ICF_Zombra

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Converted or reformed villains are a standard comics trope.

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And while the reformed villain/corrupted hero is a staple of the genre, it is usually part of a deep and involved storyline. You don't see too much "Oh yeah, there's this demon, but he's a good guy, don't worry about it."

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Well, you do see that a lot, but we probably both agree those players don't have much connection with their avatar or the game world.

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Yeah, I was talking about when that happens in comics. In comics, there's usually a huge focus on the inner turmoil, how the character got to be that way, etc.

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I guess breakage of immersion is dependant upon the player. For me, the biggest thing that breaks my immersion are bad names (fictitious example: Ult1mAteBlastr3) and clone characters (oh look, another Superman clone). Sometimes these are one in the same, depending on the name and avatar.

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Totally with you on this. Thing is, this is something that Cryptic has no control over. They can encourage people to mesh well with the environment until they're blue in the body part, but at the end of the day they can't dictate what people will create. The thing with the evil pets is their Cryptic's creation from the get-go.

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Seeing BananaMan slide down the street whiping out crime? Eh, I've seen worse, like a mothman who keeps getting mistaken for a rabbit

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Don't get me wrong. I love goofball comics too; the Tick was probably my favorite ever when Edlund was doing it. Hell, my favorite comic of all time is Flaming Carrot, about a crimefighter who, yes, wears a six foot carrot mask with flames that come out the top. Co* has a really well done generic super landscape, flavored with a strong dose of Golden Age morality, but with plenty of room for shades of grey. A lighter, Tick-like approach fits in just fine (though Flaming Carrot would be a bit beyond the pale). A heavier, darkity dark approach melds right in too. Cute yet evil pets are just harder to make fit. They CAN fit, as you and others have shown. But just seeing little demons running around in the streets with no visible explanation just colors a little too far outside the elastic lines of the world for my tastes.

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There are comic references for heroes (or antiheroes) conniving with the underworld (Spawn is the first that comes to mind). Dark melee, dark defenders, heroes that use lethal weapons - are these also concepts that break immersion?

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Not at all - again, if the explanation is there. Actually a lot of the darkity stuff does break immersion. You've seen these guys in CoH a million times; we all have. Lord Whoever is the real king of Hell, come to earth to murder and evil blah blah blah god I hate those guys. I consider that to be the same thing as the dumb names and clone characters you were talking about: players taking advantage of their freedom to fly in the face of the actual world concept. But I have no problem with people who are responsible about having a dark concept. I've seen loads of descriptions that explain why someone so caught up in darkness is fighting crime. But really comparing character types with the evil pets doesn't work very well, because players have to choose how they're going to build and describe their characters. They can choose to make a great concept that meshes well with the world, or they can choose to suck. With the pets, other than picking one, there's no work to do or real decision to be made in order to use them. The burden for creating pets that fit well really does fall on Cryptic.

Lethal weapons ... yeah, I do have some issues with that actually, but that's probably a topic for a whole 'nother thread.

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But if all else fails, you are correct that the basic "wizardry" explanation _Castle_ delivers is enough for players who may not be as imaginative as others, or who are just bad at making backstories, etc. It's the "easy out", so to speak - it delivers the most basic way to explain why it is what it is, which obviously will work for a lot of players.

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Yeah. For those who have the creativity to come up with great, interesting reasons to have these pets, well, they're awesome as always. For those who don't, the "wizard" justifications provided will hopefully be just fine.

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Converted or reformed villains are a standard comics trope. I find it lots less difficult to take than a blanket 'Its a hologram'.

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That's fine too, and I agree, more in theme. Though it doesn't seem like it would apply to the pets real well. The Mek, reprogrammed, I guess. The Clock taken over by a friendly psychic, OK. The demon, reformed, ugh, not really. The Red Cap reformed, no way - but that one's already covered; it's a hologram. The monkeys are too brainless to begin with, but I'll buy "trained" I guess.

And while the reformed villain/corrupted hero is a staple of the genre, it is usually part of a deep and involved storyline. You don't see too much "Oh yeah, there's this demon, but he's a good guy, don't worry about it." Generally there is a lot of text that explains such a character and his motivations. Just saying "Oh yeah, there are all these little demons in Paragon, and they're reformed or something so they're nice" is not going to cut it for me.

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So the pets don't seem like such a stretch. It really is up to the individual player to come up with their storyline, or ignore it totally.

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Yeah. I'm just not real thrilled with having to make the stretch in the first place. Co* really does an amazing job of making all its crazy parts fit together somewhat convincingly. Heck, even the frickin Halloween event has a consistent storyline behind it. Evil pets is just so out of left field.

