EmpireForgotten

Your definition of compete must be different than mine - compete =/= show up. My grandfather could show up to a flag football game and 'participate.' that does not mean that he is going to compete. If your concept of competing is the old "Show up and do your best Billy!" and you repeated get your head kicked in over and over again, then you must be a really really patient person. Judging by your posts in this thread, I would say you are not.

Einstein said that "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I've PvPed with the new and old systems quite a bit. Its Insane to expect that you can compete on a sqhishy without KB protection. You just can't do it - if you would like video evidence, I'm sure I can set up a livestream of me playing (Hell, we can get people who are considered the best in the game) to prove my point. I don't think you would watch though.

I didn't come here for free IOs, I was hoping to add to the discussion and see there was some type of solution that would help both sides.

I don't think anyone is agruing that you can participate in PvP with SOs. you also CAN run an AV mission at level 10.

Having the ability to participate isn't the issue - its the ability to compete.


Also, even in casual PvP - SO build vs SO build - KB still wins.

You can argue that the issue isn't with IOs, its with PvP. I would agree with you. But, we have been told that PvP will not be changed drastically, only tweaked. You would need a pretty big tweak to fix this issue. So PvPers will do something we have been accused of not doing: adapt to the given situation.

We have 2 choices in adapting:
1. Reroll specific melee toons with built in protection
2. IO

Option one wasn't acceptable in i4, in i9, in i12. You should be able to PvP with any concept character you want. Option 2 is what is being discussed in this post

This.

Like I said earlier up, I doubt I would be able to persuade anybody of my views because their experience would differ. I could continue, but why bother, you think Im wrong and I think you're wrong - in the end, doesn't matter.

I look forward to the day when changes are made, that is all

Again, I ask - How is it do-able?

I would counter that you cannot, infact, PvP with SOs. I have given several reasons why. KB is one of them, most definitely not all.

If you have evidence that shows that I am wrong, please show it. Keep in mind that you said compete, not participate. Yes, you can participate with SOs. your participation will be hitting the respawn button over and over again and not having a chance at getting any drops or rep or having a good time.

If you can explain to me how you can compete in PvP with only SOs, I would be glad to admit I am wrong (believe me, there isn't any snark to that comment, I really really want to admit I am wrong)

And for the record, you can't get to 41+ KB points without Zephyrs, which are a little higher than 5 million at the moment (more like 40-100)




Edit - the starcraft 2 beta is out now, so I official concede all debates. Very good points everyone and I hope our discussions were as rewarding for you as they were for me

The biggest drive for Purples was PvPers in i12. In i13 with the changes, a lot of your hardcore farmers stopped farming. In i14, AE made it easier to get money, but no Purple drops.

I know its captain obvious here, but its kinda easy to see where the problem is.

I really disagree with you. And its almost just as likely that I won't be able to explain my stance in a way that you will agree with me, but I will give it a whirl.

For over 2 years, all I did in this game was PvP. I thought of wierd lineups, I powerleveled PvP toons, I IO'd out PvP toons. It's the one thing I do in this game and it's the one thing I know a lot about. I'm Far from the best, but you can definately tell by watching me play that I know what I am doing.

I'm going to give a first hand example of why you can't PvP competitively with SOs. I was in RV the other night before I respecced my empath. My empath on live had SOs only - since I PvP'd on test server, IOs didn't matter to me on live. There was a competitive team on villain side and I was trying to form a team hero side to even the score. My night went like this

1. Levitate knocks you up - can't do anything for atleast 2 seconds
2. Dominate holds you for 2 seconds - again, still can't do anything for an additional 2 seconds
3. Respawn in the hospital. you're already dead

Now, I may joke that I am bad at PvP, and I am compared to some of the top tier participants, but I know how to survive a Spike if its possible. It is NOT possible with SOs to stop this type of a spike. It is not possible without even a small amount of IOs - you need a lot of IOs to counter this spike.

