IzzySoft
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Posts
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Joined
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After not playing Kinetic Melee for a long time, i rolled a brute and saw how fun it could be. All throughout the sewers trial, i was soooooo happy that i didnt roll a Titan weapons toon. They be complaining too much about their Momentum!
Then I started to think maybe we need another fun and fast paced powerset. This is what i think could be fun.
Tier 1 power:
Name: Bell Ringer
Damage: Single Target, Moderate Lethal
Effect: -Defense DeBuff, Mag. 0.8 Disorient
Animation: 2 handed. Chain hits head. One hand on one end of chain (hip height), other at half the chains length, hip height. About half of the chain is hanging from the other hand. A single fast twirl toward the targets cranium, while the hand (with half the chain hanging) moves away from body and towards target, in an overhead swoop.
Tier 2 power:
Name: Dirt Bath
Damage: Single Target, Close Ranged, Heavy Lethal DoT
Effect: Mag. 2 KnockDown, Mag. 0.8 Immobilize
Animation: 1 Handed. Chain around ankles. Starts like a regular Whipping animation, chain goes around targets ankles, Ends with a section of the chain breaking off (stays on target) as you pull the chain back. Target is immobilized, with a moderate to good chance to knockdown.
Tier 3 power:
Name: Rattle Jaw
Damage: Single Target, High Smashing
Effect: Mag. 2 KnockUp/KnockDown
Animation: 2 handed. Chain hits jaw. One hand on one end (hip height), other at half the chains length (hip height). About half of the chain is hanging from the other hand. A single fast to moderate twirl toward the targets jaw, while the hand (with half the chain hanging) moves away from body and towards target, but not an overhead swoop, under, with a good chance to knockup.
Tier 4 power:
Name: Tension
Damage: n/a
Effect: +ToHit, +Dmg
Animation: 2 handed. Both Hands hold up the chain slightly (hip height). Checking to see how Strong the chain is by tugging on it. Chain can have a build up glow.
Tier 5 power:
Name: Choker
Damage: Single Target, Close Ranged, Heavy Lethal DoT
Effect: Mag. 2 Hold, -Resistance DeBuff
Animation: 1 handed. Chain around Neck. Starts like a regular Whipping animation, chain goes around targets neck, Ends with a section of the chain breaking off (stays on target) as you pull the chain back. Target tries to remove chain. A moderate to good chance to hold.
Tier 6 power:
Name: Taunt/Provoke
Damage: Targeted AoE/Single Target Taunt
Effect: Mag. 41 Taunt/Mag. 23 Taunt
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain above head. One hand on one end (hip height), other above head. About Half of the chain is being twirled.
Either that, or the 2nd hand is also at hip height and just twirling half a chain on the side of the body. Chain can be twirled at a very slow pace, in a provoking manner, with the hand moving slightly in a circular motion (hand follows the chain in its rotation a bit) to make it seem like thats whats causing the chain to sustain such a slow rotation without falling limp. (this animation might be too hard to implement though)
That, or just a regular taunt hand motion from the hand thats not twirling the chain (holding the chain still).
Tier 7 power:
Name: Whirly Bird
Damage: PBAoE, Moderate Smashing
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockDown, Mag. 0.6 Disorient
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain above head. Enemies hit in head will be seeing birds! One hand on one end, other swings half a chain above head once. Hits max of 16 targets in the PBAoE, with a moderate chance to knockdown. Or... 2 hands on chain end (2 to 3 links showing below hands), and both hands twirl chain above head once.
Tier 8 power:
Name: ... any suggestions? (maybe Haze
diminished visibility)
Damage: Close Cone (Arc: 130), Moderate Smashing
Effect: -ToHit DeBuff, Mag. 0.6 Disorient
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain in a cone! One hand on one end, other swings half a chain once in a cone. Hits max of 8 targets. A violent burs of wind from the Swing picks up debris and directs it at the enemies eyes, making it harder for them to see. (similar momentum of a baseball pitcher winding up and launching a ball)
Tier 9 power:
Name: Crack Jaw
Damage: Single Target, Superior Smashing
Effect: Mag. 2 KnockUp/KnockDown, Mag. 0.6 Disorient
Animation: Just like Rattle Jaw, but with a slightly slower animation? Chain can be twirled slow on 1st rotation, then on 2nd rotation fast, then on 3rd attacks?
Please post power Name suggestions, and alternate animations!
Please try not to use 'Chain' in the powers name, only because of the alternate looks Chain Link might get later.
Also, post any alternate looks you can think of for Chain Link. Ahhh.. like:
- Leather whip laced with metal ball-bearings.
- Spiked Ball at start of the chain.
- Flaming chain link. (Ummm... kinda close but not like Ghost Rider's???)
- Larger chain links with Saw like Teeth!
etc..
*please note: There is no Extreme Damage Attack because it needs to stay fast paced, very fluid in its animation and casting. Has to be fun to look at / and play, even at the cost of a tiny bit less damage! Plus, we have -Defense DeBuff, -Resistance DeBuff. Anyways, Damage alone doesnt make a powerset fun, its the mitigation! It would just suck if there was no knockdown!
