Juzam_Djinn

[ QUOTE ]
Castle, Without any reservation at all, something is very different. I was running missions the day before the patch and missions right after the servers came back with the patch, I am seeing LTs and Bosses really run away...and far in some cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

My missions were in Croatoa last evening. While inside a cave complex fighting Firbolgs the Lts. were indeed running away multiple times. A few times all the way down a winding corridor. Our scrapper chased most of them down and dispatched but still I have never seen this before. Never have I had mobs run from my Mud pot slinging, punchvoke hammering Stone tanker. There is totally something wrong at the moment and no further testing is needed by the player base. Please fix this problem!

Last night on my stone tanker I noticed this strange behavior on missions as well. I play my tankers everyday and there is definitely something amiss.

[ QUOTE ]


I'm betting they changed the AI and didn't tell us. Probably so that we wouldn't affect their experiment. Essentially is a double blind experiment, since we dont know, and they gather their data through datamining.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you give them to much credit. And if your theory is true then this is just another example of under-handed changes by the devs. Not informing your PAYING customer base of changes is dirty pool.

I'm still leaning toward the its a bug theory.

If the supergroup computer functioned similar to newspaper missions all the sudden bases would be very popular. Short SG only missions available at your super base.

Considering as a tanker our powers are mostly designed around survival this is a total nerf. Those survival powers are rendered useless to my team if I don't get to consistently use them. If I cannot keep that AV's attention for most of the fight what good is my tanker? Any team would be better off with offensive suited team mates instead of my tanker. It is just unfathomable that we are being FORCED to purchase the taunt power in order to do our jobs versus arch villains.

This is the kind of ridiculous crap that started in games like SWG. Part of the hallmark of this game is the diversity which is allowed in player choices. I enjoyed the fact that once I was high enough level I could drop taunt from my build. And now I'm faced with wasting my I8 respec possibly to get it back so I can tank AVs? You have got be be kidding me !

[ QUOTE ]


No comments on the gauntlet issue at the moment -- but I am reading the threads and taking notes.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hope so Mr. Castle. The pinnacle of COH is battling AVs in the end game. It seems just a tad ridiculous that I have to purchase a power (taunt) to keep their attention. So if I don't do the former my level 50 tanker is nothing more then a knock-off scrapper with allot of hit points versus an AV?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes during the start of the battle you should single out the boss. But when your team starts taking damage you should have the common sense not to stay target locked and peel for them. What is so hard to understand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The concept itself is not hard to understand. Your description of the concept in your guide could be hard to understand, especially for a beginning tanker.

Don't be offended, I am just offering a suggestion that you could do a little editting to make this more understandable to a noob. When I read it I could see a beginning tanker saying to himself, "Wait he says to concentrate on the Boss, but then he says NOT to get fixated?"

It was just a suggestion.

Maybe a rewording is needed. If you are constantly switching targets as you suggest you aren't concentrating on the boss. Maybe you could say, "Always keep your eye on the boss, even when switching targets." Or "Concentrate on the Boss until you have his undivided attention, then switch your focus to getting all the other baddies to hate you too by cycling through targets."

And I do agree with you about switching targets. A scrapper might be a better assist target, because they are allowed/supposed to get scrapper-lock and should be killing bosses. But IMO a tank needs to be switching targets often in order to make sure he has all the baddies attention. Auras work great, but aren't infallible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You very artfully have offered a suggestion with this post. Before all you did was make a comparison with two items quoted out of context. Offended? I'm never offended by a thoughtful post or something that points out a better way of doing something. Simply quoting items of my guide to prove I have "contradicted myself" is nothing more then trolling in my mind. Thus far Aett_Thorn's posts have been in my opinion while slightly argumentative at times, the most helpful. I appreciate his objective contribution to my little guide. And now that you have actually made a post I also thank you for the ideas and joining our discussion on how to make this a better guide.

If this indeed is true then I think its totally a$$ backwards.

Attacking an AV should make them stick to you since you are actually working at it ! Not some hokey power (taunt) where you call the AV a name or something.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't be silly folks. Taunt isn't required it just "adds flexibility"... Isn't that what the man said?

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly will add flexibility to your teammates. Once their bones are broken, I'm sure they'll be very flexible.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Concentrate on that Boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
DO NOT get fixated on one target for the entire battle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could see how people would find this confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes during the start of the battle you should single out the boss. But when your team starts taking damage you should have the common sense not to stay target locked and peel for them. What is so hard to understand?

[ QUOTE ]
.


Also, thought the guide was a bit contradictory, in instructing to focus on the boss, while changing targets with every attack, and using as many AOE's as possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

I respectfully disagree. A good tanker does all of those things constantly. Jump the boss(s) and get their attention when possible, switch targets (never did I say constantly) to pull baddies off your team mates when possible and lastly AOE to help kill the masses if you can.

Perhaps I was not artful enough in my choice of words for you? Either way positive or negative thanks for the feedback

I added a link to all the existing goodies and guides

Well I knew as soon as I clicked "submit" there would be the camp that agrees with me. And then there would be the camp that agrees to disagree with me. However I still maintain that my little guide is a helpful beginners primer. There is plenty of areas on these forums discussing more advanced topics of tanking. So while I understand your precautionary statements I don't think I have done anything but be helpful by authoring this little guide.