Flash forward to last night. My empath has respecced and I had to gut a base I used to use to copy IOs to test for build testing to get the IOs I needed (wow my grammar sucks - that sentence blows, anyways) Now, in an arena match, here is how it went

1. Levitate doesn't move you
2. Domainte holds you for 2 seconds -
3. Phase goes off and I live

The difference that IOs give you is 2 seconds in this scenario. and THAT is why they are required.
Now, this is my experience, and I have been around the block. If I can't stop a KB spike with SOs, then how should a new person to PvP or a casual PvPer do it?

So, is the problem with the availability of IOs, or the necessity that PvP requires of them? is it both? is it neither? All I know is the status quo currently isn't working. Im almost forced to resort to purchasing Inf from Gagoras because I can't spend weeks grinding out money like UberGuy suggests to get the necessary IOs needed to compete.

I completely understand where the market guys don't want things handed everyone on a silver platter because were 'lazy' or 'casual,' I don't want to have a complete Pimped out IO'd build - I know the work required to get it. I just want to be able to compete and have the IOs that are required to compete not cost 500million total. I want to be able to play the part of the game that I like without being forced into a mini game that I do. not. want. I'm sure people can understand how I feel just by thinking about how mad they would be if they were forced to PvP just to be able to do an end game task force.

Im the random PeeveePee guy quoted there. The point is valid no matter the forum. The reason you are seeing more and more "Market sucks" threads is because several people are trying to reestablish a PvP community and are coming back to the game WAY before the influence explosion started. I don't think i've ever had 500mil to my name and now single IOs are going for almost 6 times that.

You would think so. But its not the Uber IO build that is a problem. Let me give you a scenario that currently happens in Zone and arena PvP

Defenders forcebolt, Controllers/dominators levitate, Storms Gale all give over 40 points of KB with only SOs. Acrobatics gives 9 points of KB protection.

What will happen is a character with be KB'd, when they get up they will be then Held, by the time the hold expires, you are dead.

Even though these powers used to KB just as much in i12 and PvP 1.0, they weren't used as a valid tactic because an empath will be keeping CM up on a person so that, even though you get KB'd, you can phase or hibernate or evade before you are killed. Now, in PvP 2.0, since everything is an insta hold for atleast 2 seconds (sometimes longer with domination) before supression kicks in, you are usually dead before I can click hibernate or phase (Forget about evading with supression)

So, IOs are needed to negate the Knockback - since you can't negate the hold anymore.

Very interesting point

Very valid point on the Leveling to 50. This is a game that revolves around PvE, and getting to 50 the old fashioned way is perfectly acceptable. If I want to a new toon, its what I am going to have to do - no two ways about it.

But I really disagree with the best gear comment. This game is balanced around SOs. Its been stated that several times and is the basic premise for why the market is fine as is - atleast that's what I am gathering from this discussion post.

Since the game is balanced around SOs, I should be able to compete in PvP with SOs. This isn't possible given the current engine. Even if I build my team to counter my ineffectiveness, I still cannot compete. I'm forced into a mini game I don't want to play inorder to PvP.

If we take this a different direction, say, for example, that Shivans were required to complete a mission. (Literially, the mission requirements state to spawn a shivan) Also, lets say that there was no other way to get a shivan other than to enter bloody bay. Do you realize how insensed people would be?

The devs could argue that you dont Have to complete that mission - that's its an optional part of the game and that there is LOTS of other parts of the game for you to go. Is that a valid counter "Either do something you don't like to do" or "Don't do it all, play somewhere else"

don't disappoint, we're counting on you

I can accept difficult to farm, but how do you explain a full 2 hour practice with 8v8s going every 15 minutes and no one getting a drop?



*Edit* also, is it a concern that these IOs are going for more than the market cap and are now being traded outside the market?

20 inf PST for location/pickuptime

Biggest thing I notice about phase vs hibernate. If I make an epic phase on my controller, Im usually dead 10 seconds later after the stalker Phases and fishy spikes me.

