Gotterdamurung

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Often publishers taking over games can lead to vaste sweeping changes they feel is what we want and often is not.


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Yes but usually in this case the publisher buying the IP has not been previously involved in the running of the product. In this case the publisher [NCSoft] has been involved in the development of the IP [COX] since the alpha stage of the game.

From what I can see it appears that NCSoft is keeping the same management team that they have had for some time. They are just now having full authority over the game instead of strong suggestion authority.

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Besides: the Garriott brothers have personal experience with publishers screwing up a game through meddling. (*cough*Ultima9*cough*) If it were another company, I'd be worried, but I think we're safe with NCSoft.

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Does this mean that there will be a bigger development team working on COX or a smaller one? The presants are cool and all but are we losing anything in this deal?

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Everything Ex and LH have said lead me to believe that they're planning to expand the team. It looks like NCSoft is renewing it's commitment to this game, and planning to nurture it's further growth.

Edit: Plus, just look at NCsoft's job page, and how many programming openings they have at the Mountain View location. (CoX's new home) Definately a good sign, as far as I'm concerned.

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That is them either expanding the team or filling the positions of the people who do not want to move to NorCal?!?! Unless their current studio is already around that area...

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Ex said (somewhere) that the new studio's only a few miles from the old one. There's definately evidence, both in the job postings and the press releases, that NCSoft wants to expand the dev team for the game.

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Some of you are looking at it as just a free month, well a month of play time is $15 then the other $35 went to development cost of the game. Essentially we paid the developement cost of a game they eventually gave away for free. Think about how that looks for a second? Yeah I know the game depreciated in value but that is besides the point, those who paid more than $15 for the other game did not just pay for a free month.

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Again, I say the real test is this: if, when you bought the game, there was a big red sticker on it that said "Warning: this game will be given away for free in November of 2007!" would you have still plunked down your $35?

I would have, because I wanted to play it then, when I bought it. It's the same reason I paid $50 for The Orange Box, instead of waiting 2 or 3 years to pick it up in the bargain bin; there are some games that I don't want to wait for.

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They cut Rick Dakan loose (didn't he pre-date Jack?) and they also completely changed the AT system from design to go-live, so in the past they've shown that they are willing to make big directional changes. Be interesting to see where they go in the future and how successful they are.

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True, they have, but from what I've understood, it's always been for the good of their creations. Abandoning City of Heroes to other people (which is what this is) still strikes me as a something more than a big decision. I know it may well be better for the game AND better for Cryptic's other projects at the same time, but it still strikes me as going a little too far in looking for success.

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Yes and no; it's true that Cryptic is losing a voice, but NCSoft has been influencing things for as long as the game's been around, and the people who control the real, day to day changes in the game aren't going anywhere; we've still got Posi, Bab's, Castle, WW, GW, et al, and I don't think they're going to suddenly change their vision of the game just because their paychecks have a different signature.

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Does this mean that there will be a bigger development team working on COX or a smaller one? The presants are cool and all but are we losing anything in this deal?

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Everything Ex and LH have said lead me to believe that they're planning to expand the team. It looks like NCSoft is renewing it's commitment to this game, and planning to nurture it's further growth.

Edit: Plus, just look at NCsoft's job page, and how many programming openings they have at the Mountain View location. (CoX's new home) Definately a good sign, as far as I'm concerned.

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Of course, Im not calling YOU a chump. Im saying I feel like a chump. None of that is an attack on you, personally or collectively. I find it interesting that you took it that way.

I believe my point stands. These bonuses are carefully targeted at three sets of players that NCSoft does not want to leave CoX just because they purchased it. This is a brilliant move, and I would normally applaud it. Except for this curious blind spot on a (for now) ignored fourth set of players.

I would hate for that blind spot to propagate from a couple of bonuses in a purchase announcement to overall direction of the game. If they announce that they are getting rid of the debt system entirely, for example, Ill know it has. And THEN would be the time to consider jumping ship.

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First off, Ex and LH have hinted that there are more "presents" to come; so it might be that there's something coming that you'll love.

Secondly, to everyone who feels "cheated" for paying for both halves, ask yourself this: if you had known, at the time you bought both halves, that you could have gotten half for free if you just waited until today, would you still have bought it? I can honestly say that I would; I've enjoyed playing both for the last 2 years, and I wouldn't have wanted to wait that long to experience the other half of the game.

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There's been nothing *wrong* with the last couple of updates, in the same way that there's nothing wrong with an episode of a sitcom that's just a "clips show" of previous episodes.

