JeetKuneDo

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You're working off of pure assumption

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Err, not pure assumption, but some hypothesizing based on the track record of the company. He's got some bias, but he's not crazy. His interpretation is about as valid as anyone else's. Well, except for the "wait and see - it'll be all right" crowd. 'Wait and see' is fair advice, but it doesn't have the sterling success rate one might think. The devs are pretty darn good at responding to actual feedback, not thumb-twiddling.

Revolver has said his piece and moved on now. I'm sure we'll all see some new info next week.

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I'm just saying it's a bit difficult to reply with actual feedback that could be considered helpful when the feedback isn't based on factual knowledge. And posting an opinion based on past occurrences or based on likelihoods is like a right handed dart player tossing at the board with his left hand. Sure, he might get lucky, but the delivery is just too dependent on unknowns.

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To be fair, this was a thread started by a Dev on a message board. It is here for us to discuss the information the thread gave us. It's not really our fault there isn't much information. All we can talk about is what we were given.

I'm still looking forward to this and think it is a good thing. But the "permanant" part is worth discussing. Again...we can only talk about the part we know about. If we don't, there would be no reason for this thread to exist.

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I wont come and complain on the boards for a mistake I made demanding free months or demanding the devs shower me with respecs. I accept mistakes I make. We all do it. The test server is there to do our best to ensure we dont make a mistake.

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This makes me wonder about something. The Test server is there to help us avoid making power choices?

That seems to admit there is a need for a way avoid mistakes. Why would it be wrong to have this need fulfilled in a different way than the Test server? A trial period in-game would do the same thing.

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Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.

There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.

Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).

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This is how I am reading this. Please correct me if I'm off base :

Once you pick your Patron, you're locked into that Patron.

Now, each Patron has N powersets to choose from. Once you choose that powerset from your Patron, you're locked into that powerset.

Now, if the above two points are true, does that mean that individual powers within that powerset are Respec-able?

That's how I'm reading it but would love it clarified.

Thanks Posi.

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Good question. I don't think I know enough to panic yet.

There might be enough choices in each Patron set to give you respec options if you screw up. I'm hoping so.

I'm also hoping some of the choices are kinda idiot-proof. Like I would like a stealth power. Not much to debate about with a stealth power. I would know exactly what I was getting beforehand. (Would still be nice to have the option to repec into a different power from that Patron pool later just in case.)

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If it's a trial that unlocks it, then you pick, I think I'll do the trial and then copy my character to test and try each set.

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So you're going to make multiple copies to Test and play ten levels on each just to see if any of them are worth taking? Have fun.

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And don't forget to write a guide so the rest of us don't have to go through that.

Man...if you can't respec out of it...then I don't think I would risk it. Even a guide would be subjective. What one person thinks is great might suck for me.

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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.


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It would be nice if you could use it in fights to keep up with your team mates and pursue mobs, also when you are a meleeist.

Why should aerial combat be the exclusive domain of those with ranged attacks? Those with melee attacks wants to be able to use some kind of "combat flight" too...

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Which is why I wonder why you can't close to melee using "follow" with Hover on. It makes the power useless for Scrappers.

Mark me down as a voice requesting a flight increase to Hover at least. I used to 4 slot it. That was about all the speed I wanted....so I'm not too greedy. It crawls now...and kinda sucks a little.

I took it on my Scrapper too and discovered it is almost useless in combat since you don't close to melee distance when you use "follow" with Hover on. I'm not sure why this is. Seems kinda underpowered. It's slower than sprint AND won't close to melee? Wow...

Seems a waste that we have more slots to play with now...and we can't use them to play with in travel powers like we used to wish we could. (I wanted to put multiple slots in fly and Hover...but couldn't really spare them.)

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Powerleveling effects me because its widespread practice means that higher-level characters' players simply PRESUME that I want to powerlevel if I'm on a team with them unless told otherwise, and when I do say otherwise, they're surprised--or even insulted that I'd not want their "generousity" and wish to actually be USEFUL as a sidekick.