Hibernate wins on all counts at the moment

I disagree. Its been proven that what the individual community wants will always be pushed back for the benefit of the majority and "Vision"

Look at the past history

i5 and i6 - Overall resist/defense nerfs and ED - several people ragequit, but most stayed and played it out

i9 - inventions - there was A LOT of drama about adding loot to this game, some ragequit, but most stayed and played it out

i12 - Acro nerf and psi blasters - lot of angst from PvPers, but almost all stayed and played it out

i13 - Big PvP nerf. Most quit, but several are back because we are complacent with whats in place and hope for change = Dev's win


We have proven track records that the devs are capable of making drastic decisions that alienate a whole segment of the community. Most of these changes are brought upon by the majority not liking something or not participating in something and they don't want to see various areas of programming go unused.
Example - before i5i6 there was a lot of discussion about how firetanks and herding were the only way to play and people were tired of it. inventions were added because there wasn't enough to do at the end game and influence was pointless. acro was nerfed because people wanted their KB attacks to mean something in PvP. i13 was specifically not meant for the pvp community, but for people that didn't PvP.



So, I think we will see changes eventually. I also disagree with your previous post that says PvP IOs are supposed to be as rare as purples. The drop rate of PvP IOs is like 1 and 200, the drop rate for purples is a lot higher. Considering I only PvP when I play this game and that I have never gotten a PvP drop, I think the drop rate is a little broken. Increasing the supply of PvP IOs does not make them less useful for the people who actually use them - it makes them less useful for the people who exploit the market

Then, what would you suggest happen? Nothing? Its working as intended.

I just have a couple questions I'd like you to answer if you would. I personally haven't played this game much since i14 started so most of what I remember is a year old and doesn't seem to work anymore.

Why does regular salvage cost more on the market now than it did a year ago? The Supply is about the same (1000 bids, 700 available), but the cost is about 5000 time that of a year ago for some Salvage?

Why does blueside market now remind me of redside market 1 year ago? Why does redside market now remind me of a third world country?



My point is this: This is a game - and its not EVE. This isn't a spreadsheet game where you need to spend more time out of game managing your spreadsheets than you do ingame game playing. This isn't a game where you should need to spend more time in that freakin market place than you do actually doing something.

I'm to the point where I wish someone would find a way to dupe and ruin the market.


At the end of the day - I already have my toons ill PvP with. I won't level another one because the cost of IOing them out isn't worth it to me.

People can defend the market mini game all they want, but I can guarantee you that it'll change eventually. There are more people upset with the market than enjoy playing it and its been proven that the majority will have their changes catered too.
*Substitute the word "PvP" in for the word "Market" in the last paragraph

Absolutely correct.

People who actually like (using the work 'like' for lack of a better word) PvPing aren't doing it for the drops, they are doing it to win. Im not going to kill the tank just because he hasn't died yet and I "might" get a drop from him. Im going to continue beating on the people I know I can kill.

Rep system needs to go - I think the suggestion of the sirens bounty system would work very well to award PvP IOs.

I always thought Purples were supposed to be the uber rare end game IOs. PvP IOs were supposed to be normal IOs outside of PvE. The supply of Normal IOs is high because they are easier to get in PvE. Therefore PvP Ios should be easier to get in PvP

I would agree - quote pyramids of 10 deep should be respected.

I would also like to propose bonus points to any team that causes any of the following:

1. Bring's PvEers into the fight - because we all know its more fun to Pick on people who will probably take things we say srsly.
2. Causes amazing amounts of nerdrage from the opposing team
3. Causes Opposing team to forget that they are better than you - you don't have to be the best PvPer to be the best Forum PvPer
4. Causes the excuse "Well atleast I have a life..." from opposing team
5. Internet tough guy meme's appearing in the thread - DQ will result if they are not appropriate (Example: Posting a picture of an e-thug college student nerd to describe someone who is clearly 11 and has down syndrome)

I also disagree with limiting 2 per team. It really limits your lineups in Forum PvP. For example, dUmb has Slax and I, which make a pretty decent sarcastic combo. But we also have Psoma, who can drop a /psypunk like nobodies business.

And, I mean, you have your lineup which has the Vinnie and Silit. Vinnie invented being a ****** on the internet, so you gotta start him. But your roster has so much other talent that limiting 2 per team would be a waste.


Perhaps we can limit it to only 2 banned thread per week before you are disqualified?