Issue 9-11 have been very kewl, but they have also focused on narrow areas of the game that built additional content out of older content.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - almost immeditely after the launch of Issue 8, something scary fell out of the sky and slapped both Cryptic and NCSoft across the face. Plans for the player-voted moonbase/rocket launch sites, NCSoft GM support, a new paid expansion, Villain Epic ATs, a repaired CoP trial, and many other hinted/planned developments suddenly froze in their tracks and the game went off on the tangent of issue 9-11, exploring quick and easy wins without tackling the real difficult stuff they originally had planned.

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Inventions were easy, recycled content? We had a Co-op task force before I-10? Repeatable story arcs are nothing new? Random, zone invasion events are somethign we've seen a lot of in the past? Customizable weapons are old hat?

I'm sorry, but issues 9 through 11 had many things that were, in essence, totally new to the game. They might have re-used some things, (the RWZ, existing missions for flashbacks, etc,) but they all delivered totally new experiences in-game; things you couldn't do before. (And, for the record, I8 was probably one of the least new issues; scanner and safeguard missions were hardly revolutionary, the faultline revamp, while cool, also didn't really introduce anything new; Vet rewards were really the only "new" feature there.)

As far as the rest of it goes: there have been plenty of hints in the last few issues that a moon base and/or space station are coming. (the GvE maps, mentioning them in the I10 story, the space implications of the I11 stories the paid expansion is being given to us for free in this series of issues, and Posi's already said they are trying for Villain khelds in early 08. (And I personally think that there's foreshadowing of them in I11's story arcs.)

All in all, there have been huge changes to the game since last year at this time; if the devs had announced in January that they were planning all of these things for '07, I wouldn't have believed them. At this point, I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt. Agree with them or not, loot, raids, flashback, new powersets, and power customization (no matter how limited) are things that people have been asking for for a very long time. If anything, I think this year has seen the devs being more sensitive to player demands than any other. (Of course, I've only been here 2 years, so I don't have a huge basis for comparison.)

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I totally agree with this issue oon recyled content packaged with newspaper funny papers' wrapping. And I call on the new leadership to give some concrete plans to address current ingame issues and as well to give a long projection with firm, not vague information on the direction and expectations of the game. We dont want to see this game go down the tubes and in the manner that autoassault went(though it really wasn't that great of a game to begin with).

If they want to take serious leadership, show plan with transparency.

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My guess is, you'll never see particularly concrete announcements about anything further away than the next issue.

The reason is, NCSoft is a publicly traded company, and, as such, the information they share is governed by various laws and regulations. Also, releasing information haphazardly could hurt their stock price if the market feels that they're not being honest, or not following through. Basically, if they say something will be in a particular update, it has to be, or there could be legal or financial consequences. Now, you're probably saying, "Well, that's a good thing; it means they have to deliver on their promises," but that's not the whole story. Imagine they announce something small, like some new, different type of task force. They get in to it, and it turns out, it's a lot harder than they thought. If they hadn't announced it, they could just roll it back, and put it on hold. If they make it public, however, now they're obligated to follow through, even if it means cutting out much more important features that haven't been announced yet, or pushing back the issue 6 months.

A couple of true stories from my own company: (which went public a couple of years ago.)

On our big, new product, a salesman rather carelessly mentioned that a new feature would be in our upcoming release, version 1.5, due out early next year. However, the people higher up determined that the customers we have right now are more interested in other features, and took it out. However, since the word was out there, we have to have that feature in version 1.5 The result? Our 1.5 release gets pushed out, and the Q1 of '08 release is now named 1.4.

Another example of just how far this goes: our sales staff used to have a gong that a salesperson would ring whenever they made a sale. When we went public, that had to stop, because if someone from outside the company was onsite, and heard that, it could be interpreted as a sign about how well (or poorly) we were doing, which would constitute an SEC violation for making semi-private announcements about our sales.

So, as much as it would be nice to know the dev's plans, there really is only so much they can tell us.

Just been scanning through all the pages here, and I haven't seen this mentioned yet:

When will leadership of the Freedom Phalanx pass from Statesman to Captain British?



Sorry, couldn't resist.

I have to say, I'm less concerned about this than I would be if another company were taking over; NCSoft seems to be pretty commited to good games, and frankly, if anyone knows how damaging it can be for a publisher to interfere too much in a game, sacrificing quality for the bottom line, it's the Garriott brothers.

Plus, there's one more ENORMOUS bonus to this: no more whiny forumites who know nothing about software development or the game industry posting long, rambling, incoherent rants about how MUO is killing CoX.

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I feel bad I spent the 3 hrs to get the test server only to find its closed. XD Should have read test forum announcements first.

