Ebon_Angel

[ QUOTE ]
A Short Guide to Enhancement Strategies

[/ QUOTE ]

Appreciate the work, and useful to know, but possibly a little /too/ short :P I had a bit of trouble following excatly what your methods were...

[ QUOTE ]
There has been much debate on the boards as to the merits of replacing at x2 and x7 levels, versus combining at x3 and x8 levels. I examined both using statistical means, as well as a three other strategies.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to use the following format for my examples:

O = empty slot.
X = old enhancement, at shop bought level (eg. 30 or 45).
Y = new shop bought enhancement (eg. 35 or 50).
X+ = old enhancement upgraded once.
X++ = old enhancement upgraded twice.

So, replacing at x2/x7 levels means going from:
XXX
to:
YYY

Combining at x3/x8 means going from:
XXX
to:
Y+Y+Y+

[ QUOTE ]
These are Greening up – the best baseline you can get with purely shop bought and 3 enhancement slots – uses 9SO’s every 5 levels so whilst the best techncailly its only for the stupidly cash rich.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this means going from:
X++X++X++
to:
Y++Y++Y++

yes?

[ QUOTE ]
Hybrid – which is intermediate between the replace and combine – basically at the x2/7 level you combine two of your slotted enhancers, and buy one new one – then at x3/8 you combine two new ones with the other slots

[/ QUOTE ]

At x2/x7 you do:

XXX -> OX+X -> YX+X

Then at x3/x8 you do:

YX+X -> YY+Y+

[ QUOTE ]
4SO hybrid – well this strategy uses 4 slots instead of 3 (downside), but gives enhanced performance and reduced variability over the 5 level cycle. At x2/7 combine to give 2 spaces and replace, then at x3/8 combine.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you lose me :P

x2/x7:

XXX -> OOX++ -> YYX++

x3/x8:

YYX++ -> YYY+

That's still only 3 new SO's...where's the 4th get used?

--------

Historically, my strategy has always been the hybrid, but with the increase in respecs thanks to the vet rewards, I'll probably be doing a full sell and rebuy at every x2/x7 level from 22.

Hrm, good point. All the sounds would have to be classified ("technological", "animal", "mental", "energy", etc.) which would be a lot of work for the devs - and I don't think one big list of sounds would be very nice to scroll through - to say nothing of having to listen to them all trying to figure out which one you wanted...

Unless they're labelled according the powers they're currently used on - then when you hear a power that has the sound you want, it's easy to get the same one on your signature power.

We can but hope - I get the impression they do want to add lot more customisation to CoX - the character designer is the major selling point for the game for many people, and they've said they want to add power customisation (and have tried to).

Certainly the fact this is sticky is encouraging - it's been seen, and recognised as important to us, the players, at least. It's a start

[ QUOTE ]
so.. i had a couple new ideas last night that could allow for a bit of a nice twist..

1) SigPow "Tailors" - pay influence/infamy to change animations used, colors (if it ever gets implemented), or other cosmetics

2) SigPow Respecs - sell back an entire SigPow creation for the points spent, (possibly also a monetary fee for the service to counterbalance the usual need to buy new enhancements as in a normal respec) then be allowed to respend those points to make a wholly different SigPow.. just in case you don't like the way yours turned out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the original idea was that you could reconfigure them as and when you wanted - it is your signature after all, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. I can see the arguments for it being too overpowered like that. Maybe add it as an option at the trainers? And you can only access it when you level/gain a new point?

Any other thoughts on how often/easily/where you can change the signature powers?

[ QUOTE ]

first and foremost i see nothing wrong with the system you made. i just prefer to have one power with all effects right away as opposed to building it up. your system is based on points and that didn't appeal to me so i came up with an alternate approach.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt we'll ever get anything that "let's us have it all at once" - the original idea (which is not mine) was to start it from 32, which is when your character unlocks their last power in the primary pool, and new powers start coming slower. Gainign a point a level let's you increase your "powers" during the slow end game in a very cool way.

[ QUOTE ]
your idea was great i believe my idea was pretty good and the both might give a new angle to the magnificant idea. by the way i read the first post and like the first two pages and then decided 34 pages was too much and made my post

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, not actually my idea. But if we're going to get the devs to take us seriously I thought it best to demonstrate that the system could actually work, and produce what people wanted (within reason) without becoming too over-balanced.

