FourSpeed

If I might mention one tip I use all the time with my lowbies and common IOs:

Don't Buy the IOs. Instead, put in lowball bids on the salvage. I know your slots are
pretty much tied up now, but one of the early things I always do is buy 10 Boresights,
10 Luck Charms, 10 Brass, and 10 Inanimate Carbon Rods...

When I get more slots, I add 10 Clockwork Winders and Computer Virus to the list
and eventually Ancient Artifact and Spell Scrolls.

Those ingredients will make you Acc, Dmg, Rch and Erdx commons all the way up to
L25, and comparatively, the recipes are cheap - even from a crafting table.

Along the way, I keep those stacks up, and I never have to worry about having
core Common IOs when I need them.

You'll also make good progress on some of the workbench badges which will expand
your slots and salvage capabilities as well.

I've found that very helpful for many of my toons.


Regards,
4

That may be the case. I don't know, I've never played a Dom.

My question on quantifying actual S/L vs R is from a Ranged character's perspective,
(ie. a PB or Blaster), and since this is in the general questions area I felt I could
put it in this thread rather than make a new one that asks essentially the same
question.

Sorry if that created some confusion - My Bad.


Regards,
4

Well, I have little doubt the Devs will look at it. After all, they changed xp on
Family and Freaks, put in aggro caps, and quashed any number of things in AE
(many of which were real bugs/exploits), so I'm sure this, and lowbie farming
in general, will get some review. The Devs have set several precedents with
this sort of activity in the past.

There's no telling, with Freedom coming soon, *when* they'll actually look at it,
or how they'll deal with it, but I'm certain they will (sorry Neogumbercules).

What I find most interesting though is the leveraging of game mechanics that
make it possible.

All of the attributes that make this work are either common, or desirable things
the Devs deliberately added:

* FotM Build: Those have existed (for various things) since Day 1
* Selectively choosing mobs to fight? Also true from Day 1
* Finding a map with said mob-type -- yep, all the time.
* Beginner's Luck: Devs deliberately added this for the lowbie game
* Smooth & Easier Leveling Curve: Devs put in a lot of time on this too
* HP/XP Scaling at Low Level: Also intentional from Devs.

The key though is AE provides the "Perfect Storm" in the sense that you can
optimize ALL of these factors at once through a carefully thought out and well
designed strategy like this.

That typically isn't possible in the standard content. The latter 3 qualities you
couldn't really do much with since you level out of them so quickly, and the
first three really don't apply much until L50 (or if you intentionally level cap a
toon) with a slotted out build.

This approach really boosts efficiency of all of these things to maximum in AE.

It'll be interesting to see how the devs deal with it, as it isn't really an "exploit"
at all, in the classic sense, but rather a distillation and purification of very simple
min-maxing techniques into one ultra-efficient process.


Regards,
4

PS> I also ran this myself last night and got to L18 in under an hour (47 mins).
I don't know if that's "game breaking", but it's easily in a category that will provoke
scrutiny imho. Mind you, I *did* have a seriously fun hour playing with it.

In the area of "disclaimers, quid pro quos" etc. (Aladdin), "anyone" can't do this.

Heck, I don't even have /auctionhouse and I've been around awhile...

Now, in terms of the actual steps and mechanics of the project, that's valid,
but you have several perks to ease the journey and quite a bit more game
knowledge than a newbie would.

That caveat out of the way, I don't see why a newbie wouldn't be able to follow
your roadmap/approach if it's clearly outlined.

In any case, it sounds fun and interesting.


GL & Enjoy,
4

You're kidding, right?


4

PS> I think one of the Bills (BillZBubba or Memphis Bill) has probably
*deleted* that many L50's over the years.

Aw, you guys peeked at my guide. No Fair.

OP: As you might surmise, my Guide is "more than you ever want to know",
about Recipe Vendoring.

It's easy. It's fast. It's lucrative, and it's 100% safe, with minimal time spent
at the Market. I originally wrote it in 2008, and if anything, it works even better
these days than it did back then (and it worked *well* back then).