Thanks,
D-Man! -
When I think of Damage types and Mitigation, i normally picture it close to something like this:
My impression is, if a powerset lacks Mitigation, Damage is increased for that powerset???
There are exceptions to the rule, Fire Damage being one, but i bet we can get a nice chart of Types of Damage enemies are most vulnerable to.. and take that into account!
I'm not very savvy at this.. but i kinda lump a whole bunch of things into Mitigation like:
- Stun / Disorient / Hold
- Knock_Down/Up/Back
- Speed / Recharge / ToHit / Endurance / Damage Debuff
- Defense / Resistance DeBuff -
Quote:Is it like this? (recharge+cast)Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Lets try a different tack. A few years ago, one of the devs decided to speed up Claws to make it look more like its original conceptualization of a light and fast set. So they made some animation changes that sped up the Claws powers by an average of about 9% or so.
Take a guess how much that increased Claws damage. Almost 50%. That small change, but buffing the right powers in the right way, created the ability to create all new much denser attack chains, and the set's damage literally exploded.
The metric you have in mind, something that would assign to each individual power a singular value for its strength, doesn't work in the general case because no power is worth anything alone, and even moderate changes to a set of powers in just the right way can magnify in counter-intuitive ways. In fact, just by coincidence I created a metric that would measure an entire set's damage potential around that time, and it predicted that Claws would increase its damage output by more than 40%. But that metric itself isn't perfect: it gets it right *most* of the time, but there are corner cases that it fails on. In fact, its probably mathematically provable that *no* metric other than brute force is guaranteed to be able to tell what the net total offense of a set of powers is, because - for the mathematically inclined - it sounds to me like its congruent to a variation of the knapsack problem.
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Quote:> If that's the case and you make brutes that strong without taking Fury into account, when you add Fury after the fact your max damage changes from 1200 to 3000, with Fury increasing it's damage by 150% and blowing scrappers and stalkers out of the water.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yes, there is, but you are DRASTICALLY oversimplifying it.
The max damage a power will do is determined by
A) The tier at which it appears in the set. SO you're not going to see KO Blow as a tier 1 power for example.
B) Any secondary effect the power may have. As a general rule, the more powerful the secondary effect, the less damage the power will do. That's not always true, but it is more often than not.
C) The AT using the power. This will affect both the base damage of the power and it's maximum potential.
My point earlier was that you absolutely HAVE to take Fulcrum Shift, Criticals, Fury, Defiance, Scourge, and Containment into account when you are designing a power. You can't design the power and then look at what those things do to it afterward. If you design a power without taking those abilities into account, there is a very good chance the power will end up too strong when buffed by those abilities.
Example: Say you design a blast set for Defenders that will be shared with Corruptors. You could add a very high damaging attack in the later tiers, but you have to look at what will happen when you add Scourge damage to it. If the attack is too powerful for a defender, it will be WAY too powerful when Scourge doubles it's damage.
Your Max Damage table you posted earlier makes a critical mistake. You put Brute max value at 1200 without Fury. I assume that means that is the max damage a power will do?
If that's the case and you make brutes that strong without taking Fury into account, when you add Fury after the fact your max damage changes from 1200 to 3000, with Fury increasing it's damage by 150% and blowing scrappers and stalkers out of the water. Criticals will not have the same effect of more than doubling the damage output at all times because their bonus is not reliable enough. It averages out to a 10% increase over a long enough period of time. So the assumption that because stalkers and scrappers have criticals it evens out is just plain wrong.
Now, if you want it to be balanced where it is just below scrappers and stalkers, you have to consider the effect Fury will have before you set an arbitrary amount. Setting the max value at 500 will have a net effect of the total damage ending up at 1250, which is close to the same amount you had, and takes Fury into account.
I'm not trying to bash you or your idea just for the sake of bashing. I firmly believe that if you are unable or unwilling to consider all the various things that could affect the balance of what you're trying to do, then you have no business trying to design it in the first place.
I have had a few power set and AT ideas myself. The most I do is "wouldn't this idea be cool?" rather than trying to design everything from the ground up myself. That's because I am very well aware that I am not qualified to be trying to balance a new AT in the context of this game. A power set is easier, but there's still a lot of stuff you have to consider doing that.
Yea, i see! But you are not seeing the big picture now! Brutes Fury will need to be significantly decreased! Base Damage Increased! Why? Well, so much Fury was great when Brutes were just on Red Side. Now that Tanks can go red side, brutes can go blue side, brutes arent getting nearly enough Fury like they would before, because Tanks are doing what they normally do, and thats hogging most of the Aggro. Hehe, i was in a team recently and the Tank was starting to feel really bad for the brute (the brute wasnt doing nearly enough Dmg and was getting upset), then the tank just stood back and was telling the brute to aggro the grp 1st, just for a minute, then the tank would jump in! Hehehehehehehe! I had a nice long chuckle!
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Quote:> But they are certainly not all close to each other in damage output.Originally Posted by Hopeling
Most sets (there are exceptions) are pretty well-balanced overall, in that they have pros and cons compared to other sets. But they are certainly not all close to each other in damage output.
