Kellen_Wolf

we already do: annihilator. no need for for black guard to be a requirement too...be sides black guard is only achievable through getting 6 other badges.

/signed.

pretty much any argument that I would make has been made. someone posted in another thread that the devs don't care for afk farming..well having this requirement pretty much guarantees and increase in afk farming.

I for one have never done it and didn't care about the dmg/debt badges and always played/built my scrappers/stalkers to take as little dmg as possible. Having this requirement makes it very tempting to become a farmer.

Hell no don't bring back the inf. requirement. Statesmen has stated multiple times that he wants the game enjoyable, and things achievable for the casual gamer as well as the hard core gamer.

I knew this day would come. When people complained about how 'easy' this or that badge was..and it should be harder..or as I call it 'power-badging' when higher lvl toons help lower lvl ones get high lvl hunt badges. Who gives a rats [censored]? Worry about somthing important, and let people enjoy their game. If somone gets a badge before you, it does not impact your game play. 'oh what about the accolades that give +end and HP in PvP, they have an unfair advantage!' What a joke..the bonus is so small it makes no difference.

Quit trying to be elitist jerks and let people have their fun. Its a badge nothing more.

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Okay, I've read through 80% (literally) of this thread. The discussion has ranged from overpowered Stalkers (or not) to Grand Unified Theory of Everything (an impossibility in my mind, but I'm no scientist). The one post that made me smile ended with a call for a nice global thermonuclear war. An apt solution I sometimes think, but rather irrelevant here and now. As an aside, if Anne Coulter becomes president in 2008 I will gladly surrender my dark blue passport.

Chess
Checkers
Go
Shogi
Othello

Five games. All rely on two opposing, perfectly balanced powersets and a grid to move the pieces over. All are pure PvP games of skill, with no luck or randomization involved. All have simple rulesets and can be played anytime, anywhere. Also, if you lack the proper pieces, they can be easily substituted. All five games are thousands of years old.

A beginner can learn any of those five games in half an hour or less. A master will spend a lifetime studying them and still have things to learn.

In my never humble opinion the PvP aspect of MMORPGs is completely unworkable, and will remain so for a long time to come. It is overly complex, always depends on some element of randomization, easily exploited, and caters to bullying rather than fair play. In my experience PvP in MMORPGs is boring because it always come down to one of two things:

who has the better built toon
who gets lucky with the seed algorithm

and in the very worst cases, a combination of the two. I find discussions of "skill" amusing when they are harmless, and completely laughable when they are serious. "Skill" in a PvP-enabled MMORPG is a minor element, when it has any impact at all. It's never about skill. It's always about the numbers. I'm sorry, but any other approach is simply delusional. (Using TP Foe to drop an opponent onto Caltrops and a trio of mines, for example. How is that "skill"? If anything, it's an exploit because it puts complete power in the hands of /Dev or /Traps player.)

CoV has not broken the mold. If anything, it has reinforced it. Discussions like this one will never end until someone, somewhere has the guts, genius, and sheer luck, to create a PvP-enabled MMORPG that captures the same simplicity/complexity dichotomy as any of the classic games I've listed above.

Nerfing Stalkers is not the answer. Balancing Perception/Stealth is not the answer, either. Greater simplification, not greater complexity, is the only route that can hope to bring success.

The one poster who proposed that any PvE build should also be PvP viable has the right idea. Only when the worst PvE build imaginable can walk into a PvP area and compete well enough that the player who built it will come away with a greater appreciation for the game itself will this or any other game come close to matching the elegance of the Classics.

If you're looking for a realistically balanced PvP model, Halo is not the answer. Look to the Classic board games and find some way to incorporate that same level of consistency, predictability, simplicity in content, and complexity in mastery. Cryptic needs to be looking for a way to make each player's PvP experience as easy to learn as Othello, as intellectually demanding as Go, and just as simple to learn as two sets of black and white stones on a fixed grid.

Each indivdual player, by the way, not each team! Attempting to force team-based or faction-based PvP onto the player is the first step down the wrong road. Factions and teams can be both important and relevant, no reason for them not to be, but it is the individual player that pays a monthly subscription fee and must come away from the game feeling content.