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It's not really a waste; LH has said they're planning an extensive open beta for this before it goes live, so you'll still get your chance...

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Don't make me do you like I did the loot naysayers, Venture. Don't make me!

Bring it. :P


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Careful, Venture. Thanks to I11, Geko's got a whole lot of new things to hit you with. Sledgehammers, shovels, pipewrenches... this could get ugly.

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..also, no one seems to know what a mudoor is o_o

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George W Bush's spelling of mother?

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An interesting excerpt from the article about Recluse and Manticore:

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“Who were the rebels?” Fish repeated this reporter’s question with a wry smile. “Why, simple drug-traffickers
and freedom fighters. What else would they be?” His shark-like smile and mirrored sunglasses belied his story.

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Anyone who has read Mark Bowden's "Killing Pablo" knows that Colombia is one of the most violent and wild countries on earth. Natives joke that God made Colombia so naturally beautiful that he populated it with the most bloodthirsty men on earth to balance it out. There is a lot of wild territory outside of government and police control, making the jungles a safe haven for drug-traffickers and paramilitary groups. I can't imagine what Recluse and Manticore are searching for or who the mystery "rebels" they're fighting really are, but I have a feeling it's really bad news.

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That whole story is one of the weirdest things we've seen. There are at least 3 sides fighting each other: Recluse & Manti, the mysterious rebels, and the columbian military (with, apparently, the assistance of the CIA.)

Plus, the CIA agent "Fish", with his shark-like grin, sounds an awful lot like Mako.

So Manti & Recluse vs ? vs Mako. Curiouser and Curiouser.

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No, I'm willing to bet that Fish is a reference to the true mastermind behind this, mr. Sean Fish, Head writer, aka God of Lore at Cox

-C.A.

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Possibly, but "shark-like smile?"

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But it does sort of remind me of a standard Game Master (GM) technique for writing adventures. One thing you learn is that you aren't are clever as all of your players put together. So you let you players create their own plots for you. You begin by giving out these teasers which point the players in the direction you want them to go. Then you sit back and let them speculate, imagine, guess all of these plots. You take the ones you like, change them up a bit to keep you players off guard, and then spring "your" plot on them. The players have fun playing. They congratulate themselves on being clever enough in guessing your plots not knowing your little secret.

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Possible, but I'd say unlikely. The trouble is, in software design, the later you make changes, the more expensive they become. I've seen statistics like: the cost of making changes during design = 10 * the cost of making changes during development = 10 * the cost of making changes during QA testing = 10 * the cost of making changes during Beta = 10 * the cost of making changes after release. So it's always considered best practices to get as complete and concrete a design as you can, and then stick to it as much as you can. (In fact, at my company, we actually spend quite a bit of time running designs through QA before dev ever gets their hands on them.)

So, unless the story is cosmetic and tacked on, they likely pinned that down a long time ago. (Of course, Kerensky did mention cosmetic changes, so....)

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An interesting excerpt from the article about Recluse and Manticore:

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“Who were the rebels?” Fish repeated this reporter’s question with a wry smile. “Why, simple drug-traffickers
and freedom fighters. What else would they be?” His shark-like smile and mirrored sunglasses belied his story.

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Anyone who has read Mark Bowden's "Killing Pablo" knows that Colombia is one of the most violent and wild countries on earth. Natives joke that God made Colombia so naturally beautiful that he populated it with the most bloodthirsty men on earth to balance it out. There is a lot of wild territory outside of government and police control, making the jungles a safe haven for drug-traffickers and paramilitary groups. I can't imagine what Recluse and Manticore are searching for or who the mystery "rebels" they're fighting really are, but I have a feeling it's really bad news.

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That whole story is one of the weirdest things we've seen. There are at least 3 sides fighting each other: Recluse & Manti, the mysterious rebels, and the columbian military (with, apparently, the assistance of the CIA.)

Plus, the CIA agent "Fish", with his shark-like grin, sounds an awful lot like Mako.

So Manti & Recluse vs ? vs Mako. Curiouser and Curiouser.

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Nice article.

I know it's too late at this stage if they aren't in, but I'd love to see the Blood of the Black Stream brought into I11. They'd be very unhappy that someone is screwing with the Giant Circuit.

Also, there have already been hints that most zones are going to see at least minor changes as a result of I11.

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Yes. It would be nice if the villain EAT was something other than a rehashed third flavor of the space squids. I doubt there will be wholesale changes to many zones, it would break a lot of story arcs, badge hunts, and the like. I think we will find that temporary protection from temporal disturbances will have been set up and maybe a co-op task force brought in for players to help Recluse and Manticore get the correct timeline reset. Things will likely be back to normal with I12. Just my take on the whole thing.

