Hanged_Man

No you won't.

If you have PA slotted w/ 6 recharge, it's basically permanent. If you don't have PA slotted w/ 6 recharge, you'll be wailing out so much damage you won't care.

ST is the worst "Oh [censored]" power in the game. I'm surprised that, on balance, it's saved you from debt more often than it's killed you, but maybe you just use it better than everybody else I've ever talked to.

Kewl, we can be beekeepers! Yay.

That's a very creative way to use ST, though. Kudos to you!

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Well Hanged_Man, as I said and you must have missed, there will be times to use it and times not to use it.

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Times to use it:

1. Team is getting too much experience and killing mobs too easily. Time for ST!

2. Need to work on my Debt Badge.

3. Want a kewl effect for a dance party.

4. Want to show how I can get 16 pets out at once.

5. Umm. Can't think of another one. (not entirely true, Respec might be handy, and some trials)

Edit - Lighten up? I'm just telling you how very, very wrong you are. I'm sorry I can't think of "nice" ways to do that, but I really don't know how to say "Holding -con mobs is a waste of time," any nicer than that, and people still seem to take issue with it.

That's a lot of scatter, unless it's Terrify is only single-target, in which case it's almost no control.

Either way, marginal at best. It's just old ST, with cower.

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Again, like all the other ST apologists, you fail to comprehend the futility of controlling -con mobs. If for some reason controlling -con mobs is important to you, I suggest you post your build, or your strategy, on the Controller forums so we can help you be effective.

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If ST worked the way geko is saying it is going to be changed to, then this strategy would have been reasonable from 26 to 32 (pre phantasms) for ill/rad:

1. Set up near the spawn point
2. Hit a good center target with RI
3. Hit the anchor with blind
4. Cast the PA at the anchor

then

5. Cast it into the group just prior to the PA evaporating.

Let it lock everyone down while you wait for PA to recharge.

or

5. Cast it on yourself (make sure the group is slightly out of range of the terrify)

When the PA expires, instead of having to run for it (or even if you do) the ST will act to kick them back a bit. Also, in larger groups runners do escape from PA aggro - especially in overlapping groups.


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How would that be better than just slotting PA for recharge, and recasting PA? Assuming you were worried about controlling even con and lower mobs, that is. (If you didn't slot PA for recharge, anything even con or lower is dead long before you need to worry about recasting PA.)

This is the key problem w/ the "new" ST. It only affects things that are uselessly weak in any meaningful way. Anything that is actually a threat to you, and so needs to be controlled, is only scattered.

We have strategies for "using" this, from the old ST days. You can cast ST behind the mobs, so they'll tend to run toward you. You can use ST to create a "safe" zone from melee mobs. But those are all weak.

I'm OK w/ ST being a bad power, but let's just not pretend that it isn't bad.

You're high.

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1) Lower level/ranked foes will tremble in its presence.

I group a lot and a lot of times my team mates are lower level than I. What's lower level to me is even/higher level than them. This is a good thing.

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So it'd be a bad thing if higher con also trembled? I don't get your point. Besides, at L39 you're phantasms should be killing -con mobs before you even finish casting ST. Let alone your Phantom Army decoys who also should be kicking [censored]. If that's not the case for you, I suggest you ask for build advice on the Controller forum.

*Controlling -con mobs. Sheesh.*

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2) Terrify attack power will cause higher level foes to run away FOR A VERY SHORT DISTANCE. And THEN stop and tremble in fear. If this works as Geko has stated, this can be a very good thing when used in the right situation. Once again not every power can be the best in every situation.

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Yeah, if that situation is, "Gee, things are too easy for my group. I'll amp up the difficulty a little bit." The number of times fleeing mobs are good is:

1. Respec trial (all the time).
2. AV's surrounded by a bunch of mobs (sometimes)

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Ok, so in SOME situations the melee hero will have to move a few feet over to it/them to start whacking on it/them. In the meantime, that foe/foes is not attacking anyone and Blasters are blasting the snot out of it/them. I'm trying to find a bad thing about this but I swear I can't.