According to Nick Yee's Daedalus Project, 75% of the overall MMORPG playerbase currently does not enjoy PvP and 5% or less actively participate in PvP. Those are the numbers you need to change if you want the PvP portion of CoV/CoH to ever be anything more than a freaky sideshow.

In terms of suggestions... Well, for starters don't let Hide stack with Stealth, but even that is only a short-term solution. The only long-term solution is to treat the PvP game as completely separate from the PvE one. It needs a completely different ruleset and a completely different set of goals. Until we reach the point where a computer AI can match the creativity of a human mind, mixing the two will never work to anyone's satisfaction.

Greater simplicity, not greater complexity. Any other approach will only lead to an endless chain of "balancing" and huge numbers of frustrated players.

[/ QUOTE ]Excellent post, very well written. And every thing you say is true, in my opinion.

the only way that the complaining and, "nerf this and that cause it's overpowered", talk is going to stop, is when everyone enters the PvP zone and they have the exact same powers, exact same HP.

People have used games like 'Halo' as an example..well people still complain about how this weapon or that is overpowered and needs to be balanced..same is said for every single MMO I've ever played or read about.

It will not end, and I've said it before and will say it again; once the nerf squad is done w/stalkers it will be on to the next AT/Power/Set. This community has been doing it for a year and a half..and that was just over who could lvl faster.

well, that's somthing completely different. You'll get new guys getting wasted when lvl 50s bring their char into BB. Those fight are hardly fair at all.

One of the biggest complaints I see, regardless of the AT, is how the battles are fought, it's very rare that battles are fought 1 on 1 or group on group. 1 or 2 people will get relativly isolated and pounced on by 3 or more enemies. The other complaint is how quickly travel powers remove opponents from the fight, somone gets hit once or twice and they are gone. While this is good for the one running, it sucks for the other one trying to fight. I suppose this is why there is so much ganging up..do enough damage as quick as you can before they SJ/Fly/SS/TP away. It can really be maddening to a scrapper that has TP or SS, when your oponent flys or SJs away and you can't close to melee range.

My flying scrapper is much more fun and successful than my TPing one for this reason.

I see noone has stepped forward to show me how there stalkers are owning everything and trashing everyones fun.

I really want to see those of you that say stalkers need to be nerfed play one. Not being a jerk, I might learn somthing.
and it is possible that I will see the light and that stalkers need to be nerfed. As it stands now, the only thing I will get on board with is the toggle dropping aspect of the Eng. stalker, but that's only one stalker primary, they all don't have stun and toggle drops. Of course you'd probably need to do the same to eng. blasters too..to be fair.

Maybe on Protector is the only place that stalkers don't rule Pvp. but here they die just as easy as everyone else..more so maybe because everyone and their sister has IR goggles or somthing else that sees through hide, so they don't get to even use AS that much.

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when is the last time you fought a Fire/Eng.

[/ QUOTE ] Kellen, what is your disconnect here? I can see every single solo Energy blaster that ever lived. Every single one. They have to get into melee Range and that is where a number of Scrapper sets can nail them. To get into melee range, they are open to ranged attacks. They have no +DEF in any of their sets. Ever see what Siphon Speed does to a blapper?

As long as you insist on comparing apples to oranges, your arguments are unavailing.

[/ QUOTE ]I this thread is about 1 shot kills, it's not about defense. As far as getting into melee range, they can survive that, and get off their stunning toggle dropping attack, and on the way in they are hitting with the ranged. If the melee misses they are out shooting as they go.

I know this because I've done it time and time again, against stalkers and other villains. It's a 2 shot kill, that when they land you don't have time to hit an insp.

The point of this whole deal is people saying stalkers are no fun to have around, because of their AS, they are too powerfull, or that you have to burn power slots to be able to counter them, or be on teams with every power in the book. That just plain is not true.

There are counters to every power, and every AT in this game, and not very complicated ones either.

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No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less, I can't compare Regen, because I haven't made either regen stalkers or scrappers.


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I'd welcome any links to testing that provides numbers to back this up.

