EvilRyu

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again why does it even matter, its not like storm defenders are soloing the STF or something. I could see if that was the case but I seriously doubt a single storm defender is doing that right now. What so significant about these powers? Maybe I am just using them wrong or something I cant see how they can be leveraged to the point of soloing lvl 54 AVs. Just what exactly are the devs afraid that LS, VS, Gun Drone are going to do?

[/ QUOTE ]*blink*

So...if something can't solo the STF, it's perfectly fine and needs no adjustments? That's the only benchmark for power you think there should be?

*blinkblink*

...you've left me speechless.

[/ QUOTE ]Thats was just an extreme example and you know that. What I am trying to do is get an honest response from them. I want to know exactly what did they intend for those powers. What are those powers doing that so damaging to the game that they have to be gutted in this way.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Known? Yes. Statistically significant (as in, a noticeable blip in datamining), no. That came later.

[/ QUOTE ]What do you mean statistically significant? Its either you know its going to effect recharge or it isnt. You dont need datamining to know that. Just what exactly were you guys shooting for on this? Is it that you all didnt expect or want it be effected by IOs and +recharge powers but having it just effected by +recharge powers was ok? Are you saying the only way to fix it was to just to disallow all recharge instead of just saying it can just gain only the buffs on the caster? All the datamining did was just prove the powers were subpar and the main way people got past that was with all the extra slotting. To me it would make sense to fix the powers in addition to this fix to all pets you are doing. But I got the feeling the datamining is saying the power is overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]

It means they knew that it was happening. But didn't know how much of an impact it would have on the game as a whole.

"Pets recharge is affected? Eh, it'll be fine"

*one datamine later*

"HOLY CRAP, look at these numbers!"

Though perhaps not QUITE like that. You get the idea

[/ QUOTE ]Again why does it even matter, its not like storm defenders are soloing the STF or something. I could see if that was the case but I seriously doubt a single storm defender is doing that right now. What so significant about these powers? Maybe I am just using them wrong or something I cant see how they can be leveraged to the point of soloing lvl 54 AVs. Just what exactly are the devs afraid that LS, VS, Gun Drone are going to do?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Known? Yes. Statistically significant (as in, a noticeable blip in datamining), no. That came later.

[/ QUOTE ]What do you mean statistically significant? Its either you know its going to effect recharge or it isnt. You dont need datamining to know that. Just what exactly were you guys shooting for on this? Is it that you all didnt expect or want it be effected by IOs and +recharge powers but having it just effected by +recharge powers was ok? Are you saying the only way to fix it was to just to disallow all recharge instead of just saying it can just gain only the buffs on the caster? All the datamining did was just prove the powers were subpar and the main way people got past that was with all the extra slotting. To me it would make sense to fix the powers in addition to this fix to all pets you are doing. But I got the feeling the datamining is saying the power is overpowered.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They could have just as easily fixed it that many issues ago if it was truely a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do not know that. Standard Code Rant applies.

[/ QUOTE ]Its called you just delete the part of the code that applies to recharge. If they can put it in they sure as hell can delete it. They could have just as easily done the fix and said pets inherrent just damage, accuracy buffs and not even include recharge in the listing at all.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...

[/ QUOTE ]

We aren't. That is exactly the post I am referring to.

Lewis

[/ QUOTE ]

Honest question; why would they lie?

[/ QUOTE ]Thats the million dollar question we are trying to get the real answer to. I still think there is more to this change than what they are telling us. Because its completely retarded to nerf powers that are already subpar.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long?

[/ QUOTE ]

Castle clearly stated why it was allowed to go on so long. The only way to fix it was to introduce huge amounts of lag into the game, and that was clearly unacceptable. So the only way to solve the problem was to kludge around it, to not allow Recharge to be slotted, or have the pets ignore the Recharge slotting. (And where that failed to catch the recharge was where they kept having to come up with new kludges)

Ultimately, the second most unacceptable solution was decided to be acceptable because it helped with the henchmen AI problems. It caused problems as well, it caused true pets to be unbuffable, and also made them immune to debuffs. (Which is a good thing, for player pets, at least in PvE) But they can't introduce the lag, they can't drop every IO that gives Recharge, and they can't leave things as they are.

