HissyFit

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No thanks, I'll pass if that's what pvp does bcome.

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This the point I keep trying to bring up - going by previous MMOs many players will take the no-thank-you choice if PvP takes on the stink of farm-for-the-win.

They don't think: "He's got lots better equipment... this will be a fun challenge!"

They don't think: "Last 3 guys won because they had uber equipment... maybe the 4th won't!"

They think: "This is pointless, this is no fun... to hell with it!"

Usually PvP becomes a side-line feature - played by the hardcore, skipped by the masses. I just don't see how CoV can be successful if it's core feature, PvP, becomes viewed as not-for-me by a large chunk of the player base.

And that seems to be right where we're heading, judging by previous MMOs that have fallen into this *exact* pit.

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Adding a negitive to a positive is subtracting, under no circumstance will you end up with more effectiveness than the inital effectiveness of the origial enhancement

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No, she was correctly pointing out that HOs do not work in PvP at the moment. They have never worked in PvP, because there is no PvP. HOs are pure PvE at the moment - anything they do for PvP can be seen as additional.

Devs said pretty much the same thing about nerfing powers for PvP - a power cannot be nerfed for PvP because they have never been used in PvP. And they've sure been mucking with powers left and right to make PvP a better experience.

You have an anticipation of using HOs in PvP - that is all you can lose.

But, many of us had an anticipation of the uber-loot-free nature of CoH continuing into PvP. And an understading that repeating content is not required (one might even say frowned upon, seeing what happened to wolf farming).

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So, the 'successful' MMORPG rewards non-effort and effort equally, allowing nothing to distinguish the two?

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You are putting words into my mouth -- I said nothing about rewards. I certainly said nothing about equal rewards.

I pointed out that Cryptic does have to make the 'non-effort' people happy or they may stop paying for the service.

When people argue the risk-vs-reward or work-for-it angle they forget this wrinkle - People in real life may have a hard time escaping being poor without making an effort. People in a game have another option - they can quit.

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Why are some people rich and others poor?

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The problem with these work-for-it arguments is that they forget the *other* capitalistic system at work here - Cryptic wants to sell product.

Unlike real-life the 'poor' can (and do!) opt out. Think about it: who's gonna pay to be poor?

If Cryptic fails to deliver something that works for the 'poor' then Cryptic stands to lose a chunk of their customers. If its a big enough chunk then Cryptic suffers.

And all your talk of work-for-it means diddly-squat compared to that.

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Instead of pushing for no HO's and what not why not push for more ways to get muti-O's.

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People have asked for this.

Only problem I see is heavy HO heroes making PvP too fast.

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I'm not sure very many people will be interested in doing that, and thus it won't be a noticable or glaring problem.

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Its been my experience that a (probably small) fraction of an MMOs player base will go to silly extremes for an advantage - especially a PvP advantage. And, while small, that fraction lead to a whole bunch of hassle (just look at the recent HO-related hassles, and we haven't even started pvp yet - i'd expect HO-skewed powerset-balance complaints once the arena opens).

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Why aren't you crying nerf over those special SO's

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For one, You level past these. Earning experience as you gather these puts a limit on just how many you can own.

But, if an HO solution is found for the Arena, I'd expect it to apply to all non-standard enhancements.

Same for Accolades (not as big a problem to my eyes since you only have to do it once and you have more choices about how you earn them - farm the wolves, do wolf missions, pop wolves when you see them on the street).

Personally, I got no issue keeping all this stuff as PvE.

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You can place 1 in each primary, secondary, power pool and epic pool power of your choice.

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This would be my pick, but I also think its too late.

Will a battle between 2 HO'ed out Heroes suffer that *other* common MMO PvP issue - blink and you miss it?

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You have a few choices to make now.

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I agree with your list - those are the options I'm looking at (well, not 2 and probably not 4).

Now imagine if a big chunk of the playerbase feels the same. Option 3 means not buying CoV. Option 4 means cancelling your subscription. Do you think Cryptic wants either?

All this talk about intense/casual, lazy/hard-worker, capitalist/communist (this one amuses me) means little -- I don't like farming a raid. If raid farming is tied to PvP then I will skip PvP. If I'm not enjoying PvP I'll think twice before I buy CoV. Pretty easy cause and effect.

If there are enough players like me (and I think there are) the game needs to accomidate us. This is the truest form of capitalism.

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for the challenge?

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If I want that sort of challenge I'll go solo Hami... I mean, still no chance of winning, but if I do... score!

How long did update 3's one-shot-bosses last? A couple of days? I think you'll find your answer in that.

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or you can choose your opponents carefully.

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You'll note that some players have asked for such tools -- the option of HO-free matches or some way to see who has slotted how many HOs.

Oddly enough this doesn't seem popular with the pro-HO crowd.

Shall we venture a guess as to why...

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Maybe its not everyones cup of tea

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I've never much enjoyed raids -- all those people make me feel less than important -- a source of a little more damage to be poured on. I do a raid once or twice and I don't want to go back.

