Hertz

Here's the plan so far. As of last night, I went back to the drawing board.

First is a list of keywords by color. I list 20 colors or so by Altoholic Monkey's names, so you can click on 'em and make a build with that as your main color. If you know you want your guy in red, click Red and it takes you to a bunch of builds that go with Red.

Second is a list of keywords by power. If you want to make your costume match your powers, you pick the power set, and see a bunch of colors that match that power's color.

Third is a list of keywords by theme. You know you want your character to have a certain look, you pick the keyword and there's a bunch of color matches there under that theme. The themes I have listed so far: angelic, demonic, patriotic, military, mysterious, magical, bold, playful, romantic, professional, cadaverous, spectral, metallic, rainbow, slimy, stormy, earthy, leafy, sinister, powerful, hazardous, tribal, gothic, and a few others I can't recall right now.

Last is a list of keywords by enemy. What I want to do here is list the various enemies and the color themes they use. If you want to make yourself look like a Paragon Protector, or an Outcast Cooler, or a Troll, then it'd tell you what colors to use.

So...

a Does this sound useful?
b What other keywords should I do?
c Who can help gather screenshots of the various bad guys in COH and COV so I can color match them?

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Skin Tones w/ tritanopia (uncommon blue/yellow defecit)
Costume Colors w/ tritanopia (uncommon blue/yellow defecit)

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I believe "costume colors w/ tritanopia" was mis-linked. Should've been to coh-06.jpg instead. If I'm right, then the quoted link above is fixed.

These are very helpful screenshots. Now I can be sure that I'm giving people advice on the colors I know they can't differentiate — the blue and yellow colors of the Angelic build come to mind.

On the other hand, maybe I need to be more specific with what kind of colors I'm mixing and how I'm using them. According to those filters, you can't really see the difference in some of the colors well enough to distinguish them. I might need to add a description line or something that describes the costume in real colors, rather than just having a picture of it.

Okay, this isn't pretty, but it's sort of what I had in mind. The web layout looks like an Embalmed did it (after he exploded) but it gets the idea across.

Here's some color keywords. I've only started on a couple of keywords so far, but I wanted to make sure this was sort of along the right... track thing.

Would something like this be of use to people?

Oh, yes, I had planned to use the color chart as a way to reference certain colors by name.

The names are very useful for people who already know what they're looking for. Hopefully with a list of "recommended combinations" they'll know what to look for.

Besides, having a palette of recommended combinations even helps people who aren't color-blind, just fashion-blind. You wouldn't believe what colors were picked as official SG colors in some groups I've seen.

I like Method 2 as well — it doesn't blatantly encourage trademark infringement.

Is there anybody that does need a way to find two colors that match, or even three?

I have thought of two ways that might be done, and I'm willing to put it together.

Method 1. Show a bunch of examples of existing fashion, superhero costumes, uniforms, etc., and indicate what colors they are on this handy chart. F'rinstance, "here's Captain Amurrikan from Marvelous Comics, he wears an X bodysuit with Y trim and Z-colored stars. And coming down the catwalk is Paragon's own Miss Liberty, who is wearing A and B, with C."

Method 2. Provide some key words like "magical," "romantic," "soothing," "tropical," "professional," "patriotic," "military," and stuff. Give multiple examples specific color swatches that match those key words.

I'm good with color, so please do let me know if there's any way I can help.

How about if (in PVP only) Defenders, Corruptors and Blasters exploded when they were one-shot by a player? You know, PBAOE extreme damage of their primary set damage type, like the way COT mages explode, except it can't be interrupted, autohit, range of 100 feet.

That's be a great way to respond to an Assassin Strike: blow up the assassin. I guarantee it'd make ASing squishies a lot less fun.

I'm joking, I'm joking.

...I think.

If I were to suggest a way out of the Prestige bind, I would suggest some kind of formula that assumes the "average" intended SG size pays some intended amount of Prestige for any purchase. As SG size increases past that average, prices go up very slowly, so there is an advantage to bringing in more people: each person has to work less hard to pull his weight.

