Dwimble

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...So you're wrong when it comes to mobs, right when it comes to contacts.

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Actually, I never said anything about mobs, or even contacts for that matter. I just listed one thing that I happened to notice last night when I had to visit one particular NPC in the game over and over again. I also said I didn't think to test targeting, but I know that targeting is certainly farther than visual range because hitting tab shows that all the time. Another thing I did notice however...there are a bunch of Tsoo all over that dock where Alexander stands. I couldn't see them any further out than I could see him. So, those mobs definitely couldn't be seen further out than 300'. However, there are probably many factors that govern the visual range of things. Graphics settings, graphics cards, the particular zone you are in, whether you are flying or at ground level, and so on might all have an affect on visual range. For all I know the person coming up behind me, playing on a super computer with a top of the line graphics card might have been able to see Alexander from 1000' away.

It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I was just stating what I noticed last night.

Dwimble

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Wrong. I have numerous times confirmed distance at 100 yds I couldn't see a contact or a mob in visual range.

I can tab then move further such as 600 ft and still keep the tab on the mob but it wouldn't register on the combat log till i had moved much closer and this is on live.

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I ran around last night kind of absentmindedly checking the distance of things because this whole range thing got me curious. I had that Alexander Something-or-other Warrior mission that gets you the Redeemer badge. So, I kept having to go back to Alexander over and over at the end of the long dock in Talos. I could get approximately 270 feet back from him (90 yrds) before he disappeared. So, for me at least, visual range was just under 300'. I didn't think to test targeting range.

Dwimble

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Ah Dwimble why are you using the tram rather then a hospital or tram way point?

You can barely tab target something 300 feet away...

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Just to clarify...I just used the tram to illustrate the distance because it is a common thing that everyone uses and is familiar with. Just saying "300 feet" is rather arbitrary. It can be hard to conceptualize exactly how far that is without some common reference point. My post was in response to a 300 feet being "very far" and "halfway across the zone" comment. I wasn't trying to make any kind of commentary about whether that distance is too far or not far enough.

My point was merely that 300' isn't really very far, not that it is an unfair distance for the XP range restrictions. A Super Speeder can travel 300' in 2.4 seconds. A Teleporter travels that far in one jump.

Dwimble

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Bottom line: if you're not giving someone XP, don't count them in the XP division calculation. The rest of this system sounds perfectly reasonable.

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Your point is completely true, but it presents the devs with an interesting conundrum that I mentioned earlier in this thread. If they changed it so that XPs were calculated based on only the number of people in range, so that you get the "right" amount of XPs that you deserve, then it would be instantly exploited by powerlevelers. Using the common SK/Mentor (Bridging) method of powerleveling, the sidekicked player would stay in range of the guy fighting and the mentor (bridge) would stay in range of the sidekick but not the mobs being fought. That would give the SK even more XPs than if this change had never been implemented. The XPs would be divided by two people--the person fighting and the SK--instead of divided by all three of them. So, that would be a more efficient form of powerleveling than existed before the change. The devs could give you more XPs when the team is divided, and in the process introduce a better form of powerleveling, or they could leave it as is. Obviously they opted for the choice that doesn't actually improve powerleveling.

Personally, I find the irony of the whole thing very amusing.

Dwimble

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.... oh my god.

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Amazing, isn't it?

Okay, everyone...here it is again. Maybe if I phrase it a little differently and all in one post, that will help some of the people who still aren't getting it.

__________________________________
CHANGES TO THE XP RANGE SYSTEM:

1. Missions are now completely exempt from all of these rules. None of them apply to missions, including Outdoor Missions (i.e. "Board Train" missions).

2. When in normal zones (i.e. City and Hazard Zones) you must have done damage (actual hit points damage) to the mob OR be within 300 feet of the it when it is defeated in order to get any XPs for it.

3. If you are killed (i.e. "defeated"), and have been dead for more than one minute, you will not get any XPs for the mob, regardless of your distance from it, UNLESS you did damage to it before you were defeated.