Again thanks for the input

Juzam's Tao of Tanking for beginners

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with recap number 3, nor your supporting section for it.

A good tank will hold aggro all the time. A GREAT tank knows when to hold aggro and when to bleed it off.

Also, a link to Circeus's taunt guide would be great in the aggro section, as it's way more complicated than you make it out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again as prefaced in the beginning:

What follows will be a short guide to the most basic concepts of tanking.

I actually agree with you However a new player to tanking will get themself killed more often then not trying to hold everything. That is an advanced step and a final goal. Thank you for the input however.

Juzam's Tao of Tanking for beginners

So you want to be a tanker? Well what follows will be a short guide to the most basic concepts of tanking. Just for background purposes I will include that the author has played tanks in various forms for years in online games. Therefore I feel qualified to express opinions and ideas in this guide which I deem to be helpful. But you as a tanker will have to decide what works best for you at the end of the day.

So what is the primary role of a tanker?

Tankers are the backbone of any group dynamic. They keep other teammates alive, not by healing or doing the most damage but by keeping the enemies attention off the rest of your team. Do this well, and groups will be lining up for your help.

Ok I understand what my basic role is now. So how do I accomplish it with success?

First I will answer with an old adage, "perfect practice makes perfect". It is literally the gospel once you enter the ream of tanking. The difference between an experienced and practiced tank and a player which is not is quite alarming. So the first rule to becoming a good tank is stick with it because your tanker instinct will not develop overnight.

In an MMO such as City of Heroes the baddies you fight have what is termed an "aggro rating". This term "aggro" is just MMO lingo for aggression which is generated in fights with damage. The more you damage an opponent the more "aggro" you generate from them and their attention is turned to you. This is a key aspect of MMO combat to prevent the massive damage dealing classes from never being in danger. It also teaches gamers that yes you can indeed bite off more then you can chew.

Enter the tanker. As a tanker we have the innate ability of Gauntlet. This inherent power makes all of our single target attacks "taunt" baddies. Taunting generates "aggro" which makes the baddies turn their attention to you. Now to avoid confusion tankers also have access to additional ways to taunt baddies. We have various aura powers which can be used which actually taunt enemies around us. We also can purchase a power called "taunt" which can grab up to five baddies attention from range. Both of the former can greatly help you maintain aggro and are just other possible tools for the tanker utility belt.


So lets recap what we have learned so far:

1) Tankers primary role is not healing or doing the most damage but keeping the enemies attention off the rest of the team.

2) This is accomplished by generating "aggro" from enemies by taunting them with attacks, auras and powers.


Ok so now that we have those two very basic concepts down just how the heck do we do this?


1) Tanks go in first !

A good way to begin your career as a tanker is to become the point person for the team. Being point is a lot more then running ahead of the group. It means you must keep up with your team members and make sure no one is straggling or lost. Go slow, it's not a race. Teams die fast when foolish tanks charge around every corner. If some Rambo wants to constantly run ahead of you (this WILL happen) calmly warn them its a very bad idea. As point person you want to do a little recon and see what you are up against. Usually it is a good idea once you have engaged the enemy for the tanker to target the toughest, baddest, enemy there. Concentrate on that Boss. When you attack the Boss it can aggro the henchman surrounding them. Once the toughest baddie is out of the picture, remove the remainder of the baddies methodically.


2) Aggro management

Tanks MUST obtain and hold enemy aggro.

The following are the most basic ways to initiate combat and develop aggro:

Charge into middle of mob group, let loose a AoE attack then begin taunting. Continue to fight with steady stream of AoE and taunt until all mobs defeated. This is my go-to strategy and is usually effective for obtaining and sustaining aggro.

Herd (term for taunting a group of mobs and then running, bringing said group to a new location) the mobs around a corner or other good ambush point. This is effective when you are up against mobs who are more likely to use range to attack your team rather than melee. Stacking them up and making them close within melee range makes your aggro holding job a whole lot easier. Be aware however not just Tanks, but all ATs should understand the mechanics of herding. Especially the part about dragging mobs around corners. Foes that use ranged attacks are unpullable unless the Tanker ducks behind cover, forcing the baddies to follow. Tanks and teammates should recognize the optimum corners where a herd is likely to end up -- and be patient while the herding is underway. If non-Tanks attract too much attention, the herding can be spoiled.

Pulling method uses a ranged attack user pull to team location. I use this tactic when there are multiple mob groups close to each other and if I charge in, it is likely I'll set off both groups. This is also good for groups that contain multiple purples and reds or is just one HUGE group. If your puller is any good or she he can whittle it down some so you and your team can revert to one of the other two options listed above.

2) Damage sponging

Damage sponging is the hardest part of your job but, done correctly you make your team a success. Sure every tank has their limitations but in the end of the day us tankers are the best suited for taking a beating. Just remember that everyone else is a squishy, cream puffs. Do not drag them into dangerous conflicts expecting them to take damage like you can.