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Well, we kind of know what's going on there. Posi has said that Villains will get Khelds, and that they're trying for it sometime early next year. (which basically rules it out for I11.) He also said that they won't just be carbon copies of the hero versions, so, hopefully, they'll be different enough to keep them interesting.

As far as further EAT's go, I don't think we can look for those until the villain khelds come out.

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Some of us are reading too much into the articles. We shouldn't speculate on issue 11 by the content of these articles. The world has changed twice already. I'm guessing we will continue to see more articles of our world, each with a different outcome. What we should be looking at is how they were changed.

The reason I'm guessing time travel is that in each article, you can almost pinpoint the exact moment when something in the past changed and has now branched off into a different direction. The first article was easy. The point in time that changed was involving you. You were removed from existence (whether you never got your powers, never born, etc.).

The second article is unrelated to the first. Clearly Recluse did not win his battle with President Marchand and never took over as management in Rogue Isles. Another point that altered history was with Justin Sinclair (aka Manticore). Instead of remaining a hero, he is now a villain. Now that these events have occurred, the first article is now moot. That outcome has already changed.

Again I suspect that we will continue to receive news articles, not relating to the previous one. However each article will show us something in our time has changed by someone altering the past. Butterfly effect.

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Time travel is almost certainly at play, given one of Kerensky's clues on the UK boards. In it, he quoted a (seemingly irrelevant) line from Star Trek: First Contact. The plot of that movie involves the Borg going back in time to eliminate a key figure, and change the present.

I agree with you about the fundamental change bit, but I think that each of the papers has 2 fundamental changes.

For the first two articles, the changes are that your hero didn't stop the outbreak epidemic, and that your villain didn't succeed in breaking out.

For the first change in the second set of articles, I like Zombie_Man's theory. Marchand mentions that he can keep running because the Rogue isles don't have anything like the US's 20th amendment. The trouble is, the 20th amendment doesn't say anything about term limits; basically, all it did was move the date of presidential inaugurations from March to January. It's the 22nd amendment that limits presidents to 2 terms. So why the discrepancy? ZM suggested that it could be because prohibition never happened. That would mean that the 18th and 19th amendments never happened, pushing the term limits amendment back to 20. Now, the history of Paragon says that organized crime got entrenched in the city during prohibition, and that that was the impetus for heroes flocking to the city. Without prohibition, organized crime might not have taken hold, making paragon a safer place, making heroes less necessary, and, perversly, creating a world where Manticore didn't feel the call to defend the innocent.

For the second change, I look at the fact that Aeon seems to be very much out of place. It seems like his being in place at the time of Recluse's attempted coup was the change that let Marchand hang on to power. But Aeon shouldn't have existed yet; he was Carl Egon until Recluse had him "executed" for blowing up his lab on Cap. Therefore, Aeon shouldn't be around unless Recluse succeeded. So for this change, we not only see the effect, (ie, Marchand winning, and surviving) but we also, perhaps, see the cause (Dr. Aeon.)

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I only have one question:

Is this a major content overhaul or just another task force?

Personally, I'm hoping for the former.


Edit: There are days when I just love Google!
Food for thought

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To me, it suggests the flashback system people have been asking for. Only, instead of just "remembering" old contacts, or exemping down, you might get to do their missions in a totally different timeline/dimension/universe.

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O-M-G. I'm calling it. Return of the 5th Column and parallel universe. GOT to be. I'm on cloud nine. I'm kicking puppies. I'm sniffing glue. I'm.. I'm... I'm just so HAPPY

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Im not sure as to why people are saying that the 5th column has to come back?

I mean, the whole reason that the 5th column were taken out of the game was because in order to succesfully market co* in Europe, the nazi references had to be taken out.

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The compelling evidence for the 5th (or, at least, what I find compelling) comes from the clues the UK board coordinator, Kerensky, has been posting all week. (You can read more on that here.)

In brief, he said the following things: "Hail Eris," "Obey the Laws," and "Fnord." The Eris and Fnord comments are from Discordianism, which prominently features the "Law of 5."

Add in some other comments he made, and the fact that each arm of the ourobouros contains exactly 5 notches, and the classified add containing a phone number that works out to (555) Ouroboros, and you've got an awful lot of 5's being thrown around.

Then, there's the fact that the fact that the Ourobouros image morphs very easily into a swastika (by moving two arms.)

I'm not convinced, but i sure am persuaded.

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Dammit, I want my Villain Kheld NOW.