[/ QUOTE ]No what I am saying is why even allow psuedo pets to get recharge from the caster if it was never meant to be, thats what I am saying. Why wait 7 issues to address this if it was never meant to be. Thats what I have a problem with. They could have just as easily fixed it that many issues ago if it was truely a problem. If this change goes thru as is with no further tweaks to pets its just going to open the door for them to start lying to us again like how Jack did in the old days. How fair is it for them to change the rules in mid game like this especially when they encouraged us to play this way. It makes no sense.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Hasten, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and AM have passed the caster's recharge to summoned pets since approximately I7. Further, tangible pets (Singy, Imps) have been directly buffable by these same powers forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Castle, in the OP of this thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis mine.

[/ QUOTE ]No thats just them changing the rules in the middle of the game again. Just like with the multiple instances of a pet. If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long? Thats why I say they are full of it this time. Normally I would let this kind of thing go but this is setting a precedent, at any given moment in time they can always say something was never intended just so they can nerf with not justifiable reason. At this point their word is meaningless because we were encouraged to use recharge,damage, accuracy buffs since issue 7 since that part of the technology was added to psuedo pets.

[ QUOTE ]
(QR)

Anyone who thinks they're doing this because they think LS, VS, GD, etc. are overpowered really needs to reread the thread.

Short answer: they're not. But the powers are being affected in a way that they were never intended to be. Add in the AI glitch with henchmen, and this fix deals with both issues at once.

Again: they are not doing this because they think these powers are overpowered. They're doing this because those powers currently are broken. Strength has nothing to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]Broken in what way then? Please explain because to me it looks like a nerf because they are overpowered. The main 3 that got hit worst by the nerf only have 1 attack, so they cant say its because of the AI issues.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps some time away from math, spreadsheets and tables would do Castle some good, pick up a character and play it on live.

[/ QUOTE ] This is why sometimes player experience will trump the numbers they get from so called datamine. I cant believe for one minute that anyone is using VS, Gun Drone or LS in an overpowered way. I am still waiting for what the real reason is behind this nerf because the stated reasons dont make sense at all when everyone knows those powers are subpar in what they do.

[ QUOTE ]
The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.

[/ QUOTE ]But the ability for pets to inherrent hasten wasnt working as intended? I dont get that because we were specifically encouraged to use that for psuedo pets. How is it all of a sudden not working as intended?

[ QUOTE ]
What disturbs me the most about this change is the way it was presented. I remember the changes to hurricane very vividly. And the changes to multiple instances of a pet summon. And the global yambagging to AoE holds. This has been mishandled the same way.

Would it be possible for us to be given a list of things that are not "working as intended" so we will know what to expect? Is building for perma or near perma Phantom Army the next thing to get nerfed? Or what about perma freezing rain? Is it "working as intended" that I can have Ice Slick out again within a few seconds of it ending?

Are controllers that are built for -control- not supposed to do any damage?

Just level with us. Its amazing how much angst you can head off at the pass with a little candor.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with you. What really gets me is that 2 MMOs in the same genre are going to be on the market soon, you would think they would be extra nice to their existing customers and not piss them off with stupid changes like this. I havent been this mad about changes since ED. For the first time in 5 years I truely am considering not playing anymore because of this. It just seems like the more you try to personalize a character stuff like this happens. It makes me wonder if we got a second ED in store.

Post deleted by Moderator 08

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.

I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.

I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would have been so much better, could have saved myself literally hours of going off the deep end trying to protect LS from the pet nerf. Only to find out LS "IS THE PET NERF" lol.

I never would have thought LS, VS and gun drone were too strong, especially given how many people lol@VS and I rarely hear people talking up GD. LS has always been considered pretty good, but there is another reason for that.

Personally I think it smells of backpedaling to cover his butt, but it makes no difference to the outcome, just helps to ensure continued developer mistrust .

