Golden Girl
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Posts
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Joined
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Don't you mean XX + XY = XX/XY?
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Quote:Feel free to point them out thenOriginally Posted by Schismatrix
GG, a lot of your assertions aren't supported by anything i've read. You do realize that a lot of what you're railing against is stuff you've embellished in your own head, right?
Welcome to the ResistanceQuote:No process short of general revolt or regicide to replace a rogue leader with someone more stable or competent.
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Everything the Resistance says about the dictatorship is backed up with proof - which is why the game puts all the players on their side at level 20
Although as a stormtrooper, your attitude is understandable - just like in RL, supporters of a dictatorship will frequently deny that the crimes against humanity the dictatorship carried out ever actually happened. -
Quote:Actually, she just stands there, and when you click on her, she'll go through the same text as when you first talked to her about clearing your nameOriginally Posted by Megajoule
Except that's when she throws down a smokebomb or whatever and does her Ninja Vanish! trick while your character (and mine, actually) is still indignantly sputtering, "Wait, you can't--!"
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Get where? Praetoria?
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Quote:The mass-murder, disappearances, thought police, torture, slavery, propaganda, state control of the media and education and summary executions of "traitors" does seem to add up to a pretty big hintOriginally Posted by Steampunkette
The game is a dictatorship with hints at Tyranny.
Not if you escape to the Underground firstQuote:The "Thought Crime" idea. If Thought Crime was enough to warrant execution there wouldn't -be- a resistance. They'd all be executed before they decided to reach out to the other malcontents.
Well, the Seers tell you that Tyrant "approves of that thought", or "that thought will not do" - plus the badge called "Seer" says that "the Seer is the instrument of control and the constant threat of the Emperor's displeasure" - and thinking about freedom would certainly displease TyrantQuote:Further evidence that they're not hunting seditious -thought- is the statements of the Seers "I'm sensing hostility toward my person, Citizen. And will react accordingly" or when you're told the Seers have detected panic and fear and you're sent in to save the people who are panicked and terrified. Hostility, Panic, and Fear are all -emotional- responses, not logical ones.
A lot of Germans were genuinely rather keen on their leader back in the 30s and 40s - that doesn't mean he was good for them - or anyone elseQuote:When you see people on Thai TV networks commemorating him or honoring him it's -genuine- not some fake lip-service.
A dictatorship is never a good thing for anyone - except for stormtroopers, of course - they just love them.Quote:So I've seen how a Dictatorship can be a good thing for a nation.
There's no constitution in Praetoria - they have an immortal emperor insteadQuote:And it's evident that Cole -does- have elected representatives chosen by the people. Otherwise Luke Larson wouldn't be a politician looking to curry favor. The Magisters wouldn't have different leanings. And a Constitutional Monarch can intervene, as well, within certain limits. So Cole over-riding some decisions the Magisters bring before him isn't tyrannical.
And the Resistance supporters like Luke Larson in the Magisterium have to keep their sympathies secret - because, like everything the dictatorship does in public, free spech is an illusion
What about the ones being shot at? Or pehaps they just said the wrong things?Quote:And a lack of Freedom of Speech? Protestors in Nova Praetoria. Magisters with political leanings toward the Resistance.
Jessica Flores' arc shows just how much free speech in the Praetorian reich
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Quote:Well, Luke Larson asking you to break up the Crusaders and Destroyers getting friendly with each other might be going against Calvin Scott's orders, as Calvin seems to have a bit of a "whatever" attitude to everything his friends are getting up toOriginally Posted by BenRGamer
Well, if you aren't talking about the PCs, what Resistance NPCs outright ignore orders?
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Quote:But only for the greater good, citizen - everything is done for the greater good.Originally Posted by james_joyce
But the law is essentially ad hoc - they can do anything to anyone at any time.
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Quote:They shouldn't attack targets that aren't part of the sytem of oppression - a hospital isn't a valid target, but a PPD precinct is.Originally Posted by james_joyce
As I've conceded. The Crusaders have gone way overboard. My only question is whether it's at all realistic to expect a resistance movement in a regime like Cole's to be able to restrain themselves so they don't go overboard. I'm skeptical that it is.
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Quote:Well, they could - and they sort of do, too - like you get called an "enemy of the state" as early as the tutorialOriginally Posted by james_joyce
I'm talking less about the player's character, since they have script immunity - they need to be able to ignore orders for game play purposes, and they can't really have Cole's regime coming to arrest them for being a traitor.
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Quote:Kinda weird then the way the game forces every single Praetorian to join the Resistance allies on Primal Earth by level 20Originally Posted by BenRGamer
The Resistance is no more just than the Loyalists.
The game is set up for the the players to help the Resistance bring down the Praetorian reich, regardless of them picking blue side or red side.
And the upcoming content isn't looking too promising for the stiff-armers either
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Quote:I don't think the loyalists mind too much - they just like being able to torture people, even though it's not effective.Originally Posted by Cipher
Actually, it's forcing him to say whatever he thinks will make the torture stop. Anecdotal evidence from the survivors of torture (as reported to those who work with them professionally) unanimously agrees that, while being tortured, the victim will say absolutely anything they think their captors want to hear. Scientific evidence on the issue is far less available (for reasons to do with scientific ethics) but no more encouraging for the proponents of so called "coercive interrogation."
Everything available suggests that -- despite the depictions of media AND the dictates of common sense -- torture is one of the less effective means of gathering intelligence. This has been known for decades, as far back as the KUBARK interrogation manuals of 1963. The Intelligence Science Board (part of the CIA) recently compiled a detailed report on the subject entitled Educing Information, concluding against the use of torture as a means of gathering intelligence.