[/ QUOTE ]There are several threads in the Stalkers forum that give the exact numbers, including the values of hide suppressed and unsuppressed.

yeah, because inbetween those 2 attacks there is so much time to even pop and inspiration. It is circular because the arguements keep comming back to the same thing on each side. Since Miuex apparently is not going to help me out and educate me on how he can ruin everyones fun w/his stalker, I ask anyone out there that plays a stalker and thinks they are over powered to send me a PM tell me what server you are on, and if you aren't on Protector, I'll create one on your server.

When CoV came out, I'm sure Stalkers seemed unbeatable that their AS was certain death. Now that people have learned, the ones that get caught w/it are in the minority.

and again I ask you to show me how you operate your stalker in PvP, and no ninjistu does not have the same defense values as SR.

I said pages ago, that this is a circular arguement, and neither of us are going to bring the other to their view point w/words alone. I know what I see and experience to be true. I see the many of the players being beaten by stalkers AS are new or lazy, or not paying attention. I see and experience the beating of stalkers by builds that arent' created expressly for PvP.

As for your comment about having to constantly move around to avoid hits not being fun? Well, stalkers aren't the only ones that can kill you quickly if they get to land a melee blow, when is the last time you fought a Fire/Eng. blaster? Consitantly 2 shot kills that if done right don't allow time for much reaction..should they be nerfed next?

Not once have I ever said stalkers are squishy or underpowered. I said they are less in def. and less in HP, I will go with you on par HP wise as Blasters.

I also have never said or implied that their defenses were terrible. Only that they cannot stand against Scrappers or blasters for very long; in response to the complain that some stalkers don't hang around beyond the 1st attack or 2.

Beyond the AS they do slightly less damage as well. I was just in SC again fighting 1st as a Stalker, then as a Scrapper, and again the heroes had no problem evading and defeating the 4 or 5 stalkers that were there. As a stalker a fire/eng. blaster killed me in two shots. I couldn't get close enough to pull off AS, and w/his IR goggles he was easily able to evad me. I was only able to land 1 hit and that was w/focus, before I was killed again.

No, I don't think Stalkers are squishy or wimpy, that has never been the arguement, but by no means are they in need of a nerf, unless you are going to give them buffs in another area.

All things considered I couldn't care less about PvP, I'm just tired of things getting nerfed, stalker or otherwise in the name of balancing for it.

No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less, I can't compare Regen, because I haven't made either regen stalkers or scrappers.

No, I do not think they squishy, and would never argue that they are. They do have fewer HP..less than 85% of a scrappers as you say. And on the defensive side, their numbers are lower, especially when it comes to the Ninjitsu set, the trade of for that, is they have utility.

The devs built those weaknesses into the sets on purpose; they intentionally gave them less staying power than a scrapper, just like they gave Scrappers less staying power than tanks.

Stalkers are not feeble, but neither are they overpowered.

Lol, I don't even know where to start w/that one..my SR stalker has all of his defenses fully slotted, 3 def SO 1 end red. and I've taken every def. avail to me. I still cannot stand toe to toe long w/other ATs, and I shouldn't be able to, that's not what the AT was designed for.

My PvE built SR scrapper, w/no pool powers other than travel, fitness, and JK from jumping has no problem what so ever fighting stalkers. Sure if they get an AS on me, I'm hurting and somtimes die, but if I get some space and keep moving when they placate to follow up they cannot set up another AS.

As usual when a nerf is called for, instead of people actually playing the AT the majority just jump on the band wagon and make assumptions of how it is.

When I play my blaster or controller, I find that all I really need to do is keep moving and I avoid getting AS'd. but those ATs should keep moving to keep their range adavantage. If I stop for a long period of time, then yeah, I'll more than likely get AS'd.

no my offer was to make up a villain to run with YOUR stalker to see how they dominate and ruin other peoples fun.

Nothing to back it up..all somone has to do is read your posts.

So w/o AS what do you want to the roll of the AT to be, or do you want the whole at to go away?

No, I'm not finding 1 post in 50, there are several post mixed in amongst the general whining. You say the post are by and large from people that play stalkers that don't want their AT nerfed.

