Dwimble

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I've got an idea. Rather than a two-hour long invasion, how about a REAL invasion, you know? Like, one that lasts for a full WEEK so EVERYONE can get some fun out of it.

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I've got an idea too... how bout you check your facts before complaining. For one thing, it went on all day long and is still going on. Further, there is very compelling evidence and clear rumors from the powers that be that this is the first wave of scouts with more of the true "invasion" yet to come. Have some patience.

Dwimble

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Yea the ones I saw were definitely scouting. They were looking at Outcasts, group by group, then moving on. Very cool stuff.

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Yes, very cool. In King's Row I saw them methodically going over to the tenaments and then going up the walls looking in all the windows. Very creepy. Peeping Tom aliens.


Dwimble

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thanks for the new sig.

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LOL, I think MY new sig may have to be something like

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----
Gaffer - "...we are experimenting with trying to get more changes out in between the "big *** updates""

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ROFL! Gaffer, you are TOO cool for school and the BOMB.COM.

Dwimble

Stateman,

I may be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're talking about making the game basically an issue of -1, 0, +1 lvls (the way missions are now). It seems that you are saying that mobs should get much harder quickly so that a group of 8 should possibly have a difficult time with even one +4 mob. The problem is that once again that ignores the level spread in groups the way the first iteration of the "purple patch" did (and the second iteration still did to a lesser degree).

In a level-compressed environment, if a group has a level spread of say 5 levels, then the low-levels will be useless or the high levels will be bored--there is seldom an acceptable medium. If you go by colors, then there is an 8 level spread between gray and purple mobs. Personally, I think that would be a sufficient spread if done correctly, but currently (for some builds at least) everything below yellow might as well be considered gray because you have little more difficulty with white than you do with grays. If taking on several whites was difficult (the way it is for say a controller at lower levels) then the spread might work okay. But, there is such a great disparity between some blasters (for example) and some controllers or defenders that to some of them yellows are trivial while to others even blues can occasionally be a challenge. Frankly, I don't envy you having to fix the problem.

The only way I see this working is if you move the bar some but don't ignore the lower colors (gray, green, blue, white). However, that still doesn't account for the AT disparity, so that must be fixed too. I just don't think there should be such a broad difference between what differing ATs can handle. I'm an alt junkie and find that with some blasters I can reliably take down oranges and some reds by myself (at even lower and mid-levels), but with most "support class" builds at those levels it's often tough to face groups with even one or two yellows in it. That's a 2 to 3 level difference in what different classes can face (not to mention the different speeds at which they do it). I think that's too wide. I don't think there should EVER be above a two level disparity, and even two should be only when a few of the strongest builds are compared to a few of the weakest. There just shouldn't be that great a difference between classes.

If what ATs could handle was a little closer together, then people would have a closer perception of the game's difficulty and things might improve. If a white or yellow is challenging to some builds then at best some other builds should find a yellow to orange of an equal challenge.

I just don't think it is as simple as making mobs harder, because that would make them a challenge for some but IMPOSSIBLE for others unless the classes are moved closer together.

Thanks for your dedication, but again, I don't envy you the job of having to fix it.

Dwimble

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Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.

The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.

The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.

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Ah, but my question is, is the game TRULY too easy for the majority of players post 30? Or, is it just too easy for the very vocal 1% min/maxers that post on these forums? Will significantly increasing the difficulty end up making it too hard for most people?

This is not a troll or flame; I'm really curious about that. I don't have any high-level characters because I am an alt-junkie and doomed to forever have characters in the lower half of the game. But, when the day comes that I have 20 characters simultaneously reaching 35th level, I'd hate to find that the high end game had been taken over by all the players that can p0wnzers j00!

Dwimble

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And what I learned while writing this post: I have virtually no chance of spelling "statements" correctly on the first try when the statements I am writing about came from Statesman. No doubt there's a tongue twister in all this, but I'm already humbled by my little episode of cognitive overlap, so hopefully somebody else can find it.

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If Statesman states a statement, how would a statesman state Statesman's statements.

Dwimble

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the issue with grouping xp as i see isn't so much that it's lower/less efficent than a soloist's gain... but it's APPARENT gain is less!

it's called morale, if a player thinks he's gaining, he'll keep doing it, even if he's not. ever see lowbies hunting hydras? they THINK they're gaining, unless they're really smart, they're not doing as well as they think. on the flip side, if a player is not seeing a distinct gain like he would soloing, then he'll quit, thinking any gain from grouping is marginal and go back to soloing.

if it were up to me, i'd have group xp increased several times what it is now, but that's me.

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Maybe it would help if the XP message you get had a breakdown when grouped. When you're solo it would just say "You defeated Big Ugly Villain and gained 20 XP" but when in a group it would say "Master Blaster defeated Big Ugly Villain and you gained 10 XP and 7.5 group bonus XP."

I think something like that would help perceptions a lot, and perhaps increase group morale.

Dwimble

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Couple that with the enormous penalty for grouping beyond the 4rth person and you just don't see large teams anymore.

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Penalty for more than 4 people? Certainly not XP wise; players get an XP bonus for having larger and larger groups. What are you referring to?

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Perhaps he's a powergamer refering to the infamous "Purple Patch". It seems that certain larger groups don't think they're getting worthwhile XPs unless they're able to defeat +10 level mobs. I don't know, that's just a guess.

Dwimble

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When I'm playing my tank, you're right, group xp is better, and missions are better.

All that goes out the window when i play my blaster and can handle 12 mobs with now outside help. It's called Inferno. With hasten it is up often enough to be a regualr attack. With build up and AIM I can do +4 mobs. I'm soloing spawns meant for full teams, solo. Yes there is greater risk because I'm solo and a blaster which means i am easily killed. But I progress much faster solo and not doing missions.

In city of heroes there are 2 classes: Blasters, and everyone else.

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Stateman has mentioned a few time that he's aware of the AoE "problem". Don't look now, but I think one of the devs will be shopping for a fix very soon at Toys R Us (probably in the "plush toys" section).

Of course, all I can say about that is "Huzzah!" (and I actually LIKE blasters).

Dwimble

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What exactly do you fight "on the way" when you have a contact in IP at level 28 that sends you to Kings Row or Skyway?

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LOL, exactly! That's why contacts should rarely send heroes to lower-level zones. Occasionally, I can understand, for nostalgia, promoting some "mixing" of higher and lower level players, etc. But, it should really be the exception. Once I passed 15th level I would have been happy never to see Perez Park again. But just when I got out, "they keep pulling me back in." (my apologies to Al Pacino )

Dwimble

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The most base level of balance is that 3 minions=1 hero.

So here's a matchup of level 20 heroes and level 20 minions.

1 hero - 3 minions. Hero receives 120 xp.

4 heroes - 12 minions. Each hero receives 192 xp.

8 heroes - 24 minions. Each hero receives 210 xp.


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So, that means that a team of 4 gets a 60% XP bonus and a team of 8 gets a 75% XP bonus? If so, that's huge! Excellent.

Thanks for the info, Stateman. But (there's always a big 'but' isn't there?) could you simply give us the XP bonus percentage breakdown, assuming there is one. If the percentage isn't constant (e.g. +50% for 3, +60% for 4, etc.) but varies according to level of team and/or mobs, I can accept that. I'd just like to know what the percentages are if it can be easily stated.

Thanks again.

Dwimble