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The Clockwork are not actual robots; they are hunks of metal animated by the mental power of the Clockwork King.

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What about all those Clockwork guarding what's-her-name's store in New Faultline? I haven't done that arc, but I'd wager the Clockwork King has nothing to do with those guys.

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No idea. I never heard of this before this thread. I'm sure there's a good justification for it. I'm waiting for I8 to go live to do the new Faultline.

See, that's all I'm saying. As long as there is a good justification for it built in to the game, I will have no problem with it. If there are now "good Clockwork" that I never heard of before, sweet, the Clock pets make perfect sense for heroes.

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I don't see most people really going the extra mile to make a cool rationalization like any of yours. What we are going to see are hundreds of superheroes running around with demons fluttering along behind them for no reason other than that they look kinda cool. ... The fact is, taken at face value, these pets do not make sense and are immersion breaking.

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Yeah, but you can't really blame Cryptic for a player's lack of creativity.

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I can and will blame them for building an environment that requires creative rationalization to make any sense or fit with the previous world concept. By your logic, Cryptic could give a veteran reward of fresh fruit costume pieces, where you could turn your character into a giant flying pineapple, watermelon, or bunch of bananas, and it wouldn't be immersion breaking because a sufficiently creative player could explain it away. It's their world and they can do what they want with it, but introducing nonsense and inconsistency, and making me work that much harder to suspend my disbelief, is not a good way to keep me invested.

Heroes are good guys. Having them hang out with demons from Hell is a very powerful strain on my immersion. I can make it fit if I scrunch up my forehead real hard and puzzle it out, but wouldn't it be better if it just fit, right out of the box?

That said, I will repeat that Castle's post reassured me a lot. If all the descriptions do that good a job* of dealing with the issue, I'll be completely satisfied with VR pets.

*And it isn't even that brilliant. "It's not a real Red Cap, it's a hologram of one!" It's kind of along the lines of, "Whenever anything like that happens, a wizard did it." And yet it answers my problem quite adequately. If all the VR pets are described as "just holograms", I'll shrug my shoulders and say, "OK, fine, that works. It's weird, but it works."

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I honestly don't think you're giving the players enough credit through creative license ICF_Zombra. If one were to keep a polarized view about what kind of pets heroes should and shouldn't have based solely upon secular storyline content, there would be little to no variety in pet options, IMHO.

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Wellll, that's fair. If I said that no hero should have these pets ever, I hereby retract it. I'm always happy when a good RP justification can be found for anything, no matter how counterintuitive it is at face value. But I still think that the face value of these pets is pretty darn counterintuitive.

Really, to make another generalization, I don't see most people really going the extra mile to make a cool rationalization like any of yours. What we are going to see are hundreds of superheroes running around with demons fluttering along behind them for no reason other than that they look kinda cool. Can we rationalize it if we really apply ourselves? Probably. But the fact is, taken at face value, these pets do not make sense and are immersion breaking.

Again, as I said in my reply to _Castle_, if they all have descriptions that do the rationalizing for those players who can't be bothered, I will have no problem with it. I have no fundamental problem with heroes running around with little hologram generators in their pockets that make projections of evil gnomes. It's pretty weird, but the hologram explanation is enough to pacify me. It certainly beats the hell out of "You have a pet Red Cap."

As far as "variety", I'm all for it. I was very happy when the CoV costume elements were ported to CoH for example. But right now the pets all look evil. That ain't variety in my book.

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There's something fundamentaly wrong with having a homicidal, hunchbacked, bearded, ape-like, evil gnome for a pet.

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Does this help at all? Here is the exact long help description of the Red Cap Pet:
"You can use this power to create a solidified hologram of a Redcap Rascal. It will follow you around wherever you go. Great for parties!"

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Speaking for myself, that helps a lot! I'd actually love to see the text descriptions for all of them. Just a tiny nod to immersion like this is all I ask. Thanks Castle.

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Or, you know, it could just be a fun little reward for your characters which has absolutely no impact on gameplay.

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Go back and read the last paragraph of the post you quoted. Thanks.

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The Column Mek is worse.

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Enh. I look at it as parody.

Having a poster of <insert your most loathed politician here> wearing a diaper, sucking on a pacifier, and making a "I'm about to cry or fill this diaper" face isn't an endorsement of the politician.

I view the widduhwest Mek Men in the same way.

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That is freakin hilarious. Sold.

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There's something fundamentaly wrong with having a homicidal, hunchbacked, bearded, ape-like, evil gnome for a pet.

It's not cute, and it cannot be explained flavor-wise.