Black_rose, thanks for your support, but it would probably help if you read the rest of this thread first - heck, even the first post would be a start.

We've hammered out a system that so far seems to be acceptable to most everyone, and isn't horribly broken. Rather than jump in with a completely unrelated system, it would be nice if you could explain what's wrong with the one we've currently developed first.

Very nice guide, and I have to admit my ill/storm is also one of my favourite characters. Dropping flash, freezing rain, PA and spectral terror on a spawn almost feels like cheating - the rest of my team roll's over them like they were paper.

One little note - you mentioned in PvP that Masterminds were one of the hardest opponents - I was pretty sure that "pets attack deceived masters" applied to them too, or have I been misinformed?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since so many seem to be asking for multiple powers, how does this sound:

No more than 20 points can be spent on one power.
There's no limit to how many points can be earned.
After 50, each point is awarded when you've gained enough XP to level.


To get two "maxed" powers would be the equivalent of getting to level 72. No easy feat, but would be an incentive to keep playing your level 50's - being able to wow n00bs under Atlas with a string of customised powers would be an acceptable substitue for the legend system, methinks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no.

No matter how long it might take to get enough points for 10 such powers, it will happen. Our coal could start doing 3 LRSFs a day, and Doors in WB or farm RV if not enough for the LRSF. That would be a maxed sig power per week, maybe two, could be less even.

And then I could make a 10 power attack chain and prolly solo AVs and Heroes on any char. I'd say keep it to one maxed power, tho maybe you could make more then one power, but you'll have to divide those points among those powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this was my issue with it initially, but people kept asking for it. I'm not sure they'd "be able to solo an AV" tho...

Let's assume the maximum 20 points:

[u]Range of Power[u]

1 point / 15 feet

We'll assume this is a tank for the moment, so 0 points here, as this will be a melee attack.

[u]2) Area of effect[u]

1 point / 3 feet

If it's for taking on AV's, it only needs to be single-target.

[u]3) Effect[u]

2 points / damage level, 1 point / per magnitude other effects

10 points of an extreme damage attack, of course, and another five for the maximum -regen.

[u]4) Duration of effects[u]

1 point / second

5 points used here on the -regen, for a 5-second duration.

------------

Extreme damage, single-target melee attack with a -regen for 5 seconds, using 20 end, with a 20-minute recharge and default accuracy.

To be able to chain them non-stop, you'd need 240, and they have probably approaching a 50/50 chance of landing (I can't remember what the base to hit would be against a same level'd (ie. purple) AV), so nearer 500 to keep it constant.

At only 5 seonds of -regen you're not going to see much difference unless you can constantly spam these and if you couldn't solo the AV before, you wouldn't be able to without keeping it constant. To say nothing of the endurance cost of 20 end every 5-seconds.

So I don't actually think it's a problem, and one reason why I kept the recharge so damn high to start with.

[ QUOTE ]
Ebon, mind lowering the recharge a bit? If not, Sig. Powers should be a lot stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if we allow players to continue gaining "points" after level 50, and have a minimum recharge then eventually you can get to a level you'd be happy with. I'm trying to balance these powers with what's already in the game - the "badge" powers are on a very very long recharge, for a lot less power than these - though admittedly the veteran rewards are much more powerful and have quick recharges.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm begining to think Sig Powers should have their recharge based on how they are designed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did consider that, but it is effectively what this system accomplishes - since every point spent limits what you can spend on reducing your recharge, and more expensive effects cost more, the greater the effect, the greater the recharge.

If you're asking for finer grain control, that I can understand - I've tried to keep this system simple, but it'd be easy enough to scale everything up by ten (10 points per level, costs x10, etc.) and then the different effects could be balanced a little better.

That would become hideously complicated, however, and I don't think the benefits and headache from balancing would be worth it.

-------------

Since so many seem to be asking for multiple powers, how does this sound:

No more than 20 points can be spent on one power.
There's no limit to how many points can be earned.
After 50, each point is awarded when you've gained enough XP to level.


