Eisregen_NA

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Power values are the same. AT mods are different, except for the Perception debuff which is hard coded at -90% for all of these powers.

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Sorry to be a stickler, _Castle_ but the reasoning escapes me here. -Runspeed, -Recharge (together being a Slow effect) and -Perception all appear to be DeBuffs to me. So technically, a Defender bonus for Buffs and DeBuffs should apply. Yet it does not. I assume part of it is play balance issues (the -PER effects anyways), but that makes me wonder... does any other AT have comparable issues?

Do Controllers not get their AT bonus for Holds but only fpr all other Mezzes? Do Blasters not get their AT bonus for Snipes, but for all other Blasts? The only comparable situation I can think of -and this is only in the widest sense comparable- is how Stalker/Energy Melee relates to Criticals from Hiding.

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I'm not sure we know the devs are happy with the power level of Defenders (but I think we can all agree that buffing them is not high on their priorities). I know I'm sure not convinced Defender damage needs to be as low as it is. Should it be lower than Blasters? Definitely. That much lower? I don't see it.

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Yes we are. Statesman himself said it from his high-and-mighty throne. Look upon this post, ye might, and despair:

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Basically, we've already committed to looking at several Archetypes and builds for I5 and afterwards, but I've said nary a word about Defenders. Why? Because of all the Archetypes, we're happiest with them. There are certainly issues with individual sets and powers - and those we're always looking at. Defenders, however, don't have any overarching problems.

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Admittedly, he said 'happiest'. But considering that in the thread this comment spawned, almost all of the bugs that _Castle_ found and partially already fixed were mentioned and nothing was done about them until _Castle_ came along speaks for itself.

The whole train wreck can be read here.

Here's how I see it:

Control means I force a certain form of behaviour onto my target. Immobilize = Can't move. Disorient = Can't attack. Hold = Can neither move nor attack.

A DeBuff simply makes it harder for my target to behave in the fashion they would like to. Slow = Can move, but not as quickly. Accuracy DeBuff = Can attack, but is less likely to hit.

There is an obvious division between Slow and actual Controls. Note that Controls are always binary. You're never 'a bit Immobilized'. Either you are or you're not. Also note that DeBuffs are always capped. There is a Slow cap below which an enemy can never fall, no matter how many Slows I stack on them. Accuracy bottoms out at 5% and so on.

However, even with this definition, there remain two borderline cases with KB/D/U and Repel as they have aspects of both. These are the powers I'd classify as the actual 'Soft Control' powers.

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Er...I don't see any way -acc can be called soft control. It has absolutely nothing to do with control whatsoever.

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I've seen a few controllers insist that debuffs are soft control that make defenders "too good" at control compared to controllers. One said to me that Tenebrous Tentacles + Darkest Night was just as good as an AoE hold, because the villains aren't actually hitting.

Note: I refer to the above argument as "weaseling," but hey.

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Yeah. It's kind of like saying that damage is a form of soft control and therefore, everybody is 'too good' at control. After all, a dead villain isn't actually hitting.

Some people...

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Poor Forcefield is obviously getting the worst of it - with half the powers, it's 'just fine' that a Defender is no better or worse than a Controller?

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Actually, I think Trick Arrow gets the worst of it -- three powers that work better for Controllers in all regards (if my reading of the definition of 'Slow' is correct) and one works better for Controllers in its main capacity. But that is semantical as Trick Arrow already had it worst.

Conspiracy theory of the day:

Statesman supposedly really likes to play Controllers.

Ah, figure it out yourself.

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Allow me a brief, smug 'we told you so' here. Thanks for taking another look. Knowing how other Devs have handled similar issues in the past, it's really good to know that someone is actually willing to give the avid testers around here some credit.

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Should we go give the Controllers their rain back?

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It's only fair and just, isn't it? We couldn't keep what's rightfully theirs.