On the other hand, as the SG size goes below the "average" intended size, prices drop somewhat rapidly. Not to zero, of course; there would be a minimum price for a 1-person SG, not free but certainly attainable.

What an interesting thread. The OP doesn't want to play the blame game, because the people to blame (himself and the retailer) can't make kiss the boo-boo make it better.

Instead he wants the corporation to instantly revise its entire schedule of employee work times and put a full complement of GMs on for the weekend, open early, build and debug servers weeks in advance of the promised date, and in general have things ready just in case some mope accidentally on purpose gets hold of a copy early because, you know, that one guy paid his fifty bucks so he deserves to play right now (even if the game isn't available) or he'll kick his widdle feetses.

It's threads like this that make me realize how much I like shortbread cookies.

You know, the striped chocolatey ones you can dip in milk? Yeah, striped shortbread cookies. Oh, and those little white cookies with the chocolate frosting on 'em, can't remember what they're called, but I get 'em at the bakery department at Safeway. I also kind of like the Rice Krispie assortment box too except when they have something silly like Spongebob Sprinkles. I'd rather have the chocolate drizzle ones or the plain ones, yum yum.

I also kinda like the Pecan Shortbread cookies but if I don't have any milk in the house I don't get 'em.

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Who said anything about causing falling damage? I thought you just wanted to be on higher ground for the tactical advantage.

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And who said anything about high ground as a tactical advantage? Not the poster I quoted: he specifically said Teleport would have a use in PVP, because one could find a tall building and use Teleport Foe.

Call me crazy, but when a player teleports one's foe to the top of the building with him, he loses the high ground, yes?

The only way I think that original post could be interpreted was as a suggestion of falling damage. And yes, even with Superjump on, falling from the top of those skyscrapers in Steel does hurt quite a lot, and the damage cannot be resisted. That would certainly be an advantage against any character with high resists to conventional damage.

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Heh, I guess you never got that level 5-8 mission to hunt Circle of Thorns in Kings Row. You learn to get up the tall buildings without a travel power, oh do you learn. %$^#% CoT and their stupid rooftop rituals.

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Nope, I've done that mission more times than I care to vomit. Those buildings are hardly tall enough to do any serious damage except to level 6 players hunting COTs.

Now hop to the top of the skyscrapers in Steel, without a travel power, without falling to your own death, without getting to Hover as a safety net, while people are hunting you. I'm not sure it'll be as easy as the old 'port-the-level-8-newbie-off-the-edge trick.

I can see it done, as I said, with two people using Teleport Foe on one another, leapfrog-porting the other to the next-highest windowsill.

It brings up an interesting point, though. Without a travel power at all, you can't control which way you jump. Combat Jumping allows this. Will it do so in the arena (under the optional no-travel-power rules)?

Super Jumping grants a nice reduction to falling damage. Will it do so in Arena PVP under those rules?

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Maybe no def bonuses, but Posi did specifically mention that Teleport Foe would still work in No Travel Powers mode. So that is something at least. Possibly a very nice something if you are fighting on a map with nice tall buildings.

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Sure. Now if you can explain to me how you'll get to the top of that nice tall building without yourself having a travel power...

That's really the only thing I can consider to be a problem. Even if the "No Travel Powers" option is selected, a hero and villain each with Teleport Foe could find a way to use their powers cooperatively and leapfrog-teleport each other somewhere they would otherwise be incapable of reaching.

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BOTH fixing the solo/low setting missions to having no bosses AND fixing the bosses back to their old more puny selves, isn't this like solving the same problem twice - or have I misunderstood something here?

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I believe Statesman already answered this, if obliquely: when there is the option to drop/cancel/abort a mission in progress, then they will revisit boss difficulty.

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Just a general sort of brainstorm: what if you could take a mission which creates an instanced zone, with access permitted to two teams - one hero team and one villain team?