To get two "maxed" powers would be the equivalent of getting to level 72. No easy feat, but would be an incentive to keep playing your level 50's - being able to wow n00bs under Atlas with a string of customised powers would be an acceptable substitue for the legend system, methinks?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't believe that this has been brought up within the thread, but this power would deal Lethal/Fire damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the signature powers - looks like everyone's happy with the figures I've given so far, which is reassuring :P

As to the types of damage - I must admit it hadn't occurred to me up until now. My initial suggestion is simply for each "damage type" be a seperate effect. Rather than selecting just a damage effect then trying to set sliders or something for how that damage is divied up, it's probably easier to select "fire damage" and "lethal damage" as seperate choices.

This doesn't affect the math at all - rather than "extreme" damage, you'd actually just select "medium" lethal damage (4 points) and "high" fire damage (6 points) for the same total point cost [u]and[u] damage result as one "extreme" attack.

Make sense?

(Oh, and grats on 50 with Running Bear - I teamed with you a couple of times on your way up. :P )

Serps - I like the idea of chaining animations - I don't think the animation system is coded that way unfortunately that let's such things happen...it's a pity, but those are the sacrifices we make for an online game (though really, an IK and animation blending system wouldn't be any more of an issue in an online game - and it would simplify a lot of the problems the animators have had before).

I think we'd probably get a choice of animation + choice of particle effect, from any currently in game. So maybe the MoG animation plus lightning rod particle effect could work or katana headsplitter + energy torrent. That's probably the best combination of simplicity and flexibility.

I really don't like the idea of having more than one signature power - you don't have more than one signature do you? To me, the whole point of a signature power is to be distinct and unique, and having more than one lessens that specialness.

I do like the idea of gaining more points after level 50 though - if we restrict a player to only one signature power then the player's signature move becomes a good measure of their "epicness" - and I'd go so far as to let them gain 10 or more points...that's a lot of playing.

If the game keeps tracks of the order the effects are added in (ie. in the same way it tracks the order of powers), then it should be possible to "exemplar" the signature moves (but not any graphical effects) down if a player exemps. This also has the very handy extra ability of auto-limiting powers in PvP - just set Recluse's Victory to auto-cap to 50 (which has no noticable effect on normal gameplay) and no matter how many points a player gains past 50, they won't be able to become unbalanced in PvP.

Agreed, you'll notice I've stayed well clear of proposing a sytem for selecting the animation :P

That really is the tricky bit...but I am thinking on it...

Am I being thick, or has City of Data's units changed to feet recently? I swear they used to be in yards - but now, it means my earlier ranges and area of effect sizes were spot on, since 3 feet = 1 yard. Ah well. Change all my values to "in feet" from now on:

Also, I think we could get away with halving the duration costs, to 1 point / 2 seconds, but each effect you want that duration on must be paid for seperately.

So, let's try my main character's signature power with these changes:

Ebon Angel - Vampiric

[u]1) Range[u]
1 point / 15 feet

This is a PB attack, so 0 points here.

[u]2) Area of Effect[u]
1 point / 3-feet radius

Similar radius to Dark Consumption/Soul Drain, so 3 points for a 9-foot radius.

[u]3) Effects[u]
2 points / damage level, 1 point / magniture everything else

Low damage, high-mag heal, which is 2 + 3 points, or 5 in total. I now have 10 points left.

[u]4) Duration[u]
1 point / 2 seconds

I want this to be a decent DoT, so I'm going to use all the remaining points to give both effects a 10-second duration.

--------------------

10-second Damage and Heal over time in a 9 foot PB radius every 20 minutes.

--------------------

Pretty soon I'll go back and redo some of the older signature powers with the new values, and make sure that everything is still coming out sane...

After expanding the range and area of effect sizes to better match what's in the game, I'm thinking that the cone cost is too high for the size it providers, also. Therefore, I suggest:

[u]Cone Effect[u]
1 point / 10 degrees

Let's use this on Serps power above, and see what we get.