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I agree. It's totally weird.

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Clockwork and robot are constructs, no problem. They totally work as pets. Demon and Rikti Monkey are at least moderately cute, and they don't quite possesss human-level intelligence or looks, so it's fitting for them to be pets.
A little Tuatha De Dannan? Fir Bolg? Hydra? Anything from Devouring Earth? All FANTASTIC choices for a pet.

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I disagree on all counts.

Spoilers follow.

The Clockwork are not actual robots; they are hunks of metal animated by the mental power of the Clockwork King. Having a Clock hang out with you would require the King's complicity. Or I guess building a working robot yourself that just looked like a Clock. But why would a hero do that?

The Column Mek is worse. The Column doesn't make actual combat robots that size, so capturing one and reprogramming it is out of the question. So once again, we have a hero building a robot - and let's face it, the Column are Nazis. Making the effort to build one of these things - complete with Column symbol on the chest - is pretty much the same as crocheting swastikas onto your cape.

A demon? Are you kidding me? Um, that's about as pure a symbol of evil as you can get. I don't care whether it's unintelligent. You can't "domesticate" demons to be cuddly and nice. They are supernatural manifestations of evil, period.

Rikti Monkeys I can't comment on for sure since I don't really know what they are. I always thought of them as an indirect weapon against our world. Like plague rats. Infect a few rats with the plague and smuggle them into an enemy city to breed and spread their disease. Only instead of the plague, these cute little guys kill people with mental blasts. I guess I could see having a lobotomized monkey as a pet, the same way I'd want a plague rat with a muzzle. Sure, domesticated rats can actually make fine pets IRL. But nonetheless they are generally considered vermin. Rikti Monkeys are also vermin.

As for your other suggestions -

The Tuatha or Fir Bolg would be pretty weird, but I guess I can see it. They are basically people - from freaky magic civilizations, but people. So I guess it would be similar to a pumpkin man having a human child as a "pet". I'm not very comfortable with that image.

Not very familiar with the Hydra, but at best they strike me as dangerous animals. So maybe that would be like having a baby alligator. Babies grow up. I'd like to think that the average hero wouldn't be that irresponsible.

And Devouring Earth? Aren't they inextricably tuned in to a hive-mind bent on destroying human civilization? Nice pet.

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It might be fitting for a villain, but definitely not for a hero.
I don't know... It could've been done with a bit more care.

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Very much agreed. None of the pets in game are heroic at all. Where are the falcons? Where are the faithful canine companions? Heck, even a plain old house cat would make more sense. Or a normal monkey even.

I know the pets are just meant to be a cute, funny thing, not meant to be taken seriously. And I know that quadraped or bird animations would have to be done from scratch. It's just a lamentable immersion breaker for me that the Veteran Reward pets are pretty much all evil evil evil.

ACK

I [heart] Mako.

Also I am apparently unable to tell when threads are locked and when they aren't.

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So, does "getting used to" include accepting that the red targeting reticle will stop you from teleporting every ten tries or so?

Seriously, I've been asking about this problem for years now, and no one's been able to tell me whether it's a bug or "working as intended". Patch notes claimed to have fixed "the teleport bug" a few months ago, but apparently that referred to the no-reticle-tp-just-fails bug, because the red reticle problem is unchanged for me.

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Yeah, the recent fix was a fix to the recent bug that had something to do with range enhancements, I believe. The Red Circle of Death is as strong as ever. No teleporting near walls or ceilings for us!

Personally, I wouldn't have a huge problem with it except I know for a fact that it doesn't have to be this way. Before the inertia fix lonnnng, long ago, you basically never saw the Red Circle. If you tried to teleport into a wall or ceiling or some other tricky piece of architecture, you just ended up near it - exactly as it should be today. I guess I pretty much accepted the Circle as payment for getting rid of conservation of momentum, which sucked big donkey parts far more than anything we have to suffer now. I would never ever ever ever ever go back, and I'm grateful for what we Teleporters have today. But it sure would be even nicer if that stupid circle, that serves no evident purpose, could be done away with.

I love them all except Super Speed. Too many memories of trying to go get a costume changed in Icon and not being able to stand it because of 400 people standing around with SS on. Or taking the tram to Talos and having my subwoofer explode for the same reason. Also I have a deep-seated prejudice against Hasten because it was the Flavor Of The Month for about 20 months (and arguably has been for another 12 on top of that). I have a character or two with Hasten/SS because I want to give it a chance. So far I still don't really like it though.