Hmm.. Got an example powerset?
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Quote:Well, we can guess, say Katanna, by looking at the powers that if an Attack power has a -Def or -Res DeBuff it would lower the Maximum damage, for that powerset. Or perhaps Parry ,which has +Def Buff?? If we used this same logic, couldnt we determine the Maximum Value the Whole set would be for Damage output? I have a sneaking suspicion the Devs didnt want to have one Attack Set be overpowered, right? And it doesnt make sense to underpower it, or no one would play that Attack Set, right? So.. whats left is... they are Very Close to each other in Damage Output! Deduction! If thats the Case, they are evenly matched in SOME Way or Another! Weather its a bunch of -Def DeBuff or -Res, there is some logic to this madness, right? If we had Mace powerset Meld with the Katanna powerset, Maces Maximum Damage output would be less, but just enough to allow for that One or Two Katanna powers with -Def. Yes?!? Why not approach it that way!?Originally Posted by Hopeling
I suspect "value" in the line you quoted is used in the qualitative sense, not that there's an actual spreadsheet somewhere on a dev's hard drive with a numerical Value score for every attack. In fact, based on the very line you quoted, such a spreadsheet would be impossible, because you can't judge a power's worth (and thus assign it a Value) in a vacuum, you have to also consider the powers it is combined with.
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Quote:> ...in this game the value of an attack is strongly determined by the rest of the attacks you have.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a pretty big hand-wave. The original designers of the game made a similar hand-wave, and as a result attacks they thought were reasonably well balanced against each other were actually wildly different. And even the players initially fell into the same trap of evaluating attacks in isolation, based primarily on their damage. See really old powerset guides for examples.
As it turns out the effectiveness of an attack is based primarily on two factors: its damage over its total recharge cycle (DPS), and its damage per activation-second during its casting (DPA). When you do not have enough attacks to make a full attack chain, net overall effectiveness is dominated by DPS. But as attack chains become full, net overall effectiveness becomes dominated by DPA, because attacks that can deliver more damage within shorter activation times become more valuable when you have more than enough attacks to attack continuously.
What's more this is separated by single target attacks and AoEs, and also by a difficult to compute metric of efficiency that determines the degree to which a set of attacks can be packed together to make a completely full attack chain.
In other words, in this game the value of an attack is strongly determined by the rest of the attacks you have. An attack that deals 500 points of damage in one second is a really good attack, but in an otherwise slow powerset its just flashy. A set full of such attacks would be game-breakingly overpowered. That's actually somewhat unique to City of Heroes, and gives our combat a unique feel. It also makes min/maxing more complicated here than elsewhere, and makes the notion of valuing individual attacks by points extremely complicated.
And this is just attacks. When we get to mitigation, we get to an entirely different set of challenges that are actually even more difficult. All because of the way mitigation stacks in City of Heroes.
Aha!! If these Attacks have a special Value assigned to them, why can that be used to balance out the Attack Chain, from new Attacks from an adjacent powerset????!!!!
So.. Devs dont want you to go over a certain DPS??? Can we simplify that to say DPS for 10 seconds! just so i can better grasp it! What would be the most DPS output for 10 seconds? Ahhh wait, thats not possible for some Attack sets!?!? is it!?? Hehe.. Well, thats another thing i find faulty with some of the attack sets. Katanna for instance. Theres No Way In Hell i would play/stay on a 50 Katanna for so long! What if i need to be Exemped for Posi, Synapse, Syster Psy!??? Weak Weak Weak! At least Axe and Mace do a better job at balancing the Damage across its powersets! If other attack sets were more balanced throughout its career, we wouldnt be having this discussion! And if they were Alrady balanced throughout their carrer, there wouldnt be a Need to Meld/Borrow Attacks from other sibling sets just to Even out the damage across that ATs career! The One Benefit of having this AT is to allow us to Fix Existing damage imbalances throughout a sets career!
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Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This statement right here demonstrates, to me at least, how little you actually know about how the game works in general.
Stalkers are only dangerous to those who are inexperienced or just plain bad at PvP. A good player runs circles around them.
You keep coming up with ways to make your pet project work, while completely ignoring how the game actually functions.
You ignore things like Fury and Criticals. That's especially telling when you look at your Max Damage values a few posts up. You put brutes at 1,200 without Fury, only 100 points out of the top damaging spot. You're completely ignoring the fact that without Fury a brute does less damage than a tank. And you have tanks coming in last.
You ignore the benefits of Fulcrum Shift, when it absolutely has to be taken into consideration. I guarantee that when the devs balance new powersets, one of the things they look at is the damage that a set will do when fully buffed by Fulcrum Shift, just to make sure it won't deal more damage than they want to allow. You can't just completely discount things like that when you're designing something brand new.
The powers exist, and they WILL be applied to this monstrosity you're pushing at some point or another. Ignoring those powers WILL lead to brokenness when you apply them to something that was balanced without them in mind.
