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me likes.
beacon: I would restrict this to in-zone only. once you leave the zone your beacon power resets.
+1 on the toggle idea too, as long as being stunned etc doesnt accidentally knock off the toggle and zap you backAnd as long as being defeated doesnt count as the toggle being tripped. How would that work with rez? would the beacon still be there? Would the power still be toggled on? Is the beacon only cleared when you go to a hospital?
Sj: Ground Pound. not sure about this. Fly (or hover) up, switch to SJ (or CJ) and hit ground pound. You can drop a toon to 1HP from a high enough point. thats a *lot* of damage to multiply by 5 and apply as an AoE.
Graphics for crater could use the Ground stomp spiderweb effect ?
I'd also like to see alternate animations for the skates etc so multiple origins could benefit from them and stay "in character". A magic baseed toon on rocket skates would be funny but not very consistent imho -
Quote:In hindsight, you're rightI'd suggest that you could just say that the implicit tiering effect is simply how many "gadgets" you get to use at one time. Just ignore the implied power level advancement... the "power" here is intended to come from the greater versatility, anyway. Expanding on an existing system as opposed to generating a new one is usually easier to both explain and implement, after all. I understand your concerns, tho.
powerpool:
tier 1: you can use one "thing"
tier 2: you must have tier 1. you can use two "things"
tier 3: you must have tier 2. you can use three "things"
tier 4: you mus thave tier 3. you can use four "things"
take away the level selection limitations to make it more accessible and increase the versatility or match them to the current requirements on power pools (1st at 6, tier 3 at 14 and tier 4 at 24).
Quote:Item is just a heavily loaded term design-wise, and especially in relation to CoH... I'd avoid it entirely. I certainly sympathize with a desire to fit conceptually with the various origins, however (my magic origin nrg/dev blaster would love some alternative graphics for her secondary, to pick an example). nice and generically ambiguous.
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Kiosks : I put up a suggestion before to use these to find teams or as an ingame event noticeboard/signup sheet. Its a pity they arent more useful.
Original Enhancements: these need some love. IOs outstrip them by the mid 20s and IOs dont lose effectiveness when you level. I would have thought that an enhancement specifically attuned to your origin would give more benefit than an enhancement thats generic. How to make an improvement without overpowerign them is another issue altogether.
Shadow Shard: I love the shadow shards... i hate SSTF1 but the shards themselves were just such a cool leap of imagination for the game. definitely needs some attention and developement. maybe make it co-op and open a praetorian base there and make it the actual main assault route with the current incursions just being decoys?
Sewer and Eden trials: I still play these with my SG. Very rare I see a call to join one otherwise though.
SGs and Bases: SGs themselves dont need much more work imho beyond some cosmetic options. bases need some developement. Some new tilesets perhaps.
MA: I used to like it, now I'm "meh". there are some great arcs and some very very talented mission designers out there. I, personally, would love to see a mapping utility that allowed you to build a map like you currently build a base (but with more tilesets, which could be given to the SG bases as mentioned above) and a basic scripting engine for placing triggers and events much like neverwinter Nights did in its adventure editor.
Hazard zones: I agree, need more use. they are a rgeat idea but they are underused, possibly for being too specific in their purpose/story? its easy just to let them sit there and forget about them. there was a suggestion before (either by me or in a thread I posted years ago on zone events) about having the DA mists invade a zone and have the players forced to defend the area from the incursion. Wont happen but somethign along those lines would make the zones more or an immediate threat to the players and encourage visits .. or could just waste dev time when no-one visits anyway
PvP zones: fun at the start, got old quickly. if not for the PvP players I would be happy if they dropped them tbh. There is a suggestion for a PvP server, perhaps they could port them over there and have open PvP but as already brought up in that thread, they'd have to fix PvP first before making it open world or it'd be too annoying.
Regular missions? are these neglected/orphaned?
Contacts: I dotn really have an opinion on themno ideas here.
origins: need to be more of an intrigal part of a toon beyond just starting concept. I'd like to see animations change for powers depending on your origin or perhaps an optional branch off the original powerset that you can follow. However , anything that happens now would have to be optional or already existing toons could find themselves unfairly unbalanced or broken and forced to change from the character they've already built.
PB/WS stuff: tried em, didnt take. more content for them might be the answer but is there enough interest to merit more content?
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Additions: Arenas : are these still used? honest question. its been ages since I've been invited to join an arena quick league.
zone events: fires in Steel canyon, rave in skyway. we need more of these that players can opt in to playing. personally I'd like it if they had a consequence for not tackling them (like the clockwork activity leading to Paladin if left alone). -
Quote:what about a weak end drain power, or a weak acc debuff power, or a weak healing power that doesnt involve pulling out a star trek tricorder in the animationNo I didn't. Your example was silly because players don't need an item that bestows a weak healing power because there are powers in the power pools they grant any character healing abilities
Quote:It doesn't matter if a melee character isn't as good as a pure ranged character. Tankmaging is the attempt to make a character that doesn't have any weaknesses
Quote:No it doesn't. You threw that argument in there as a red herring.
Quote:We don't need items because we already have temp powers that serve the same purpose and don't gimp players builds by making them sacrifice powers. Furthermore we already have Power Pools which aren't as powerful as primary/secondaries and are slottable that allow players to customize their characters builds.
Quote:So adding a new feature that duplicates temp powers and power pools is an unnecessary waste of time and resources.
Translation: We aren't as gullible as you hoped.
Quote:Translation: allowing slotting would allow the creation of tankmages.
