Johnny_Butane

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MMOs are extremely susceptible to the law of unintended consequences. Very little is "easy" to do, and the stuff that is could lead to a lot of not easy work later on.

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What about easy stuff like allowing players to get their travel powers earlier?

Oh wait, 60 Month Reward.

Guess that one was easy.

You see, that's a perfect example of a limitation that didn't need to exist, but did anyways. The devs were perfectly willing to allow players to do that...when they were hard up for a quickie reward that required little work or thought.

How many other frivolous limitations like that exist when they don't have to? A lot in my opinion. And why should they make an exception for one set of players but not all of them?
They can't honestly think one needs five years experience playing this game to NOT gimp themselves if that restriction was removed.

The restriction didn't need to exist. It didn't break the game for people when it was removed. This is one of those "lot of little things the devs could to improve, open up and make the existing system less restrictive" but aren't doing (or in this case, they're not doing it for everyone even though they could).



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As an example, I would probably say Spiderman would be a SR/MA Tanker (were he a CoH character), because of his ability to get and hold the enemy's attention. That's one of his defining characteristics. In my mind, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to make a SR/MA Tanker. It's the same pairing as Inv/SS (ie. Defense/Offense). Ranged attacks complicate this a bit, but again, with a little effort, they could be balanced too.

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I would agree, especially if you could get Web Grenade from a Power Pool (as opposed to waiting almost your character's entire life for an Epic Pool). Rendering the Epic Pools open at level 6, or even level 10, would greatly expand on the number of concepts players could execute. Expanting on the number of Power Pools would too. So would removing prerequisites for pool powers the same way they did for Vets with travel powers.

There's lot of ways to open up the system more than it is withouth scrapping the whole thing or greatly unbalancing the game, yet the devs aren't doing them.



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From all other indications, this power force seems to be the Battalion which has a mention in game. And from Statesman talking about which came to be the Inventions system, the Battalion were going to be a powerful faction. The player would need invention in order to successfully fight them.

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If you read the survey about the Going Rogue expansion pack, it mentions 10 new Univeral Enhancement Slots that "would bring the player to a theoretical level 60" once they earned them all as well as a mysterious alien space station appearing above earth for players to explore and earn these enhancements.

If we assume the space station wasn't scrapped in favour of Praetoria and it and the enhacement slots could be coming AFTER the expansion or even as part of it, the enhancers may be the new powerful edge we'll need to fight the Battalion, and the space station a harbringer of them, assuming they haven't scrapped the ideas.


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[/ QUOTE ]Hmmmm, do you have the survey somewhere? I don't know where to find it. I would like to see it. We should base our speculation on it instead of half-baked ideas from years ago.

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I don't, but Massively does.

http://www.massively.com/2008/08/09/...cox-direction/

I should be noted there's no mention of Praetoria, which is why I suspect that it has replaced the space station idea.



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Oh, I'm aware of that. I'm mostly pushing back to get thought into "What would actually be acceptable/work" (as far as what they'd do.)


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Well how the heck should I know? Ask the devs.

I've spent two years suggesting what I honestly think are reasonable, balanced tweaks for Tankers. It could be argued the devs don't share what I think is and isn't acceptable since they've not jumped at adopting any of them.


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And I'll repeat the objection about how they'd drop - especially if they can't filter them per side. (I know, going rogue may make this less of an issue - heh - but wouldn't eliminate it entirely.)

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I think you just answered your own question. Cross-factional ATs makes this a non-issue IMO.


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The Fighting pool is not martial arts. Nor is Energy Melee. Armored looking costume parts do not an armored hero make.

Those are no more realizations of the examples given than Invulnerability was for will power characters or a single katana was for Dual Blades.

Nor is the pistol temp power for the upcomming Dual Pistol power set.

As always, you fail.


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From all other indications, this power force seems to be the Battalion which has a mention in game. And from Statesman talking about which came to be the Inventions system, the Battalion were going to be a powerful faction. The player would need invention in order to successfully fight them.

