Johnny_Butane

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I bent my Wookie.

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That's nice, dear.



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you still have never explained how such a failed class as Tanker still manages to be THE FOURTH MOST POPULAR A.T. IN THE ENTIRE GAME!


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What do you think you can tell me about game design when I'm ONE HUNDRED FEET TALL!?



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So when countering this retort do you intend to use personal attack fallacies or do you intend to quote me out of context. I really would like to know how you plan on showing off your inability to reasonably argue ahead of time.

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Again: irony-slice-plop.


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The hints and comments in the last year or so from the Devs suggest the outline of something pretty impressive

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Hints and comments like...?

And of course they're going to vaguely allude to things.

No dev is going say "we've got something really mediocre planned that Positron slapped together between office DnD matches."

You may be giving them far too much credit and reading to too much into their form responses and patting themselves on the back.


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resort to personal attack...false blanket of discredit...fallacies

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The irony is so thick you could cut it with Dual Blades.



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Still haven't found that Shift key yet?

Keep looking! It can be a tricky little scoundrel!



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Now Paragon Studios is about at the same staff strength as when CoV was released. And guess what, there's work on a new CoV-sized release with game engine changes.

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If you don't think it's fair of me to say there's not going to be extensive changes because they've not been talked about, you can't assume there will be for the same reason.

But we can infer some things.

Infer from what they've released to so far and from the survey this expansion pack is based on. And there NOTHING in that to suggest the expansion is going to be that big.

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I think for right now it might be wise to turn the burner down a notch or two, Johnny. Let's see what the Devs are planning.

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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.

And that is exactly what's got me down.


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So you don't want Tankers to have aggro control abilities.

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They already have aggro control abilities. They control aggro so well it makes more than one of them largely redundant.

The problem is THEY'RE NOT the heavy hitters they should be. They're NOT what one would resonably expect from characters with powers like super strength and invulnerability, especially when compared to Brutes and Scrappers.

If you can't tell the difference between me suggesting things like the Tanker Domination proposal and calling for a tank-mage, you're the one failing Game Design 101.

Here's a little FYI. Brutes have demonstrated you can be more survivable than a Scrapper, and be able to hit harder than them some of the time. A Brute has Tanker resistance caps, more HP than a Scrapper and he's capable of hitting MUCH harder than the Scrapper at times.

How is that any different than my Tanker inherent proposal suggesting Tankers could hit harder than they do now some of the time? It's not.
Few argued my proposal was stright up over powered or unreasonable and I don't think ANYONE thought it was going to turn Tankers into tank-mages. But it allowed them to be heavy hitters.

And had it fallen on the ears of devs who gave a damn about the AT's conceptual failings, I suspect it would have gotten more consideration.


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QR

Geez, another drama thread in the tankers forum? C'mon guys/gals...not even the defenders forum is made up of such drama llamas.

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The Defenders likely figure they're due to be looked at after Domms are done getting theirs.


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JB has lost sight of the goal of these debates that is making Tankers more useful, and better balanced within the game as the game evolves.


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I don't want to be part of a goal to make Tankers better aggro sponges and shove them further into a rut they should never have been designed and forced into in the first place.

These "debates" are anything but. Exactly as I said before, you've got a collection of players here enforcing a status quo. There's no progress to be made from that because they don't want progress.


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Since "Going Rogue" was announced and JB made public his decision that he is going to CO as soon as it comes out


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Correction. I'm going to try the game the second I can. I'm going to leap at the chance when someone offers me things these devs would never deliver and demonstrates they've been listening to like minded criticism and complaints. I'll greatfully entertain them vieing for my attention and money after being dismissed and insulted by these devs.

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he has become even more combative and has stopped adding useful dialogue tho the discussion besides ranting "I'm Right, told you so"

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What would you have me add?

"Year 2.5 Despite a lot of talk, nothing's changed with Tankers. Except it seems the devs have done exactly what I've always hoped they wouldn't and now they're going to introduce another melee AT blue side can can tank well enough for 90% of then content in the game and also gets to make Tanker damage look even worse in comparison. Go devs."?