Quote:And not adding an unnecessary feature that already exists in the game also prevents abuse.
Quote:Fail.
I never said that your suggested level cap was an attempt at Tankmagery. I asked for confirmation from other forum members if my memory was correct on the level of enhancements some players choose to use to get the best results when exemplaring. If my memory is correct then it seems quite a coincidence that you arbitrarily chose that level as the limit.
Quote:No I don't. If you want that kind of "versatility" you are free to play that other super hero MMO that allows that it. Of course that type of "versatility" was so popular the game was forced to go F2P from lack of players and they instituted Archetypes similar to this game. -
A nice and simple idea indeed
I like anything that adds options to the game without causing imbalance. as you point out not all players want to team or prefer to play in Duos and option which is not given much care and attention in the current trials system.
An addition to standard tip missions you could include mayhem and safeguard type missions (under the same contraints as the tip mission timers) with objectives that better suit a small team or solo character focussing on stealth than an army steamrolling everything in its path. (sabotage the portal generator and destroy any cloning vats you come across along the way. each vat destroyed raises the alert level, once alert is triggered you have to avoid detection and make it to the exit; safeguard a primal earth target from a minor praetorian incursion).
This could easily be expanded to allow more praetorian side content as well. Tip missions to help or hinder the invasion. mayhem/safeguard missions to destroy a primal object or defend a praetorian location.
They would also have the bonus of being both solo and standard size team friendly and utilise an eisting mechanic to do so. -
Quote:actually quite close indeed. the issue with making it exactly the same as a power pool is the requirement to tier the powers in some form of progression. badges can be gained at any time and in any order so, unless you were to have tier 1 to 4 possible powers for each badge (more effort) I was thinking of just flatpacking it and letting the player decide between power and utility. Seeign as the player has already pretty much chosen concept and utility by electign to go this route, the results should be pretty much fair. of course, even if they do elect to go the power route and take as much damage or buff etc as they can, they still wont ever be as good as a toon that has those powers as part of their power set so the potential for imbalance is lessened somewhat.Well... I think it's safe to say there are some people very much against anything even remotely resembling itemization. Although, frankly, I'm not sure most of the discussion in that vein is actually all that related to the original idea posted, either.
However, I'm still really trying to get my mind around the original idea, I must admit.... to me, it reads somewhat like a "Gadgetry" pool powerset might.
Each slot taken allows the character to "equip" a pool-related "temp power" built using the invention system (expanding on the existing temp powers concept), with recipes unlocked via the badge system (expanding on the memorized recipes concept, in a way), and at least somewhat modifiable to their personal taste in terms of it's visual impact on the character via the tailoring system (or some similar adjunct).
Presumably the "gadgets" would be tuned to the level of power of a typical pool power, in that implementation at least. Whether that was the intent in the original post, I'm not entirely clear on.
How close does that track to what was being proposed?
Customisation etc I would see done either at a tailor or as part of the item creation process which uses the same UI as the tailor to design. perhaps with an additional tab for "detail work" - ie: modification of a particular piece.
as already suggested by another user though, there should really be an option to not display the item which, while it goes against my original concept would make the idea more approachable to more people.
also, I used the term Item instead of gadget as I was thinking more of an origin specific set of tools and gadget suggested more of a tech based origin than anything else to me. Perhaps "item" gives too much of a fantasy/magic based atmosphere to the idea.
Quote:All that said, evaluating likelihood of implementation based on what I think is proposed: I do think it is significantly more effort than is likely to be given to anything short of a brand new powerset, in particular due to the tie to costuming options. They haven't even gotten around to allowing customization of the existing pool and epic sets yet... adding any reasonable selection of what would essentially be visually customizable temp powers is _very_ low probability, I suspect.
Quote:My two cents... much appreciated either way.
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classic internet crusader complex: being polite and engaging in rational discussion is too much effort so I'll boil your posting style down to a handy category and dismiss you that way leaving me with the "win".
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Quote:and yet you managed to completely miss the part where I said,Of course it's an attempt at tankmagery. The OP gave that away right away with this explanation.
Even tho the OP attempts to argue that these "items" are similar to the temp powers that already exist in the game, when have we ever been able to slot temp powers with even 1 enhancement let alone 6.
Oh and I may be wrong about this but don't people that do a lot of exemping put a self imposed level cap on the enhancements they slot of 25 or 30?
Quote:Items have powers but are less powerful than their powerset equivalents. Healing aura from the bio-sympathetic spoo slime stored in a bottle is not as effective as healing from Harry Healz, Medical Master extraordinaire.
additionally, "like temporary powers" does nto mean "the same as" temporary powers. I suggested that they be slottable with a restricted set of enhancements capped at a level that I offered as a suggestion.
you seem to have decided to read some sort of conspiracy into it somehow.
allowing slotting would make the item more desirable to the player and more useful at higher levels.
Not allowing IO sets that give set bonuses and procs cuts out a form of abuse, which I have already posted.
Do many people cap enhancements at 30 for themselves? maybe they do. Is that a reason to claim a suggested cap of 30 is an attempt at tank magery? I dont think so, what level would you suggest?
I think you need to re-examine your definition of tank-magery because I see a difference between versatility and master-of-all-trades.