A good tanker is always busy switching targets to maintain aggro when needed. DO NOT get fixated on one target for the entire battle. You must be dynamic and control the fight which includes knowing when to call a retreat. Learn to use your body position to direct AoE and cone attacks (i.e. flamethrowers, etc) away from your team. In other words, you should be facing your team while the foes are sandwiched between. The biggest difference between the good tanks and the bad tanks is what I call the "defensive instinct". You really need to play zoomed out and observe the flow of the battle. Remember aside from fighting or anything else your most important team role is to keep the attention of those baddies on you.

Having said that most other ATs are not helpless at all. Especially if they are being driven by excellent players. That aside though never underestimate the potential for the life bar of a team mate to suddenly drop. Don't bite off more then you can chew ever because a dead tank is of no help to the team. Just be prepared to slap a baddie in the back of the head to give teammates breathing room when needed. If you are paying attention to the flow of the battle they should almost never need to ask for the former.

The classic role of tanker as damage sponge is still alive and well in COH. But the days of reading a book while tanking are over, at least as far as COH is concerned. Tanking is a very active and intense activity. And although the COH tank is a linear descendant of his MMO predecessors, the specific mechanics of tanking in COH mark a major change in a fundamental mechanic of aggro management by beginning to change the tank from a passive aggro-generator who parks baddies to an active and reactive protector of his team members, making for increasingly complex combat. Tanking in COH is a very fun and engaging experience.


So our final recap:

1) Practice makes perfect literally. Don't let the late blooming nature of your shiny new tanker discourage you. Get on teams and tank !!

2) Tankers primary role is not healing or doing the most damage but keeping the enemies attention off the rest of the team.

3) Tanks MUST obtain and hold enemy aggro. A good tanker is always busy switching targets to maintain aggro when needed.

4) Do not drag your team into dangerous conflicts expecting them to take damage like you can.

5) Tanking in COH is a very fun and engaging experience.

In conclusion I hope this little guide was informative and helpful in your new tanking career. Good tanks are not developed overnight nor is good tanking skills. However if you stick with it the basic groundwork for tanking excellence it will never leave you. It is akin to riding a bicycle...you never forget.

Tank on !

For more advanced guides and build specific information please check here:

Advanced Tanking Guides

[ QUOTE ]
Hehe nice.

There's been a huge influx of SWG peeps lately. The ones with the loudest mouths so far have been the Black Lotus Clan on Victory server and some l33t d00ds from the Gorath server that play on Freedom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh there is some real winners out there. Just ignore them they are just mad that Jabba the Hutt used them as love slaves

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Damn, Juzam.

You're levelling quite fast...I need to get Silent Spy up a few levels so I don't feel like I'm dragging behind...damn distractions. Damn Mexico [on vacation]. Damn City of Villains [I'm sorry CoV, I didn't mean that, I'm sorry, don't leave me :P].

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe, don't worry. Once he hits 38 it will slow down and he'll be like [censored]?

[/ QUOTE ]

After grinding a jedi in SWG this is like vacation

[ QUOTE ]
Damn, Juzam.

You're levelling quite fast...I need to get Silent Spy up a few levels so I don't feel like I'm dragging behind...damn distractions. Damn Mexico [on vacation]. Damn City of Villains [I'm sorry CoV, I didn't mean that, I'm sorry, don't leave me :P].

[/ QUOTE ]

We are actually behind schedule since our cable modem died a few days ago. But everything is in order again and we almost got a level last night.

With six to seven people in my group on invincible the sheer amount of baddies/XP adds up very fast.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Also teamed with the Pingu Protector, Juzam, and Kitty for the First Terra Volta Respec

[/ QUOTE ]



That was good stuff !

[/ QUOTE ]

That was very fun, and it was great working with everyone at the Hami Raid too

I look forward to Hami's [censored] dropping soon so he sticks around long enough for us to have another raid. Will be willing to take Heal Team Lead any time

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any kind of level requirement to go on one of those raids ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Level 45 and above. And the more trollers, defenders, blasters in level range on the server, the better

[/ QUOTE ]

Woo hoo 12 lvls to go !

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Also teamed with the Pingu Protector, Juzam, and Kitty for the First Terra Volta Respec

[/ QUOTE ]

That was good stuff !

[/ QUOTE ]

That was very fun, and it was great working with everyone at the Hami Raid too

I look forward to Hami's [censored] dropping soon so he sticks around long enough for us to have another raid. Will be willing to take Heal Team Lead any time

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any kind of level requirement to go on one of those raids ?

[ QUOTE ]


Also teamed with the Pingu Protector, Juzam, and Kitty for the First Terra Volta Respec

[/ QUOTE ]

That was good stuff !

[ QUOTE ]
Do you want to be?
I will be glad to put you in Chapter IV or Chapter V.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can cameo the fabulous Juzam also if you like. Just a part about a blue skinned Djinn (if I ever have enough influence) running by chasing some crooks yelling, "SLUG BRAINS !"

Ok just kidding, but nice role play