Regards,
4

Another factor is that they'll generally have more global buffs, and even set
buffs, for those of use that do mid-level frankslotting, or dump lots of Purples
and PvP IOs into the build.

Finally, higher levels can carry more inspirations, which can be a significant
force multiplier as well.


Regards,
4

True, and at levels below L45 they completely cease to exist, not to mention
having zero benefit throughout your toon's entire leveling career.

Excellent powers - Bad substitutes for either Defense or Regen in the build.

On this, we agree, although I'll point out your very own last phrase, which
preclude both Barrier and Rebirth.


Regards,
4

Ahhh. I assumed you picked 80/s because it was the actual number my brute has,
which is why I listed 65-80/s earlier as realistic /WP values.

Really. So, a 60 sec decaying heal is your idea of High Regen for any AT?

Hmmmm. I guess by that categorization, the same is true for Defense in a single
word: Barrier

That should save players a lot of inf buying Kinetic Combat IOs they no longer
need.

Or put another way, both of those powers are excellent, but I think you'd
agree that no defense advocates would say "Forget Def, just get Barrier".

The same would be true for regen advocates regarding Rebirth, except on an AT
that can't actually get any appreciable amount of regen.

Yes. In that scenario, Dull Pain easily saves the bacon, if you're there to click it,
or you have it on auto. For all practical intents and purposes, DP (or any heal) is
simply regen, abeit not continuous. Depending on your slotting, starting HP, and
recharge, DP works out loosely to ~5-10HP/s on average.

Otoh, in the same scenario, the /WP Brute can sleep through it.

My spreadsheet shows the same. Of course, without the DP or regen, your
SS/Inv is just as dead - as the prior example shows. And since you're allowed
DP, the SS/WP could add a mere 3% of Defense (say, a Steadfast IO), and
take the rest of the day off, even in the 6 Lt. scenario. Problem Solved.

So again, we come full circle. Both toons are quite impressive, and defense
strategies (to some degree) are interchangeable from an effectiveness viewpoint.

Having a good mix of them is as good or better than relying on a single
strong one.

The one wrinkle in the scenario that you didn't mention, is one of the two things
I stated in my very first post that can kill the /WP - an Alpha Strike.

In this case, 6 guys (if they all hit) would do 3600 dmg, of which 1800 would
count. He'd need 360/s regen to recover that before the next attack round.

So, the Alpha would very likely kill him on two successive rounds, if they both hit.
That IS an issue that up-front Defense is very good at mitigating.

Your example illustrates that little gotcha in the build quite clearly.

In any case, I think we've beat the topic up pretty good. Certainly the OP should
have a pretty good sense of the relative strengths of each AT by now.


Regards,
4

If, by "shut off", you mean ... prevent you from using them, then No.

All slots in powers apply. Based on the level of mission, all powers taken
from 5 levels higher than the mission and lower are available.

So, if I'm a fully slotted L50, and I run a mish at L6, all powers taken between
L1 and L11 (5 levels, even though L11 is slots) are available.

What *does* happen though, is that the game takes the slots you have, and
scales them accordingly to reduce power down to a L6 equivalent level.

There's a good discussion about Enhancement Scaling on P-Wiki that covers
it in some detail.


Regards,
4

While I understand the point you're heading towards, that isn't quite the full story.

The 80 HP/s is against just one mob.

There aren't many single mobs that can put out 80+ DPS other than some GM's
and signature heroes, so it's substantial mitigation, and often sufficient all by
itself, for standard stuff.

With RttC though, regen stacks based on the number of mobs in range, so it can
easily get into the 120-130 HP/s level at the initial stages of a battle.

To be sure, that is still a finite number against a crowd, but it's still quite effective.

I think the more noteworthy issue with regen is that very few toons can get
even close to those levels. By contrast, softcapping defense in some way (a type,
or position etc.) is much easier to achieve for most ATs.


