Humility

I've addressed this several times, I'm not interested in doing market research. You want something proved, then prove it. This has been stated several times but you're either too thick to get it, or too intent on trolling to bother. Low supply is a flaw. Simple as that. A flawed market contributes to population issues. But then... you just repeat the same things over and over again without anything new to add to the conversation. What's the next bald faced lie you would like to tell in this thread?

Gearford, if the word that comes to mind for you is "term paper" any sort of higher education is going to be a rude awakening for you. Most of my posts are typed during loading screens on missions. Guess some of us can just type faster than others. As for serious posters in this thread... I have seen just about one. He actually bothered to post up some comparative numbers. Everyone else is just posting anecdotal evidence with no factual backing (myself included) and going "NANANANA YOU'RE WRONG!"

But hey, I just have issues with people trying to pass off opinion or outright bad information as fact. Only caveat is, my opinion is right and yours is wrong! You want to tell me I'm wrong, then prove it. Otherwise that can really be said is that our opinions and experiences differ.

Sorry, burden of proof has absolutely nothing to do with the number of people backing either side of the argument.

Yet... here you are in another blatant lie. There are several people in this thread who agree with me. Even Tokyo admits there are supply problems redside and he supports that side of the argument. If you're going to outright lie to support your argument, try to do it in a way that isn't blatantly obvious to anyone who has actually read the thread... just a suggestion to keep your foot from your mouth.

Actually, I owe you nothing. My anecdotal evidence is exactly as reliable and relevant as yours. Fixating one something which has been repeatedly explained, and was clearly never the point to start with just smacks of trolling... surprise surprise. Would you like to tell me again how I'm the only one who provides anecdotal evidence regarding the market in this thread?

Interesting choice of phrasing. Yet, by putting forth any statement about pricing in the first place you are implying that your statement does indeed have some measure of integrity and we should not ignore it out of hand. As has already been stated, my anecdotal evidence is just as relevant and reliable as yours.

You seem hellbent on "proving" otherwise, yet are completely unwilling to put forth anything but anecdotal evidence. You want to "prove" anything, the burden of proof is on you. Me, I don't care about proving jack squat, I care about having fun with the game. I'm doing that just fine with that by avoiding red market. As someone with zero interest in "proving" anything, burden of proof certainly doesn't lie with me.

But please, continue telling me I lie, then telling me I'm supposed to "prove" something to you. It's pretty good for a chuckle. Or... and this is a bit of a stretch I know... you could realize that the point you're trying to address is something only distantly related to the point at hand (which has been pointed out repeatedly, but is being ignored in favor relatively poor attempts to troll) and actually try to add something relevant to the conversation. I know that's a big stretch, and not likely to happen... but I figured I would toss that out there at least.

If you've never seen common salvage hit 150K, I don't believe that you regularly use the market.

My cold is the root cause of my sneeze. My sneeze is a symptom of my cold.
Low population is the root cause of the supply problems. Supply problems are a symptom of low population.

Functionally identical.

For this usage of the word, it is not possible for an opinion to be flawed, just different than your own. A nuance that seems lost on many posters.

You would think that the regularity of such threads might be an indication of a problem. Apparently a topic so common it brings responses of groans and ridicule is pure coincidence and not an indicator that at least part of the player base seems to think there is a problem.

Of course... Scythus doesn't seem to believe that common salvage regularly hits prices of 150K which leads me to believe he doesn't actually use the market.

Well, I already stated that population was the root cause of the market issue, which is functionally identical to saying the market issue is a symptom of population issues. As for it being a problem...

Clearly, lack of supply does cause difficulty. So in a technical sense it is without question, a problem. You may not consider it a problem, but clearly others do, and that only serves to drive more people away from red, further exacerbating the problem.

The root cause is a population problem, but there is no question it creates a market problem.

Ok, perhaps I was unclear at some point... I have a 50 brute, 39, 37 and 32 masterminds and a few other vils of various levels. My brute is pretty much completely IO'd out (not purples or anything, but respectable sets and uniques) and the MM have at least common IO's for everything and I have something in the neighborhood of 500 mil in liquid and stored IOs. By no means an ebil marketeer but I'm not a pauper redside. Making the money isn't tough, finding useful things to do with it for a non 50 character is the issue. My redside characters were IO'd out two years ago before I left the game for a while, which is good because I wouldn't want to try to do it in the current market (I prefer 30-35 IOs for the flexibility of ex'ing down).

Making the money is not tough, the only people trying to say that are those who were trying to act like I was incompetent at the market without any information in that regard. In regards to your above points specifically, I never buy IO's period. Common or otherwise. Always, ALWAYS ALWAYS buy recipes and craft your own. As for posting yeah, slightly under the going rate is my approach. Something going for 20 I would probably post for 17-18 depending on what it is, posted as 18,000,777 or something similar so a bit of 18 won't get it and the lazy bid creeper will tack on another 500K-1mil or so usually. Making money is as easy as playing the game and not licking windows in your off time. My issue, stated again and again in this thread is one of supply. There simply is not access to fun shiny toys for leveling characters redside. This detracts enough from the play for me that I don't want to play red in that environment.

