is both more extreme, and better off.

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Depends on your point of view, doesn't it? More patriotic, nationalistic [censored] flying around, for one thing.

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the government has to many obvious threats to bother making any up

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How do you know those "obvious threats" aren't created by the government? A scared people is an obedient people, and enemies are a great way to make people ignore the real issues...

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and have to reassure people as much a possible that things are getting better as if they were any worse people would be dead.i think this world had, with the first rikti invasion, what Adrian Vedit figured out in Watchman, that they need something to unite against, and they didn't even need to fake it.

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On the other hand, the Rikti want away, didn't they? (for the most part, and not including issue 10). Threat gone, now let's see how we can use this to our advantage...



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So while political discussion is good and interesting, i don't think we can apply to much of what happens here to the CoH world, who need the great Satan of America when you have daemon'a literally appearing right out of the air?

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Well, why can't you have both?



To tell the truth, I find a world without political dissent both dull, uninspiring and unbelievable. I can swallow people getting superpowered (and subsequently deciding to play dress-up and show off their personal fetishes), but I won't be able to swallow World Peace, a Nice Government of America (or any other country), Good Patriotism/Nationalism or a Good World Except for Supervillains. It's just a bit too... incredible for my tastes. Leaves a sour taste in my mouth.


All in all, I thank you for your input - but most of it seems based not in canon, but in your perception of it. The canon doesn't say there aren't non-superpowered terrorists blowing things up. It doesn't say there is no Guantanamo Bay. It doesn't say there are no secret CIA-controled drug-rings. Most of it is presented through in-game resources (such as plaques etc), and the thing about in-game resources is that they can be doubted. Everyone has an agenda.

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Well, after reading this I'm really tempted to make my next Hero a member of this overly taboo'd group.

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A homosexual anarchist, then? =)

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they can't conscript them if that,s what you mean, they would have to be recruited like anyone else.

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As far as we know... =)

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you need to read the Right to Might act history plaques and the back story of the Malta to get a better handle on the covert ops world of CoH.


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Well, the REAL black-black ops wouldn't have their history on any plaque, now would they? =)


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Also, reading your site, it's good stuff, but how much of the back info have you read? while it may be annoying and spolierish, i would recommend looking up the blurb on all the history plaques for in game.

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I've read most of it, but feel free to point out any "errors" I might've let slip...

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I'm just trying now to invent a Hero with whom I can join the LF and actually want and be able to play.

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Nice!

Feeling kind of lonely right now =)

Working on the base - we recently (like today) got a working teleporter (yay for me) but not much else... =)

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I'm really liking your website by the way, A-bom, it makes me weep when I see my own. terraliberationfront.webeden.co.uk (Not finished, too much to do... as usual.... >_&gt

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Actually, I kind of like yours as well...

LF's site will get more stuff soon as well... Such as a "members" section... redesigned the page header today, I kind of like the darker tone =)

I'll add a link from LF to TLF's site, if it's OK...

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Krank. Almost everyone in Paragon and the Isles would have been around during the Rikti war. And a very large number of them probly fought in it, so remember that before saying: "Thats what they want you to believe!"

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((I'm not tryint to claim the Rikti didn't exist. I'm just suggesting they were created by the government, using secret technology, and then unleashed upon the earth in an effort to take people's minds off internal US politics... or something. Sure, they came - sure they slaugfhtered - but *why* they did so and where they *really* come from is anyone's guess - and A-bom has at least a dozen "guesses"...

And personally, I kind of hate "classic" supervillains and heroes. A-bom too. They're flat, two-dimensional, boring. I guess you could say I'm more of a Morrison/Moore/Millar fan... ))

A-bomination isn't really rquipped for this kind of combat - being a creation of a supersoldier project before the original Rikti invasion, his systems and equipment are more focused on more... mundane opponents.