I say the majority of posts are from people that have probably never played the AT, or new and don't know how to deal with the new AT and want them nerfed because they have gotten beaten.

Many people feel that they are the worst thing to happen? These forum represent a minority of the population, and as a general rule happy people don't post to complain, or post in general.

I haven't shown you that people enjoy this? There are many people that enjoy this AT, both playing and fighting against it, they've posted, I've posted. [ QUOTE ]
Earlier you said people were looking for the easy fix....but you know what's funny? Stalkers got the easy fix didn't they? One shot kills, massive unresisted damage, Hide + Stealth, Toggle Dropping, Mez Protection, Scrapper level defense, if not better, Auto hit ranged Placate.

[/ QUOTE ] Lol this is a joke right? Blasters and scrappers, and tankers blast through that defense when a stalker stands to fight. Massive unresisted damage? Lethal damage is one of the most resisted damage types in the game. In the one of the last patches the Devs dropped the effectiveness of mez protection. Each stalker AT also has holes in their Status defense. As far as the auto placate, most of the time, fighting an effective player, this power gets trumped easily..how? by continually backing away for the 10 sec. it lasts. By and large it can only be used as an escape power. How do I know this? By playing both a stalker and against stalkers. No PvP bld is needed.

Like I said, let me check out how you work your stalker. what's your build, or do you have one? I seriously hope you do because if you don't I've wasted my time talking to you. Until youv'e played against it AND played it, you can't truly know how whether it's over powered or not.

Yes, again, people will be unhappy, you will never find this utopian PvP; once stalkers get nerfed, they will move on to complaing about some other AT/power that they get beaten by. You give people too much credit I'm thinking.

You think I am wrong? People have been catcalling for a nerf to one thing or another since the beginning of this game, long before people started competing. Simply because another AT could do things theirs couldn't.

Hey, Like I said; I'm perfectly willing to roll up a char. so you can show me how unbalanced and unfun stalkers are to fight against.

As far as deconstructing goes, that's been your MO in the majority of your posts.

And yes I don't fight in BB anymore..I had to start out somewhere didn't I? Actually I've found my lvl 19 stalker had an easier time fighting and getting kills than my 38 stalker does in SC, so if there is an imbalance in a zone where stalkers have the advantage it would be in BB.

As far as running away from as before the roll to hit you..well that's not much of an assassin strike now is it? It's more or less the melee version of snipe.

Noone ever said stalkers are the best thing that happend to them or PvP, don't be dramatic, several have just said they don't have a problem. Check out the AT forums, there are plenty of bragging war stories about wasting stalker, and tips on how to easily beat them.

As far as driving people out of PvP, it's not stalkers doing it. That's a topic for another thread. Why were the Arenas no empty before CoV and largly remain empty now?

I will agree to disagree. Unlike you I'm willing to take a chance and be shown somthing I may not see. I don't know how it is on your server, but on Protector, noone has any harder of a time taking out stalkers than any other AT. And I have to work twice as hard to get a kill w/my stalker in SC than I do my scrapper or blaster, or controller. Which according to you would have more to do w/my lack of knowledge of the ATs capabilities, than w/the AT itself.

I spend plenty of time fighting stalkers, and I don't fight in BB anymore, I fight on both sides.

You can't tell me that those heroes easily defeating stalkers, using normal non PvP blds is absurd, when they fought as invdividuals inside and out side of the base and had no problems what so ever evading, eluding and defeating stalkers.

As far as stalkers sticking and running, hell every AT does that when their HPs start to go low. I can't count the number of times I've been in fights or watched fights, and when the health bar gets to half, they beat feet, whether its scrappers, tankers, 'trollers or any other.

As far as my head being stuck in the sand, I believe it's you that is ignoring what people or saying, and will believe only what you want to believe. Tonight alone I fought with my stalker in SC against heroes and had a very difficult, fun time. I switched over to my hero, and had the same fun difficult time.

I didn't have a hard time from the stalkers, though. It was the brutes and dominators that were tough.

I'll start one up on Triumph tonight.

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Those that tout that AS/hide is out of balance are full of crap. The proof is in the pudding.