4. All of the previous rules still apply to "Defeat X" missions, but only for the purpose of XP distribution. Even if you get no XPs from a defeated mob, you will still get credit toward the mission as long as at least ONE PERSON on your team was within 200 feet of it when it was defeated.

5. Everything in #4 also applies to Badges awarded for defeating X number of villains.
_________________________________

Dwimble

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....as long as you don't run halfway across the zone before the fight's over you still get credit. Seriously. 300ft is a considerable distance, and if you're going to be applying any support things you're going to be within that distance.

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Pitho, perhaps you are thinking of 300 yards, although even that much isn't very far. 300 feet in City of Heroes isn't very far at all, especially when you are outside in a City or Hazard Zone. To give you an idea of the distance, click on a Tram station on your map so that the distance gauge appears on your screen. Now, stand at the bottom of the ramp at the Tram Station. The distance from there to the gate that you click on to board the train is exactly 66 yards, which is 200 feet--the original distance they were going to use. Now, just back up a little until the distance gauge shows 100 yards. THAT's 300 feet.

Dwimble

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And the problem is? If you're not working together on the same fights, why should you get xp for them? I don't know, maybe I'm weird in that I don't think we should have to earn the xp we get...

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Of course as a counterpoint to that, your XPs will still be reduced as if those people DID help you with that fight, even though you fought it alone. I've never minded my teammates getting a share of my XPs in those situations, and I in turn get a share of theirs. However, if they changed it so that XPs were calculated based on only the number of people in range, so that you get the "right" amount of XPs, then it would be instantly exploited by powerlevelers. The sidekicked powerlevelee would stay in range of the guy fighting and the mentor would stay in range of the sidekick but not the mobs being fought. That would give the SK even more XPs than if this change had never been implemented. So, that's the conundrum the devs face. Give you the XPs you deserve or give the PLers an even better PLing system. Obviously they chose the former.

Ultimately this was designed to do one thing, stop people from being able to level their characters by standing at the train or zoneline while someone else fights elsewhere in the zone. It will do that nicely. Unfortunately, those who like to divide up and street sweep got caught in the crossfire. They aren't engaging in the type of behavior that the devs are trying to hinder, but there is no easy way to differentiate between those who are legitimately fighting in separate locations and those who are powerleveling someone. Maybe eventually they will improve it a bit more to detect that distinction and allow those people to go back to playing the way they enjoy.

Dwimble

I have to say, with your track record so far, I figured the first iteration of this change wouldn't go live. I'm glad to see I was right. At first I thought it was a great idea and only needed some range and timer adjustments, but the more I considered it and applied it to "real worlds" situations, the more I knew it was going to cause huge problems in missions. You guys constantly prove yourselves to be hands down better than the other MMORPG teams out there.

At least now it looks like the only people that will "suffer" from this are those who, for one reason or another, separate in City and Hazard Zones. From my experience teams frequently separate to clear off the "Defeat X" missions, so it's a shame to see that if you do that now you stand to potentially lose some significant XPs.

Further, I know that some people like to street sweep broken up into "sub-teams". That won't affect me because I don't like to do that, but I still hate to see those people inconvenienced and forced to change their playstyle all in the name of hindering AFK powerlevelers hanging out at the tram or ferry. I wish there could have been a little more elegant solution to it. Maybe with some further tweaking in I4 and future issues, you can clean it up a bit more to accommodate those people.

Dwimble

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From talking with other SS tanks both on the boards and in game, you'd be in the minority, Icen.

Most SS tankers I know either barely use Rage anymore, or are either going to respec out of Rage or have already done so.

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I have a 40th level Fire/SS tank and use Rage permanently with two To Hit buffs in it for accuracy and have all my attacks six-slotted with ++Damage SOs. That puts all of my attacks at the 400% cap at all times except for the 10 second feel-like-an-idiot-staring-at-your-feet-mashing-buttons downtime. That's 369% damage overall.