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If you read the survey about the Going Rogue expansion pack, it mentions 10 new Univeral Enhancement Slots that "would bring the player to a theoretical level 60" once they earned them all as well as a mysterious alien space station appearing above earth for players to explore and earn these enhancements.

If we assume the space station wasn't scrapped in favour of Praetoria and it and the enhacement slots could be coming AFTER the expansion or even as part of it, the enhancers may be the new powerful edge we'll need to fight the Battalion, and the space station a harbringer of them, assuming they haven't scrapped the ideas.


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The devs also have done stuff to improve the game


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You fail strawman

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As far as changing the whole system, do you even know what you are asking?


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Yes, for a sequel with improved systems. Failing that, improving the existing systems within this game. As opposed to shoveling fluff via booster packs and expansions, ignoring flaws in their outdated, restrictive systems or just putting bandaids over top of them.



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Don't be surprised when you can't make your superman clone there either.

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What about a pistol and sword wielding martial artist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool

Or a brawler with sonic powers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary

Or an armored hero with energy blasts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man

Or this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Jordan

Or the thousands of other very popular character concepts that aren't able to be realized in CoX's system, but can be realized in a more open system like CO's (assuming they add a sonics power set at some point).

Defend CoX's AT and power system as being the best they could come up with at the time if you like, but that doesn't change the fact the current devs haven't done much to improve it, remove the flaws in it or open it up for concepts like these and others.

Much could be done in this game to improve the situation, but the devs aren't doing it. Even more could be done if they could start fresh with CoH 2. They aren't doing that either. What they are doing, is pushing fluff and now an expansion pack that doesn't do anything about the outdated and limiting systems that are the real things that date CoX, hold it back and can make newer titles more attractive than they really should be.


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... which, again, are already handled through current IOs giving defense bonuses, damage bonuses, resists, faster recharge and the like. Not to mention choices in power pools... which themselves can open up more sets.

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The diffference being, with AT specific sets you can then open up new kinds of bonuses and perks you couldn't on sets intended for all of the ATs because some perks and bonuses are more acceptable on some ATs than others.

A global IO granting some kind of blanket mez protection may be more acceptable on a Defender than on a Controller.

And not only kinds of perks, but potency of the existing perks.

For example, an single IO granting a 20% damage increase may be more acceptable on a Tanker than on a Blaster, Stalker or Scrapper.

I'm not suggesting these as an actual examples, but you can clearly see how some bonuses and how strong they are can be more or less balanced depending on the AT they're situated on. AT specific sets would allow the devs to give bonuses, perks and build opertunities to ATs they can't have now because they have to consider how those bonuses would affect other ATs.


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Tankers can't be balanced to your vision within a vacuum, no matter how much you post to the contrary.


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And yet when I propose suggestions on how to achieve this, most people agree that the suggestions are not unreasonable or not worth exploring.

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Incidentally, of what I know of CO, it will not be the life changing event that you think it will.

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At least with CO we have someone attemping a more open and improved power/character creation system. That's more than you can say for CoX's current devs who ignore the problems and limitations of their system and are making little or no effort to improve it.


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One IO set per AT that enhances there primary function or a subset of that function might be nice.

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I say the opposite.

You design the IOs to shore up the weaker areas of the AT and make them more rounded.

Defenders would likely appreciate something to make them sturdier and better soloing.

Tankers don't really need better aggro tools or more defenses. Damage and offensive minded bonuses and perks would go further.

Scrappers already have solid defenses and damage. They would likely enjoy more utility and team-usefulness. Chances for debuffs and the like could benefit them.

ETC.


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Oh I see.... I thought my level 40 was soloing that even level mission 1 shotting all the minions and 2 shotting all the lt's but apparently I was in boomtown. My mistake. I should just ask J_B next time about my experiences playing the game and save myself the trouble of actually logging in and playing. I mean... why bother unless I'm 2 shotting Recluse himself. Anything less wouldn't be like the guys in the comics who can move mountains.