[/ QUOTE ] Kellen, that is some counterfeit pudding you've been eating. I suspected this from your other posts. You really aren't aware of the capability of Stalkers. Nor does a situation where you have an army of heroes storming the base...represent a justification for status quo. Did it occur to you that the reason they can do that is because they have the critical mass of powers to fend off stalkers? Is this the only time you want Heroes to feel like it is safe to enter into PvP zones?

One of the consequences of CoH/Cov situation is you've created extremes in PvP. Posters on here, are looking for a middle ground. The only time we seem to find it is when Stalkers aren't swarming. I fought a level 30 Brute in SC with my lvl 40 DM/SR. It was a blast. We fought twice we both had so much fun. I lost the first...because he used inspirations...and I won the second because he didn't (but I have a clear advantage). And guess what happened at the end. A stalker tried to AS me after I won....lol. Typical. At least she let me finish the fight...but she missed..because she didn't have BU in her build.

The point is...that is the stuff that will keep people in PvP Zones. Either you enable it or you don't. The devs have to figure out which path gets them to where they want to be.

Btw....do you have Build-Up?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, I have build up. As I've stated before I am aware of the full capabilities of stalkers. While I was taking dirt nap, I was able to view the powers of the builds used by the heroes, and w/the exception of the scrapper named "PVP" they all had straight forward builds like anyone would make for PvE, nothing special. A couple had bought IR goggles, as the only type of "bonus PvP" attribute.

They weren't just fending off stalkers but the base mobs, and villains, a mixed bag of villains not just stalkers and not just fending off, but defeating them. There have been several posts on here by people stating that they have no problem w/stalkers in PvP and infact find the element they add fun. When I play a hero, I have no problem avoiding or defeating stalkers AS, or stalkers for that matter.

People that fight against the villains are getting better and better everyday at deafeating the new villain ATs. The ones that get caught unaware and cry foul and no fun for the most part, are new and do not use any tactics.

What server is your stalker on, I would like to build a char, go to SC w/you and see how you dominate and ruin peoples fun. Not saying you can't do it, but you have said twice that I probably don't know what a stalker is capable of. Well I would like you to show me what you think I'm missing.

I don't care how eloquent your post, how articulate you want to be, Stalkers don't need to be nerfed. I was just in SC and heroes are all over the villain base, in the hospital and above it, and killing everything and everyone, 3 stalkers included, despite their AS strikes.

I was wondering if they were teamed so I logged my hero on, and none of them were teamed all individuals, a mix of blasters, a controller, and 2 scrappers.

4 out of 6 times when I was able to get close to AS position, they were able to interupt it, or it missed. of the 2 that hit, only 1 resulted in a instant kill and that was on a DA scrapper that had already taken dmg from a turret. the AS on the controller didn't kill him and he popped some greens and flew away.

Those that tout that AS/hide is out of balance are full of crap. The proof is in the pudding. Those that fall prey to this tactic repeatedly, are either new or havn't learned how to properly counter.

I won't speak to whether or not the heroes should be able hide in the villain hospital and ambush people that's not the purpose of the thread, but if they can deal w/AI threats, other villains attacking and STILL not get killed by stalkers ASing, then that speaks for itself.

People are saying that fighting against stalkers make game play unfun. Others are saying that it is fun, I myself enjoy playing against stalkers as much if not more tha playing them.

If anything has ever been proven time and again, it is that you will never please everyone. The people that post on these forums represent a small slice of the gaming comunity, and it's pretty safe to say that people that are upset are the ones that post the most and the most vehemently. The ones that happy don't complain.

I myself, fall into this category I rarely post; except to ask/answer questions or in cases like this when there is a call for a nerf that's not needed. I go in knowing that it's a circular argument, and that minds made up won't change, but somtimes it's not about winning but putting forth the effort that counts.

Quit being doom and gloom people, go play, learn, have fun; if this isn't possible find somthing that is.

Bare bones your arguement is that having AS in it's current state is unfun. That's fine, it does suck to loose. That arguement can be applied to just about every AT/power in the game. Yes every AT and every power, has aspects that can make it difficult and challenging, and cause you to loose and for many that will equate to unfun.