It's also worth noting that the proponents of torture typically invoke the "ticking bomb" scenario as a situation that justifies torture. The Third Reich had a program of "enhanced interrogation" which they only used against non-uniformed combatants, in what they perceived as time-sensitive situations, with command oversight, and using methods to ensure that no lasting physical harm was caused to the victim.
This program was prosecuted as a war crime at Nuremberg. I realize that its value as precedent is suspect, being an alternate dimension and all, but it bears mentioning nonetheless. -
I think people would need several bottles of Enriche before they could take that hysterical stupidity seriously
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Quote:The Seers are hardly very feminine.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Hmmm.... I'm not sure if I like the Loyalist Icon better than the Loyalist tag... Far less feminine, but still nice...
Other famous symbols of evil dictatorships don't need a name on them to identify them - so just having the Tyrant star is enough to identify you as a stormtrooperQuote:Plus it doesn't say "Loyalist"... Maybe I'll tinker with that a bit.
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Quote:Maybe a swastika, to show that you're only obeying orders?Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I couldn't find one of any "Responsible" characters in the same art style.
The Seers are a deliberate parody of justiceQuote:Then again... I can think of another blind, mindless slave to the decisions of society...
Like the badge says:
Seer:
"Blind yet seeing and casting judgment yet mindless of the crime; the Seer is the instrument of control and the constant threat of the Emperor's displeasure."
A goatee universe type of "justice"
I can think of quite a fewQuote:Did I mention that there aren't that many loyalist tags to choose from?
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Quote:You mean the picture of the blind, mindless slave?Originally Posted by Steampunkette
And that's how I can justify having the Loyalist tag in my signature.
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Quote:When they can't fight back, yes.Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Attention duelists! Golden Girl totally just said that hurting people to make them do what you want is always wrong!
Hurting stormtroopers during a battle when you're trying to free the world from their tyranny is totally ok. -
Quote:So there were never any uprisings anywhere, ever? I wonder where that crazy idea of democracy came from, and why so many people seem to want it in their country?Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Bullspit. People all throughout the pre-Christian ages, Roman Ages, Middle Ages, Imperial Ages, and even most of the Colonial, Revolutionary, and post-Revolutionary ages were perfectly content to be ruled by a single man or woman (almost always a man!)
Those people were perfectly normal.
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Quote:Normal people don't need to be forced to want to be free - that's why dictatorships do the evil things they doOriginally Posted by BenRGamer
What if you oppress people's freedom to force them to rebel against their government?
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Quote:Well, you can't really throw off fascist oppression without hurting some of the oppressors - it's very unlikely they'd all surrender without a fight.Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Attention Duelists! What if you hurt people to try and make them stop oppressing your freedom?
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Quote:Rothstein also had his wife and daughter murdered by the Powers Division - plus, on the GR website section about the PPD it says:Originally Posted by Steampunkette
It's more likely that he or his family or all involved were working with the Wardens or Crusaders and got into trouble for it.
So it looks like the policy of the dictatorship is to punish the families of anyone who steps out of line, not just the person themselves.Quote:"When someone speaks out against Emperor Cole or Praetorian matters, the dark side of the PPD emerges, and burly, well-armed officers come into your house in the dead of night and take your loved ones away.
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Quote:And it's still torture - it doesn't matter if the person has any information or not, or if they've done what you suspect them of doing - you're still hurting someone who can't fight back - so it's torture.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
That would be Coercion through Pain.
Beating or torturing someone to make a confession would be Coercion. you're not getting them to confess to a crime they feel guilty about, you're forcing them to say what you want them to say.
Smacking some terrorist in an interrogation chamber while asking him where the rest of the terrorist cell he's a part of is hiding isn't forcing him to day something you prepared or want him to say. It's getting information -
Quote:No it isn't - it's designed to make the victim do or say what you want them to do or say - the long term effects of it don't matter at all.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
The difference is that Torture is designed to inflict long lasting physical and psychological pain.
They also say how the BAF is fun becuase there's just them and the "traitors" there, so they can do what they like to them.Quote:Eh.. Could be their off-duty lounge for all you know. It's a hint at -something- below, but not a solid piece of evidence.
Your words have kinda made the accusation for youQuote:Before anyone accuses me of being a vicious jackbooted thug
Hurting people to make them do or say what you want them to do or say is the same, regardless of how you hurt them.Quote:I do not support police brutality. But i do understand the difference between punching someone and putting them on the rack for a few hours. I hope you all do, too. -
Quote:Officer Pell also says "do you know how many people Cole has killed on a weekly basis, just to protect his utopia?" during Cleopatra's arc - which sounds like there may be more than one or two being slaughtered by the fascists each week.Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Notice how none of those mention mass murder.
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Quote:Well, that's why they say they were "sent overseas" - it lets them slaughter as many people as they like without the public realizing that the people who've disappeared have been murdered.Originally Posted by james_joyce
In this case, the state is making the positive claim that it is capturing and killing individuals because they're dangerous. But the burden of proof lies with them to show that. By foregoing a public trial, they have failed to do so.
Two plus two is five, citizenQuote:One of the most dangerous views the public can hold of the state is that the people it imprisons and kills without trial must have deserved it, or else they wouldn't have done it. If the public perceives the state as approaching infallibility, there's nothing stopping it from becoming a runaway tyranny - a process that has clearly already taken place in Praetoria, national emergency or not.