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Noted. But that doesn't seem any different than anything else that happens that I don't want to do. I get blind invites when I don't want them. I get tells when I don't want them. I get offers to be a "mid" when I don't want them. I get offers to be pwlvled when I don't want them. I'll have teams decide to do a task force when I don't want to do one.

Does that seem like a big deal? If a team I am on is doing missions or other things that I don't feel like doing at that time, I just politely excuse myself. I'm certainly not going to get upset that they won't play the way I want to play. As a matter of fact, an offer to be pwlvled is a person trying to be nice to you. Hard to get mad at someone for doing something generous. (And they are being generous...even if you don't like what they are offering you.)

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Benefit: Get rid of the insane train station lag. A lot of the people who are giving this version of the plan a thumbs-up would be the folks who, like me, get really frustrated when they need to take the train in Talos; not only is Talos a hub between most of the zones in the map but it's prime PLing turf for characters in their 20s PL'ing lower folks. The two factors in combination can often make trying to catch the train tantamount to swimming through mollasses. It's easy to see how some people--who absolutely hate that lag, aren't terribly fond of PL'ing in general, and don't tend to be on teams that often hunt split up could be in favor of this proposal.


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I have only encounters game crippling lag in one place...the Hami raid. I can't do that raid....just can't do it...I get DC'ed every time I try.

I have yet to encounter any significant lag at any train station. There is some...but I barely even notice it. I mean barely too. It's not as if I'm doing any fighting there...it's a safe spot.

Maybe it's different on other servers...but the lag at the trains on Champion just isn't there.

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Why do I keep dealing with these damn lawyers?

I never gave ANY evidence in that statement regarding ANY stance on how powerleveling affects YOU. THAT WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF MY POST!!!!!!!!!!! I gave plenty of arguments on how powerleveling affects you in OTHER posts, as I've been posting for quite a long time. If I had to repost every last argument I ever made, you'd have sixty pages of nothing but ME. This particular post simply describes the effect that powerleveling will have once removed. Which is none. Why powerleveling is bad is a completely different topic. This just states that as long as you CAN powerlevel, people WILL powerlevel.

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To which I had to ask....why is this much effort going into stopping something that doesn't matter?

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Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game.

[/ QUOTE ] So...I asked how that would improve the game for me. I'm still not seeing any benefit to a lack of PL'ers when I log on.

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Let's say a stranger dangles a $1000 dollar bill in your face.

Now he does it to twenty other people.

Most of you are going to beat him up and run off with the cash.

Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game. Want proof?

Take a look at many of the FPS games out there. Lots of them have map glitches that are easy to exploit. Notice how people continually exploit them? They don't STOP playing the game when the glitch gets fixed and they don't NOT buy a game just because it LACKS map glitches. But it never fails... the easier the glitch is to reproduce, the more people will take advantage of it.

Remove the glitch, you remove the incentive. But just because a map is patched, people aren't going to stop playing the game.

Remove the powerleveling methods, you remove the drive. But just because powerleveling is gone, people aren't going to be so quick to ditch the game itself. There's a lot more to this game than just powerleveling to 50.

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I'm still not seeing the effect on me. A person powerleveling to 50 effects me in what way? Someone exploiting a map glitch effects me how? Because it "bothers" me or I think they are playing "wrong"?

Remove all the powerleveling and the game gets better for me? How? Because the developers spent all that time getting rid of the nasty PL's instead of giving me something like the Flashback feature?

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Thing is, Liberty, many of these people never even gave the game a chance. Newbies, fresh level 1s who JUST got the game, have sent tells to me for powerleveling. Not even wanting to try the game is just sad. The devs give you all this content and all they want to do is blow through most of it. While that's fine that they do, they are going to get bored because they missed the good parts of the game. They are going to suck because they lack experience in the game. They are also going to become level 50 whiners asking for more content.

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Another one I haven't seen yet. Do pwlvlers become lvl 50 whiners asking for more content? Do they really? Every one I've met seems to be having a great time. They all seem to know their character inside and out too.

Is it "sad"? Probably...but again....so what? They are all supposed to play like I do or they are "wrong"?

This isn't like the stupid Hami farming I've seen in which the upcoming PvP is being directly tied to it and making it mandatory. I don't HAVE to pwlvl.