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Well, of course. Destroying things in instanced zones is about the only practical way I can think of for things to be destroyed without re-writing public zones every tick to update all the current carnage. Missions, allowing both Hero and Villain types to play each others' foils, would be a very good way to do this, as you suggest.

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Just some thoughts. Oh, and to Fishwan: Excellent post. I started reading about the motivations and my jaw dropped. Great job!

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Thank you! I'm not sure it carries any weight with developers, and they may well have their own reasons for retaining the Origin magic/mutation/etc for Villains, but I hope it gets them thinking about possibilities other than the Origins we get as heroes.

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I don't have time to read nine pages, so I'm sorry if this has been said before.

One betrayal is not enough.

Referencing the comics (which ought to always been the first reference for game mechanics like this) there is precedent for characters switching back and forth a number of times.

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You assume too much; I'm not completely ignorant of comic book storylines or popular themes in literature. Whether or not an element has precedent in comic lore has no bearing on whether or not the resulting system can be exploited. It seems apparent that Villains will have subtly different power sets than Heroes, and any Hero who falls into evil ways must slightly alter his build in order to fit the Villain sets available. Permitting characters to become Evil, then Good is essentially a free character respec for Good, by turning evil and back, and a free respec for Evil by falling a second time. I fear this would be the case unless, of course, the developers are careful not to let this happen. They have already said flatly they do not propose to exchange uberness for real-world cash, so giving two free respecs to purchasers of City of Villains sounds like walking that thin line.

The idea works, as lore, for those players primarily interested in telling a story. Some players will not be interested in the story potential but only in how the mechanics work, what benefits can be extracted, and where the loopholes are.

It may be possible to design supporting game mechanics that limit those exploits. What exactly those mechanics are, none of us can say, because there are many assumptions being made about how COV works in the first place; and we may not agree that two free respecs is an exploit at all. I lean toward restriction at the cost of story, but if good game mechanics can be devised, the three-betrayals idea could be very useful.

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2: My statement was that his mentality is that he views everyone as "lesser" and deserves to die, but not that he would kill everyone. After all no one, who doesn't leave room for alliances, survives, despite how physically powerful they are.

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Sorry about the name gaffe.

However, you were clearly talking about Ultimate Evil -- your words, my caps -- which does NOT leave room for allies, in my opinion. Any evil which compromises cannot be ultimate. As Ultimate Evil I'm thinking of Cthulhu, Sauron, Senator Palpatine, and George Steinbrenner rolled up into one.

A character, less powerful but of the same temperament, who is anti-social and possibly psychotic who merely wants to kill or destroy is clearly a Chaos villain in the way I envisioned it. If you disagree, or think there should be an additional category to account for your concept, please explain how such a villain's contacts and missions would be materially different from Chaos as I have it.

Bear in mind, of course, that in City of Heroes, nobody has to do missions if they choose not to. They can simply hunt the streets for likely targets. That a Villain undertakes a role in Chaos doesn't necessarily mean he must work for anybody or in any system. Also bear in mind that I'm not the designer and it doesn't cost me any money to change my mind; we're only hashing through the conceptual bits in case the devs are listening.

The more I play this game, and see the interactions between villain groups, the more I wonder if the devs aren't already thinking along these lines. (I mean, Lord Recluse mused earlier that he must have forgotten... to have me rubbed out? Oh, no!)

I might have been wrong about the Circle of Thorns. All of their rituals with captured citizens have comments like "Soon you will be one of us" and "prepare for your transformation." Are they not Power villains, but self-transforming Ego villains?

If no, no wonder they were trying to put together a deal on technomagic with the Freakshow. Yes, magic for the Freakshow, another set of Ego villains. Interesting.

That would explain why the Vahzilok, the Clockwork, and the Circle of Thorns are all involved in the Positron Task Force...

I love the layouts of Faultline and Boomtown, Faultline particularly. Both of them have unforgiveably bad location and unfriendly inhabitants (Faultline particularly).