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That's the one thing we can be reasonably certain about: no villain khelds in I11. Posi's on the record as saying they're shooting for early 2008 to get those to us, and it seems pretty clear I11 will be this year.

Putting it all together, it seems most likely that we won't see our long awaited EAT's until I12.

But still, that's better than "not on the table right now."

Okay, forgive me if this has been said, but an idea just hit me:

If there's a parallel earth where outbreak was never contained, might there not be other parallel earths where other major game events never happened?

Like, say, the rise of the council?

Might we be getting access to a world where the 5th column never went away?

(Okay, I know it's a stretch, but still, it's not as crazy as some of the other stuff I've come up with...)

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predicitions:
All these contacts dying being a reference to Ragnorok


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Oh, that's good. The very nordic look of the ouroboros definately fits a Ragnorok theme. Good catch!

Now, which villains do we know who would be involved in "Ragnorok....?"

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See my (mostly silly) post here.

The links in that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about Norse apocalypse.

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1. Yes, it's definitely a world without you.

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Actually, much though I love that interpretation, I have to contest it. It's a world specifically without Doctor Miller.

'Coyote has said in the past that he regrets bringing new heroes into a plague-zone, and wishes he could recover all of those who have been lost.'

So, new heroes HAVE been sent into the Outbreak area. They've just all died. Presumably, in this alternate world, 'you' were one of the heroes who tried and failed to combat the virus. Similarly, because the villain contacts died of the plague, 'you' the villain are still locked up in the Zig.

I really think this is all about changing the whole course of history by changing one thing.

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This appeals to me. It's easy enough to see how history could be different if a superhero who's supposedly helped people all over the city were gone; or if a supervillain who'd repeatedly caused mayhem and destruction never got the chance. But what if it was someone (seemingly) insignificant? Someone often overlooked? Someone like Dr. Miller or Jenkins.

It's sort of like the old nursery rhyme (quoted in Poor Richard's Almanac):

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

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I think this was covered Felderburg, But if you include the closed-Beta Testing, and Open and Preview. We are looking at about 4 years of Outbreak by now.

If not included, then it begs the question of if the "four years ago" is a hint that we won't be expecting this issue until at least next year so that it is closer the the 4th Anniversary Live event.a

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Nah; there was a post from lighthouse recently (I can't find it now...) in response to someone saying that the game was ending, and that I11 would be the last update ever for CoX. His response was that I11 would indeed be the last major update for CoX. This year.

Plus, the devs have said since January that they were planning 3 issues this year, and they've continuingly said that they're on track to deliver that.

I'm fairly certain that we'll get I11 some time after the Halloween event, and some time before the Winter event.

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Guys, havest thy never heardst of the World Serpent? The one that would fight Thor in the final battle called:
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Rag·na·rök [ rgnə ràwk ]


noun

Definition:

destruction of gods: in Norse mythology, the final destruction of the gods in a great battle against the forces of evil, after which a new world will arise


[Mid-18th century. < Old Norse ragnarök "fate of the gods" < regin "gods" + rok "fate"]


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The picture very strongly suggest a Nordic influence. The head is very much reptillian (with the way the skin is at the hinges of the jaw), and believe it or not dragons and sea serpents have been described as having ears (they have characteristics of more than just snakes, don'tcha know?).

While Encarta fails me in finding the name of the World Serpent (I believe it starts with a 'J'), it was tricked into biting onto it's own tail. Loki, the father of the World Serpent, saved the Serpent (as well as Fenris) so they could help him win Ragnarock.

And no, I'm not talking 'Marvel's' or 'DC's' version of Norse mythology.

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Jörmungandr?

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Yep. This whole next issue is all about me.

/cue "The flight of the Valkyries" in the background...

Gotterdamurung: Twilight of the Gods, Ragnarok, Apocalypse. Baldr has fallen, Fenrir is unleashed, and Loki captains Naglfar on her grim journey. Fimbulwinter is coming, and Yggdrasil will be shaken to it's roots.

I11's focus on the mythical Norse apocalypse is just another step on the eschatalogical road that the developers began in I10. We know from Posi's dev diary that I10 was inspired by the book of revelations; that it was loosly based on the Christian apocalypse. The fact is, every issue from now on will, in some way, focus on a different mythos' end of days. This will continue for the next 5 years, culminating in the Mayan themed Issue 666, to be released on December 21, 2012. This issue will have no actual content, and will consist solely of Statesman unplugging all the servers permanently, and bringing an end to our beloved CoX. (Currently on the table is also a plan to hunt down and kill all current and former CoX players after that, but the devs may have to push that back until issue 667.)