Another note about your max damage table: "Dominators (held targets take more damage)". Ummm, no. Controllers get that benefit, not Dominators. If you don't know that simple fact, what makes you think you have any business telling people how a new AT should be balanced?
> Another note about your max damage table: "Dominators (held targets take more damage)". Ummm, no. Controllers get that benefit, not Dominators.
Sorry! I havent leveled a Dominator past level 10. Its just an Odd AT for me! Yea yea I remeber now, there was an inherent White like Build Up button that empowers them so targets take more dame (while held is increased)! Different mechanics to reach the same thing as trollers! At least thats how i've perceived it!
> ...just to make sure it won't deal more damage than they want to allow.
Sooo... there IS an existing Peak/MAX Value limit?
Great, now... All i wanted to do was START 1st with the Plateau/Min Value limit. Of couse Fulcrum Shift and Fury and Criticals play a part.. just not in the Min. Dont Skip Ahead, why are you trying to over-complicate things?! Maybe you just want to use that tactic to debunk it!? When you build a Boat, do you work on the Frame or on the nice Seat Cushions 1st? -
Quote:> The simple addition of Rage to powers that were not designed with it in mind is going to break things horribly.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's funny, I haven't felt underpowered on my Street Justice characters at all.
I know it burns a lot of endurance, and I also understand WHY it does. The powers don't cost more endurance than other sets, it's just an extremely FAST set, so you're firing off more powers in the same amount of time as other sets. The set that is closest in terms of speed is Claws, and Claws gets an endurance discount as part of the special features of the set. Street Justice gets it's combo system, so it's not going to get an endurance discount as well.
I still don't think your hybrid AT idea is going to fly. It is HIGHLY unlikely that the devs are going to be willing to sit down and rebalance every single offensive power in the game to take into account Every. Single. Possible. Combination.
Because that's exactly what they would have to do. They would have to take all of the hundreds of available combinations that would arise if you combined 2 powersets into account when balancing the powers for this hybrid AT.
By comparison, when they design a completely NEW powersset, they only have to take into account 9 powers and 4 ATs at MOST. They don't take secondaries into account very often, if they did certain primary and secondary combinations would not be so much more powerful than others.
You're asking them to balance hundreds of powers in every possible permutation of power combinations that can occur when you smash 2 sets together. And then you're asking them to take all that balancing and shoehorn it ino a completey new AT with entirely new mechanics. All so people can create incredibly overpowered or incredibly gimped characters.
The game worked very much like that in beta. It doesn't work like that now, and hasn't since the early stages of Alpha testing. There's a good reason for that, and you seem completely unwilling to accept that there is a good reason for the game to work like it does.
If you're really that gung-ho about it, do the work yourself. Balance every single power in the game in every single combination that would exist.
The simple addition of Rage to powers that were not designed with it in mind is going to break things horribly. Did you realize that all the attacks in Super Strength deal less base damage than attacks in other sets, because the entire set is designed around Rage being consistently used? Now add Rage to the attacks in say, Fire Melee without adjusting their base damage and see what happens. Voila, instant overpowered character.
You know what else that means? You would have to have 2 different base damage values for every power that is NOT in Super Strength to make sure things are balanced when you combine them. The simple fact that Rage exists, and is easily made permanent (and is stackable) breaks things in bad ways when you start thinking about adding it to other powersets.
I notice that you don't want people mentioning Fulcrum Shift or Criticals or Fury. That's ridiculous. You HAVE to take those powers into account when you balance things. Much like Rage, the fact that they exist means you have to look at what will happen when you combine every power you can combine with it.
Example: Why do you think Fulcrum Shift s only available on relatively low damage ATs with low damage caps? Because it would be broken to give that power to brutes with their 675% damage cap. A Defender deals about the same damage as a brute before you add Fury, and their damage cap is only 300%. Give the ability to hit a higher damage cap with no outside help, with higher base damage to a hybrid AT that you can cherry pick powers on, and you have the potential for some of the most broken things ever seen in the game.
When you design things like this, you can't just ignore things like Criticals, Fury, and Fulcrum Shift. If you a\balance things while ignoring them, bad things will happen when you add them.
Honestly, I'm not too worried about it though. The devs would have to be pants-on-head imbeciles to implement your idea. And fortunately, they aren't.
Its obvious to me you either Didnt Read the previous posts.. or.. Just Dont Care to!
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Quote:Originally Posted by Katie V
Best attacks under current game mechanics:
1 - Fulcrum-Shifted Critical Crushing Uppercut as a combo finisher: 2,230 damage.
2 - Fulcrum-Shifted Assassin's Strike: 1,945 damage.
3 - Double-FS Energy Transfer (fury is irrelevant once you stack enough FS boosts): 1,472 damage.
4 - Fulcrum-Shifted Total Focus: 990 damage.
5 - Fulcrum-Shifted Total Focus: 904 damage (Dominators don't get Containment).
6 - Fulcrum-Shifted Energy Transfer: 812 damage.
1 - Fulcrum-Shifted Inferno: 2,360 damage to each of 16 targets.
2 - Fulcrum-Shifted Blizzard with 50% Scourge rate: 3,000 damage to each of 16 targets.