Boomtown has a low level of 12 and is in the extreme north end of Steel Canyon where the level 19s spawn. This puts it as far as possible away from the Yellow Line (extreme southeast corner) and hospital (extreme southwest corner). When I first get the mission to go to Boomtown and hunt Clockwork, I put it off for several levels, because it's not very safe to run through Steel Canyon at level 12. And dying in Boomtown? You have to run back through the gauntlet again. Once you actually get to level 14 or 15 and you have your travel powers, you're starting to think about heading off somewhere else. Boomtown does have Lost and Vahz and Clockwork for some irritating status effects, but there are also Trolls and 5th Column for mostly knockdowns and the odd DOT.

Faultline is the same. Entry level is level 14, but it's at the extreme south end of Skyway City where the level 20s spawn. It's almost as far away as it could be from the Yellow Line and the hospital. As long as we're pointing out that Faultline is empty because it's death for Superspeeders, I might as well mention that you can't even get most Superspeeders as far as Skyway, where Faultline connects from. The only people there are generally trying to put together that Synapse Task Force or hunting in the north end. By level 18 or 19, big enough groups can bottom-feed off the low-level Warriors and Tsoo in Talos anyway.

Because of the distance to the hospital from those zones, even if it were possible to get a group together there, they also fall apart with surprising speed.

Someone already pointed out that at those levels, Tankers have barely begun to resist things like Negative and Energy, and Clockwork and Vahz simply aren't worth the effort, the long run from the hospital, the dangerous run through 5+ territory, or the hazards of terrain for the same XP and a nice view.

It's a pity, really, because some of the best exciting combat I've ever seen in COH was standing on the edge of a huge, monstrous cliff in Faultline, our heels over the edge, fighting off a massive double-wave of Clockwork, with several bosses. There was nowhere for us to go, and the three of us fought like maniacs to keep from being killed there or swept over the edge. Great fun.

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That's a great idea, except for one big drawback -- it seems to depend on a pyramid structure. You couldn't have 10,000 level 40 villains determined to do the same thing if they have to depend on 100 level 5 villains to do it.

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I see your concerns with this. Given that the level 50 villain could himself go out and complete those missions with a level 5 alt on the same server, I'm not sure how worried to be about it (yet). I'm sure the developers have good solid statistics for COH on how many player accounts are active in the last 30 days, how many of those players have at least one level 50, what the cross-server playing rate is, and so on. Ultimately, their numbers would dictate if the idea is feasible.

It seems likely that many level 50 villains will move on to some other game ('dude im gona go play the F4raGLE ROCK MMO its gonna PWN!!!'). Other level 50s will start lowbie alts. Others will enjoy the mastermind aspect of the games and plant missions, and others will duke it out in hands-on PVP. The ones who fail to leave may dabble in all three.

That kind of Supervillain end-game would probably not be the only way for a player to advance, merely the only way for a player to tell a story and pick up clever and distinctive badges. I also don't see any Supervillain-spawned missions as replacing lowbie content, but as supplementary optional content, supergroup-based content, whatever.

If Supervillains at those high levels could act in concert, joining a consortium with mutual goals, the pyramid collapses at the top again.

Yes, in this thread it has been mentioned several times that there are gradients of goodness and evil in the real world, and in real stories, which are not reflected in the game mechanics presented here. Given that the computer itself does not understand player motivation -- it can only provide player choices -- I'm not sure we're at the point where characters can have the power to break game mechanic rules but claim they were doing it for heroic intentions, or vice-versa to adopt an arrest-the-bad-guys code but do it as a villainous vigilante. Your suggestions are welcomed on how to code those specific behaviors into game mechanic choices while keeping griefing at bay.

The Villain endgame could (and in my opinion, should) permit the super-villain to set up his own few network of contacts and load them with missions for smaller villains. To maintain their uniqueness, these contacts would have to have a large number of choices to pick from: attitudes, variable targets and goals, many different ways of speaking and blanks to insert those targets and goals, costume and "look" choices, and so on. The Villain could put them in his Superbase in an outer foyer where other players could access them.