@Sharker_Quint_001 : thats your opinion and you are entitled to hold it. However, I would defy you to show me in any FAQ or rulebook on teh game that this is NOT how coh is meant to be played, that it is breaking some rule somewhere. I would also ask how it is that you can speak for every player of CoH? Was there an election to make you our spokesman? As I said, I acknowledge that you have an opinion and I wouldnt criticise you for having it but please dont state it as fact when it clearly isnt. -
Quote:hence the limits on what can be slotted into it and the suggestion that the item is LESS powerful than a pwoerset power. the trade off is diversity and versatility. I have in no way condoned the idea of having a tank that can 1 shot a lieutenant from a distance nad it should be obvious from the multiple times I have suggested balance of power and capping of abilities that I do not support. Also, while I am not a fan of AE myself, there are plenty of players that have not abused the system and have produced some very enjoyable content. By your argument, AE should never have been introduced because players abused it. yes some players will min max, yes some players will attempt to manipulate a system to get an unfair advantage that goes against the spirit of the system itself. The only way to stop this is to ensure the system is implemented as fairly as possible and nailed down as tightly as possible from the outset. Sidekicking was abused to powerlevel toons, think how abused the current system of teaming would have been if they hadnt altered the XP earned to compensate for the actual level of the player earning it.So, power customization. Choosing your own effect for the power?
Sounds suspiciously like an attempt at getting tankmagery added to the game. If it can be anything you want it to be, that is EXACTLY what it will be used for, and you should know that by now. Give people the option for power, they WILL abuse it. Look what happened with AE. "Write my own stories? Screw THAT, I'm gonna make a PL farm!"
Quote:This is a HUGE problem. I have to SACRIFICE power choices to use this crap? What powers? I si random, or do I choose the powers I give up.
you dont sacrifice a power choice. you choose to spend your power slot on a different power, just like a power pool selection or a APP selection.
You dont give up a power, you just select a different one at that level.
where have I given any hint that you would sacrifice a random power? serisouly, I think you are reading what you want to read in a determined effort not to like whats infornt of you. It really sounds like you read two lines and though "NO!" and then everythign else was read with the determination that your original feeling could not and would not be wrong.
Quote:No one, and i mean NO ONE is going to be willing to sacrifice their scrapper's tier 9 attack, mez protection and self heal to use some stuff that is no more than glorified temp powers.
Quote:Look at the prices they are going for. And then look at the prices of the things that are actually popular among the players.
Luck of the Gambler +Recharge goes for 100-300 million influence.
The most EXPENSIVE temp power is maybe 100k.
If temp powers were as popular as you claim, their prices would be significantly higher.
Simple logic: Temp powers exist. They can be gotten extremely cheaply on the market.
There is no shortage of temp powers available to buy.
If people WANTED these temp powers, they wouldn't be selling them dirt cheap like that.
Quote:People routinely complain that they are getting too many temp power drops and they are taking up space in their inventory. And they unload the ones they don't delete for dirt cheap, because no one wants them enough to pay more for them.
All of that tells me that people don't want to be bothered with an item system in the game. You bring up "actively traded temp powers" in an attempt to bolster your argument. What you did was point out that temp powers are unloaded dirt cheap because no one wants them. -
Quote:and yet there are players who feel just as strongly opposed to temp opwers and would prefer a temp power to have some sort of customisation to make it more fitting to their character. One poster on this thread already stated their hatred of temps and patron power pools because of the lack of control they have over their backstory , appearance and name. Old adage of cant please all of the people comes to mind.If you had suggested that we get some more variety in temp powers and the ability to add charges by crafting more of them, I might have gone along with it.
Quote:Your idea here though:
1) Is unnecessarily complicated.
Quote:2) Actually PUNISHES players who choose to use it by forcing them to sacrifice power choices to use it.
Quote:3) Would require the devs to spend time coding and programming something that a large percentage of the players will ignore because of point 2.
Quote:4) Can already be done using temp powers, which DO NOT force you to give up power choices to use.
Quote:5) Completely discards one of this games biggest selling points. Namely the fact that your character's abilities and appearance have nothing to do with each other.
Quote:You admitted yourself that the worst that can happen is everyone ignores it, right?
But, if everyone ignores it that is a significant amount of development time completely wasted. Time that could have been used on features people would appreciate and use.
Quote:I'm sure you're peeved because no one thinks your idea is as good as you think it is. But the simple fact remains that this is a bad idea that does absolutely nothing to improve the game.
Quote:If people want to use items, they can A) Roleplay their characters' powers as coming from said items, or B) use temp powers. Doing it that way doesn't force them to give up power choices.
Quote:Doing it your way, they will have to give up power choices that may completely cripple their character to not have. And they will have to deal with items appearing on their character that they may not want there.
Quote:The appearance of people's characters is important to them. Just look at how pissed a bunch of people are getting about costume pieces and auras being unlocked through the Incarnate system. Here, you're expecting them to defeat X number of enemies to unlock an item that adds things to their costume against their will, AND makes them give up power picks to do it?
Quote:And you think people are going to LIKE this?
Quote:I know, I know: "If they don't like it, they don't have to use it."
I already addressed that. New feature everyone hates and refuses to use = wasted development time. -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...hlight=airport
there ye go. airport zone suggestion from Lord mayhem. -
me likes. I've always been a fan of zone events that arent too disruptive for players that dont want to take part. the yellow reticled idea is a good one and I definitely like the idea of the targets being different.
I would also either have the event triggered by a player action (perhaps 3 successful Lambdas sparks an counter incursion?) or have it on a random timer to add to the chaos -
whatever happened the city vault? at least I think thats what it was called, where you could access your toons without actually playing CoH. an android app to allow players to use the auction house, use invention crafting, access bank and SG stores would be nice (well, maybe not SG stores). No mad graphics, just basic interfaces.