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Actually as a tank it will affect your gameplay when you start getting lowbies asking you constantly to come herd wolves or to help them powerlevel. It will happen when you hit the 40's and start hanging about in Peregrine Island. Blasters, Tanks, Scrappers are all cursed with lowbies they don't know sending them random tells asking to be pl'd.

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Heck...I get bombarded with tells for teams constantly too...no problem. I found out about /hide and haven't looked back. You gotta love it. Another one I never understood....people getting uptight about some letters appearing in their chat box? Wow....talk about picky. (I never really believed that one anyway...I think it is just looking for a reason to complain about other people playing the game "wrong".)

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All you're doing is powerleveling. You're saying right out that you split up to gain experience faster by taking advantage of the team bonus while killing lots of mobs. If you want to street hunt, bring only a team of four, not eight. But what you're saying is that you powerlevel a bit each and every day. This is the kind of thing that the devs are trying to stop. It's nice to gain lots of experience fast, but that IS powerleveling. Guess what? These changes were directed AT powerleveling.

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Wrong, powerlevelling is gaining exp at no risk to yourself. Having someone else do all the work while your character benefits, thats powerlevelling.

The Scooby Doo tactic is simply maximizing your teams exp gain / time. Its hardly a huge increase in levelling time, it simply gives everyone a good fight instead of 8 people going after one group and everyone maybe getting a shot in while the defenders and controllers who perfer debuffing and buffing or healing have nothing to do b/c no one is getting hurt.

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But...you are forgetting one important point. You are not playing the way some people think you should. That is not allowed, I'm afraid. You also might be leveling "too fast". Tsk, tsk...

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Why would you even bother with this? If you are going to be in two sperate groups on two seperate sides of PP then you ARE in effect two seperate teams. Seriously why not just hunt in the same group or near each other.

This is an extremely minor hit to gameplay well worth teh price of admission.


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Because spliting up or 'scooby doo'ing as some of us call it is faster xp. We do it all the time mainly in brickstown. It makes no sence for a team of 8 to be beating down the small street mob size. However 2 teams of 4 or 2 teams of 3, hunting on diffrent spots in brickstown can effectively double the amount of xp you get. I have done this sort of thing since week one of game with several teams, PP and in Brickstown are big for this at least with some of the people I team with. heck in PI I was on a team of 4, 2 tanks, me a scrapper and a PB we split up and each hunted in a diffrent part of the map, it makes for fast xp that adds up over time.


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All you're doing is powerleveling. You're saying right out that you split up to gain experience faster by taking advantage of the team bonus while killing lots of mobs. If you want to street hunt, bring only a team of four, not eight. But what you're saying is that you powerlevel a bit each and every day. This is the kind of thing that the devs are trying to stop. It's nice to gain lots of experience fast, but that IS powerleveling. Guess what? These changes were directed AT powerleveling.

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Omigod!!! Powerleveling! BURN the powerlevelers! Burn them! (Because they weigh the same as a duck)

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This is not necessarily true. This also causes lag issues at the trams. The Devs didnt' "just" decide to do this, they had data we don't that prompted them to do so.

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Lag? That's why we are going to have to put up with this crap? Because of "lag at the trams"? Oh good grief...

And I would love to see some data that explained to me how pwlvlers effect my gameplay. I got my Blaster to lvl 29 before I even heard the term "powerlvling". Guess where I heard it? That's right...on this board. From someone complaining about it. I didn't understand then and I don't understand now why it is important to anyone how fast someone else progresses through the game. The "fun police" seem to be intent on forcing everyone to have fun the "right way".

Thank god I have a Tanker to play... Good lord what a pain to be a support class with this "solution" to the fake problem.

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Who pressed the nerf button on that one? Was it the Powerlevelers? No?

Well that's good to hear since it makes absolutely no sense to me why they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that. I do believe it was the Devs that pressed the nerf button.

It's been said by others, I'll repeat it here: Powerlevelers have NO apreciable effect on our gaming experience- however what DOES have a definite quantifiable effect on our gaming experience is ham-handed, futile, vindictive crusades by the developers to stamp out what really is a minor annoyance, if it can be called that at all.