Of course, most of it would have to be automated or computer calculated, especially rewards, otherwise you get missions like 'use this temporary atomic megadeath power on one Hellion and win 150,000 influence and 2,000,000 XP.'

That would make for a fun villain endgame, depending on where one decides the 'endgame' is. Level 40? Level 50? If you set it at 50, what endgame is left when levels cap at 75?

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A Chairface reference! Excellent!

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Was not the Ottercreekite reference enough?

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My main concern with City of Villains is not what origins or archetypes I can play - my concern is all story/content related. ... I would prefer to have more origins and archetypes for villains in order to give players more room to spread out. ... There is no reason we can't split it up to account for differences within each concept.

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No, there is no reason why we couldn't, at least on this message board bull session. If we wanted to create something likely to be implemented we have to acknowledge some practical realities such a how long each additional sub-faction would take to code, to populate with contacts, to write missions for, to balance, or whatever.

Another limitation the design team faces is that they will never create enough distinct factions to satisfy all tastes or all imaginations; and that "telling a story" is really outside the grasp of any pre-fabricated set of missions unless it is the devs telling a story to us.

I might be able to think of some tools that would assist players to become more... diverse in their choices. What do you think of this?

First, you subdivide each of the five major Goals into splinter groups. (I would say into five each, for the symmetry, but I haven't really tried it yet.) Name the splinter groups and give them distinct flavors. Money splinters could be art collectors, real estate barons, money hoarders, etc; Chaos could be anti-government, anti-industry, anti-banking, or just plain destructive. Populate each splinter group with splinter-specific missions and contacts.

Next, permit players to select which of those contacts they will deal with. Track the missions they take (and complete). The character will have a running tally of the number of objectives completed for each splinter group: banks burgled, businesses blown up, governments graffit'd, whatever.

Players who stick with a particular flavor of Chaos (or Money or whatever) could be rewarded for their dedication to a specialty, with a badge, perhaps with an accolade at the higher levels. Imagine a badge like Anarchist or Mogul or Connoisseur or Dictator! Accolades, of course, would have to be unique to each group but not unbalancing. The Crey Ice Pistol with the mega-long recharge springs to mind.

You might even reward players who show a generalist attitude toward all kinds of Chaos, someone who is pretty much anti-anything across the board.

The missions the player chooses for himself should be far more important to a character's personal tally than the missions he goes on with friends, otherwise each character could be eligible for 25 separate accolades (5 goals x 5 splinter groups) if he constantly teams up and tries to farm these bonuses; or perhaps he should be limited to one or two; or perhaps a Money villain can never achieve any Chaos or Power accolade and only nibble at the smaller adjoining Ego and Domination badges.

This wouldn't allow you to tell a story with your character, or to invent your own missions and objectives, but it might be a good tool to show other players what choices you have made for yourself in the past.

I would not make these badges available to street hunting, if they are to be meaningful and distinctive. Any 50th level monkey can sit in a place like Perez Park and shoot a hundred Bone Daddies or Gears or Embalmeds.

That's my off-the-cuff response to giving players some more story control. What do you think?

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Im really sorry if someone brought this up, Id also like to state that I dont know how this could be implemented or if it world/could work.......what about the Force of Nature? Something a being like Galactus, I wouldnt really classify Galactus as Evil. He needs planets to live, or something like the Beyonder that wanted to learn about our reality etc. Just wanted to throw that out there if it wasnt already..

Sorry if it was mentioned.

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It has kinda been mentioned, in part.

Someone asked about Ultimate Evil, or a character whose idea is to depopulate the planet of every living thing. The idea of a force so powerful that it would obliterate life on Earth is unplayable, because PVP is consensual; one must either throw out consensual PVP (which the devs already stated will be in COV) or throw out that character's range of power. And a blow-up-the-world villain, in a shared universe, cannot be allowed to succeed without angering thousands of paying customers ("okay, the world ended, so we're wiping the server and everybody starts over at level 1 with no influence"). The problem is that there are no intermediate playable goals: we have no other cities, states, counties or provinces, or even other countries. The city is the world for all practical purposes. The blow-up-the-world type is all-or-nothing where the All part has been taken away.