Regards,
4

It's not meaningless. It's actually an approach used quite frequently in things
like modeling, calculus and other scenarios along the lines of "examine the effect
as some Variable approachs some arbitrary Limit" (in this case, variables Def and
Regen with a limit of zero).

For purposes of this discussion, I'd consider 5 HP/s or less as low regen.
It's about what my blaster has (iirc), and it doesn't even replenish him
between fights, let alone contribute significantly to his combat surviablility.

I'd say 10-30 HP/s would be significant, and high for some ATs.

30+ is high for all but Regen sets, and 50+ is very high and typically not achievable
except in Regen sets.

SS/WP can get 65/s easily, and 80/s definitely vs a single mob.
My SS/Inv is around 25/s (iirc), and its effect is quite clear.

The "out of whack" part was that players were making completely Invincible
characters, and prior to the purple patch, were farming purple con mobs, and
in general, were immune to most (if not all) of the PvE content. THAT is what
the Devs didn't like about the set.

I definitely agree with this and to a large degree, that is exactly where this
thread is at this point.

I agree with this point as well. My /WP was pretty much indestructible by St. Martial
timeframe vs S/L mobs and solid against everything else, using mostly frankenslotted
sets and commons.

My /Inv never really got that feel until much higher level and a much more complete build.

At L50, they're both at the "Angels on a Pin" phase, and are by far, the 2 toughest
characters that I have (of a rather large number of toons).

So, coming full circle to the OP, either (or both) will be very, very good, and
determining which is "better" is really going to depend on how you define "better".


Regards,
4

No, I am not.

What you are failing to grasp are two simple ideas.

1> NO Def + High Regen > High Def and NO regen
2> HP, Def, Resist, Regen *blend* to affect Total Survival.

For point #1, simple math clearly proves that - Dead vs Full Health is about
as clear cut as it can be.

Point #2 really muddies the waters, because basically it means that mixing those
various attributes to the degree your AT can, will be (for practical in-game purposes)
similarly effective. As has been pointed out, ALL ATs can do that with all of those
attributes to varying degrees.

I find it amusing that everyone regaling me with tales of how their AT's survive
the Pylon Challenge also point out that they have *significant* amounts of regen
which actually make it possible.

Imagine that.

Given that we can't seem to progress past the basics of those two simple
concepts listed above, I'll just simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

But, I'll also fall back on history. For those that have been here since the beginning,
the GDN was the big Defense nerf. It's remembered well, because it hit everyone.

What is not remembered so well, is that from I1 through I3 or maybe I4, Regen
sets were repeatedly nerfed with several patches to the point where it became
a standing community joke.

Why? Because the devs evidently understand the concept I'm trying to illustrate
significantly better, it appears, than many of the responders in this thread.

Go Figure.


Regards,
4

Here we go. Let the quibbling commence.

Forest, trees, guys.

Yes. It is a contrived example to illustrate a point. It is true. ALL characters
have some level of regen, and ALL characters have some level of Def, typically
in addition to the simple 5% ToH floor and the implied 50% def (the inverse of the
base 50% ToH for a standard mob).

You could put a spreadsheet together to account for all that detail and end up
verifying the point, which is: SS/Inv (and any +Def build) *must* stay actively
involved or they will die. In many cases an SS/WP with high regen has total immunity
in the same circumstances.

If your high defense character (be it SS/Inv or something else), has default,
or low regen, let it stand in aggro range of a Rikti Pylon. Then, hands off the keyboard.

With only a 5% or so ToH against you, the Pylon will still kill you. It may well
take some time, maybe quite a lot of time, but the end result is not in doubt.

It won't kill the SS/WP brute with high regen, no matter how long it stands there.

In my specific case, it won't kill my SS/Inv either, but that's because it *doesn't* have
low regen. It absolutely *does* kill my softcapped Night Widow (even with ~12 HP/s
regen). If that number was a little bit higher, say 20 or so, it would probably
be fine unless two unlucky back to back hits occurred (it's also squishier than
either of the brutes)

As I said in my very first post, BOTH of these Brutes are PvE DemiGods, and we're
splitting hairs. But SS/WP *can* have complete immunity in circumstances where
the SS/Inv cannot, and CDF affects it far more than it does my SS/WP.