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wastelands outside praetoria perhaps? with new-more evolved Devouring Earth, mutated animals and a tribe or two of degenerate humans, maybe with a "sanctuary" style location, seperate from Cole and his minions where they are trying to rebuild but without the aid of supers so far.
you could have dinosaurs there(hows that for bribery)
and ponies. with fluffy tails that poop gumdrops.
there was a suggestion before for an airport zone outside of paragon city and the Rogue isles that could be a co-op zone for missions around the globe. IIRC that was met with quite a bit of approval from the forum users (was it EU_DAMZ that posted it? I'll give my search-fu a run out later and post back if I find it). -
Quote:and what happens if the Devs spend a load of time of content that no-one plays? been a while since I was invited on an SSTF1 run. Same can be said for ANY addition to the game. Make it useful and make it balanced and you add to the player's experience and it gives an option that wasnt there before without taking away from other player's fun.So, what happens if the devs spend a bunch of time doing all this stuff....and everyone completely ignores it? Well, the devs will have just wasted a crap ton of time they could have spent on something more useful.
Quote:As I said before, if people wanted to play a game where you pick up items to enhance your character, they would already be playing that game. The very fact that they are playing this game seems to be a pretty good indication that the players of this game don't want to be bothered with an item system.
Quote:And one final point. None of the things you mentioned in actual comics are things that those characters used ALL THE TIME.
Okay, Spider-Man picked up a pumpkin bomb and used it, on a couple occasions. Did he KEEP some pumpkin bombs and use them all the time after that?
Quote:Batman is a character who revolves around using items, but he invented most of them himself, and they are part of his character.
Quote:If you want the occasional item the character can pick up and use....well, those already exist in the game. They're called TEMP POWERS.
Quote:There is ZERO reason to make a more complicated system just to add something to the game that is already in it. -
Quote:thanksWhat your suggesting is actually already in the game. We call them Inventions though. I'm being serious.
Way back when Jack was still Statesman he was working forever on the much touted, highly anticipated skill system. This skill system was to augment our natural abilities and give us some leeway in broadening our roles. Things like Spy gear, Computer Hacking, Magic potions and the like.
From what I recall, the speculation was the skill system would work like a combination of enhancements and temp powers. Someone that focused on the Barter skill for example would get discounts at the tailor and stores.
He worked on the skill system for well over a year and half before finally realizing it just wouldn't work in this game. So it was altered and reimaged for another year+ then finally.
Finally, the Invention system was announced. Much to the shock of the forums. We had never heard of this Invention system! What happened to the lauded Skill system?
So Jack came down from on high to tell us the tale of woe. How he was unable to properly balance the skills for all AT's and thus it was scrapped for the simpler to use and code IO's.
Just FYI.
balance would be key. the powers would have to be limited to not remove the benefit of teaming but still give some benefit to the toon. I would also hate to see the item slot used as a means of getting set bonuses from an IO set that te AT would typically not have access to for balance reasons. hence the suggestion that the enhancements be limited to SO and generic IOs. Perhaps training enahncements as well seeing as they are origin neutral. -
Quote:I have suggested powersets and zones and power pools and branching powersets (along the lines of the VEATS but without changing the AT itself but instead changing slightly the flavour of the powers on offer ) in the past, sometimes to good reception sometimes to bad. I have also posted a suggestion of random "events" for zones as well as a suggestion for a random mission drop that strung together in an overall story (clue missions). I'd like to think that the clue mission drop was somehow indirectly incorporated into the tip missions system but I would not like to be that presumptuous. most likely the two ideas grew seperately and with no connection or influence on one another. great minds and fools etc...Two things to address:
1. If what you want isn't covered by the current powersets system, I suggest you focus on suggesting new powersets, expansions to current powersets, the introductions of new power pools or epic pools patron pools. Temporary powers and not enhanceable, often immune to buffs, are unreliable and, worst of all, constitute using other people's technology.
Quote:2. I want to choose what adventures my "toons" have had by myself, and often choose to depict them having adventures outside of the game's directly-stated environment. I view my characters as original creations shaped by my own imagined fiction, not by what the game tells me they are. It is for this reason that I HATE temporary powers, because they're just a meta-game boost with no customization options of any kind. They're "stats" more often than they're an integral part of a character.
Quote:And then, completely separate from the above, is the fact that these temporary powers DO become the status quo. Take, for instance, the three Veteran powers that many of us have now. At character creation, you are born with three incredibly powerful attacks for the time. Sure, damage ATs grow out of them quickly as their own damaging attacks become better, but non-damage-dealers do get use out of them throughout the levels. I do my best to pretend I don't have these powers, which is one more reason I don't play non-damage-dealers - it's not as easy to ignore the powers then. When you put powers in the game that people COULD have, all you do is shift the status quo up. If you give people the choice between having more power and not having more power, then that's no choice at all.
Would they become the status quo? I'm not sure. they would be less powerful than inherent selected powers but they give diversity. if enough players want diversity at the expense of power then fair enough. perhas that would point more to a failing in the limitations of the current ATs than anything else. Or perhaps it would point to a hole in a powerset that players feel needs plugging in another way.
Quote:You should never, ever put the player in a situation where he has to pick between performance and concept. Being who and what we want to be AND being strong at the same time is one of City of Hero's greatest achievements. ANYTHING which runs counter to that is aberrant in my eyes.