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Against -con mobs. How often at L39 does a Blaster or Scrapper fail to one shot any number of -con mobs? The Fear effect just makes things more annoying, since it singles some out of the herd.

Listen to me. You won't believe me, but listen. This is what's going to happen eventually. You're going to use ST against something that can one-shot you. It's not going to be a piddly little -con mob you couldn't care less about. And that mob is going to run away, and you're going to forget about it. And that mob is going to run back, and one-shot you.

It will happen.

* * *

Again, like all the other ST apologists, you fail to comprehend the futility of controlling -con mobs. If for some reason controlling -con mobs is important to you, I suggest you post your build, or your strategy, on the Controller forums so we can help you be effective.

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Why do you think that made Illusion overpowered? Seriously, why?

Unlike Fearsome Stare (which unlike a lot of you, I've actually used), it was difficult to target the fear effect, adn the fear effect got reapplied every 6 seconds. Which meant you got shot every 6 seconds. By a lot of mobs. The only way to avoid that was . . . to control the mobs w/ Flash or Phantom Army.

IOW, yeah, ST was a great control power, if you were already controlling the mobs.

*rolls eyes*

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I never had problems getting all the mobs with one ST. Place the PA in the middle, and the ST a few seconds later on the side of the group. The cone would hit them all. Reapplying the cone did not cause them to retaliate, and if PA woke one up, it would retaliate at the PA.

It's true that ST was a weak opener given that it would draw one shot from everyone (but only one shot). However, if you could take that one salvo, then ST alone could perma-lock a group of enemies... and if you opened with PA, then PA would suck the initial salvo, and ST would then perma-lock them, and nobody would ever shoot at you. Keep them locked down and throw in PA as it recharged, and you could slowly kill a group without ever seeing a shot fired back at you. If you prefer to do it yourself, use Blind on a target, then SW him, while ST keeps the others busy.

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Again, a great control power . . . if something else does the controlling. The mobs won't shoot at you as long as PA sucks the aggro. If you waited 24 seconds for teh full cycle of ST fear attacks, you debuffed the mobs down to nothing, but that's pretty much AV's and +4 bosses. Nothing else lives that long.

And, of course, you still have 30 seconds of PA left. Minimum.

So what was the point of this again? A control power that doesn't control unless you use a more powerful control power first is useful because . . . why?

I don't care what they do w/ ST, as long as:

1. It affects +con mobs;

2. It doesn't scatter too much;

and

3. It doesn't generate too much aggro for the Illusionist.

Cloak of Fear would be great, Fearsome Stare would be great. even Cloak of Fear plus a single-target "run away" power would be fine. Current ST is just a fun way to get killed while also borking your team.

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ST, in the early days of I3, was overpowered

*snip*

a long-lasting, perma-duration, stackable immobilize
a great debuff, with the drawback that it takes some time to stack its debuff effects
a "slow firing" effect, similar to a slow power, that forced the mobs to fire back at a lower rate.


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Why do you think that made Illusion overpowered? Seriously, why?

Even if all that stuff was kewl (which is arguable, given how ST sucked so much aggro to you), it didn't make Illusion overpowered. When ST was worth a loaf of stale bread, it was still the 5 or 6th best power in Illusoin, after Phantasm, Phantom Army, Flash, Group Invisibility, and Blind. Probably worse than Deceive and Spectral Wounds, too.

Unlike Fearsome Stare (which unlike a lot of you, I've actually used), it was difficult to target the fear effect, adn the fear effect got reapplied every 6 seconds. Which meant you got shot every 6 seconds. By a lot of mobs. The only way to avoid that was . . . to control the mobs w/ Flash or Phantom Army.

IOW, yeah, ST was a great control power, if you were already controlling the mobs.