I love Fly, and SJ is very effective as well as hilariously appropriate for some characters, but in my heart of hearts Teleport is my favorite. Probably the thing I miss most about the pre-ED days is Teleport 6-slotted for range. It was a good feeling to be by far the quickest traveller in the SG. I guess in a way that (combined with Recall Friend of course) made up some for the guilt of making my friends team with my Swift/Sprint/Hurdle/Quickness MA/SR once in a while.

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Yet a Super Group costume isn’t your creation, either. And yet people wear them.

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I don't

I fight crime in SG mode but I do it in the costume(s) and colors I chose for my characters.

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Yeah, I am sad that SG mode came to have a tangible function. I used to switch to SG mode whenever I was with my SG. We'd all do it and look awesome. Then I'd switch back out when soloing or pugging. Now if I want to do that I have to basically devote an entire costume slot to it. And nobody else does. It sucks.

<QR>

Just a couple responses to things mentioned after Statesman's post.

I LOVE the idea of a portrait of my character as a decorative base item.

Statues of the high-ranked or high-level members is another great idea.

It would be AWESOME for each character to have their own personal space. The clickable door that let you 'zone' to your personal room (a la stores in zones) would be great. I'm not sure how I feel about one "bedroom door", the same way we have one base portal. Actually I would be completely in favor of each character having to have their own unique door - with their name printed on it. Oh man that would be rad.

Long before CoV, I had the idea of letting offline SG mates wander around in the base as NPCs. While I still think that was a cool idea, I realize it will never happen. But portraits, statues, and personal rooms would, in a way, inject a personalized feel into bases. I want to walk down my group's 'portrait hall' and see the faces of the whole SG. Talk about a sense of being a part of something.

Yeah, I kinda want another crossover event to happen so we can have teams of Dominators and Tankers trying to deal with AVs.

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So basically if I want the most survivable tank, I can't have the best aggro control....but if I want the best aggroing tank, I can't be the most survivable.......

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Yeah, and if you slot to max damage and accuracy, you can't also slot to max endrdx and recharge ... sooo, there isn't one build who can do everything the best. This is bad how?

Off topic, but I thought this was a weird complaint, sorry.

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Unyielding. Remember? Used to be "Unyielding Stance".

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Well, it was a long time ago, after all...

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I hear ya, pardner. While we're reminiscing, this reminds me of another one ... I remember way back when I didn't know anything about how the game worked and ONLY took powers that sounded cool or in concept. A resistance click power that worked for a while, then wore off? That doesn't sound good! A status protection power that forces you to stand still? That's lame, I'm not taking that. And so forth. Good times ...

Bahahaha. I love this thread, Ty.

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Back when Invincibility rooted you (it was Invincibility, right?) and my old "tele-tanker".

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Unyielding. Remember? Used to be "Unyielding Stance".

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Actualy i still see some tanks and scrappers trying to heard a entire mapp... they usualy does not survive the experince. Stll.. fun to watch.

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And fun to try!

I love you Ty. Beautiful post.

"A-zappin-and-a-snappin mad as hornets" ... I just have to find a way to work that into my sig.

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Ah, the other definition. I thought you were talking about the personality trait, not a pool of water. I guess yes, being on a screen, they are flat and 2-dimensional. I'll give you that.

I figured you meant the definition: lacking depth; superficial: a mind that is not narrow but shallow. Because that one would make no sense in this context to a normal mind.

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I guess I am weird then, because I actually see the connection between the two definitions, and why the same word is used for both.

I'm also weird because I love Moxie.

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Kool aid by the way is simply a powdered drink mix. Some people like myself are really cheap and get the kind where you add a bunch of sugar to a 2 liter container and then a little packet of powder, and you get some coolaid. I'm not sure the actual name of the product.. Kool aid is just a name brand, it's like calling "facial tissues" kleenex.

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Yeah, Kool Aid is the brand. I don't think there actually is a generic name for "flavored powder that you add to water to make a beverage". And I also wanted to chime in and reinforce that sugar and water are really the only significant ingredients in Kool Aid. The little flavor packets don't really add much more than color. You add about 100 times as much sugar as the actual Kool Aid product. Amazing stuff.

Actually it's a little weird that this came up. After about 20 years of no Kool Aid, I started buying it again last month for no evident reason. Lemon Lime is my favorite.

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It is never going to go away. Its like Pop vs Soda.

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Heh, I don't say either. Neither of them are normally used terms in England. Actually I've always found them both to be silly words.

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Well, remember that, for many Americans, especially nerdy Americans, our #1 exposure to English culture is Monty Python. So we kind of expect you to prefer silly words.

Out of curiosity, what term do you use for sugary carbonated non-alcoholic beverages? SCNABs?