Quote:Question: Why do you need this to be in the form of temporary powers? What's stopping you from, for instance, claiming that you took your Targeting Drone from a defeated enemy? Or your Shuriken? Or your Arachnos Mace? Hell, that has "Arachnos" in the name. This is, in fact, the same issue I have with City of Villains Patron Powerpools - I HATE the things. I do not want to go around using other people's powers, but for the longest time, that was the only option available. People kept telling me "Well, say you stole their powers." "Well, say you intimidated them into giving you their powers." I don't want to!
Quote:I choose my character's stories, I write my character's stories. They are mine and nobody else's. The more the game attempts to butt in and fill in the blanks for me, the less interested I am to play it. If I need my characters' concepts to be put together by chance and happenstance, I am fully capable of writing their stories and building their costumes and powers accordingly. I do not need the game to do it for me, and as a point of fact, I don't WANT the game to do it for me. I want the creative freedom to tell MY stories and build MY characters as I imagined them, not how the game's random chance chose to play them out for me.
Quote:In fact, for your viewing pleasure, I present MyBrute, a fighting game where character development is entirely based on chance and happenstance. Characters level up and get skills and points assigned to them by the system, in so doing developing their own unique fighting style, tactics, strengths and weaknesses. And I must admit that it's somewhat charming to watch them grow. And even then, this is not how I want my characters to evolve and power up. My characters develop how I want them to develop, not by how they interact with the meta-game world.
I'm thinking, from your posts, that we possibly have a miscommunication here and that I have perhaps failed to properly describe the system I am suggesting. Would it help if you post a clear synopsis of what you think I mean and I come back with where I see differences and attempt to clarify? -
Quote:I agree that CoH is different from marvel or DC. I was responding to posters examples of how items arent used by superheroes by using the same references.What Marvel and DC comics choose to write in their comic books has no bearing on what NCSoft/Paragon Studios chooses to put in their game. If they want to put that crap in their own MMO's then they are free to do so.
CoH is , however, still part of the superhero genre and if all we have to reference the superhero genre is other superhero publications and games then I think they are valid reference points. The original idea for items came from a table top villains and vigilantes where a player asked me if he could take Doctor Destruction's power glove... my initial reaction was "no!" but after a bit of thinking I finally said "ok, but there are conditions and limitations". the player was happy, the rest of the group was happy and the limitations were enough that widespread looting did not kick off as I had feared it would. It even opened up some nice plot hooks like a paralell earth scenario when one player decided to research a teleportation device and rolled a critical failhe was very popular with the rest of the group.
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Quote:exactly, the item should not give a power equivalent to an inherent power. an item heal should be lower than an empath heal . Thats also why I suggested the cap on enhancement level usable as well and the restriction to SOs or basic IOs , so they couldnt be used to gain procs or bonuses not normally available to the toon through IO sets.I think I suggested something similar months ago and had the same response. Something like an extra ring, necklace, and bracelet slot.
Something like this I dont think would be a game breaker if it meets the following criteria:
1. There is an option to NOT visibly display the item.
2. The item gives a very minimal buff to the player and/or minor power. Or maybe just fluff - like click the "rainbow ring" and a rainbow emanates from your position.
3. The item has no impact on the drop rates of other items such as
salvage, recipes and enhancements.
The items, in essence, would be very weak versions of the incarnate powers. I wouldnt have a problem with this, although you could make the argument that there are a lot of other things that the Devs should prioritize first - like more content.
I agree, no impact on drop rates. It should have as little impact on anything as possible and try to merge seemlessly with whats already there.
I, personally, would not opt to not display an item but I can see your point and agree that an option to have the item not display would be useful and preferable to some while an option to have the item incorporated into the toons costume would be preferrable to others. making it optional would cater to both worlds.
However I would not see them as weak version of incarnate powers, I would see them as weaker versions of standard powerset powers but with more variety available to them , the further away from the baseline power they go the weaker they get. The idea would be to make hte items incapable of allowign a tank to compete with a blaster for ranged damage but maybe give the tank a ranged attack with a minor or zero damage component (ranged knockdown attack perhaps to allow a tank to catch a fleeign enemy or time to close the distance while their target recovers). Just so the toon has the option to become more rounded and make it closer to the idea the player has in their mind.
+1 on the more content partbut this is the "suggestions and ideas" section of the "for fun" section of th eforum so no harm posting an idea or two... or thats what I thought anyway
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Quote:superman used an item called the motherbox that gave him extra items (sword and shield) to fight doomsday. thats an item, not another character helping. it was an item given to him by antoher and not actual salvage, granted, but he did strap on a sword and shield to make himself a little bit tougher.More to the point:
A guy who can throw a tank, and survive a direct hit from a Stinger missile.....has no reason to put on some headband to be a little tougher.
It's the genre of the game. When's the last time you saw Spider-Man pick up a defeated gang member's pistol and use it? When's the last time you saw The Hulk put on a kimono because it would make him jump farther?
Collecting items to use from defeated enemies just doesn't make sense in this genre of game. You're a superhero, you don't need to collect crap to get stronger, you are already as strong as you need to be.