[ QUOTE ]
Sig. Power Example for my Blaster (Which is also a power that should replace Voltaic Sentinel in Elec Blast)

Kendes - Electric Surge - You stand sideways towards the targetted enemy and lift your arm. A conical blast of electricity shoots in front of you dealing Superior damage to the target and moderate damage to any other enemies in the cone. The power will drain more end than other Elec blast powers (Twice as much as all of them but TB and SC) and all of it will be transferred back to you.

Range: 50 feet
End cost: 16
Recharge: This is a debated topic, but if it is part of an attack chain, 15-20s. If it's supposed to be longer, 60s is plenty.
Damage: 8-9 BI on target, 2.5-3.5 BI to others
Activation time: 2 seconds

[/ QUOTE ]


Hrm - not sure much of that we're gonna fit in using my suggested points system, but we'll see...

[u]1) Range[u]
1 point / 15 yards

Using 3 points gives a 45 yard range, which I'll assume is close enough.

[u]2) Area of Effect[u]
1 point / 10 degrees cone

You didn't specify the cone size, so I'm going to guess a 30 degree cone, which would be 3 points.

[u]3) Strength of Effects[u]
2 points / dmg level ; 1 point / other effect level

Superior damage would be 8 points under this scale, which would only leave 4 point left, which is not enough for everything else.
If we say 3 points each for the end drain and end recovery, then we have 6 points left.
We can use those 6 points to give us high damage on the attack.

------------

Final Result: 45-yard, 30 degree cone, with High damage, High end drain and High end returned, every 20-minutes.

------------

One thing that occurs to me is that I haven't included endurance cost at any point. I'm not sure how to deal with this. The points cost is pretty tight as it is, and adding even more expense in the form of endurance cost reductions would further limit what could be done.

I see three solutions:

1) Reduce the cost of the current setup, so have more points to spend on endurance reduction.
2) Give the powers a fixed cost, say 20 endurance.
3) Increase the endurance cost by one for every point spent, with the addition that points spent on damage count double (and yes, that means that each level of damage counts for 4 endurance). So the above power would cost 24 endurance.


I favour number 3 myself, but anybody else have any suggestions?

[ QUOTE ]
Okay.
/signed, in that case

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really much better, Serps :P There's tonnes of material in here to be actively discussing - while the dedication to the cause is appreciated, a little more thought would have a lot more effect...

The idea is to create a totally unique power that is your "signature" move, and yours alone - if it is restricted to your powersets and/or archetype that greatly limits how unique you can make the power.

I've just thought to check City of Data for the radiuses on current AoE attacks in game - standard AoEs seem to be 15 feet, and nukes 25 feet, both of which are infeasible with my current values. Also, sniper attacks have 150-yard range, which is equally difficult. To rectify this, I propose the following adjustments:

[u]1) Range of Power[u]
1 point / 15-yard range

This means a sniper range attack costs 10-points, and a standard "long" range attack is 5 or 6 points, which is much more in line with the ranges of current in game attacks.


[u]2) Area of Effect[u]
1 point / 3-yard radius

This gives a nuke-sized AoE for 8-points, and a "normal" AoE size for 5 points - again, much more in line with current in-game values.


With that in mind....

[ QUOTE ]
I'll chime in here.

For my Arbiter-built machine of smashing destruction -

Name: Hellstorm Pulsar

Range: I don't want it to be melee, but he is a brute, so...the range of impale, roughly. So 2 points? (gomen nasai, dont wanna go look up the oooold original post.)

Area of Effect: Single-Target.

Strength of Effects: High knockback, medium damage. 3 and four, again. Effect is done as DoT, from multiple blasts. Each blast has 100% knockback.

Duration of Effects: none. It's just got Knockback and Damage.

Recharge: All remaining points go into recharge.

Accuracy: Accuracy is the base accuracy.

Visuals: He moves into the Energy Bolt animation and rapid-fires six bolts of red, thick energy (like the arachnos maces and drones shoot) at his target. The target is juggled by the knockback of each burst, making it an effective and cool "GO AWAY" power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Impale is a 40-yard range, I think? So that'd be 3 points (1 per 15-yards = 45) for the range.
7 points on the effects.
Leaving 8 points for the recharge, giving it a 12 minute recharge time.

How does that sound?

[[Oh, and Serps, while the bumpage is appreciated, any chance you could add to the discussion while you do? Even if you really hate my system, improvements or better ideas would be nice...]]