If want to search the archives for the threads that had to do w/the nerfing of the controller powers, you find several posts by me against it.

I maintain that there are numerous counters to stalkers, built into the AT and into the game, IR goggles, travel powers, etc..

As far as the missing situations being comparable..they are, they are both possible. If a stalker misses he's open w/his moderate defence and weak HPs. He may not always get killed but an AS doesn't always 1 shot either.

I don't want to see anyone nerfed, for Pvp or for anything. If somthing is broken, fine fix it. Stalkers are not in this category. If somone loosing finds it unfun, then don't play games. Any number of people that play this game have been killed by stalkers, and have killed stalkers. They aren't uber or broken. They don't need to take multiple pool powers to 'just stay alive'.

It all comes back to: people get beaten, feel it's unfair and instead of thinking of a counter, cry to momma and pappa dev for a nerf. Again the boards have many examples and warstories about how this controller or that tanker or this Keldian 'pwned' a stalker or a group of stalkers.

Basically this is a circular arguement, I won't get on board w/nerfing a fun AT to play and play against. And you feel you are unequivically right.

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This isn't about not winning.

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Then what's it about?

[/ QUOTE ]It's about having a PvP experience that isn't just fun for stalkers or Stalker Hunting teams.

[/ QUOTE ]Part of the problem is you keep pigeon holing people. I am not a stalker, I play all ATs as do many, I have several lvl 50 heroes and only one is a Scrapper.

My problem is the fact that people keep claiming somthing is broken when it's not. I'm not a big fan of the controller AT but if somone wanted to nerf their primary..or any power for that matter..I because some could not find a way to defend against it, I would be aguing just as much against it.

You are quick to shoot down my statements, and that's fine, but they are still valid. Each of the AT forums have comments, and tips about how to waste stalkers. There are ways to do it w/o taking all the pool powers avail and PvE gimping your char to do it.

One comment that was shot at was about me being able to not get AS'd w/o even trying. I think the reply was 'you shouldn't site dumb luck'. My point was missed. If it can be countered w/o trying then it most definately can be done when the player is activley trying and thinking about the possible threat.

Ad nauseum or not, if people don't like what somone has, and perceives it to be unfair to THEM, then they want it simply nerfed.

Also misunderstood and only partially replied to was my comment about AS and aura's both missing. It is possible for both to miss, no matter how many insp. or SO's you have slotted. No matter how high your def. is you can still be hit..as an SR vet, I know that as a fact. I've missed AS several times. I've been revealed by an aura many times. My fire tanker has caught Stalkers, using the same trick I've tried using as a Stalker.

I maintain that there a checks and balances for all of these Powers/and ATs. So people need to quit trying to get people nerfed and just play and figure things out.

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I feel that there are counters to everything, and a way to overcome just about every thing out there....I still haven't figured out how to overcome hurricane used by storm controllers/def. Or repel used by kinetics.

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Then why are you even weighing in on this discussion to begin with? Give me a sheet of paper and a calculator and I could tell you exactly how to beat both of them with any build down to the exact attack-chain and # of slots. Oddly enough, this is the only reason I go into a PvP zone when there's Stalkers in it. Do you LIKE this dangerous precedent that's being set? Are you fully contemplating the results of PvP where only the Elite can have fun? ...For Starters, YOU wouldn't be having any fun there because you'd be dead after every fight.

As a fellow fan of Clan Wolf (I even named one of my heroes after a Kerensky), I have to say, you're acting more like a Jade Falcon. You might *feel* that things are balanced but you're leaping in with assumptions instead of veteran experience.


So let's address the 5 most common myths about Stalking:
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#1: "Keep moving and you won't get AS'd "[*] FALSE! As long as AS is started while your target is in melee range, it WILL hit nomatter how quickly the target leaves melee range during the Interruption window(line of Sight pending)

#2: "Stalkers only do good damage when Critting/AS'ing "[*] FALSE! Stalkers' attacks are still a Primary and all of them including Claws have higher single-target DPS than ALL defender Secondaries, ALL-but-1 Dominator Secondary, 4/6 Controller Primaries, ALL Tanker Secondaries, ALL MM's, and almost half of Corruptor Primaries. The only reason Blasters and Scrappers edge them out, is that they recieve 125% to the Stalkers 100% +DMG from Buidup, but that doesn't take into account the Stalker's higher Damage-Cap that allows AS to function as it does.