I think I did see hulk in a kimono in one comic strip, he definitely did get aboriginal tattoos at one time though, there's nothing to say that a player couldnt decide to have their costume piece as a tribal tattoo.
by your own logic, you shouldnt need to gain levels or get any powers beyond the first tier, you're a super hero, you are already as strong as you need to be. you dont need enhancements or invention systems, you dont need incarnate abilities, you dont need to select any power pools. And yet we do select them, why? because it allows us to experience more content and in a different way (LGTF as a lvl 45 blaster is a lot different from LGTF as a incarnate slotted scrapper!). Diversity could only expand the possibilities for experiencing the game, it cant actually detract from it as , if it did, no one would opt to use it. -
Quote:and that would, for the most part remain unchanged. A toon would have a maximum of 4 items usable at any one time. for those 4 items the player has already given up 4 power selections and voluntarily tied them to costume pieces, that are designed by the player themselves so they fit their toon. Also, abilities arent completely decoupled from items as things stand, pleanty of powersets have an item that acts as the focus for powers, Assault rifle, mace, battle axe, broadsword. Plentyof temp powers summon an item you have no control over the look of or any say in the operation of the power : temp jetpack power, jumppack, revolver, st. louis hammer, etc etc.Most of the time when MondoCool posts something (*cough* clown power set *cough*) I shake my head, do an epic facepalm, and find something better to do with my time.
Even so, I do think MondoCool is correct in this particular matter. One of the major features of CoH is that powers and abilities are not limited to costume parts. That feature, the Enhancement System itself, decouples Items from Abilities, and ultimately gives players far greater flexibility in building their avatar.
Quote:I would remind you Evangel that when MMO Developers incorporate wide-ranging changes to their base gameplay in order to make their existing game more like another MMORPG the ending result is often a near total loss of all existing subscribers. Case in point being S.O.E. Star Wars Galaxie's New Game Enhancement which netted catastrophic subscription losses. A far less drastic drop in subscriptions was also witnessed in S.O.E. Planetside as changes such as Battleframe Robotics and the Lattice Link Unit systems were rolled out.
Quote:Copying and implementing other game concepts on a wholesale level often result in a general failure to recruit subscribers from existing games, in that such "potential" subscribers will likely not see a duplication of features as an adequate reason to leave the game they currently subscribe to. In this case I would remind you of WarHammer Online which EA/Mythic thought was going to pull from Activision/Blizzard's WarCraft audience. As the final sales records showed... that never happened. For the most part WarCraft players weren't interested in a relative duplicate of the game they were already playing.
Quote:Given the industry track-record for such changes or shifts in design goals, the idea you suggest is poorly researched at best. In either the best or worse case scenarios, such changes would not draw in new players, and would cause the existing playerbase to leave. -
Quote:I do appreciate your concerns and your viewpoint but already we cart around items that the characters use (ghost slaying axe for example - with veteran rewards, a "permanent" temporary power - that one of my toons pulls from somwhere within her bustier or miniskirt). Yes the game started with absolutely no loot whatsoever (overlooking inspirations and enhancement drops as loot, which technically, they are. since inception there have been farms of sorts harvesting mobs for insps or enhancements - I believe freakshow were quite popular as they gave DO enhancement drops quite frequently). So, while i agree with your posckets argument, I think the idea of creating a customised costume part to represent an equippable power actually addresses that better than the current temp power set up - which I agree breaks immersion for me as well as it stands.As far as I'm concerned, the fewer the "items" in the game, the better it is overall. One of the primary reasons why the game started off with no loot was exactly because the hypothetical situation you describe in your original post is very, very specific. In a sword and sorcery game, you can be expected to pick up items from the ground and use them. In a super hero game... That doesn't really work. Super heroes are far, FAR too broad a term and far too many of them just don't make sense to cart items around. Most of them don't even have pockets.
Quote:Granted, someone like Batman or the Punisher might make sense to snag an item off a defeated criminal, research it and use it, or make his own item just like it, that much I admit. But then you have characters like, say, Superman. The guy doesn't even have a utility belt. His powers are many and varied, but none of them come from the stuff he carries. He doesn't have goggles of x-ray vision or Mentos of frost breath, right? Or how about someone like the Silver Surfer? He doesn't even have clothes. All he has is a surf board and a Ken doll physique. All of his abilities come from the Power Cosmic.
Wolverine has used items (firearms and swords as well as nightvision goggles and parachutes) as have , as you already noted, batman and the punisher. Spiderman has used items that he picked up from a defeated enemy (green goblin bombs at one point - those silly pumpkin grenades). I havent read every single superhero comic issue ever released but it seems that quite a common theme is super hero has powers, super hero comes up against an enemy they cant defeat, super hero finds another way that doesnt involve their actual powerset. (though in supermans case this got to the ridiculous state of inventing new powers that he just never used before and would never use again because he was... ehhh super...)
Quote:Yes, granted, we have temporary powers now. And I hate the lot of them. I liked the game back in the day when those disappeared when you finished the mission that gave them to you or just took too long. Personally, I'm not a fan of Inventions temporary powers and I would DEFINITELY not like to see that concept expanded to include even more superfluous powers.
Quote:When it comes to character powers, I want those to be restricted to what I take from the powers system. Powersets, power pools, inherent powers and the slots we put in them.
Quote:I don't want to see us get our powers from happenstance. I want my characters' powers to reflect the concept I have for them, not the luck of the draw as to what dropped on that particular one. -
Quote:so temp powers that are currently in the game are lewt? IOs and salvage are lewt? I dont see that these have broken the game as it stands./This
The OP can deny it all he or she wants but items are lewt and it's a headache we don't need in this game.
I agree 100% that defeat the creature , click to loot the corpse is silly and ruins mmos. World of lootcraft was like that and it sucked.
This however would instead be, get the badge for the accomplishment/achievement then *if you want* you can craft an item related to the faction involved in the badge. Not forced. No looting or treasure hunting other than the current system of salvage.