For me, that's enough to tip the scales toward it. YMMV.


Regards,
4

I didn't say it wasn't a plus. The thing with a High Def build though, is that it simply
doesn't come into play as much (if you don't get hit, resist does nothing).

The /WP typically gets hit much more often, so it is a much more vital part of
its overall defense strategy because it allows the regen to keep pace with the
incoming damage.

Let me give an extremely simplistic example that will demo what I mean and
hopefully clarify the "immunity" concept as well.

Consider our two Brutes.

SS/WP: 2000HP, 70/s Regen, 50% S/L resist -- No Def (for simplicity)
SS/Inv: 3000HP, 45% Def, 60% S/L resist -- No Regen (for simplicity)

We're gonna gloss slightly because I want to focus on the primary core points
for the ATs rather than quibble over to-hit floors, or idle HP recovery etc.

Each is going to mock a Lt. (ie. Ridicule him, but not kill him). The Lt, of course,
will be very annoyed and pummel said Brute mercilessly, because he's used to
pounding squishies, and doesn't tolerate that sort of verbal abuse...

Lt: Melee Attack does 600 Dmg. 5 Second recharge. Standard 50% ToH

Let's see what happens after, say 25 minutes (1500 seconds)...

Hmmm... after 25 mins, assuming neither Brute does anything, the SS/Inv is in
the hospital - despite higher def, higher res and higher HP, while the SS/WP
is at Full Health...

Even though the SS/WP actually took 10X the damage, his very high regen
along with his resist was able to keep pace with the incoming damage over
time.

Unfortunately, the 5% ToH floor, along with no regen at all, guaranteed that it's
simply a matter of time and attrition for the SS/Inv Brute.

Now, there's zero doubt that both Brutes would win the battle had they lifted
a finger to fight, but the SS/WP has complete immunity - No matter how long
the battle goes on, the Lt can *never* kill the SS/WP in that scenario.

Sure, that can happen.

Consider what would happen if we gave the Lt. in our example a 5% -Def
buff, stackable for each hit.

Well, ToH would start to approach the 95% ceiling in fairly short order

Very Bad news for the SS/Inv, but a complete non-issue for the SS/WP,
(in this instance) because even at 100% ToH, the Lt. couldn't beat the regen.

However, you can see that if the Lt put out a little bit more damage, it would
begin to be a problem for the SS/WP, so, yes, it can indeed be subject to a
CDF problem, but in general that is far more severe and troublesome to the
/Inv than it is for the /WP, and in many cases, it doesn't matter at all to the
/WP if he's fighting his preferred S/L mob types.

On the other hand, if the Lt. had a -regen buff that tanked it to 0, then the
SS/WP is in very deep doo-doo.

Hopefully, the example shows, conceptually, why I like /WP over /Inv provided
you can get a high regen rate. It's also the very same reason that the Devs
seriously nerfed regen sets way, way back... Immunity is as close to an "I-Win"
button as you can get, which is why very few AT's can get away with it.

SS/WP is one of the ones that can.


Regards,
4

I believe you mean Dwarf based on what Avatea wrote.

On the question of "How do Peacebringers reproduce?", I'll offer some speculation -
As a "natural" origin creature, I'd hypothesize it reproduces through Fission, similar
conceptually, to the way simple cells divide.

Or put another way, if Light Form is simply energy, what prevents it from
dissipating?

Evidently the being itself maintains/retains a certain size and shape, and prevents it
from occurring through some unknown mechanism.

By corollary, how does a Peacebringer (an energy being) die?

Presumably, if/when it becomes too weak to maintain its Light Form, it does
dissipate and the being ceases to exist as a distinct and sentient life form.

Given that hypothesis, it seems natural that such a being (if strong) would possibly
be able to choose to divide itself into 2 equivalent (but weaker) copies through
fission.

It probably raises as many questions as it answers, but it works for me


Regards,
4