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Just what I was thinking. It's really the insanely loud group that gets riled up by seeing a low-level toon standing in a train station that "effects the game". We all have to suffer because of attempts to solve the "problem" that is a made-up problem.
And of course, every bad experience they have they instantly attribute to "those darn, stupid powerlevelers". A player doesn't know how to play well? He must be a pwlvler! Someone is rude to them? A pwlvler! (The pwlvlers I've met seem to know there stuff pretty well....and most of them are eager to help me and answer my questions too.)

Now...because they let trivial stuff like that bother them, we all have to put up with watching how far away from the action we are instead of having fun. Thanks guys...

Ok...I give up. I'm playing my Tanker from now on, and my next alt will be a Tanker or Scrapper as well. My poor controller will just have to sit on the self. I'm not interested in measuring how far I am from the battle and making sure I get one point of damage in. With the Tanker, I know I have it covered.

That's my solution.

All this because some are throwing a fit because some people are leveling "too fast" or "too easy". Good grief...

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I'm not opposed to players being able to make informed decisions. I'm opposed to "players who have invested their time and have obtained rewards legitimately" being treated as though they did something wrong.

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I don't consider it "wrong"...because I would like to do it myself. I cannot. Apparently my connection won't handle the Hami raid. So I'm left out in the cold while others can put in the "work" to gain an advantage over me. This effectively takes away the PvP option from me. I was looking forward to it...

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On a related note: Why oh why are people who invest minimum amounts of time in the game (or just suck at it)worried about competing in the arena against those who play for 8+ hours a day and are good at what they do? Putting a limit on Hami-Os in the arena is somewhat akin to communism. Oh look at the lazy and unfortunate. They should have the same as everyone else... No thanks, I prefer capitalism. You have the same opportunity as everyone else. Take advantage of it... or don't. Your choice.

If you are level 45+ and are worried about getting spanked in the arena, stop. You played the game this long without PvP. You can still enjoy it without PvP. Winning at PvP is not eveything. PvP is not everything... just a small new feature we are getting sometime in the future. If you want an absolutely level playing field for PvP, go play Half-life 2. That's what FPSs were made for. At least there, you can scream "cheater!" when someone creams you instead of "elitist!" or "fotm!" or whatever... Just so you know, I usually take someone calling me elitist as a compliment =P

If you are level 45+ and complaining about not having any Hami-Os, go get some. Now, I only play on Justice, so have no frame of reference for other servers, but all you have to do there is keep tabs on the Hamidon global channel and show up. If you want to participate, follow directions; if you want to be a lazy mooching bum, just sit there and watch. You'll get a Hami-O either way.

If you are level 44 or less and complaining about Hami-Os at all... GO. HUNT. KILL SKULS!

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I would love to "go get some" HO's...but I can't. I've tried it and only get kicked offline. The only thing I got out of it is a story to tell about the most epic lag I've ever seen!

As for PvP...good grief...I just thought I might TRY it. But certain defeat because I can't get HO's doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. I may have to just skip it. Too bad for me, I guess.

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now the 0 enhancement idea is the one for me that is the no brainer for people afraid of getting clobbered by the HO crowds. THis has to be the one idea that beats all proposed on the lets nerf everyone stronger than me point of view.

THen it's not about you min/maxing better than someone else. A person who doesn't know how to slot properly has just an even field to play w/ the people who know how to slot effectively. In essence this not only equalizes the uber leet players w/ fully decked out toons w/ HO's - AND - makes it so the geeks who run numbers can't just go and wail on the little weakling casual players who don't build their toons by forumulas.

This could even make a 2 class system. One free for all, no holds barred fighting w/ enhancements. The other can be , the ultimate handicap fighting class.

Both can easily have their own tournaments, and everyone can play in both tournaments or just one of the tournaments if they want.

And noone has to have their enhancements turned into something they aren't.

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LOL...nice sarcasm, dude! You managed to slip a lot of insults in toward those who don't have the HO's while you were at it.