As for "bring me x elf bladders and y kobold scrotums and I shall reward you with this wand of wandiness" missions. it would no more resemble that than "bring me X threads + y incarnate salvage and I shall reward you with this Judgement power", in fact, it would be less so as the badges already exist, it would just be an optional side extra that a toon could do to round out their abilities a bit and give a bit of diversity. (but I agree, I hated those missions in fantasy rpgs as well).
Costume changes: Personally I have fond memories of my fighter in Ultima Online that had a silver Halberd. My guild mates knew me as the toon with the silver halberd on a white horse. I used that hally even when there were better items available. I died three times trying to recover it from my corpse (well, twice, the third time was very close. those that remember UO probably remember that once you died you had to run to a shrine to be raised and then leg it back to collect your gear from your body before someone looted you!). So I like the idea of a "physical" representation of an in game power, however I do think you're right, if it looks stupid players wont want it and it would be unfair. I probably didnt write above clearly enough about the options for th euser to create the items, they choose the appearance and what they are as well as the power itself.
Powers: the power would be usable an infinite number of times however, the ITEM itself could only be equipped and unequipped a limited number of times before being useless. once equipped it would be usable until unequipped. This I would see as a balance to stop toons having tons of items and constantly swapping and changing the arsenal on a whim. To equip or not becomes a choice that must be considered.
forum maintenance about to hit so I'll respond to je_saist a little later. -
hmmm, apart from the hostile tone I can see your points. However I think you've misinterpreted what I posted.
1. its not "lewt", you dont loot corpses. You dont have to do anything beyond the badge system that is already in the game.
2. it doesnt make the game "item based". a toon can have a maxium of 4 items at any one time and these items are lower powered than powerset powers. the ONLY benefit is versatility.
3. the costume parts would be customisable to give the player as much choice as possible while still having the costume part have an effect in game that doesnt break the atmosphere (naked person pulling out an assault rifle from thin air when they are natural origin?)
4. how would this give rise to "bring me X number of Y" missions? you already get badges for defeats and accomplishments, this doesnt require anything more than is currently in the game. badge + salvage, which is already dropped by enemies of all types. The only, and I do mean only, change is that your costume piece is tied into the power which is also based on its origin (faction/badge). You already get costume pieces, you already get temporary powers, you already choose powers at those levels. the toon doesnt actually get ANYTHING other than the option of slightly more versatility than the power pools.
@MondoCool : calm down ffs. I didnt threaten your family or religious beliefs, I suggested something for an online game. -
Righty, I havent thought this through completely but thought I'd post up my thoughts so far and see if there are any opinions to make it workable/useful.
Items:
You've defeated Doctor Destruction and literal beat the nanites out of him but these nanites are dangerous so you've enlisted the aid of Portal corp to create a container (and collector) for the nanites. Now, they're sitting on your Supergroup shelf and they look pretty. Suddenly Bob the barbaric Beast from Beyond the bed and Bath turns up and he's learned a new trick since your last encounter. He's completely immune to bullets and his insulating armour has made him immune to your energy punches. if only there were a way to fight him with some other tool at your disposal. hmmm, what if you injected yourself with the nanites, then you'd have the Doctor's power and you could knock seven shades out of Bob, then put the nanites back before anyone knows they're gone.
Thats pretty much it. taking an item from a defeated enemy, or enemy group, and putting it to use to add a bit of variance to your toon. Blaster a bit light on defense? How about hotwiring the forcefield generator from the Sky Raiders into your tech-based power pack and have it generate a lower powered more localised field just around you?
Some rules for items:
at levels 12 , 26, 35 and 50 you get the option to forego a power selection and instead invest in an item slot. You can only ever have a maximum of 4 item slots.
Items can only be used if they are of the same origin as the user (a bit like enhancements)
Items are costume pieces. eg: if you equip the headband of mystical nastiness that you got from the circle of thorns, then your toon has the headband added to their costume. Only the bravest will wear the red undies of externality and imperviousness...
Items are crafted (bought) using salvage but do not require a recipe. (1 rare, 1 uncommon + 2 common, preferably from the ones that dont have much current market value like spirit thorn)
Items have powers but are less powerful than their powerset equivalents. Healing aura from the bio-sympathetic spoo slime stored in a bottle is not as effective as healing from Harry Healz, Medical Master extraordinaire.
Items are slottable but only with SOs of the same origin or generic IOs (accuracy, etc) and only to a maximum level of effectiveness (I was think max lvl 30 SO/IO but others may think otherwise). Once an item is removed from its item slot and put back on the shelf any enhancements are lost (consumed by the item?).
Item "bays" are slottable, up to a maximum of 6 the same as regular powers.
A player must have storage for items not in use. Items take up 5 Salvage slots and cannot be stored in the auction house. SG storage can be used (the vault perhaps? gives access to either the SG vault or the toon vault, select on click)
Items have limited uses, each time an item is attached/detached a counter is incremented. once it hits X number the item breaks apart.
Items cannot be sold in AH (stops storage there). But can be traded if they are not currently activated. The number of charges left before uselessness would be described as a condition (new, used, worn, damaged) and an actual number (randomly generated with variance around a core figure) would never be shown to a player.
An item can be created based on a list of options available to a toon based on the accomplishment/achievement/defeats/gladiator badges held by that toon.
so, using the rules above.
Joe the Tank (Tech origin, Super strength / Invul ) hits level 12 and instead of selecting a power opts to reserve a space for an item slot.