A man wise in the ways of the world once spoke these words:

To be the man, you've got to beat the man.

_Castle_ not only beat the man, he bloody one-shotted him.

Damn. No offence, ladies, but the only way I'd cross the ocean for this is if _Castle_ was there. But then I guess he works for Cryptic, not NCSoft.

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Freezing Rain: Well, the POWERS were right. The problem was the Defender version was calling the Controller Rain, while Controllers were calling Defenders. My bad...it's fixed in I7.

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Allow me a brief, smug 'we told you so' here. Thanks for taking another look. Knowing how other Devs have handled similar issues in the past, it's really good to know that someone is actually willing to give the avid testers around here some credit.

True and true. Also Rain of Fire and I'd assume the Freezing Rain knockoff Cold gets. No idea how Dark Servant works with Scourge. But outside of Blizzard those all do very small increments of damage. A single hit from Rain of Fire is not exactly comparable to a lightning bolt from LS.

I have a going theory that it involves summoned effects and Scourge. Storm has both Tornado and Lightning Storm. Elec Blast, which is also 'missing' has Voltaic Sentinel.

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I think Defender Primaries really need to be rethought in how they relate to the other "buffing" archtypes.

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Alas, that great city.

Keep in mind, Defenders are the most balanced AT, as you yourself pointed out. Meaning I see massive nerfs heading towards any other AT out there, if Defenders are the yardstick by which they're being measured.

Well. The way it was sold to us was 'increased Secondary Effects'. Also, I believe it was stated that Defender/Archery had a higher Accuracy Bonus than the Blaster version, but I might be wrong here. The KB on Energy Blast, I admittedly find hard to measure.


The Snow Storm part you're starting to confuse me. IIRC, 'Slow' covers both -SPD and -SPD, -Recharge (but not a lone -Recharge). I assumed that...

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Controllers AT modifier for Slows is higher than Defenders. I'll talk to geko to make certain this is by design.

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...applied to both attributes of the power. Clarification needed, I'd say. That said, I'd consider everything that has a minus in front of the short form a DeBuff (unless it's Mez Duration but even then it technically is a DeBuff).


Either way, you can't compare how at the very least T-Clap behaves for Controllers and Defenders respectively to how, say, Ball Lightning behaves for Defenders and Blasters respectively. One has two effects, with the Primary (and generally more important as mobs that are reduced to no End don't yield XP) effect being much more powerful for Blasters and the Secondary effect being more powerful for Defenders to balance out the unusual difference in effectiveness (above and beyond how other Secondaries behave). The other only does one thing and the Controller Secondary is superior to the Defender Primary.

Apples and oranges.

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The devs have always said

Primary>Secondary>Power Pool

And let's put it like tihs: Controller secondaries *should* be working at 80% of defender primaries instead of somewhere between 80 and 110%.

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They've said all things being equal Primary>Secondary>Power Pool. When the primary is a defender primary and the secondary is a controller secondary and the power is a controlling power, all things are *not* equal.

But as I said, the rosetta stone is electric blast drain. If my view is correct, defenders should have higher end drain for electric blast than electric blast blasters. If yours is correct, then electric blast blasters should have higher end drain than electric blast defenders. Which one do you believe is proper, and which one do you believe best reflects the devs intentions?

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Sorry, but you're ignoring one thing here.

Electric Blast has two effects, Primary and Secondary. Primary effect is damage, Secondary effect is End Drain. Secondaries operate usually at 80% efficiency of the comparable Primary. However, Defender Secondaries only have 66% of the efficiency of the Primary Effect because some people are afraid Defenders could -by combining three or four powers at once- eventually outdamage Blasters. To make up for this lack in damage, Defenders have increased Secondary effects.

You'll notice that COH Defenders don't get Fire Blast. Fire Blast's Secondary effect is more damage, and that would imbalance this equation again.