[/ QUOTE ]Thats the problem I have with this change and why it doesnt make sense. VS, LS, Gun drone are all powers that were for the most part were not the best and sometimes even skipped. So how would having the extra recharge make them overpowered? You are looking at just a few more blasts per summon. Its not like defenders or blasters are going to be soloing the STF. I cant see any harm in letting these powers keep their recharge. I think this happen more so because of the principle of it all (sneaking the recharge in) than more so having the recharge actually making noticable performance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the method people were using to make them "worth it" was basically broken.

You can't very well say that it was working well when the only way you could make it work well enough to take required you to game the system and use loopholes to cheat the system. This patch removed some of those loopholes. And how we can look at the power without all these extra *'s.

Oh, it's a good power*
I based my whole toon around this power*
It works fine*

*because it works in X fashion as a result of a loophole in the code.

Without that we can see how the power is suppose to work. Is it doing too much damage? Is it recharging too fast? Is it too strong? Too weak?

NOW you make those arguments. If after removing those loopholes the power doesn't work well enough on it's own. Then the power is too weak. And should be buffed.

But breaking the system again because it sort of makes these powers worth it, because they suck otherwise. That's... not going to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]It takes them forever and a day to buff stuff in this game. I find it hard to believe that all the extra recharge was never meant to be if it wasnt then why allow it in the first place back when they did it in issue 7? They could have just as easily let the pets accept the other buffs from the caster except recharge back in issue 7. Its all just a cop out, and I am pretty much done fighting about this. I am done with storm summoning. To me this is them going back on their word with never making the game harder due to IOs, them going back on never givng older powers the SoW treatment. Having so much more recharge is not game breaking in anyway possible. In fact I would like for someone to prove its game breaking for LS to be the way it is.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.

I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.

I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would have been so much better, could have saved myself literally hours of going off the deep end trying to protect LS from the pet nerf. Only to find out LS "IS THE PET NERF" lol.

I never would have thought LS, VS and gun drone were too strong, especially given how many people lol@VS and I rarely hear people talking up GD. LS has always been considered pretty good, but there is another reason for that.

Personally I think it smells of backpedaling to cover his butt, but it makes no difference to the outcome, just helps to ensure continued developer mistrust .

[/ QUOTE ]Thats the problem I have with this change and why it doesnt make sense. VS, LS, Gun drone are all powers that were for the most part were not the best and sometimes even skipped. So how would having the extra recharge make them overpowered? You are looking at just a few more blasts per summon. Its not like defenders or blasters are going to be soloing the STF. I cant see any harm in letting these powers keep their recharge. I think this happen more so because of the principle of it all (sneaking the recharge in) than more so having the recharge actually making noticable performance.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]Ok fine I see your point in this. Its just like how back in the day we were never meant to have more than one instance of a pet but yet it went on for more than a year before it was addressed. I understand what you are doing from the developer side but as the players how are we supposed to know what you all intended as the limits for certain powers? There is just no way for us to know this. All I can say is if this decision is final then it truely makes me sad because doing things like this with IOs was to me building a part of who my character was as a whole. But if we have to go back to plain on vanilla slotting again because the IOs dont give as much benefit then I might as well not even play that toon anymore and/or ever create toons that have those powersets. To me the buffed up lightning storm was the difference between choosing storm summoning over cold domination for my defender.

But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.

Well at least no one listed any retarded RPing reasons to no merge the market this time. So I will say /signed because it would make side switching alot easier to finally happen.

Its been so long since I played trollers and doms, I should have noticed this alot sooner. I will do some testing on Jack and Poo-man. If I find anything wierd I will put it in the new thread if someone starts one.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's another thought -- Earth Control will probably have more success against higher level foes than other controllers due to its -Defense, even if its damage is lower.

[/ QUOTE ] I dont think so, most controller attacks get inherrent tohit to them and by the time you are in the 20's you would have at least 2 SO's in each attack. So you are good up to +3s for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Controllers generally get a 10% accuracy bonus on their single target hold. But an Earth Controller will have a better chance to hit more often, once he has hit once due to the 20% Defense Debuff in each of his attacks. That means that he may have more success against higher level foes, even higher than +3. It probably would not be enough to offset his lower damage, but it would speed up his ability to take down higher level foes.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah but when you are at 95% accuracy already the defense debuffs dont help at all is what I am saying.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's another thought -- Earth Control will probably have more success against higher level foes than other controllers due to its -Defense, even if its damage is lower.