However, he'll fight the Rikti - if nothing else because they pose a threat to the average joe. He'll probably syspect everyone and their aunt of being involved in some conspiracy dedicated to using the "Rikti" (which he believes are created by man, much like conspiracy-nuts today believe the moonlanding was faked) as a way to bolster capitalism and the military-industrial complex...

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The other major problem was the fact the Ritiki war screwed a whole lot of stuff up and technically world is still in the rebuilding phase. Perhaps the president is still using his 'emergency powers' to stay in office, we don't know, the devs don't give us a whole lot of non-super power related background as you said, it's all very much about the heroics/villainy.

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That might be the official story... What they WANT you to believe =)

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Unfortunately for CoH the world is very much black and white when taken at the value the Devs give it


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Well, "face value" can still just be the "official story"... The way I see it, there are lots of holes to exploit.

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, 'you're a hero, you do good things, people love you'. This problem is shared with CoV where everything is very much the dark side of things and it doesn't give a lot of room for misunderstood heroes who fell on the wrong side of the law, it's very much a 'you're bad, you do bad things, people fear you' the devs really don't like the option for ambiguity in either side of the game to occur naturally, it is we, the RPer, that force this ambiguity into the game.

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Yup. And I got no probs whatsoever with doing so =)

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It's odd you simply just don't get punisher style heroes in CoH if you take it at face value, you don't kill, you arrest/defeat (i mean defeat...come on, i'm a villain for heavens sake...of course i've mercilessly butchered the underlings. I defeat Heroes, I kill minions...atleast that's how i see it).

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Uhm... Well. The police might call it "defeat" or "capture", but... Well, let's just say I doubt it. When a villain is brought in with five feet long bone spikes sticking out through their torsos, I call that "dead, or almost dead". They might get some info from them before they pass away, but hey...

Spines, as a power, doesn't really lend itself well to the whole "capture" thing. Which is the way I like it... No matter how you look at it, half a dozen sokes through the abdomen is generally enough to incapacitate someone pretty much permanently...

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It would help a lot more if they introduced the 'going rogue/reformed' option where you could switch sides but as i've said the devs don't like ambiguity and also it was too hard to balance...(i.e. they cba).

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Well, I've no problem with the current set-up. I just see it as an "official image", the one presented by the government etc. Below the surface of the black-and-white are, as always, not only shades of grey - but lilac, rad, blue and green as well...

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All the major intelligence and government agencies are there. CIA, FBI etc. and i'd assume they're still doing the covert operations and the like, just using superheroes for their 'black ops' instead of soldiers.

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Nice! Whole bunch of plot ideas popping into my head...

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While there isn't a Guantanamo Bay but the is the Ziggursky Prison which is a prison for those who have super-powers, i've seen the inside of it, it's dark, dank and reminded me of the prison colony planet from Alien 3. Though admittedly at the time i was escaping from said prison IC wise anyway i imagine the rest of it is a lot more secure than that 1 section you see in the villain side tutorial. The place still looks pretty inhumane for a prison though even if it is holding the world biggest 'potential evils'.

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And are there really only "supervillains" there? I've heard of at least forty people who hadn't done a thing, a few of them don't even have superpowers...

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However Paragon side i'm not sure who is president of the USA, though i'm sure someone can drag it up and link it for us. Every time the president is mentioned ingame it's just as that 'The President' i believe.

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Well, I guess "The President" it is. Could I still refer to him as "commander-in-thief" and similar? I mean, there were a lot of question marks regarding his campaign, but they've hushed most of it up...


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so you'd find they're probably using WORSE tactics than just sweatshops, there's something for your group to aim at.

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Worse than sweatshops... Heh, I can just feel the plots falling into place =)



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The thing is there is also one major enemy group who would be the target of anarchist heroes...Crey, they are the corporation that does inhuman genetic experiments, blows up competitors, gives government backhanders, secretly funds gangs so the need for the Crey Protectors in certain areas comes in and thus they can up their fee.

They're quite evil...

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Agreed. They're next on my hit list, once the Council has been stomped out good...