However, Defenders do have powers that are 1:1 weaker than the Controller Secondary versions. Point in case Snow Storm. As Castle just said, Slows are more powerful for Controllers, and the power does nothing else but Slow. That, and Slow is a DeBuff effect. Point in case Thunderclap. The power is only a Disorient. These powers have no Secondary Effects, and the Primary Effect is slanted towards Controllers.


The actual existence of such powers unfortunately breaks your argument, as it is based on improper abstract assumptions.

First things first: Thanks for looking at everything on the list. A few things, I can agree on, even the ones that didn't 'properly' resolve, and a few things I can't. Absolutely can't. Not to shoot the messenger, but I think something in the overall game setup is broken.

If I have a Defender Primary like, say, Storm or Froce Field that ends up offering less bang for the buck than a Controller Secondary, all in all, then I'm sorry, but it's just not right. Situationally, I can understand the approach. If, say, a Mez is just one aspect of a multi-layered power accessible to both Defenders and Controllers, then I can live with Controllers having a bit more control and Defenders having a bit more of everything else in that power. One example you gave, and I'll take your word on that, was Tornado. Controllers get a bit more Disorient, Defenders get a bit more damage. I still don't think it's appropriate for a Secondary to be superior to its parallel Primary in any form or fashion, but I'll accept it.

What I can't accept is a power in a Secondary being plain more effective than the same power in a Primary. Point in case Thunderclap. Longer duration and chance to Crit for Controllers? Point in case Snow Storm. More powerful for Controllers? Point in case, for the sake of completeness, Tornado. Due to the nature of Tornado, the Disorient is often more useful than the damage part (unless you're dealing with a single tough opponent), so I'll file this as more useful for Controllers, too. That's a third of a Primary Powerset that is actually more powerful when used as a Secondary Powerset.

I refuse to believe that this is, in any form or fashion by design.

If any three Energy Blasts did more damage for Defenders than they did for Blasters, it surely would not be by design. If any three Invulnerability powers were numerically superior for Scrappers over Tankers, it surely would not be by design.


Especially since -SPD and -REC are obviously DeBuffs (I'll cede the floor on KB/KU and Repel -- they're really neither meat nor fish, neither DeBuff nor Mez) and Statesman himself said that Defenders should be the best (De)Buffers in the game. Yet now I learn that Controllers actually are better than Defenders at this? Sure, it's only one particular type of DeBuff -- which just so happens to make up about a third of my Storm Defender's DeBuffing capability.


I'll keep this civil. I'm formally requesting that this be looked again and changed. Basically telling any and all Storm Defenders that they would have been better off as Storm Controllers does not work. And it's too late to pull Storm from the list of Defender Primaries. I'm not asking for an 'Instant Win' button, I'm merely asking for my favourite COH Primary to be properly balanced as such, and not act as a Secondary in all the aspects that are vital to my personal playstyle. For all I care Controllers can get triple the effect from O2 Boost instead.

Thank you.

1) Shadow Shard Badges

I know the place was probably designed before any actual work was done on the badges, but if there is one zone that needs the Striga/Croatoa treatment it's the otherwise sadly empty Shadow Shard. Some exploration badges at the very least, though its own Accomplishment string would be nice too and maybe even an Accolade for doing everything there is, as in Croatoa.

Any chance of the Shadow Shard getting more local badges?


2) Badge order

I agree with pretty much any of the players. It's just convoluted right now. I think most people would be happy to just get achievement badges sorted by type and then alphabetically within type categories. Type being the differentiation of 'Gain X' (Inf, Mez time, Debt etc.), 'Defeat X', PVP and Event badges. Maybe more, maybe less.

Any chance of at least something simple like this working out?

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Am I the only guy who's actually tried this out extensively to know how much of an effect it's making? You just run after them now...like any other knockback power. I guess only I can live with it. :|

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One of my main's a Stormie. I pretty much know how that works. I had Whirlwind on my Tank to keep enemies near him and lower their damage output a bit as they get tossed around. If I want a Tank that pushes enemies into a corner, I can go back to my Stormie who also has a whole lot of other neat tricks that make him generally preferable and superior in this position.