3 - Fulcrum-Shifted Blizzard: 2,000 damage to each of 16 targets.
There are three numbers that need to be considered when looking at how damaging a power is: the damage done, the power's recharge time, and the power's animation time. When considering a power in isolation, the recharge time and damage done dominate, but when considering a group of powers, the animation time becomes more important than the recharge time. By limiting the maximum damage that single attacks can do, your restrictions will impact slow-animating, heavy damage powers (such as Energy Melee) much harder than fast-animating, low-damage powers (such as Katana or Claws).
It seems to me that you should probably re-visit your idea after you've gotten a good idea of how the current game mechanics work.
>Best attacks under current game mechanics:
> 1 - ... Crushing Uppercut ...
No Wonder i always felt underpowered on my Steet Justice toon! Most of the Dmg Is Backloaded into One Power! I've tried leveling up 5 toon already, all too lvl 30 and deleting them to start all over again! I even rolled a Street Justice/Shield scrapper... and Still it didnt feel as if I was really making a difference! Why just lvl 30? Because, I run lower lvl TFs too! 25+5 = 30. Actually i normally use Synapse as a gauge to see if a powerset is viable for being Exemped (20+5=25), but I was going to let that slide for Street Justice and go a TF higher, and use Sister Psyche TF instead. I was, err Still am, Not Happy! Worst yet.. For the lack of Dmg it does, it seems to gobble Soooo much endurance, and still not Kill fast enough. Thats not very balanced!
I've asked many players, lvl 24+ usually (in case they respec'ed), what they thought of StJ, and EVERY ONE says the same thing! End Hog. Dont bother taking it if you dont have Endurance Recovery in your Defense! :O
I was shocked! How can that be!? They must be wrong! I doubted them.. Until.. i tried it myself!
> There are three numbers that need to be considered when looking at how damaging a power is: the damage done, the power's recharge time, and the power's animation time.
Yes, if you actually READ all the previous posts, you would have SEEN recharge time mentioned once or twice!
I lump Animation time into Recharge time for discussions purposes.
Yes, Recharge time would affect the Damage output.
> It seems to me that you should probably re-visit your idea after you've gotten a good idea of how the current game mechanics work.
I admit I'm NOT on the Coding Team at Paragon Studios.. so I dont have the BEST knowledge of the Game Mechanics, but I'm fairly confident my rudimentary knowledge will suffice for the time being, till someone steps forward, a volunteer, who can crunch the numbers. I hated Accounting, Still Do! I like Drawing More!
Plus, current Game Mechanics wouldnt be used in an AT like this! Newer, Better, Faster, 6 Million Dollar game mechanics would! (PS. u wont get that if you didnt watch TV Shows growing up. Ehhh, I Feel OLD! )
And Plz Don't mention Fulcrum Shift or Criticals or Fury. Those are the Peak of Dmg. Lets 1st figure out where the plateau is, then we will see about the Peak!
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The problem is determining which AT should have what Max Value limit.
For Damage: (highest to lower)
-Melee Sets. AT's that use it, and the guesstimate for Max Value limit:
1- Scrappers = 1,300 Max Dmg Value limit (w/ no Crit.)
2- Stalkers = 1,300 Max Dmg Value limit (w/ no Crit.)
3- Brutes = 1,200 ... (w/ no Fury)
4- Blasters = 1,200 ...
5- Dominators = 1,100 - 1200 ... (held targets take more Dmg)
6- Tanks = 900 - 1100 ... (lowest, but they get Great Defense)
(even though Blasters have no defense, sadly they dont always have the best Melee Dmg output, but they do have ranged to add to their Dmg output)
-Blast Sets. ATs that use it:
1- Blasters = 800 - 1000 (melee adds to Dmg output)
2- Corruptors = 800 - 1000 (Buffs/Debuffs adds to their Survivability/Dmg/Etc..)
3- Defenders = 800 - 1000 (Buffs/Debuffs adds to their Survivability/Dmg/Etc..)
No... we cant have Ranged be too powerful. Thats just wrong. Just like allowing a Stalker into a PvP zone!
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Quote:hrmmhh *mumbles*. That's probably spot on!Originally Posted by Commando
SOLDIERS OF ARACHNOS and all the combinations they have available to them, i.e. a Psy blaster with Claws attack powers, SR type defenses, all team toggle buffs, etc.
KHELDIANS -- The Hybrids of mediocre repertoire of abilities. Soldiers of Arachnos are thankful that Kheldians came first. It would have been awful for them to turn out as crappy or mediocre as Kheldians did.
> That's more in line with what I think.
Well, it wasnt MEANT to be like that!.. for Kheldians that is. But thats what players wanted!
You never know, VEATs could go through the same thing if players get more powers in them.
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Quote:I know it wont happen, but... if they ever Gimp VEAT's, I'll be like BRUAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHA'ring right Back!Originally Posted by Airhammer
What ???? ROFL !!!! BRUAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Heroes Always Prevail!
Or at least They Should!