#3: "2 Perception powers can see Double-Stealth "[*] FALSE! For ~83% of all possible powerset-combos, it takes 3 or more. Meanwhile most builds can only achieve 1 or 2 perception powers...and one of them depends on winning the battles in Siren's...a zone festering with Stalkers. That's what's known as a Catch22.

#4: "AoE always interrupts my AS! "[*] FALSE! Even a /Regen can pop a Luck and hit the AoE defense-cap(5% chance to be hit) against all slow-ticking or PvP Non-Autohit AoE's that A)Don't have ACC slotting as an Option, B)Have an inherrant ACC Penalty, or C)Are poorely slotted for ACC because the 7 other enhancement options on them take much higher priority in day-to-day combat or may even be required to attack a Stalker effectively once one is finally spotted. And to top this all off, the devs will be changing as many Auto-hit AoE's into To_Hit--checking AoE's as they can get away with, SOON

#5: "I HAVE TO stay hidden for a long time and watch/follow carefully before I can defeat anyone "[*] FALSE, you lurk unseen and pick your fights carefully because it's a Luxury afforded to you. Just like it was a Luxory afforded to Illusionists in Issue#4. But the only thing you need to "watch carefully" is your mouse pointer as you put it over the players in front of you so you can look for +PER powers(Here's a tip: just toggle your targeting button to get him, and press whatever button is bound to /info, it's much faster). ANY player with Stealth and Invis powers has this luxory and always has to follow their target around for a random-to-extended duration of time in order to stack the odds of snagging themselves an easy kill--even against a team of players** There is no need for a Gamble on your part, a Monkey who is taught to use a calculator could do the same thing. Meanwhile players without superior -PER cloaking powers, especially squishies, are at the Mercy of anything they get within visible range of, including gank-squads and Scissors-to-their-Paper. THAT takes REAL self-confidence and skill to shine when you're that guy!



**A couple days ago my Ill/Kin "Stalktroller" killed 3 Masterminds in 15 seconds that were clumped together camping our BB-Base with 2 other Masterminds, and I escaped the fight with 30% health simply by visualizing my target(s)/DPS ahead of time without them knowing I was there. 10 seconds later after resting a few feet out of their perception, I came back for the last one while a rather lame Scrapper distracted and slowly defeated the 2nd of the remaining MM's... BTW, 2 of them were */FF. I don't even want to think about about the size of the groups my Spines/Ninjitsu Stalker will be capeable of soloing in PvP considering I'll have Slow/Fear/Mez protection.

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Actually, I would say I have veteran experience.

As far as not wieghing in on this discussion because, I havn't found a way to get AS to go off against Hurricane or repel w/o using fly..that's just silly. Just because I haven't found a way doesn't mean there isn't one.

As to your accusations that I like the precedents being set, well if you have read any of my previous posts you would see that I most definately do not like anything about this thread..and the precedent for people crying to nerf others powers was set a LONG time ago.

To me not having fun because I would be dead after every fight, well the way things are now, that doesn't happen, no matter what AT I play. I win and I loose whether I play Scrapper or Defender, Stalker or Dominator. Furthermore the char. I play w/are pure PvE blds, nothing thrown in for PvP. My Stalkers only have hide, and none of Heroes have tactics or stealth. They all do just fine..solo or in groups..execept when I get ganged up on of course. I don't want any powers to get nerfed in anyway, it's not needed.

As far as saying I talk like a JF..that's just insulting..if this were MW I would call you a filthy free birth and challenge you to Zellbrigan

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Couple things:

One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.

Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.

Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.

I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.

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so in other words we have to group in order to stop one person? where is the balence in that

[/ QUOTE ] I love how people keep saying that. No he never said that, he talked about 2 diff. Groups: Villain groups, and Hero groups. And the the advantage and disadvantages of each.

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You make some interesting ponts there but I think I'll counter based on what you say here.