I personally think this is rather sad, as Whirlwind used to offer a different functionality than Repel (and whatever the EA version of it is called), Hurricane or Repulsion Bomb. The power's just gotten a little less unique. Meh.

[censored]?

I can still knock... Oh, wait, Whirlwind? Weird. Might really be tied into the ragdoll change.

And for the record, the word was that the change would only be rolled back two builds down the line from when the statement was made. So, it's probably still the 'reduced' version on live right now.

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"Guns? That's your Super Power? You've got guns?"

(Hope I didn't butcher the quote too much, going from memory. Imaginary stars for whomever can name the movie.)

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That would be Mystery Men.

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****** <--- And here's your stars, as promised.

Taskmaster. Legion Supreme's Wonder Woman analogue (Power Princess?) used a shield IIRC. The Fighting American did (though Marvel sued and he had to stop doing so) AND so did Youngblood's Diehard -- both partial Captain America clones perpetrated by Rob Liefeld of course. Battlestar (ugh). Several superheroes and -villains with 'Knight' themes have at times used shields.

The aforementioned 'The Shield' had an enemy called 'Vandal' or something who used a shield AND a handgun.

"Guns? That's your Super Power? You've got guns?"

(Hope I didn't butcher the quote too much, going from memory. Imaginary stars for whomever can name the movie.)

Good call on the Shadow and the Phantom. It has to be noted though that both characters have their roots in the Pulps of the 20s and 30s where guns were far more common tools of these stories' heroes than super powers, at least when compared to pure comic heroes. Then of course, there is the Punisher and the 80s-90s 'Grim and Gritty' characters, many of which carried guns in lieu of old-fashioned super powers.

Someone mentioned the Matrix and Equilibrium, but both of these movies only borrow stylistical concepts from (late 80s to?) 90s Hong Kong movies. Watch The Killer or Hard-Boiled, both starring Chow Yun Fat, and tell me that the gunplay exhibited by the leading characters doesn't border on the superheroic in appearance and style. Never mind that the 'Supherheroic Genre' has blurry borders in every direction.

Espionage stories from Mission: Impossible to the Connery and Moore James Bond movies definitely have superheroic qualities, as do crime stories in the vein of CSI or The Pretender. Science Fiction picks up superheroic imagery and themes, as do uncanny Western heroes and classical Fantasy and Myth are often the inspiration from which these stories spring. All of these genres have in common that often, their protagonists employ weapons. Not necessarily simple run of the mill swords, six-shooters or blasters but nevertheless relatively blatant and banal weapons. Using regular handguns in a contemporary setting fills the same niche as Siegfried using his sword Balmung to slay the dragon, John Wayne drawing faster than the gunslinger he's facing down or Luke Skywalker aiming whatever his ship's shooting down the Death Star's ventilation shaft.



PS.
Loved the Shadow movie myself. Though anybody who watches it with me has to suffer me saying 'The Shadow nose' over and over again because Baldwin looks admittedly goofy like that. That said, he's no Orson Welles (who did the voice for a time on the original Shadow radio show).

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You forgot the post States made afterwards that it was unlikely to be in the next update but sometime "Soon(tm)".

Willing to bet Geko got yelled at for that one .

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Oh yeah. Wasn't meaning to imply it'd be in I7, but rather that these were things that were currently in the design phase, meaning they'd be coming eventually. The post looks best if read in conjunction with the one I made before that one, where it says:

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A few powersets were mentioned as being *somewhere* in the design stage a while back in one of the 'Ask X' threads IIRC. Posi's? I forget. But no idea how far along those are. I'd suggest scouring the 'Ask X Answers' threads in the Developers' Corner.

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Blame me for being too lazy to edit that post and just made a new one.