I love the benefits but hate the no taunt downtime. I agree that Rage needs penalties. I think the -Def and -25% endurance at the end is just about enough though. There have been quite a few time when my toggles have dropped from the endurance loss, epecially if Rage and Hasten happen to end around the same time. That's very dangerous.

However, in an instant I would accept those penalties and even welcome the addition of a massive damage penalty for ten seconds if it replaced the annoying force-me-into-Phase-Shift-without-the-benefits mode. It's not fun and I hate it. Heck, I'd even accept the addition of some kind of fourth penalty to get rid of it.

Dwimble

I'm using plain old ordinary math.

The cap is 400%, or +300%. If you say, "I can do 200% damage, that means double damage, or +100% to your damage. If you say the cap is 400% that means you can add 300% to your damage.

People often confuse that because you can express it two ways. You can either say that the cap is +300% damage, or you can say the cap is 400% damage. Both are true.

Saying the cap is 300%, however, is not entirely accurate because it is incomplete information. The cap is actually plus 300% (i.e. 400%).

Edited to add: Oh, and just to clarify, you can get to the cap with Rage if you 6-slot +2 SO damages in your attacks. Whites won't do it, that would only get you to 380% damage. Six white SOs adds 200%. Six +2 SOs adds 220% (actually it's 219.78%) so adding Rage's 80% puts you at the +300% cap, or 400% damage.

Dwimble

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So. how much Endurance is used to keep Build Up at a +50% Damage Over Time effect compared to the Endurance cost of Rage?

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I did a quick calculation and it looks like at its best potential you could use Build Up six times during Rage's 130 seconds. That's assuming perma-Hasten and six SO Recharges in Build Up. Most sources say Build Up costs 7.5 to use, so that's 45 endurance over time. Rage costs 6 up front and 25 at the backend, which is 31 total. So...

Cost to use perma-Rage: 31
Cost to use "perma" Build Up: 45

Therefore, over time Build Up costs 45% more endurance than Rage. 45% makes it sound like a lot, but in practical terms 14 points spread out over a two minute period really is a very small amount. Plus, because the bulk of Rage's cost comes all at once at the end, and is to some degree involuntary, it has a significant potential to drop your endurance to zero if you aren't very careful and attentive.

So, in the end, Rage costs less over time than Build Up but has a cost that is more difficult to manage. It provides 15-50% more to base damage depending upon how it and your attacks are slotted, but has a -Def and "frozen" downtime penalty. It subjective, but I think they are fairly balanced powers when you weigh the penalties versus the benefits. Some people prefer one while some prefer the other. That doesn't address the Super Strength versus the other sets comparison, but that's another issue entirely, which seems to never end.

I prefer Rage, but every time the crash hits me and I can't Taunt and I start mashing buttons waiting for it to end I find myself briefly wishing I had Build Up. If they let me Taunt but increased some other penalty to compensate then it would be no contest...I'd prefer Rage hands down.

Dwimble

I actually think Rage is great, except for the always annoying, stupid, pain in the backside, stand-there-like-an-idiot Rage crash when you can't Taunt. It REALLY annoys, but I deal with it because the benefits make it worth using, but just barely.

Rage keeps all of my attacks at the 400% cap for 120 seconds and then I do nothing for 10 seconds. Overall that's 369% damage on everything. Plus, I have two To Hit buffs in it, which gives me a +41.65% accuracy (assuming Rage's buff to Acc is 25%). That's better than an SO in every attack with no Rage. Plus, if I wanted to I could put a third in it to get the buff up to +50% Acc.

To me that makes the horrifically annoying crash worth dealing with. However, I'd take just about any penalty mentioned in these threads, or even an increase in Rage's other two penalties if I could just Taunt throughout the crash. The current state keeps me just under the love/hate borderline of that power.

Dwimble

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5 Slotting for damage with single rage is 400% cap. Test:Hit someting with rage with 6 slotted dmg then remove one slot hit something again and you'll find that there is no change in damage.

so how can 6 slotting it for damage improve your build?