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1. Tankers (and indeed all AT's) have fewer options or options of poor quality, past selection of primary and secondary power selections for increasing damage. I suggested a while back giving tankers the same level of benefit from leadership pool as Defenders or Controllers. Other suggestions have been made including but not limited to a stacking damage resistance debuff inherent, a Domination style inherent (JB's idea) that would multiply damage and aggro radius when active. Also suggested a battle stance system allowing tankers to lower mitigation to increase damage.


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I also want to add to this that the problem above isn't something you can fix at the power pool or IO sets level. The simple fact is the ability to get more damage is easier to balance on some ATs more than others. It's got to be done at the AT level from what I see, and since the Tanker is the AT that's affected the most by the problem, they are what needs changing. With respect to this, the system works fine for all the other ATs.


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the unnamed woman who gave birth to the Snakes

[/ QUOTE ]Unnamed? Woman? Try Stheno the Gorgon.

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It was an unnamed woman who was incarnated with the power of Stheno the Gorgon in a similar way Marcus Cole was incarnated with the power of Zeus.

So yes, referring to the "unnamed woman" as an Incarnate is as correct as referring to Marcus Cole or Statesman as one.


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Only if they ignore the multiple times these devs have said "Hey, that's a good idea, and we'd love to be able to implement it, but it would require a complete engine overhaul."


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Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO instead of spending that time screwing around pushing out booster packs and trying to chase rainbows like thinking in-game advertising would catch on in a five year old stale title with a shrinking audience.

Then maybe they'd have something to SHOW now besides a pre-rendered cinematic and would be able to deliver those long asked-for features to compete with CO, a game that's offering many of those features.

But the engine isn't what's stopping the devs from addressing the over restrictive nature of the AT/powers system. The engine isn't what's stopping new travel powers from being created. The engine didn't make all the grassy areas in the game perfectly flat polygons, the engine is quite capable of rendering rolling hills. The engine isn't stopping zones from having more content. It's not keeping Dark Astoria and Boomtown empty. The engine didn't stop dual pistols from being created. That's a relatively easy power set to make.

CO isn't a surprise for them. They knew there was a team working on MUO long before they split formally. They likely knew CO was on the horizon when the project became that. They knew competition was on the way, but they couldn't act until NC bought them out. Well that was a year and a half ago, which means they had that time to be laying the ground work on something big to respond with. Going Rogue, based on the survey and based on what they've said, doesn't sound like a year and a half went into it and doesn't look like anything special. You can read for yourself likely features it's going to have. They posted the survey on Massively long ago. It doesn't side like an engine overhaul or even anything more than i16 with some stuff tacked on to pad it.


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Johnny, throwing up apples and oranges comparisons is not going to help your case. You're throwing up examples of realism that a consumer of that genre would expect to be in those particular games. A consumer of a soccer MMO would expect that the goalkeeper and only the goalkeeper would be able to use their hands. A consumer of a racing MMO would expect cars to be able to live up to performance specs.


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No, I'm showing examples of conventions one would reasonably expect a game to be faithtful to in that respective genre.
Even in the most arcade-like, unrealistic racer, people would expect A Porsche to be faster and more agile than a Pontiac.

You say, there's no "real super heroes" to compare to, but there are comic books, super hero movies and other super hero video games. There are established conventions and people's expectations come from them.

For example, a lot of people would expect the bulletproof hero with super strength to be the team's heavy hitter and strong guy, not just a meatshield.

And in THAT case arguing about it is moot because the devs themselves have admitted their fauliure in that case and have said that not reasonably meeting people's expectations of the genre's conventions in that case was a mistake.

Now, one group of devs broke off and are now doing another game. I wonder if they'll demonstrate they've learned from that specific mistake. My initial impression from reading interviews and previews is maybe they have.

The other group stayed on CoX, and judging from what I've seen here, they've ignored that mistake and have even done things to make it worse.