Ohhh.. it just dawned on me.. that maybe other players were jealous of the Visual and Sound Fx of the PB, and they just didnt know how to make them less appealing, so they just nerfed their abilities initially? Possible!
I think Tanks would initially have the most envy... since the Lobster forms Visual/Sound Fx is very cool. I see that SuperStrengs FootStomp SoundFx was enhanced now... but thats just probably becuase its also the same powerset that Statesman has.. so that might not prove my Visual/Sound Fx envy angle!
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Quote:I see. So pick and Choose is out the window! I really didnt like that idea to start with!Originally Posted by Airhammer
Agreed
Being a very experienced Hero System PnP player ( since the first editions almost 20 years ago ), This would be impossible to implement in the current system and even if you made a new system from scratch it would be very easy to be overpowered or totally gimped..
Just like TheBruteSquad noted before: Players HATE being Locked into picking certain powers only!
Players should be allowed to pick Any Power from a cousin powerset, just Gimp the Effect if, and only If, they reach the Max Value limit. See example for Ice Shield + Steamy Mist above.* -
Quote:> .. kind of like the HERO system aka Champions PnP.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What you mean is a points-based ability purchase system, kind of like the HERO system aka Champions PnP.
This would be *incredibly difficult* to do with the current powers system. It would be easier to do for NPCs because you can err on the side of caution when it comes to building NPC ability. The Architect custom critter system works on a very simplified version of such a system.
But to do this on the player side would require so much limiters and cut-offs you'd just be fielding complaint after complaint about why this power costs this much when it should cost that much, from people who were just wildly guessing. Unless your system was anchored in bedrock, it would be a huge mess to deal with.
I say that as someone who's thought through the entire process from beginning to end, without skipping any steps, with real numbers. Its not impossible, but with our system you either hit the bullseye, or you end up completely broken. There's no middle ground.
Honestly, i only play CoH! I tried DCUO briefly, but it feels like you're a vaporous cloud! It doesnt ground you much! I did like the audio commentaries, but HATED the 12 GB it took up on my hard drive! >
In CoH.. if anything, those Rectangular Boxes with Text, (you see them show up in the Sewer Trial), can have a Static Picture of the NPC thats saying something, accompany the text. left-hand side or right.. doesnt matter!
> Unless your system was anchored in bedrock, it would be a huge mess to deal with.
Let the Devs figure it out! Thats not your job! Our job is to have fun! Let them earn their paychecks! (hehe.. not like they dont already) They created a whole system without us in the 1st place! Have some faith!
> Its not impossible, ...! There's no middle ground.
Well, theres always room for improvement! PB's were awesome from the start, but players were too jealous of them. So, they were nerfed! Not because they werent good to start with, other players felt inadequate!
I get it! Thats why this Mixed Breed AT wont make other players feel inadequate. it just slightly does things better, IF, and only IF, the player knows what he/she is doing!
This isnt STAPLES! Just becuase u have a certain AT doesnt mean you'll be Ubber! No EASY button 4 u!
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Quote:See, once you place IO Sets into a PB, you dont need to keep the enemy away from you as much, since your defense is much better. But you cannot slot for -KB into powers that have +KB!Originally Posted by BrandX
Yeah, while I don't want AT/Powersets to change to KD, I fully admit it's the KB that keeps me not liking to play PBs. :/
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Quote:I did!Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
You should seriously try the "new" PB. Perma lightform across all forms, Perma Essence boost, excellent melee damage, quicker Photons etc... Its a whole new ballgame these days. And was not really sure what those previous posters were talking about, so i didnt say too much!
I still wish there wasnt as much KnockBack though.. in Human form!
If I could I'd allow players to Slot KnockBack enhancements.. and Only Then would it Knock Back.. otherwise.. if there were no KnockBack Enhancements in there, it would just KnockDown.. well, for the Humanform Footstomp at least.
I love Energy Blast, one of my very 1st Blasters! I still get the chills when i remember playing on him! It felt like i was on a roller coaster, waves of excitement would overcome me as I tried to blast the enemies before they could get me! And the visuals and sound Fx made me feel like i was in an actual CGI movie! (Fx, visual or sound, make it a greater experience) And PB's shine in that arena! Some great Fx went into that AT and i still love it for that!
I wont get into some of the powers that I just hate, as far as visual Fx... (ehem.. Sonic Shield.. with its super thick Audio Wave)
I actually had to quit a Synapse once because of a player w/ a Bright White Sonic Shield. Every time I'm just about to jump into an enemy group, i scope out the distant foes to assess the difficulty of there being an adjacent enemy grp close by. And as im looking for the boss in the group, (still looking at a distance, eyes focus for distance changes.. even in a game.) and WHAM.. all of a Sudden theres a Bright White Sonic Wall, i mean Shield, that gets in the way and my Vision is all out of Whack. (As you might or might not know, its very bad to instantly change focus from far to near, etc..) And as I struggle to get some focus back, a Sharp Pain in the back of my eye just hits, like a Dull Needle sticking me! Let me tell you, its not that Pleasant! Its worse than getting a Root canal!
There should be a Slogan for Sonic Shield: "Its GOOD for you, but Painful!"