Here boy! Come here boy! Good topic, aren't you a good topic then? Yes you are...

*cough*

[ QUOTE ]

And the list is good...But my problem with it is that we don't really know how the points could be spent in the range/radius area. I doubt that if the idea is implemented, it would actually work that way. I'd think that they would either give us a choice for PBAoE or cone or single target, and give us a cost for those accordingly.


[/ QUOTE ]

I did actually have it set up that way when I was creating the post, but then you still have to specify the range or size in some fashion, so I figured if we've got to have a range/size selction, just reuse that for selecting whether the power is melee, single-target, both or neither. Makes the interface much simpler, which must be a good thing, right?

Let's run another of my characters' signature powers through the mill and see how it comes out:

Harlequinne's Chaos

[u]1) Range[u]
Let's make it a point blank power, and spend no points here.

[u]2) Area of Effect[u]
It'd be nice if this was large, so 8 points go here, and 10 points left.

[u]3) Strength of Effects[u]
I want a high-mag confuse and medium damage, which is 3 and 4 (using the double-cost-for-damage suggestion) points, 7 in total and leaving 3 points left.

[u]4) Duration of effects[u]
Not many points left, so we'd better use them all up here, for 3 seconds of confusion, which isn't really very long.

[u]5) Recharge[u]
No points left, so default 20-minute recharge.

[u]6) Accuracy[u]
Ditto, so default accuracy too.

--------------------

16-yard diameter, PBAoE with mag-3 confuse for 3 seconds and medium damage, every 20-minutes.

That's...pretty wimpy really. If I drop the damage, that gives me 7 seconds of confusion, which is somewhat more useful, but still quite weak - a showy signature move, but far from unbalancing. I'd rather err on the side of underpowered for these, since they're an extra for customising your hero or villain, and not a way to be ub3r.

Okay, I'm going to make a stab at defining what the numbers and costs should be.

Why?

a) Because it gives us a better idea of whether the idea is feasible and balancable.
b) It shows the devs that the idea is workable too.
c) *cough*bump*cough* :P

I'm going to use the signature power for my main villain, Abeyance, as my main example. It's a large radius PBAoE, with high knockback, slight stun and low damage.

[u]1) Range of power[u]

1 point per 10 yards of range.

My power is point-blank, so this costs me no points.

[u]2) Area of Effect[u]

1 point per yard of radius for AoE

or

1 point per 5 degrees of cone area.

I want a large area of effect on this power, so I'm going to use 8 points, for a sphere of diameter 16 yards.

[u]3) Strength of effects[u]

Low magnitude = 1
Medium = 2
High = 3
Very high = 4
Extreme = 5

So high knockback, low stun and low damage would be another 5 points, leaving me with 5.


[u]4) Duration of effects[u]

1 point per second.

The only thing that needs a duration is the stun, and I'm happy with only a 3 second stun - the knockback is the point, the stun is just icing.

[u]5) Recharge[u]

20 minutes default.
-1 minute per point.

I'm happy with a twenty minute recharge, so I'm not going to spend any points here.

[u]6) Accuracy[u]

+5% per point spent.

I'm going to use my last two points to add 10% accuracy to the power.


------------------

So what does this sytem give us? My 18 points have bought:

16 yard diameter PBAoE low damaging power with high knockback and low-mag 3 second stun on a 20 minute timer.


That seems pretty reasonable, and hardly game-breaking. Now let's try to break the system. We all know that damage is considered king, so what happens if we concentrate on making as damaging a power as possible?

[u]1) Range of power[u]

Well, a bit of range is nice, but not essential - let's use 1 point for a ten yard range.

[u]2) Area of Effect[u]

We want to get lots of people, so let's use 6 points for a 30 degree cone arc.

[u]3) Strength of effects[u]

We're obviously using the full 5 points for an extreme damage attack, and no other effects.

[u]4) Duration of effects[u]

We don't want damage over time, no duration required here.

[u]5) Recharge[u]

Again, recharge isn't as important, we'll leave this at the default 20 minutes.

[u]6) Accuracy[u]

We still have 6 points left, and that will give us a 30%, or near SO, accuracy boost.