Regarding a character like the Beyonder, a nigh-all-powerful observer who isn't necessarily evil, what could your missions possibly be? If you had the power of the Beyonder, no mission would be a challenge; would that be a fun game for you?

I admit it would be fun to play an impish godling such as Q (from Star Trek) if I had the ability to create unique, bizarre missions, such as the Nottingham visit in Q-Pid, and dump players into them, but that's only because I have a broad streak of Dungeon Master in me. That would certainly keep me entertained, and I think it isn't entirely impossible that an MMO may eventually permit this sort of in-game GMing by players. I don't think it's here yet.

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Zombra said, I agree that Insanity doesn't work in this system (though I think I suggested it earlier).

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Thank you for understanding what I've been trying to do here.

If any further clarification is needed, Oniongum, Insanity is a why. Greed is a why. Other things such as sadism, revenge, and so on are whys. For all practical purposes, there is no game effect to why so I stuck with something more concrete: who do you get missions from, who do you fight, what are your missions.

Villains might want to blow up the statue of Atlas for a hundred reasons. One is a disgruntled sculptor who came in second for the civic beautification bid. One hates Atlas for killing his grandfather, who was part of the German invading force into Paragon. One thinks the aluminum structure is an attenuating repeater for the Orbiting Mind Control Lasers under the control of the Gnomes of Zurich via the Boy Sprouts. It is still essentially the same mission.

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Ego (while I think it is the weakest suggested Goal category) clearly caters well to the insane. Chaos is a good bet too, but it's different. And clearly you can have an insane guy trying to take over the world.

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I agree that Ego is a weak category for villains, which is a shame, because I can think of several Ego-class villains in literature. (I'm not as much a comic afficionado as some here.)

The Wicked Witch from Snow White ("mirror, mirror, on the wall") and Salmissra from the Belgariad are both Ego villains, both of whom are obsessed with their own beauty. Any supervillain who ever wanted to dedicate a forty-story statue to himself in the heart of the capital city, or use a giant laser to sign his name on the moon, is an Ego villain. Megalomania is a great villain schtick, but I need to find the right way to encapsulate it so it has good, playable missions and logical contacts.

Wait. No, I don't. This is just blue-skying an idea, isn't it? Well, maybe among us we can come up with some ideas anyway. It's gonna be a long while until City of Villains comes out.

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Your chaos classification is villainy without reason. that's insanity.

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No, my Chaos classification includes villainy without reason. It also includes things such as eco-terrorism and ultra-libertarianism, as I said. Those certainly aren't without their reasons. It would also include such "villains" as Robin Hood, someone who broke laws and thumbed his nose at the establishment because he thought, in his mind, he was doing a greater good.

Who here thinks the inspiration animation should a Captain-Kirk-resisting-the-mind-control-of-the-evil-aliens stagger?

1. Make both hands into claws.
2. Hold up your forearms so your hands are near your temples.
3. Stagger around with a constipated face.
4. Say, "Must... break... mind control... but... too... stupid."

I think I answered this in the previous post, MooMah, but here goes.

I believe that Power (the quest for raw power) has to be bounded by Chaos and Domination. Power is a neutral thing and what one does with it shouldn't be handed down from on high.

Also, there are only 5 points to this star; logically, Chaos cannot oppose Money and Domination and Power. Clearly, Chaos opposes Domination.

For the other I chose Chaos to oppose Money because things of value (vintage sports cars, currency, objets d'art, 'Revenge of the Jedi' t-shirts) only have a value relative to other things which can be bought and sold. Gold is valuable because we say it is, ditto diamonds (because the supply is controlled by a cartel); they have few practical uses compared to, say, wheat or beef or the skills of a carpenter.

What would you have Chaos directly oppose? What would you have it allied with?