*rolls eyes*

Kewl, thanks Statesman.

I wouldn't mind the original ST, if only it didn't direct so much aggro to the controller. Really, that was the only fix they needed.

I think a lot of you are missing the key part of new ST:

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ST has a Cloak of Fear. Lower level/ranked foes will tremble in its presence.

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IOW, even rank and better mobs can only be Terrified.

I don't know about you guys, but by the mid-20's I wouldn't touch an even-con mob with a 10' pole. They weren't worth the trouble. So why do you want a control power that only meaningfully interacts w/ low-level cons?

It'll be interesting to test, I'm hoping it plays out better.

Thanks, Geko! Looks better.

But maybe I don't understand. It sounds like ST will now have an aura that will affect lower ranked foes, but not +con foes. So white, blue, green, or grey minions, -1 lts, and -2 bosses will be affected. Or will it affect even level bosses?

Then ST has Terrify, that could affect any mob. This will make them run away, but not very far, and then they will cower.

That sounds better, but ST still sounds underwhelming. By L28, if you're worried about what even cons do, you're not playing your Illusionist right, and that sounds like about all it'll affect. I'm looking forward to testing it out.

Maybe I don't understand. IS this the new ST?

ST will now have an aura that will affect lower ranked foes, but not +con foes. So white, blue, green, or grey minions, -1 lts, and -2 bosses will be affected. Or will it affect even level bosses?

Then ST has Terrify, that could affect any mob. This will make them run away, but not very far, and then they will cower.

That sounds better, but ST still sounds underwhelming. By L28, if you're worried about what even cons do, you're not playing your Illusionist right, and that sounds like about all it'll affect. I'm looking forward to testing it out.

Why not just be glad that you get to help a bunch of people test out new powers they think are cool? Debt's not that big a deal.

Thanks, STates. This sounds perfecto.

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I could not hold a +1 Rulari boss (the eye thing) with *three* Dark Servants and my own hold power (that has a hold duration in it.) Or if the holds took, it wore off almost immediately.

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IMX, those eye-guys are highly resistance to holds. Are you noticing this w/ other mobs? Say, Crey meaty Council or Nemesis?

Please post on the Controller or Defender forums. I haven't noticed any changes to holds in general in I3, although I haven't been playing my controllers much. Several mobs seem to have increased resistance . . .

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So it seems some Boss's although thougher are still
within reach of the solo players.

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Some solo players. The difference between solo and non-solo builds is even more stark than before.

Subby can still solo AV's (I've been told - don't have the patience to try it after I3). Not so for my Blaster.

Statesman, thanks for explaining the thinking behind the boss changes. It makes a lot of sense, and IMO the changes seem to be working well. I don't mind having to team up for some missions, although I'd like to see more options for getting help. Pilcrow had a great idea to have contacts essentially act as "Help Wanted" posters if you're having trouble finishing a mission solo . . .

I have to second the concerns about squishies getting one-shotted by bosses. It doesn't feel very heroic, and is very frustrating, to get killed w/o having a chance to do anything.

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Eden is another wasteland. Its a neat-looking zone. However, I almost never see anyone in there.

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Oooh - don't change Eden! I soloed from 36 to 39 there. Tons of mobs to pick up, a lot of 'em easy Crey pickin's. And no one else to steal my stuff!

Just like Crash Site. It's like being the first person at Costco!

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I think a solution to Rikti Crash Site and Peregrine Island (not enough and too much) would be to place another city zone (not hazard zone) inbetween the Crash Site and Indy Port (there's plenty of room).

Make it 35-44 or 40-50, and have it include Carnies and Malta (another place to hunt each). It would also include another entrance to the Crash Site (further north of the current one), which could have its own DMZ.

In addtion to this, put another Ferry in Indy Port near the entrance to this new city zone (which could be around the Tech store (across the water from Bricks), so that there would be another way to Peregrine Island that doesn't involve Talos (and it would be near this other high level zone... plus Bricks, if the new zone contains 35+ enemies).