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You need to recheck your numbers because that's not the case. The best five damage SOs can improve your damage is 191.5% if they are all +3 green SOs. Then, adding Rage's 80% brings it to +271.5%. That's 371.5% total damage.

A white SO is 33.3% improvement to base. A +3 green SO is +38.3%. So, 5 X 38.3% = 191.5%. That's the best improvement five SOs can get you. Rage gives an 80% boost, so in order to reach the cap without stacking it you have to get your damage up to at least +220%. Even if Rage was +100% like Build Up it still wouldn't get you to the cap with five SOs.

So, there is no way 5 SOs plus unstacked Rage could get you to the tanker's 400% cap unless you had a defender buffing you or you sneaked in a couple of Hamidon enhancements.

Dwimble

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actually if you stand in a mob phase shifted they will attack....

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Yes, if you are low-enough level that they will agro on you. But that's only because they can see you; it has nothing whatsoever to do with Invincibility or any other power. If a controller walks up to them with PS on then they will attack him too. Phase Shift doesn't make you invisible, it just gives you some stealth, so of course they will try to attack you. But that doesn't have anything to do with powers working through PS or the Rage crash, because they don't. Invincibility doesn't taunt thru Phase Shift and it doesn't taunt thru the Rage crash either.

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Actually you're incorrect about one thing, the aggroing part of Invincibility doesn't do squat during those 10 seconds.

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doesn't do squat or doesn't do as much?

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It doesn't do anything. The Rage crash is like Phase Shift without the benefit. You can't affect enemies in any way with any of your powers (whether active or passive), but they can still affect you.

Warning! Long post with mind-numbing numbers ahead...

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Rage is better than what any of you suspect and I do believe it is the defining power of SS. A properly slotted rage allows for great versatility in the SS and Invuln Line. Currently my rage is slotted 3 Recharge 3 To Hit Buff...

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Actually, your system of stacked Rage isn't as good as you think. It ends up being virtually identical to normal perma-Rage with some To Hit buffs in it and your attacks 6-slotted for damage. Don't get me wrong, I think Rage is an excellent damage boost, but your method of slotting just isn't any better than normal non-stacked Rage. With the three Recharges and three To Hit Buffs that you have slotted (assuming perma-hasten), Rage isn't permanently stacked. After the first 90 seconds of single Rage when you first activate it, out of every 90 seconds Rage will be stacked for 30, single for 50, and down with zero damage for 10.

Further, because you have less damage slots in your attacks you are only at the 400% damage cap 33.3% of the time (assuming +2 green SOs). 55% of the time, when Rage isn't stacked, you are doing about 324% damage (again, assuming +2 greens). The other 11% of the time you are doing ZERO damage.

Now, what does that mean you're doing overall? With perma-Hasten and 3 Recharge and 3 To Hit Buffs in Rage, you will be doing ~313% damage overall. That's 87% below the cap.

Now, that didn't take into account you slotting a recharge in your attacks so that you can attack faster. So, let's factor that in. Again, assuming perma-Hasten, adding a single Recharge enhancement in all of your attacks means you have improved their recharge by 19.4% (because of diminishing returns on Recharge enhancements since you already have Hasten reducing it) which means you will increase the effectiveness of your powers by 19.4% of the total. That is much better than improving the base like adding Damage SOs does. So, an increase of 19.4% of your 313% overall damage comes out to 373% overall damage.

So, with the 3/3 method of slotting, your overall damage is 373% after attacking 19.4% more times with an improved endurance efficiency of roughly 25% per attack.

Now, what if you didn't stack Rage, used only one Recharge and 1-3 To Hit buffs so that you could have it perma and wouldn't have to slot Accuracy, and 6-slotted all of your attacks for Damage? Assuming +2 green SOs, 6-slotted attacks plus Rage would put you at the 400% damage cap for 120 seconds and then 10 seconds of zero damage. That's an overall damage of 369%.