So, getting back to what Toc said, the devs' SELF ADMITTED FAILURE to reasonably respect genre conventions is far from being a case of the game just not being my preference. The devs themselves have vindicated that preference, and one group of them look like they're trying to mend that failure.

Why this group of devs isn't, I can't say. But what I can say is by ignoring it they're not winning any points in my book.



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Some things we know, or can infer about Incarnates from looking at Statesman and Recluse from the CoH novels and comics:

-Incarnates start off weaker and then become more powerful over time.

That's a given, especially in this game. Marcus Cole gets knocked out fairly easily after getting his powers. He doesn't fly early on. The novel isn't clear at what point he starts flying, but it's easily several months to a year after gaining his powers. 1931-ish. And it's depicted more as gliding at first, as opposed to the super sonic fight he demonstrates by the mid 1980's. He becomes much stronger over time too. We see him almost struggling to heft a tank circa WWII in the CoH cinematic, but in the Freedom Phalanx novel he lifts and flys almost a quarter of a skyscraper.

-Incarnates consciously and unconsciously control how their powers manifest and can shape their own transformations.

When Relcuse first reveals his spider legs he makes a big deal about boasting to Statesman about how he was able to willfully control his transformation and the spider theme came from him associating himself with the Arachnos organization which he was tring to take over.

In the frist novel, Marcus Cole is depicted as being 6' tall with an athletic build.
By the mid 80's he's bulked up to a super human physique and has put on a few inches in height. Positron even commented in the novel that seeing him out of costume, it would be hard not to recognize the build, even if his identity wasn't already public at that point. This, like Recluse, could be an expression of Marcus controlling his change over time.

-They can travel to other dimensions under their own power.

Statesman does this in the first comic arc. He drags a bunch of Phalanxers with him to some kind of Olympian dimension to confront Prometheus. In the Freedom Phalanx novel, Statesman mentions having visited Hades and the Greek underworld and meeting Sisyphus in person.


That's all I can think of off the top of my head, at this minute.


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I do think you're seriously deluding yourself if you think those other games on the horizon will deliver you to the promised land of comic-book godhood

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Toc, you don't get it. You never will get it.

Perhaps you would if one day you play a soccer MMO where some designer who admits he's only ever been to a single soccer match has decided that it would be "unfair" for the goalie to be able to touch the ball with his hands when no one else can.

Or a racing MMO where their Porsche was interpreted by a dev who doesn't even have a driver's licence as a car that handles like a garbage truck and tops out at 45mph.

Maybe then a Porsche fan would say something about it on their forums and in response they'll get a kind of Prisoner-esque unlogic from the people who flocked to the Porsche/garbage truck like "Whoever said Porsches were fast, Number Six?"

or

"We can't have fast Porsches that break 100mph because that would be unbalanced and then nobody would want to drive the Pontiac Fiero. Ignore the fact the Fiero goes 350mph, can drive up walls and shoots fireballs. That's OK and fair because it doesn't team well."




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-Giving him the Hammer of Justice power that Statesman has, yet, just like good ol' States, he wouldn't use this until about 35% health.


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I don't think he has it, canonically speaking

In the comic, when Statesman used it in a fight against him and his lieutenants, it seems to take Tyrant by surprise.


Beyond that, I'm generally against making signature characters more powerful than they already are.


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Hmmm, you seem to be right there. Curse me for overlooking the comics

And I guess maybe just the Laser Beam Eyes fix is all he truly needs (plus Dull pain would work well).

Thanks for telling me about that comic info, I had no idea.

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Energy Torrent could be a better match, depending on what he's supposed to do.


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-Giving him the Hammer of Justice power that Statesman has, yet, just like good ol' States, he wouldn't use this until about 35% health.


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I don't think he has it, canonically speaking

In the comic, when Statesman used it in a fight against him and his lieutenants, it seems to take Tyrant by surprise.


Beyond that, I'm generally against making signature characters more powerful than they already are.