------------------

So in our possibly degenerate case, we've produced:

A 10-yard, 30 degree cone extreme damage attack with the accuracy of an SO built-in every 20 minutes.

That seems, even with the long recharge, a little excessive - being able to deal the same damage as an unenhanced total focus on almost everyone within ten yards in front of you would probably be unbalancing.

To correct this, I propose that the costs for damage be doubled:

low damage = 2 points
medium damage = 4 points
high damage = 6 points
very high damage = 8 points
extreme damage = 10 points

So what does this do to our example? Well, if assume we want to keep the damage, then we have to lose 5 points from either the accuracy or the cone (or some combination of both).

While still powerful, it would be much more limited, and the 20 minute timer suitably balancing, I think.

--------------------

Any comments or suggestions?

As someone stated - signature powers are to look cool and be different, not necessarily "useful".

So not being affected by buffs of any kind is fine - however, this definately implies they shouldn't be affected by debuffs either. Not only for balance, but also...because they're your signature, the ultimate expression of your power.

I'd go so far as to say they should be usuable through status effects too.

Huh? Let me explain...

How many times have we seen the hero/villain apparently defeated - trapped, captured, bound, whatever...

"If I can just..reach..my belt..." *drops vial on floor, large bang ensures* Smoke clears and the fight begins again.

Yeah, our tier 9's are meant to be kind of like that, but also...not really. This is also why I think they should have quite a long recharge time - I like the idea of them being saved for "special" occasions...

I don't know - I don't think I like the idea of being able to spam my signiture move - every 15 minutes isn't really that long when you get rolling through some missions. I can be persuaded otherwise though...

I definately agree that it shouldn't be affected by outside buffs, though - acc/dmg/rec/end all set by the points you put into the power.

It's not a bad idea, just that it's a lot harder to balance debuffs when there are powers in the game for dealing with most debuffs in some form or another - each person can choose the debuff that effects them least and gain free boosts.


Anyone else think games would be so much cooler if people didn't constantly min/max them? :P

[ QUOTE ]
No, that would wreck some signature moves.

My Stalker, "The Lord of Rags" has a planned sig called "Curse of Rags." It's not supposed to do any damage, it just debuffs the holy [censored] out of the target. (-acc -dam -def -res -regenhp -regenend)

Remember, these things are being designed with INSANE recharge timers. Anywhere from accolade recharge length to an hourly usage only. Negatives can be allowed. Remember that people won't be spitting them out every ten seconds, rather ever hour or so. Which means that over multiple fights, or even multiple enemies, the sig is practically worthless, especially ones designed to target one enemy. (Like mine)

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, if you check the context of my comment, I'm not talking about debuffing an enemy - we're discussing the wisdom of allowing negatives appplied to the player in return for greater power or choices, since some powersets or archetypes can effectively ignore many of the "downs", and thus get extra power for free.

Which is why I suggested limiting possible negatives based on AT or powersets. But I can see that getting icky, and thus it may be simpler to just not allow negatives.

[ QUOTE ]
The addition of drawbacks to signature powers (I.E. Self Stun, Self -Recovery, Damage self, etc) should add points for use in power creation. However, to prevent people from creating a power that is just weaknesses to give themselves more points, the ratio of drawbacks to power effects should be 1:1 for powers with only one effect, 1:2 for powers with two, and 1:3 to powers with three or more effects.

Kadmon's Fury of Mu, for example, has one Damage effect (Energy) and one -Recovery, fitting into my 1:1 ratio of Positive to Negative effects.

An example of a power currently existing with a 1:2 ratio is Energy Transfer, with one Damage (Energy, Smashing), a Disorient, and a Self -HP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I quite follow, unless you're assuming players are allowed to have more than one signature move? If there is only one signature move, then why would someone create a move with all drawbacks, since they have no other way of using the extra points?

I'm in two minds. From one side I like the idea of being able to up the power somewhat by taking on negatives, and indeed I included negatives in one of my signature powers earlier, but balance would be a lot harder. What's a high-mag stun to a tanker or scrapper? Or -HP to a regen? Maybe the list of negatives could be pruned based on powerset or AT.