I really like 4 - 6 man teams. PvE and PvP. This will get me to 50 quite handily.

But then I'm stuck - I'm not going to farm content I don't enjoy in a game - that's just a stupid waste of my free time.

Tying one whole large area of content (PvP) to another (Raid Farming) means your enjoyment in one suffers if you don't like the other.

So, even though large-team raiding has absolutly nothing to do with what I want from the arena (small-team matches), its still the largest deciding factor.

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Defeating evil isn't all about doing what you want. It's about fighting evil however it sprouts up.

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As you're passing through Atlas, do you stop every mugging you see?

As you fly over Kings Row, do you stop and investigate every green glow you spy atop a building?

In short - do you take your own advice and "fight evil however it sprouts up"?

I bet not. And why? Because it ain't fun and it ain't rewarding.

Perhaps you should get off your soapbox and go save granny again...

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I don't understand all this anger and outrage at all

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It isn't directed at you. It isn't directed at the folks who enjoy this sort of play.

People are angry because they enjoy the game and they thought the game was trying to avoid some of the crud we see in other MMOs and now it *seems* to be turning into the same old grind they don't like.

The end game seems to be focused solely on one style of play. A style of play that has historically been difficult on players with odd schedules, short hours, small guilds, the wrong guild, the wrong build and so on. Remember, what works for one player may not work for the next - not all casual players are the same - we're just more likely to suffer if the game gives us very limited options.

I wouldn't mind doing this raid once. Maybe even 3 times. And yes, I can probably find the right sorts of time for it.

I don't want to enter the Arena and lose simply because I did it 3 times and my opponent did it 2 dozen times. There will always be other people with better schedules and more willingness to repeat content -- my skill at PvP and my build choices will mean little compared to that.

I think PvP should be about skill and build choices. The interest comes from seeing what we can do given the same sorts of tools.

If I want to keep up, I need to do that raid some more. But now I'm not doing it because I want to -- I do it because that's what it takes to compete. And that's when this turns into Farming. I really hate Farming.

Again, I wouldn't take anything here too personally - these boards don't tend to bring out the best in folks.

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Like I said the same thing can be said for the missions.

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You could also skip missions and still get to 50 -- that path is available.

Can you skip Hami and still get HOs...?

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I just think it's sad how so many people write off pvp simply because of the existence of HO's.

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Some of us have been through this in other games. Think of it as a "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" kind of thing.

If the Devs want to tilt PvP heavily in favor of folks willing/able to Farm... well, why are we suprised when those who don't want to Farm say "to hell with it"?

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How are you going to tell if someone has Hamis? They don't show up in your power list, after all.

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You can't. I believe that's where the steroids comparison comes in. We can't tell who uses what so we just assume the worse - and stuff like homerun records don't seem to mean so much.

But I don't understand why you quoted by stupid grapes joke...

Seems to me Cleen this is one of the reasons folks ask for a "level playing field", So we know it's the skill and build choices that won.

The range of competition is just too wide - it's like the yankees and the little league all at one world series. What does it mean when the Yankees win? Why does that interest me? We all knew who was going to win going in.

Pre 45 is like the little league vs little league - I can wrap my brain around that - the winner is in doubt and therefore of interest.

I can respect your ability to gather HOs - I remember ToA and I know it takes work and some smarts. But all that happened before the Arena match and it renders the match a done-deal... and I just don't care so much about the outcome.

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Sir, are the grapes REALLY that sour?

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Well... I've sure tasted sweeter! *smiles*

Can we at least have some more ways to earn these things? I'm having a hard time swallowing the idea that *now* we're suppose to Farm.

Why did you even bother changing that Wolfie mission so it couldn't be farmed? Pre 45 you protect us from our bad instinct to Farm, Post 45 you want us to Farm... confusing...

Folks in WoW complain about an end game that revolves about farming a handful of raids. They don't know how lucky they are - at least they got a handful...

You do realize that many of us are here because we actually wanted a game without the madness of Elite Loot? That we don't want to feel forced into farming?

Does your casual player base mean so little to you?

Given the choice between farm-for-the-win and skip Arena/CoV I'll skip PvP -- ToA taught me that much.

Loot Farming wins again... Very disappointed.

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I think my biggest issue with the new issue is just the sheer number of bosses that show up.

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Last night me and two friends (scrapper, blaster, defender) were doing a Devoured end-of-arc mission that had 2 bosses in pretty much every other room (and there were lots of rooms). About half were +1 (mission was HardBoiled).

Mission took forever and the blaster finally gave up in frustration (she got one-shotted once and two-shotted about 6 times - this with force fields). Maybe there's something special about Devoured, but they tended to gun for the Blaster and Defender (didn't seem to matter how long my scrapper solo'ed the boss - one or two blasts and it'd switch to the blaster).

I really enjoy the new difficulty in 30+ missions and I'd hate to lose that. But there's gotta be a happier middle ground.