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Besides, there's now at least a third (Tyrant) in play with the expansion. A fourth if you count Sstheno, though IIRC she's put down. And, if Reichsman comes back... a fifth.


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There's Statesman, Recluse, Sstheno, some hints about Trapdoor getting his power from the Well and Imperious.

We don't have any clue if Tyrant or Reichsman got their powers the same way. Keep in mind Tyrant is currently in game as Energy Melee and Statesman is SS. That suggests there's something different about them besides personalities.

And Tyrant has been depited in the comics as weaker than Statesman, even getting punked and throw off balance by Statesman's lightning powers.

But yeah, it's too early to be saying anything is a rock solid "no" or "go".

I like the cannon and lore in the game. It's the one area I find no special fault. Hero 1(the dev) is awesome.

But it's also the area I don't have to pay for the expansion to experience. Within a couple weeks after releasing it'll be up on Paragonwiki for me to read, even if I pass on buying it.


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Doing the Midnighter and Cimerora storylines tend to indicate, with the "lost origin," that they've started working that little snag out.

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In my opinion, the mention of them in the arcs was to keep the ball in play. I don't think they really know what do to with it yet.

People have expectations on Incarnates because of the lore that I don't think the game will be able to facilitate.

If they were going to tackle them, the expansion would have been the time if they hadn't gone in the direction they have. I'm all but certain they aren't going to be in Going Rogue, because if they were they'd be hyping the heck out of that angle and there was ZERO mention of them in the survey for the expansion.



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can't throw items in the environment, run up walls etc) and the list goes on.


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I bet a lot of things on that list, like running up walls or running on water, are things the devs have in fact said they could do but are simply "not worth our time". That was the case with running on water and running up walls.

Well if they're worth it to you, and it seems they are, and other games will give them to you, I agree that moving on is the best action you can take.

I also agree Day Jobs was a waste of a feature concept.
Good luck whatever you end up deciding.


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Okay, I've gotta ask, it's bugged me for too long.


WTF is up with the dot three lines down at the end of all your posts? Is it representative of some lost loved one, or a reminder of some epic event from your childhood? Because it's driving me INSANE!!!!

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In a print medium like these forums, 90% of communication is lost. So, I've formed a habit of making sure I clearly illustrate my point in every post.




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I think you're judging the expansion a little early. We don't know all the stuff that is gonna be added. I'm not claiming there is much more than what has already been announced, I'm just saying we don't know.


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That's fair. But we do know what they chose to hype so far as main features and what they have not.

"Grand reveals" are not something I've come to not expect from Positron, so I must express my doubts and say I'm inclined to take the expansion at face value (or lack thereof) at this point.


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And they have every right to tell the devs and the community how they feel about it.

[/ QUOTE ] Not on the forums they don't.

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I disagree.



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ED was ultimately a good change

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I'm inclined to agree. It caused issues, some of which still aren't fixed, but it ammounts to pulling a rotten tooth. Hurt to be done, but the body as a whole is better for it.

But my point is, that little survey when you cancel doesn't do jack.

The devs will do what they will, and in the case of Going Rogue it looks like they opted for the easy route: Repeat what they did with CoV (add a new city, despite the player base being spread out as is and ignoring the fact we have empty, content-starved zones going to waste) and do a feature that's fairly easy to execute (side swapping).

Now, I have to assume those plus pistols and demon summoning are the major features otherwise they would have hyped what was. That may change as the hype machine operates.

But at this point in time, in my opinion, Goign Rogue feels very much like an overhyped issue 16 they padded a little so they could slap a price tag on instead of a full blown real expansion and instead of something proper to answer the upcomming other super hero MMOs with.

So with that in mind, yeah I think there's a case to be made for people being bitter about things these devs would never deliver on but other super hero MMOs are offering. And they have every right to tell the devs and the community how they feel about it. Not everyone who leaves will say anything though. Some will just leave quietly, but still bitter, and that is also fine.


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you whine a lot for someone who didnt play a tanker before issue 4


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You're insulting for someone who doesn't know what a Shift key is.


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