Can't wait for vigilante status from GR.

That was actually a direct response to someone else who assumes I'm not being truthful specifically regarding the damned circuit boards no one can seem to see past.

I'm not actually interested in marketeering at all. As I have stated more than once, making money isn't tough at all. Heck, I've only been blueside a couple weeks and I've got somewhere around 150 mil liquid, another 20 in bids and another 50 in posted ios waiting to sell. That's based solely off of drops and ae tickets rolls I made while leveling and I still kept a bunch of choice bits for myself (regenerative tissue regen, steadfast res/def global etc) as well as buying a couple 5 piece Crushing Impacts (plus the beginnings of two more sets) and starting on some doctored wounds sets. Everything else in my build is frankenslotted or has basic common IO's (fast healing and the like get common IOs until the build has enough slots open to use them as a set mule or something) Making money, even without "playing the market" isn't difficult in the least, and I never tried to say it was. It's a matter of not having anything to spend it on when playing redside that is the issue here.

I would however really like some sweet sweet merit shiny toys like lotg 7.5s and the like. Because I like to put shiny things on my character.

And I would challenge your integrity for being more interested in trolling the thread than adding something to it. I still didn't put forth any hard evidence, and don't intend to. See, everyone said something that disagreed with my personal experiences so I tested it. Not for them, not for you, not for proof... because I like the red ATs and play environment a bit better. I would prefer to play red, but have not found the market serviceable to do so. It really doesn't much matter if you or anyone else believes me, because I wasn't testing for you, I was testing for me.

Interesting... but not true to my (possibly limited) experience. I've heard the "rule of 5" commonly used in regards to IO set bonuses both on forums and in game as a relatively standard useage of terminology. Your post however, is the first time I've ever seen it used to refer to 5 slotting a power.

No, your post said nothing about burden of proof. It said nothing constructive. It was a clear attempt to troll and restart a fight. I've already clearly stated several times I'm not interested in doing any sort of market research, so this post as well is nothing but an attempt to further drag out the discussion to see if you can't milk more drama out of it.

Nothing about burden of proof there, just an outright lie that completely ignores several other people in the thread relying on anecdotal experience, including yourself.

Anecdotal

Anecdotal

Anecdotal

Interesting how you started out your presence in the thread by calling me a liar, then make a statement like that which is a clear lie by your own posts in the thread.

Or did I miss where your post actually brought something new to the thread? Cause I didn't see anything but just another troll post to throw fuel on the dieing fire.

Then you completely missed the point of that statement. The point being that the red market does not get enough traffic to quickly recover from that kind of price fixing. It will recover, but nowhere nearly as quick as the much higher traffic blue market. The point was, red is MUCH more vulnerable to that, and takes much longer to recover.

But yeah, taken out of context with no point of reference it really adds a lot to your point again... wait... what was your point exactly? I must have missed it because all I saw in your post was basically "you're wrong because I say so". I really am curious, what was your point in posting except to bring up an irrelevant point, out of context, and further drag on a pointless discussion that had pretty much ended.

Wow, way to completely miss an attempt at a chuckle man. You're taking it way too seriously. The point was to be over the top and accentuate how ridiculous the whole thing is. The market is flawed, because it does not suit my needs in having midrange recipes. You continue to tell me that I AM WRONG, yet are completely unwilling to offer any proof, what kind of response did you expect? I don't care about proving anything, I care about playing the game and having fun without planning out everything I do 53 levels in advance, red market is flawed for that kind of a playstyle. I tested it, I proved it to myself and took up play on blueside where casual IO'ing has been easy and relatively inexpensive. So if you would like to continue to tell me I am wrong, kindly offer some sort of evidence. You seem to want to take everything I write as completely serious though I have repeatedly stated that it is not, and then tell me to calm down.

Relax, smile, have a beer/soda. My saying your market is flawed isn't going to somehow ruin your gaming experience. As for your removed post I apologize for the confusion, I was unaware of that policy specifically. As I said, it was intended only to show a point, but if you want to use it as an excuse to get all huffy, by all means do so.

Funny, who would have thought that violating the forum ToS with flaming and personal attacks could get a post removed. You may find my posts abrasive, but they don't violate the rules.

Flaming and personal attacks is what makes them trolls, not disagreeing with me.

I should never expect to be flamed and trolled. It's a violation of board rules. The only rule in the list before this one is that you must have a CoX account to post. Just because you disagree with what I've said or find my tone abrasive does not in fact give you leave to post like that. The fact that your post was removed is concrete evidence of such.

The red market is clearly flawed, as I've already stated. Don't agree with me? Good for you. The market however, is clearly flawed. Presenting your anecdotal experience does nothing to change that. You have some empirical evidence otherwise I would be happy to look at it. Until then, I maintain that the red market is flawed. Feel free to maintain that the red market isn't flawed.