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I see so much avoiding reality goign on here. I for one don't want to pvp w/ some casual joe who has no ho's. It would be absolutely no fun for me. I in fact am not that jazzed about pvp, i started the game w/out the expectation of pvp. BUt if they are going to add it. If a lvl 50 w/ lots of ho's has a battle w/ a lvl 42, all the ho's get reduced in magnatude to that of dual enhancement so's. Hence that person is no longer as uber as he would be fighting another lvl 50. Still though, the lvl 42 shouldn't have a reasonable expectation of beating someone who is 8 lvl's his senior. So the 50 still having an obvious advantage should be expected.

Now when it comes to fights at their own lvl's. Between 50's and 50's, w/ a rating system as to who's number 1 and who's number 1,345 - there won't be many players in that bottom layer w/ lots of ho's. SO all the players that dont want to participate in aspects of the game will have plenty of people to compete against that don't do raids as well.

If I an elitist player who feels that HO's are totally unfair and i'm ranked 1,234 i should know that taking on a rank 100 player might be a stupid idea. And no matter what no casual player should have an equal opportunity handed to him to be the #1 ranked pvp hero. Selling HO's to players who don't work for them is just that.

And will people stop reiterating the failed conclusion that they can cap HO's to a single attribute and cap the attribute buff to that of a SO....If i wanted an SO in that slot, i'd have something better than a lvl 50 in there, so right there i'd possibly have a disadvantage placed on me cus the other player has 51++ in all his slots while mine now has randomly selected attributes at 50. This idea is as thoughtless as any of my rants, please stop reinventing it in the same thread over and over again people.

The weight classes don't sound like to me like it's goign to be an all out unfair battle for all non hami'fied players. Once rankings start to sort themselves out the ho players and teams will filter to the top where they are pretty much in a class of their own and the non hamified players will beable to fight amongst themselves being able to clearly see where they stand rankwise as a contender.

If the #1 ranked player in his weight class has all HO's, isn't that going to be obvious before a challenge is issued?

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This sounds like what everyone is fearing. PvP will not be about who is the "better" player...or who has superior tactics....or even who got lucky...it will boil down to whether or not you have HO's or not.

Whoo Hoo! PvP is getting less interesting the more I find out about HO's. (Which I didn't know about until this week...)

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You'll note that some players have asked for such tools -- the option of HO-free matches or some way to see who has slotted how many HOs.

Oddly enough this doesn't seem popular with the pro-HO crowd.

Shall we venture a guess as to why...

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Excellent question. I'll be looking to see if anyone answers it as I plow through this thread.

So...why are the HO users not in favor of having the ability to see other player's enhancements? You don't have to think about it very long, do you?

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They'd lose the extra bonus of hte HO, but not the dual-slotting advantage.


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The amount of advantage that gives is pure speculation at this point and means nothing.

In fact Statesman who is the only one to post in this thread, that has anything like real experance with the system, said that the advantage of HO's when exmp'ed down isn't major.

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It's not major to have 12 slots on a power instead of 6? Sign me up anyway...

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They'd lose the extra bonus of hte HO, but not the dual-slotting advantage.


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The amount of advantage that gives is pure speculation at this point and means nothing.

In fact Statesman who is the only one to post in this thread, that has anything like real experance with the system, said that the advantage of HO's when exmp'ed down isn't major.

It's not major to have 12 slots on a power instead of 6? Sign me up anyway...

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You know, I was going to try to come up with something to offset the negativity and insecurity, here... but I give up. Youve all beaten this horse quite thorougly to death.

Im sorry your not getting everything you want. I hope you manage to have fun despite the fact that some people may have better builds, toons, inspirations, enhancements, tactics, strategies, anything that would in any fashion disadvantage you, no matter how they got it.

The other plus side? If ever you loose, no doubt it was because your foe had HOs, and you did not, or had less of them, or didnt have the right types.

Children.

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This is kinda funny to read. We are talking about a group of people who pretend to be super-powered beings while playing an online game. I think it goes without saying that we are all "children".

Give me a way to aquire HO's and I will get them. I just resent having this new cool PvP coming and finding out that I probably won't be able to compete in it. Fat lot of good it does me. Does it make me a "child" because I'm not going to enjoy being hammered down because my enhancements are "only" SO's?