Perhaps in the future...

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Awesome idea!

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However, when people refer to the AOE 'problem' it seems like the problem is 'Blasters can kill mobs quick! But I can't do that! Why should they breeze through so many minions so quickly?'

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AFAICT, the "problems" w/ AoE attacks are mostly alpha attacks. Alpha attacks kill mobs before they can strike back, which destroys the "glass cannon" game balance for Blasters (a dead mob can't kill you, right?). Also messes up some Tank and Scrap balance b/c they can rake in much more Xp than intended. W/o AoE attacks that can take out big groups of mobs, it's not that big a deal. But the AoE attacks allow heros to take out huge groups of mobs solo, which was not intended.

AFAICT, the hp changes were intended to get rid of the alpha strike by making mob hp>capped AoE damage. The intent was to make AoE blasts require teams - some damage mitigation - to make it work on big groups, b/c otherwise too much damage would filter back.

It doesn't work as intended, though. Subby for one can still plow through teh same mobs as before, just a little slower. And w/ more net XP/minute. AoE blasters can just attack -1 level mobs and do the same thing. Worse, single-target blasters adn support AT;s are totally screwed.

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This is why I support the HP increase for minions. It doesn't make the hero weaker, it just makes enemies a little tougher. I understand why the devs want to do this (to remove the City of Blasters mentality with overwhelming AoE attacks), and I think avoiding the simple nerf approach is the better of the two options.

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This sort of fallacy is driving me *nuts!* The HP increase is a nerf. Here's why.

1. Problem = AoE attacks (particularly alpha strikes) are dominating combat and making combat too easy.

2. Solution? Raise Mob HP and XP. Now alpha strikes are hindered.

3. Problem? Now all other attacks are hindered, too.

4. Result? Everybody gets nerfed, but AoE attackers can make up for it a little easier than single target attackers.

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IMO, the hp increase is a fiasco. It doesn't have much impact on the game issues it was intended to address. For example, it has almost no impact on Subby. None. He solos exactly the same on Test as on Live, except on Test he can't take on +4 bosses. Which I hardly ever do anyway, so no big deal.

For AoE blasters, the HP increase means one more attack - at best - or you attack one level lower. Yellow instead of orange minions, orange instead of red, or whatever. XP is very little different.

The paradox is that missions are actually better solo for these builds b/c you can get decent XP. Before, missions only really were fun in teams so everybody tended to want groups fro them. So really, the main impact was to make solo builds less likely to team for missions.

For builds that couldn't solo, like pre-32 trollers (non-illusion) and Tanks, the changes mean you suck. You are now absolutely worhtless as a damage dealer, which means having a Tank and a troller, or 2 Tanks or 2 trollers, is now worthless. IOW, the support classes have an even tougher time soloing.

The mob changes aren't working. They don't fix the problem, and instead cause more.

There's only 1 way into most Hazard zones, which makes them harder to access. That's the piont, which ignores the sewers, that go to Boomtown at least IIRC.

IMO, a bigger issue is no SKing. That means when I team Subby w/ my lowb buddies, for example, we can't go hunt in Creys or Eden. So I'm making teams in PI and Bricks and FF, that already ahve too many peeps.

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Creys folley sucks. Big areas w nothing but swarms and monkies. Spawns with level 40 lt's in with 33 mobs, etc. mobs are poorly distributed in level ranges, packs of high level mobs mixed in with lower levels. Groups of 32 and 37 fighting side by side. This zone coudl be good if it wasnt buggy.

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Yeah, STAY OUT OF CREY'S FOLLY! I like all those nice juicy Crey and Freak mobs all for me.

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As for Boomtown, it always seems pretty crowded to me. Faultline is teh suxxor, tho. Even if it was completely flat, why would I want to go to a zone filled w/ Vahz, CoT, and Clocks?

No thanks.