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Quote:> But FFG + Empathy heals would be even more powerful...Originally Posted by Hopeling
You're misreading that quote. FFG + Ice shields wasn't the combo TheBruteSquad was pointing to as OP, after all, he only called it 'nice'. But FFG + Empathy heals would be even more powerful, and doesn't even run into the max limit you've proposed.
An idea like this can, in principle, be balanced. But you cannot just tack it onto an existing system and expect everything to work out. You're talking about an incredibly huge revamp, and it doesn't even do anything for existing characters, only new characters using the new AT. If the devs are going to spend a year or more of development on something, I would rather not have to delete characters to use it.
Good question. It's your suggestion, you should be making the case for why it's desirable, not us. Other than extremely overpowered combinations, what are the benefits of this system? What character concepts or playstyles does it make possible that cannot be done under the current system?
Yes, it might! Except that I think players wont take both Single Target heals anymore, since they wont have to heal as much! I'm biased against Empaths, btw! Growing up, most Coin-Op Arcade games i played always let the player heal themselves somehow, with.. a turkey, soda can, burger, etc... When i started with CoH, i really didnt know what to make of Empathy, and ignored it for a very good while, and only very recently did i try out a Pain Domination powerset on a Thugs mastermind. On a mastermind i already knew i would need to BabySit the pets... but that meant also Defenders would need to BabySit players too! I Cant Do That! Well, I can, but I'd get Bored after about 10 minutes!
And, its just outright cheating when you can heal someone from almost No Heath to close to Full Health in 2 clicks anyways! I think people will just get 1 Single Target heal from empathy for this AT! But, its a Defenders prerogative!
It doesnt make sense to get 2 ST Heals, if you're almost never going to use both of them!
Anyways Radiation has been lacking a Single Target heal for a Loooong time! Even an O2 Boost would be better than nothing!
> ..you cannot just tack it onto an existing system and expect everything to work out.
I know. I've been a developer for most of my life! But I've been a Gamer for even longer! I guess it was because of Games I got into development in the 1st place. Of course it will take time! Heh... a pyramid wasnt built in a day!
Anyways, it doesnt have to be All or Nothing! In this case, the Melee Sets, Blast Sets, would be part of the 1st roll-out. We can see how well players receive it. 2nd Phase can be the Support Sets. If it proves to be Too Challenging, they dont have to roll it out anytime soon! Eventually though, players Will Want It, and they can say Its Still On the Drawing Board!
> You're talking about an incredibly huge revamp, and it doesn't even do anything for existing characters, only new characters using the new AT.
Oh.. Good! Less work! Since it doesnt benefit existing ATs, less work is needed, since they dont have to touch them at all!
> If the devs are going to spend a year or more of development on something, I would rather not have to delete characters to use it.
I dont know about you, but.. CoH is a great game and i've spent close to 7 years in it... and gotten great enjoyment! I feel kinda bad that I got to enjoy something sooo good and not really giving back to show my appreciation. So... once in a while... i purchase more character slots or whatever i think i want.. and I do it knowing that its going to secure CoH's future for a good few years longer. Or at least I hope it will!
You can delete characters if you want, but... lets let the developers ballpark the time/effort involved themselves!
This is the eventual AT, and as you can see.. even with VEAT', people will start asking for More VEAT Powers, More, More, More. They will eventually want most of the powers from some of the powersets added to a VEAT. And it wont just be one powerset.. Eventually it will be Most of the powersets! This new AT will Nip that need in the BUDDD!
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Quote:Nah.. That would be giving up! You shouldnt give up so easily!Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Please just let this thread die. I recognise the irony of this post.
Anyways... this might help in the long run!
Any yes.. irony is.. As soon as someone reads the initial part of this thread, they become biased. No one wants to allow for the mechanics to change a bit! Plus.. this doesnt Have to affect the current mechanics of existing ATs. The Max Value limit would only affect this new AT.
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Quote:You're right! My mindset, at least when talking about Defense, is how much a defenders Defense will benefit my scrapper/brute/tank!Originally Posted by Talen Lee
You really, really should endeavour to understand the game before you try to concept major changes to it. Guilty!
55% total Defense on my Scrapper isnt gonna cut it on an I-Trail!
15% is already the Max Defense from some of those Defender buffs.
So... since this is the Next Generation AT.. only a wee bit more defense should be added to the Max Value limit for +Def. Buff.
So... hypothetically:
level 10 (+Def) = 11 + 1 = 12
level 20 (+Def) = 12 + 2 = 14
level 30 (+Def) = 13 + 3 = 16
level 40 (+Def) = 14 + 4 = 18
level 50 (+Def) = 15 + 5 = 20% Max Defense
These are educated guesses! I leave the Math to the Pros!
All im reading is Why NOT to do it!! Where are the comments for Why Yes!!??
There is 80% Merit to this approach! Yea.. sure it needs work! Positive feedback appreciated!
The Whole point is to make it unappealing to get 2 15% +Def. Buffs. and let players get some other cool powers from that powerset.