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Not to get off on a social rant, but more and more people are of the mind of.."I want it and I want it now"..It applies distinctly here in the game. People don't want to make the sacrafices to attain what ever goal they have.

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If that's true, and I think that may be so, who is going to PvP?
Since more and more people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed it seems to me that you'll end up with a small self-selecting PvP population. These players are all prepared to do whatever they need to in PvP.

Players who play Heroes in this scenario will always aim for the perception cap, making Stalkers primary function useless.

If that doesn't happen the alternative is that there will be no Heroes to fight. Everyone who is interested in PvP will play a Stalker.

(I think this may be my first proper DOOOM! post; I really hope this is not what happens but I'm cynical when it comes to human nature.)

[/ QUOTE ] The thing is, you don't have to have a PvP build to win..I have yet to make a PvP build..mainly because it's not that important to me, I make my char. on concept, which means they have weakness. My lvl 50 claw/SR scrapper has jump kick, the only power taken from the jumping pool..easily arguable as a wasted slot and wasted power pool. But my concept was a acrobatic type player and I like the animation.

Despite this my scrapper can do well or hold his own very well in BB or SC or Warburg. I don't always win, and that's ok. People will play in PvP zones or they won't, I get annoyed at times when playing my scrapper which has TP for a travel power and it's hard to melee w/SS/Flyers/SJers..yes it cuts my fun value when I get close to victory and they jet away before I can land a killing blow..or even land a blow w/everyone bouncing around like pinballs, or the blaster/controller/defender, hitting me from way outside the range of 'focus'.

I could take a fly or hover power, but don't wish to; but you won't see me crying about it. Everyone has different tool, advantages and disadvantages, the crappy thing about human nature is they often make disadvantages seem like insurmountable obsticles, and in terms of this game, that means a call for the nerfing of some AT's powers.

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He never said you HAD or were FORCED to team

[/ QUOTE ]For the vast majority of builds, there is no way to see the stalker otherwise. 50% of the Scrapper secondarys will NEVER see a stalker while solo. Castle is presenting this fact as if to say that Stalkers come out on the bottom. It comes across as a disengenous. As others point out, this is misleading given the context and environment of PvP. This is about normative play, not theortical.

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There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix

[/ QUOTE ] This is constantly bandied about. If Stalkers were only using Hide, then you'd be right. Castle, himself, AS'd a Fire Tankers with Blazing Aura. I've seen Stalkers two shot controllers running two such AS breaking powers.....repeatedly...without inspirations.

Kellen, my guess is you aren't fully aware of what Stalkers can do. This seems to be true of 90% of the stalkers that offers counter arguments. It runs the gamut from perception negating all their powers, bemoaning that they are squishies (nevermind they /SR stalkers have better +DEF than /SR scrappers), to claims that no stalkers can one-shot defenders.

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but everyone wants an easy fix

[/ QUOTE ] Wrong. We want a fix that makes it fun for both sides, not just one.

I'm curious Kellen, why don't we put mobs in the PvP zones that can do this as well? Is it some how "fun" when it can only come from another player? Seriously, let's put Bounty Hunter Mobs that can see Stealthed Stalkers and one-shot them along with everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ] I by no means will say that I know that I know everything a stalker is capable of, my nin/sr stalker is lvl 38, and I think I have a pretty good idea.

Just because you can't see the stalker doesn't mean you can't defend against it. I've foiled many stalkers w/o even meaning to. Many 2ndarys offer some sort of defensive AoE aura, but can miss, just like AS can miss.

I think it would be great to have hunter mobs in PvP zones, that would spice it up for both sides.

The reason that having many counters for a stalkers AS is bandied about so much is because it's true. One of which is as you pointed out firey aura, but hide also comes w/an AoE def. sometimes it works somtimes it doesn't..was the Tank standing still?

And yes, like everything else most of the people would like to see the easy fix.

Finally don't group people in categories, 'like 90% of the stalkers that offer', I'm not a stalker, I'm a player. Like many I've played CoH from the beginning and have played several AT's to 50..I happen to enjoy scrappers best, I just happen to also play a stalker, as well as a controller, and a tank, a dominator etc.