Also... I call BS on the this is an MMO problem. Did you ever happen to notice that Superman... in virtually every single game created using him... can still die if enough plain old bullets or rockets hit him? There are also several games I can remember playing where he can't just run over whatever you happen to feel like as the character playing him. I couldn't just walk straight through any building I felt like, I couldn't fly out into outer space, I couldn't play soccer with the moon.

It is impossible to accurately represent some superheroes in a video game. They are so powerful that whatever the person controlling the toon wanted would be possible and that is outside of the scope of any video game I've ever played. There have to be some rules to what a character in a game can and cannot do, so your conceptually having a "Super Hero" game is impossible in the way you want it, and has NEVER been done and can NEVER be until games get AI to the point where the game can alter itself based on the person playing so that even though you are ultimately powerful the game can still present challenges enough so that it doesn't get boring.

Unless of course you think it makes conceptual sense that my "invulnerable" super hero in the game can be killed by normal guys shooting guns... or that shotting giant balls of molten fire at simple powerless thugs on the street sometimes isn't enough to stop them.

If you are so unhappy with the game... please quit and stop trolling on the forums for people who clearly have such little interest in hearing your broken record opinions of the game that they mock you openly every single chance they can.

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What does any of that have to do with...

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But really, the complaint is not about 2 or 3-shotting minions so much as it is about 12 to 19-shotting Bosses.

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...?

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the game can still present challenges enough so that it doesn't get boring.


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Because long drawn out fights with Bosses and EBs isn't boring? Challenge through annoyance isn't good game design.



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I think an expansion on this idea is in order.

How about instead, AT-specific IO sets?



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One of the biggest issues with CoH from its inception was that the original "vision" was to realize a video game format of the 80s comic book popularity. The idea to use the MMO model was purely a business decision (recurring income).

The unfortunate part here was that at some point just before/after release, it was decided that since this was an MMO it should be "balanced" like other MMOs which I think was a very faulty choice. So what the original dev team took the screaming hordes of players' comments as "bugs" that needed to be addressed, really should have spearheaded a new direction for MMOs

*snip*

Hindsight being 20/20 n all.

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People dismiss that quote I often brandish, with Emmert saying essentially that Tankers were intended to represent the Hulks and Supermen of comics. They also ignore the later interviews where he claims he fought with some of the power guys over giving them more damage.

The but fact is, it was said.

As an example of what you highlight, Tankers as they are currently, in my opinion, are the result of the developers serving the demands of MMO minded players over serving the demands of people wanting the game to be a better super hero game period.

The devs put the emphasis in their their "super hero MMO" squarely on the third word in that phrase and catered to its conventions and considerations at the expense of serving the conventions and considerations of the first two words. And Heaven forbid they attempt all to serve all three words.

So is it any wonder years later which group of people are in the majority playing the game and which left? Or any wonder that it's really hard trying to sell Tanker changes on the basis of making them better represent super hero comic conventions to a group of players who only care about how good an MMO tank they are and can't accept an ideal that's not that?

Rhetorical questions, I assure you.

Striking a balance of which MMO and which super hero/comic book conventions to embrace can be tricky, but in the case of this game, in my opinion the balance point is so lopsided for a number of things that I would scarcely call it a 'balance' at all.



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One-shotting hazard spawns = Bad melee damage?

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I'm not impressed by what your level 50 does to minions in Boomtown.

But really, the complaint is not about 2 or 3-shotting minions so much as it is about 12 to 19-shotting Bosses.


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When all the other cars can only get up to 70-80 MPH, 108 is still very preferable.

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Those in question get debuffs and buffs that turn 70-80 MPH into 150-160 MPH.

The only one that doesn't just got his speed tweaked so now all of the time he can drive as fast as he only used to on nitro.


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having the slowest NASCAR car still means you have a damn fast car.