So.. Single Target +Def Buffs like Ice Shield would get 60% - 70% (not sure yet) of the Max Defense limit (at lvl 50, Max might be.. lets say 20% ish)
Steamy Mist would get the rest 30% - 40%, since its an AoE, and not as good as a Single target buff.
Maybe just use the Level that power was taken that will determine the Frontloaded +Def. Buff of 60% to it?!?
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Quote:Surprisingly No! Read a few posts back about Max Value limit about Fulcrum Shift and Enervating Field! Buffs/Debuss/ etc.. will all have a Max Value based on the players level.Originally Posted by Edana
Sets are balanced as a whole, any attempt to custom-mix them together means rebalancing every single power that exists; you can't just let balance go out the window because you've got arbitrary performance caps.
Flexible power sets are a valid concept to design into a completely new game, not one that can be implemented in this one without taking up months of development time that could be better spent creating something new or fixing problems. -
Quote:I see. It still sound to me like you want more variety in the Existing VEAT's.. not so much to remake a whole new AT!Originally Posted by BrandX
That's why the idea is a new AT akin to Widows/Soldiers which have a mix of range and melee attacks and defense sets.
As for combining the attacks, it would just mean having punches with the pistols in hand and no reason the pistols can't be in hand while performing a kick. Sure, animations can be added.. some powers can have 2 different animation styles. You want Dual Handed stances instead of the Grip the Rifle stance! Thats understandable! Hehe.. now i cant stop thinking how silly those MasterMind Minions look, standing still with dual pistols! hehe kinda just want to say to them "There There.. that stance suits u very well" then look to the side and roll my eyes!
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Quote:Hehe... Who is that!?!?Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Are you by any chance related to Golden Girl?
No!
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Quote:Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
That is exactly what it means. Kinetics buffs are indeed already imbalanced... but they're imbalanced around the fact that other buff/debuffs sets are equally imbalanced and desirable. Allowing any kind of mixing and matching leads *exactly* to the grab one or two powers of a set to eliminate the need for the rest of the set mentality I described earlier.
Even with your arbitrary rules, which seem to mostly say "You can mix attack sets, that's it", you will still run into the "Rage for EVERYONE" of my earlier post. Even with your max value. It's not about stacking Rage and Build up for ultimate damage - it's about making rage accessible to sets that aren't balanced around its presence, like superstrength is. If you want to see what happens when Rage is allowed off its leash you have to look no further than the Brute forums and the multitude of SS/Fire threads. What makes the combo tick is Rage beefing up Burn, and Fiery Embrace beefing up Footstomp.
And they both use entirely different mechanics to do so, so your max value wouldn't matter UNLESS it was set lower than the buff from either.
That's the real trick about this kind of thing. It's really not about stacking like bonuses. Force Field Generator + Ice Domination's shields = nice. Force Field Generator + Empathy's healing = nobody ever plays a Defender empath again.
The more exclusions you have to make for the sake of balance the less desirable the end product becomes. Not (just) because of the way it clamps down on min/max power but simply for a truth of game design:
Players REALLY hate being told what they can and can't take.
I still know people who are angry, yes angry, that Katana and Claws didn't get one handed animations so they can be paired with Shield Defense. They hate seeing primaries or secondaries greyed out on the character generation screen. Hate it.
This would be worse.
> That's the real trick about this kind of thing. It's really not about stacking like bonuses. Force Field Generator + Ice Domination's shields = nice. Force Field Generator + Empathy's healing = nobody ever plays a Defender empath again.
Nuuuuu! You're forgetting about the toons Level playing a part in the Max Value limit.
The full benefits wont be see until lvl 50, and by that time, defenders will Need It!
55% Defense? Phhhh.. That wont help you in an Incarnate Trial! Ehh, but you never know! They could always nerf i-Trials!
Hypothetically... with a Max Value limit..
Tapering Ex:
Force Field Generator (+Def) = two 50 Invention IO's
Ice Manipulation (+Def) = two 50 Invention IO's
How much extra defense would Four 50 Invention IO's give you? Yea! Very little!
But, thats a defenders prerogative!
> This would be worse.
o.O huh!?!?
Honestly? For 'Believability' they did the Right thing for Katana, Claws, etc... as far as Shield Defense is concerned! We still have Broadsword! Take it instead!
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Quote:Very True! Ive said it as well! But...Originally Posted by JayboH
That's because they are. They did a VERY good job on the VEATs. I have always thought the inherent weakness to Kheldians gimmick should have been scrapped after ED hit.
just like Claws Melee.. i think it was called Evicerate? the Superior Cone attack? It doesnt have the Knock down effect, which people want, and might replace that power with its cousin from the Spines Melee powerset.
Same thing with a Window! I wasnt happy that such a powerful attack like that didnt have Some Sort of Effect accompanying it.. (did you see the awesome twirl in the air? and no Knock Down? Stun? etc.. Really!? ) even if it was for 2 to 3 seconds... just didnt feel real! Err sorry Real is not the best word.. lets use 'Believable!'
So yea... weather its concept Beleavable or other... VEATS is not the All to End All AT! Sorry!