Therefore, the "normal" method of perma-Rage plus 6-slotted damage has an overall damage of 369% with no increased endurance efficiency but with 17% less attacks needed for almost the same damage as the previous method.

So, the net result is your method of stacking Rage versus simple perma Rage is virtually identical in overall damage. The only improvement in your method is endurance efficiency. But, remember, both methods are doing virtually the same damage but your method requires more attacks to do it. Yes, your attacks are more endurance efficient but you have to use more of them to do the same damage because of your lower number of damage enhancements.

I prefer the much simpler method of perma-Rage. Virtually the same damage for less attacks, at a higher endurance cost, but you only have to deal with the annoying Rage crash once every 120 seconds instead of every 90 seconds.

I think Rage is great apart from not being able to Taunt during the downtime, but stacking Rage isn't any better than just "normally" using it all the time. It could, however, be more frustrating because of having to deal with more frequent Rage crashes.

Dwimble

Thanks for the added info. I've never tried the lower damage attack thing to notice a difference. I'll have to play around with it a bit. Thanks.

Also, I forgot to mention that about standing behind a fence/crate and jumping up. I do it all the time, I can't imagine why that slipped my mind. I'll have to add that in if I ever expand or revise it.

Thanks again.

Dwimble

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Yeah I have to agree. I know there are some busy bodies that think rage was actually built into SS by design to compensate for a pretty mediocre set of attacks, and to bring it somewhere close to, but still behind several other tanker melees. Hogwash. I think that since it adds 80% to our damage-they only way to compensate this is to subtract 80% from the exp of everthing we kill when we use it.. ANy maybe 1 bar of debt acrrued upon activation. Something like that seems fair....

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and once again

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Not a blast Goldie, just a minor correction

The numbers I've seen most quoted for the accuracy buff for the two skills:

Build Up: 50%
Rage: 40%


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One minor correction to your minor correction...the number I've seen most quoted for Rage's Acc boost is 25%.

Who knows where it really is, since Accuracy is a bit difficult to test. Maybe I'll have to mess around with that Hero stats thingamajig and see if I can nail it down.

On a purely subjective note, I don't think it is 40% because that would be bettter than having an SO Accuracy in an attack, and it just doesn't seem that good. I recently replaced my Acc in all my attacks and went to using Rage all the time. Before putting any To Hit Buffs in it, I tried playing with just the default bonus and it definitely seemed like I was missing significantly more than when attacking with Acc SOs and no Rage. If it was 40% then I should actually have been hitting more. After putting one To Hit Buff in it, it seemed pretty much back to normal, which is what you'd expect if it's 25% because one To Hit SO would bring that up to 33.25%. I went ahead and put a second To Hit in it for good measure because missing with Knockout Blow is just depressing. I still miss occasionally, but not very much unless I'm fighting +4s or above.

The only downside to this is you HAVE to hit Rage every two minutes or whiff whiff whiff, and you have to deal with being forced into spectator mode every two minutes.

Dwimble

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Rage needs to have more drawbacks.

Right now it only has a cost to activate, a 25% end drain when it's over, a defense debuff when it's over, and 10 seconds where you can only use powers on yourself.

How about we make police drones aggro you when Rage crashes, or possibly just give a certain amount of debt per activation.

This power does the job of FIVE inspirations! With great power comes great responsibility.



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My reaction

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...Too many people got used to the wonderful feeling of permaRage/permaUnstoppable or permaRage/mobile mez protection. Too bad that it was totally unbalanced and unfair to the other powersets who have nothing like it.

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Actually all of the other tanker powersets DO have something like it...Build Up, which has no penalty other than it can't be made perma, and it takes five more slots to reach its best potential.

Rage provides an 80% boost to base damage for 120 seconds and then ten seconds of zero damage. That comes out to roughly a 66% boost to base damage overall. Build Up can be up roughly half the time and provides a 100% boost to base damage. That comes out to about a 50% boost to base damage overall. Actually it is a bit less than that since Build Up falls short of being up half the time by a few percent, but it's close enough to make the point.