However, Joe has only playe din Architect Entertainment up to now and those defeats dont count toward badges (well, the items arent real so you cant really have an item based on a hologram...ok, you can, but for now lets assume not) so joe decides to take the loading screen's advice and heads off to go hunt. kill skuls. which he does to great effect in perez park earning himself the Bonecrusher badge. Delighted, Joe rushes back to get to a city info terminal to see what he needs to make an item. Unfortunately, the Skulls are a magic based group so the tech based offerings are quite meagre (a baseball bat with a neon stripe to - unconvincingly -make it look like its hovering) . Better look for a tech based enemy group... like those clockwork across the road... off he goes smashing and pulverising, joining a team that happens to be doing a clockwork arc and prefers clockwork based newspaper missions.
At 15th level, the gearsmasher badge is awarded! Time to check the info terminal.
clockwork are mechanical so mechanical powers would be suitable. gearsmasher involves clockwork gears so perhaps the following could be a possibility:
Gears: by suspending the gear components in a magnetic field their allegiance can be overwritten and the gears themselves stored until required. once activated 1 clockwork gear for every 10 levels of the user will be summoned. gears will be 3 levels lower than the user. Once summoned the gears will attack any enemies nearby using melee attacks only.
Energy Transfer: Clockwork are known for their ability to drain endurance from a toon. This power will allow the user to drain endurance from an enemy and transfer some of that drained energy to himself.
Joe decides he likes the thought of Energy Transfer so he selects that power. next is the choice of what form the item is to take.
option 2: Function
Ranged or Melee or Field or build up
Field would be an aura like lightning field that drains end but has an end cost to maintain (Toggle)
Build up would be like the Electric armour buildup but without the +to hit or + damage. It would instead add a End Drain compponent to all other attacks for a period of time (Click)
all options drain the same amount of endurance per hit but there is a difference in the efficiency of conversion (ranged drains 20 end and gives 10 to the user , melee drains 20 and gives the user 13 field returns 6 and build up returns 5)
Joe opts for Melee:
option 3: Form:
Gloves: the ED component is built into a pair of gloves.
Shoulder pads
Boots
Joe opts for Gloves and equips the item. He immediately gets a new power, an open palm punch that touches the enemy with the ED crystal in the palm of the hand. However, the blue glow doesnt suit Joe's costume so he heads to the tailor and , for a small fee, has the item changed to glow red instead.
Joe slots the item slot with 4 empty slots and then puts in 2 x lvl 17 accuracy and 2x endurance modification.
These can be replaced and swapped as Joe sees fit but they never outlevel or fade.
Later, Joe has slotted his Stamina power enough that he no longer needs an End drain attack so he decides to replace the item with another. The 2xend mod and 2x accuracy Enhancements are lost. the glove costume piece is taken away and the item is placed into his inventory taking up 5 salvage slots. Joe can delete the item (gone for good), join a SG and place it in storage, place it in his bank (5 slots) or trade it to another player (the category would be "used" even though it was only removed once).
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some notes:
should the customising be done at a tailor or at time of creation? Should the toon have to pay to customise per costume slot?
The "life" of an item should be limited. just how limited though, I dont know. I would think an average of 10 points +/- 4 before an item is deemed unusable. or perhaps that is too generous and it should be 5 points + (1-4) or (5 +/- 2)
Should items be tradable? if not, will SGs just become a dumping ground? of course, personal storage areas or personal bases (apartments) would help with this.
What restrictions, if any, should be placed on what abilities are available through an item?
Should all items be given a "long" recharge time to make them inherently worse than "inherent" powers?
Should item slots be counted across "builds" or should each build have to slot its own items?
During a respec, I would prefer if it counts as "unequipping" an item with the loss of enhancements that it entails. Should the counter be incremented as well?
the main idea behind items is to
a: give flexibility but not replace powerset options
b: allow a toon to dabble in something that would otherwise be off limits to them (a tank taking a ranged attack) that helps soloing and group play but doesnt replace the benefit of teaming up.
c: a use for salvage for players that dont want to take part in the Invention system (ok, its still close but at elast its more grounded in the toon's experience and character).
d: Give toons a bit more visible individuality and the form vs function argument. yes the boots that give the bonus defense is a better fit but the gold blast visor that increases accuracy just looks so cool!
I havent had a chance to look at all of the enemy groups but briefly (to get a taste):
Skulls: Magic based group.
items would give: Dark powers
Hellions: Magic
items would give: Fire based powers
Clockwork: Tech
items would give: Endurance drain / boost powers, summoning (Gears)
alternatively, the powers coul dbe based on the badges:
Gearsmasher gives a tech based clockwork item or summon gears.
Clockstopper gives access to a summon sprocket power or a melee power (like babbage, perhaps a weapon based power involving a clockwork arm as a club?)
Knight Errant gives the option of a piece of armour to increase defense or a self heal?
Should badges give power options for all origins (differing for each origin with more powerful options being given to toons with an origin matching the faction?) eg: gearsmasher End Drain for tech > End Drain for Science > End Drain for Magic
perhaps something along the lines of:
............................Technology
...............Science.......................Natur al
.........................Magic........Mutant
Each space removed from the faction origin = -1 step in power:
eg: a science toon picking up a tech faction item => power level = -1
a magic toon picking up the same item ==> power level = -2
a Mutation toon picking up a CoT item ==> -1
This would give more options and while making some badges more attractive would not remove all benefits of other origin faction badges.
Anyway, as I said, its not a fully baked idea but hopefully some thoughts and opinions could help flesh it ou ta bit. ideas for faction rewards in both form and function would be welcome too