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If all the other racers are topping out at 180 MPH and all your car does is 108 MPH, that's not that impressive.

10-20MPH slower is one thing. Being 40% slower is another.


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He's intelligent enough

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He's intelligent to know Tankers could represent super strong invulnerable heavy hitters like himself better than they do now and still maintain balance if the devs would heed some of the suggestions for offensive tweaks and inherent power proposals floated around here instead of ignoring them and shafting Tankers with a role as weak hitting decoys.

Silver-age Supes would even invent no less than a dozen Tanker inherent proposals that would allow Tankers to be heavy hitters and maintain game balance. And the devs would ignore them too.


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Superman would be a tank if he played CoH

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Superman is not a Tanker on the grounds that he actually has offensive prowess.

He isn't the weakest hitting melee hero in the Justice League. He's considered their powerhouse because of his offensive might, not because he stands there yelling insults and clustering the villains around him so Green Lantern can pick them off with little effort.

He'd be insulted by Tankers if he played CoH. He'd spend fifteen minutes trying to damage Jurassik and then throw the keyboard down in disgust.


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So.... how IS the new TF? Is it fun?

How does it stack up compared to the ITF?

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My general opinion of the ITF is it's a fast pace joy to run with an end encounter that kind of ruins the expereince with an OP, bloated AV that relies on cheating and gimmickry to be "challenging" (in other words, needing a specific team make up).

On the Reichsman hero TF:

I found it an unremarkable, short and repetative experience to run that's made worse by an OP, bloated AV that relies on cheating and gimmickry to be "challenging".


SPOILERS. Do not read if you care.
Keep in mind this is subject to change as the devs have said they're reworking the TF based on feedback.



2 out of the four missions in it you're fighting in 5th base/cave maps, and we all know how much people love to hate those. Contast that with the ITF where all but one of the maps is 100% unique to the TF. Sure there's some new sights on this TF to see; bits bolted on stuff we've seen a thousand times.

The new time capsule for Hero 1 and Omega Team was supposed to be a centerpiece of the TF. Well, you don't have time to stop and see the sights when you team jumps though a portal and starts getting slaughtered while you're trying to get a look at the thing.

Almost right away they throw you up against a Nosferatu clone who'se every bit as annoying fight as the original. Note to devs: more AoE heals for AVs, please. Ghost Widow, Rommy and every other dark themed AV need a rappid fire self heal to bolster their already stupid regen.

The "respec team" of villains from the STF show up as the ones robbing City Hall, I assume crossing over with the villain version of this TF. It's always nice to see named, themed super villains who aren't bloated up to AV level like the signature characters.

Reichsman shows up in the second mission spouting about how he's unbeatable, just like any other villain you face in the game. The cheap shot is this time he's not blowing hot air and he two-shotted our Tanker. You're not intended to win that encounter, but you don't know that until you get a team wipe. I don't think you're ever told to run. He just shows up and grinds everyone to bits, with the exception of the ill troller who had the good sense to go invisible.

The third mission, I never got to see because of the bug that splits your team. Half were sent to the mission, the half I was on spawned in a YET ANOTHER 5th colum base that was mostly empty. As I understand it based on dialogue, you're SUPPOSED to spawn on the Axis Amerika map (as seen in the Portal missions) and rescue alternate dimensional counterparts of Statesman who are being used to supercharge Reichsman.

The last mission is, again, a 5th Column base with a throne room for Reichsman. You end up figthing him and several other AVs. Twice the team I was on failed to beat him beacuse he's either bugged, OP or a little of both.

Either way the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I can undersand it being unpolished and needing work being a beta and all, but the underlaying design just isn't fun in my opinion. Assuming everything is going to work as intended at some point, I'm just not into what it's intended to do. I can see past the bugs and lack of polish, and what I see is what ruins the TF for me, not the bugs.



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Probably not but a reduction to brute defenses would be the most likely outcome if blue side brutes are truly a threat to tankers. It may not be popular but the developers have a 5 year track record of balancing downward.