[/ QUOTE ] I dont think so, most controller attacks get inherrent tohit to them and by the time you are in the 20's you would have at least 2 SO's in each attack. So you are good up to +3s for the most part.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the tears in this thread are delicious

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-issue 6 or should I say pre-issue 5 is when I still felt super play this game. Now most of my toons feel like they are slightly better than a luitenent playing the game. As for as minimum effort, I never said that. I dont mind working towards a goal but at the same time the goal needs to be obtainable in a reasonable amount of time and effort for everyone not just the expert player. 8 to 12 months for single IO is just too long thats what I am saying. If you casually play your alts then chances are its going to take near that kind of time to get 200+ merits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember those old days, but the new days we're actually stronger while not being stupidly overpowered.

and where are you pulling 8-12 months from? ...maybe if you never play w/ anyone I guess...

[/ QUOTE ]

200 merits is 5 Lady Greys and a Katie if that takes you 8-12 months you are to casual to have a forum account.

[/ QUOTE ]Me thinks yall dont know what casual actually is. Casual gamer wont have time to do a tf/sf/trial. You looking at 30 to 45 minutes at best for their time played a few days a week, now spread the play sessions across multiple alts. Now you see how this can end up taking months or years for IOs?

[/ QUOTE ]

A Lady Grey can be run in 45 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]Casual gamer doesnt have many toons level 45+ if any.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the tears in this thread are delicious

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-issue 6 or should I say pre-issue 5 is when I still felt super play this game. Now most of my toons feel like they are slightly better than a luitenent playing the game. As for as minimum effort, I never said that. I dont mind working towards a goal but at the same time the goal needs to be obtainable in a reasonable amount of time and effort for everyone not just the expert player. 8 to 12 months for single IO is just too long thats what I am saying. If you casually play your alts then chances are its going to take near that kind of time to get 200+ merits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember those old days, but the new days we're actually stronger while not being stupidly overpowered.

and where are you pulling 8-12 months from? ...maybe if you never play w/ anyone I guess...

[/ QUOTE ]

200 merits is 5 Lady Greys and a Katie if that takes you 8-12 months you are to casual to have a forum account.

[/ QUOTE ]Me thinks yall dont know what casual actually is. Casual gamer wont have time to do a tf/sf/trial. You looking at 30 to 45 minutes at best for their time played a few days a week, now spread the play sessions across multiple alts. Now you see how this can end up taking months or years for IOs?

All I can say is I am very shocked at mind control more than anything else. Just exactly how did you have each of the attacks you used slotted?

[ QUOTE ]
Then plunk down the time, the effort, and the focus to get to that.

Speaking as someone who still has chronic altitis, but prefers merits.. I don't feel an overwhelming need to consolidate them, and I frankly don't mind it taking a while to get what I'm after. I'm patient. I've got a lot of characters. And I also don't particularly need to be OMGWTFPWNAGE to enjoy myself.

[/ QUOTE ]I been doing that, and have completed several builds already, what I am talking about is for the casual gamer. They wouldnt be able to complete a build in a years time or even 2 years.

[ QUOTE ]
If you insist on pre-I6 performance, then you are no longer a "casual" player. That's really all there is to it - the "casual" player does not need that. The casual player can play the game with just SOs and generics. If you expect to be able to put in minimal effort and get to the greatest heights of power immediately, then really, your expectations are flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]Pre-issue 6 or should I say pre-issue 5 is when I still felt super play this game. Now most of my toons feel like they are slightly better than a luitenent playing the game. As for as minimum effort, I never said that. I dont mind working towards a goal but at the same time the goal needs to be obtainable in a reasonable amount of time and effort for everyone not just the expert player. 8 to 12 months for single IO is just too long thats what I am saying. If you casually play your alts then chances are its going to take near that kind of time to get 200+ merits.