I haven't taken issue with people saying the market is fine. I've taken issue with people saying "you're wrong, the market is fine". A fine, but important distinction. Because until you provide some sort of hard evidence, I'm no more wrong than you are. Of course... that's a bit of a paradox since you are wrong! Lighten up man, I'm not trying to piss in your wheaties or steal all your ebil marketeer inf. I've already said I tend to toss out hyperbole, no need to get all worked up over it.

One other thing to mention... we already know that your word is suspect and cannot be trusted. You made a statement that you have read and agreed to follow the rules of these forums while using them. You have already broken that word in this thread as evidenced by the removed post. I point this out in reference to statements that my trustworthiness in regard to my red market test may be in question. Please don't take it as any sort of attack, because it is not. It is simply intended to demonstrate that while the quality of my word may be unknown, there is solid evidence that yours cannot be trusted due to your inability to honor the contract you digitally signed to get access to these forums.

Not sure if you mean that my posts have an entirely different feel in a thread that isn't full of people flaming me, or if you're making some reference I just don't get (just woke up), or what you mean by "the darkside" but uhm... thanks I guess?

Guess I kinda stooped to feeding the trolls. I haven't really directed anything to you (though the recipe info was indirectly a response to you as well) because what you've said has pretty much been reasonable and polite. I have issues with people saying the red market is fine (which is a matter of opinion) and that I'm a crappy player because I don't enjoy dealing with the flaws of it. Oddly, Catwhoorg has pretty much the same opinion I do about the red market, yet has not had a flamer dogpile happen for it (one advantage of being a resident "board celeb" I suppose). So Catwhoorg is a poor player and doesn't know how to use the market right? Clearly, that's the only explanation for people who don't enjoy the state of the redside market.

At any rate, your posts have been read, processed and appreciated. I have a history of enjoying a strong debate, and the tone of my posts should not mislead anyone to the mistaken thought I have any sort of emotional investment in this argument. I have been known to put forth some hyperbole, and argue my point strongly, but when it comes down to it, we're all just playing the game and I really don't much care aside from being slightly disappointed with the state of play redside and quite disappointed yet unsurprised by the number of people who seem to think personal attacks add something of value to their side of the argument.


It's not a need to be right so much as an almost OCD need to correct people misinterpreting or misrepresenting things I have said, or trying to set up straw man arguments. As for my investment... I'm a pretty passable typist, none of my posts have taken more than a couple minutes to whip up. Doubtless it takes longer to read the thread than the time I have put in posting in it. I've already stated in this post my thoughts and motivations in posting, so no need to be relaxing any further on my part. As for the avatar... I've found that most internet "discussions" are on par with punching yourself in the junk right from the get go.

Exactly, this is a game and should be fun.

I just dug up the exact info on GR morality and access. Looks like Vigilantes get access to all the zone sets and remain tied to Wents. A perfect happy medium (barring RP reasons) for my desires.

Not that I particularly care anymore after the troll nature of most posters on this subject have showed, but they were all common double/triple IOs. Many of them were pieces that I purchased and used while leveling my scrapper in the past week. Blueside I was able to buy most of them RIGHT NAO for 20-50K. My redside bids were between 50-500K depending on the recipe and history. No point lowballing when I'm trying to test something TO PROVE IT TO MYSELF. I could care less about proving board posters right or wrong. You were saying something that did not agree with my personal experience, so I tested it. I would love to be proved wrong and be shown that there is an ample supply of redside leveling IOs easily accessible.

I prefer playing and leveling redside, but I really like shiny little toys for my toons. Its fun and gives me something I can look forward too. Hey, at level XX I can start slotting [shiny set] into my powers, yay! It's fun. Redside market cannot support that. The market for 50 ios is probably fine, I don't know or care. To my experience, blueside I was able to buy basic common sets easily, cheaply and quickly. Redside those same pieces were unavailable over a much greater timeframe with higher priced bids.

For the record I think most of what I bid on was Bonesnap, Pulverizing Fisticuffs, Bruising Blow and Pounding Slugfest. I didn't double check that every recipe was indeed a common (technically uncommon I guess) drop, but they were all basic stuff, I avoided quads, procs etc.

But hey, keep flaming me, it really makes you look tough and drives the point home. What point exactly that would be... I leave up to the individual reader.

Creeping up on 29... I've teamed. Once. Technically untrue I guess since I have teamed a couple of times with my son, but he's mostly been focused on getting his MM to 50 to unlock VEATs. 5 kids, wife and work... I have time to play, but I can rarely commit to be at the keyboard uninterrupted, so I just generally don't team.

So yeah, not really an issue.

Because I have a 50 /WP brute? Because I enjoy a set with high passive health regen? Because I enjoy a set with Quick Recovery? Because I enjoy a set with a handy early self heal? Because I can respec/use my second set for a build more suited to high impact play after I'm finished leveling?

There's more to /regen than Dull pain.