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And as I said before, that does nothing to help the issues Tankers have.

Two of the goals of the Dominator tweaks:

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Improve "feel" of low level play.
Increase Dominator vs. Controller viability

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They didn't accomplish this by nerfing Controllers. Nor did they improve Stalkers with the recent changes by nerfing down the rest of the melee ATs.

In the case of Brutes vs Tankers or Scrappers vs Tankers for that matter, balancing Brutes/Scrappers down doesn't make ANYONE feel better about playing Tankers or Brutes/Scrappers.


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Nothing ever done to this game will ever make you happier, J_B.


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The Invul tweaks made me much happier. It made me happier when I saw the devs start giving narrative reasons why the signature characters bloat into AVs for TFs, which is something I pushed for, even if they didn't get it quite right. Hurl getting a larger projectile made me happier. Fly getting a slight speed boost did as well, even though I think it pales to truly fast flight with a sonic boom that someone else is offering.

The devs have done lots of little things that made me happier, but the important items seem beyond them. The greatest thing that would make me happier at this point is for them to announce CoH 2.

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Tankers still have a very substantial role for the majority of this game--especially on non-optimised teams, where a decent (not even great) Tanker can allow a team to take on challenges that they would otherwise not be able to do.


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I shouldn't have to tell you why one AT being a crutch for 7 poor players to lean on is a bad thing. It's that mentality that leads to PLing and rampant MA farming. Tankers being tractors that everyone can get free rides on isn't something to be proud of.

Protecting your teammates is a fine role to have, provided it doesn't slip into the area I mentioned above. But Tankers should also have the offensive ability to fulfill their concept. Which brings me to my next point:

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It's where you start to say that concept is a factual issue that I (and so many others here) really take issue with what you say. It's a preferential issue, not factual, and a lot of us are fine with the concepts for our characters, just as we're fine with our roles.

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You look at the vast majority of interpretations of super heroes with powers like invulnerability and super strength in any medium, be it games, movies or comics, and tell me which ones aren't heavy hitters. And having mediocre damage over all and the lowest damage off all the melee ATs isn't being a heavy hitter. Few players would call Tankers as they are now heavy hitters. If at times, as I've suggested before, they could hit as hard as the big boys, that would be different.

I'm not the only one with this "preference". Many people would expect the guys with super powers like Tankers to be the big guns on the team. The lead designer admitted to this. The number one complaint about Tankers in the recent/ongoing Brute vs Tanker thread was their offense.

It's less a question of preference and more a question of not meeting reasonable expectations people have based on the genre and the genre as interpreted in the same and other media, including video games and PnP games.

And I call them "reasonable" expectations because I've posted several proposals to allow Tankers to be heavy hitters within the boundries of the game and balance that most people have SAID are quite reasonable. The only ones not being reasonable IMO are the devs for being unwilling to address or discuss the issue.


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And I stand behind the point that the quickest way to getting a shield reduction in Brutes is to keep yammering in the Tank section about how brutes are just as sturdy while doubling the damage.

*snip*

No, then what is he going do, he's going to "take a look at" Brutes, or haven't you paid attention to how he's dealt with balancing powers & ATs?


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Nerfing Brutes will not improve Tankers, make them more fun to play or fix their issues(mechanical, role, conceptual or otherwise).

It wouldn't make Brutes happier. I don't think it would make anyone else here any happier. I know it wouldn't make me any happier.



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Because the man already thinks tanks are too strong.

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'The man' in question doesn't know his Unus from his Uatu.


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I have 2 witnesses that can confirm I told them 3 days before "Going Rogue" was announced "You know what the next accouncement for CoX is, right? Switching sides." You should have seen their faces when I showed them the trailer 3 days later....lol!

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S'funny. Everyone else knew a full 9 months before that.

http://www.massively.com/2008/08/09/...cox-direction/


As for the graphics update, signs seem to point to 'yes'. BaBs all but admitted to it on Test the other night.



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