Even if you make Build Up 40% overall that is still just a 25% base damage advantage for Rage. That's equivalent to a single 50 influence damage inspiration. That's hardly something that made Super Strength "unbalanced" or "unfair", except perhaps to War Mace, which is decidedly the worst tanker secondary and needs some love. Further, if you used Rage the way you suggest, only situationally for AVs and/or big bosses, then it would be providing potentially much less than Build Up because Build Up has none of the disadvantages, which means it can be used in every battle, multiple times.

Now, all that aside, I'm not one to curse Rage or defend it. I think it provides a good benefit, with a tolerable penalty. My main complaint with it is that it isn't fun. The stun wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, the 100% endurance drop wasn't fun and made most tankers not use it, and the 10-second stand there like an idiot with you buttons frozen isn't fun either. TONS of suggestions for alternatives have been made in this thread and the couple of other active Rage threads. Frankly I don't see how you could have missed them if you've read the threads at all.

Hardly anyone at all has complained about no damage for 10 seconds. But what most people across the board have agreed upon is that tankers should still be able to Taunt or have taunt auras during the crash (even if the taunt is reduced a bit). At least then you wouldn't have to go through button-mashing annoyance every two minutes or feel like an inanimate sack of meat.

Dwimble

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I'm guessing that Accuracy will be nerfed.

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wait wait wait, i thought accuracy was nerfed last patch, and issue 4 would nerf stamina/endurance (again)

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Accuracy WAS nerfed last patch, and every issue and patch before that since the game was released. Anyone who has read these forums should surely know that. A few more patches and you will have to 6-slot for Accuracy just to get UP to the 5% mininum.

Oh, and the devs hate tankers and Invulnerability is now gimpy and unplayable. And they think blasters are the greatest thing ever and will never nerf anything ever for any blaster for all eternity--except Rain-type powers and the Devices secondary (the devs hate Devices too).

Dwimble

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BINGO!
Give SablePhoenix a prize!
The latest version of RAGE is extremely UN-FUN!


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That's my conclusion too. I've had the chance to play with it a bit now, including on the Manticore TF (which I posted about in one of these Rage threads) and my number one, two, and three problem with it is that is simply isn't fun in this state. I'll use it because the benefits are good, but the "fun factor" makes me not even want to use it when playing solo...much less on a team.

On the TF I died a couple of times because I wasn't watching my endurance closely enough and the resulting Rage crash caused my squishy Fire tanker toggles to drop. Frankly, I think that penalty plus the -def is enough. If forces me to pay attention to what I'm doing and with care or the right teammates can be worked around.

What is monumentally "unfun" in my opinion is the sort of surprise button-mashing blackhole at the end of Rage. I hate the helpless feeling it gives, which is very similar to the feeling I get when I'm chain-held, even though I'm not really in any danger of dying from it.

No matter how many times I use it, it just seems "off." It seems like something is broken or the client is locking up. Suddenly I just can't press the buttons, realize it's because of Rage, feel annoyed, and then mash mash mash until the pause ends and the attack or taunt goes off. I wish the buttons would at least be grayed out like when exemplared instead of just suddenly not working like during lag. But, I'd really rather there be a massive damage debuff, make Taunt half-strength, or something like that instead of the button freeze. It's just disconcerting, even if not particularly dangerous.

Dwimble

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...Rage doubles or even triples my damage output for as long as it's active. That is a HECK of a good thing to have when you are facing hard odds or a big bad boss...

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Where does something like this come from? Just a bit of an exaggeration there. Rage does NOT double anyone's damage ever, and of course that means that it certainly doesn't triple it either.

Rage adds 80% damage to you BASE damage. So, even if you have zero damage enhancements in an attack, at best Rage will almost double it...again, that's if you have ZERO damage enhancements in the attack.

If you have an attack six-slotted for damage then Rage adds 26% to your total damage, which is certainly respectable but hardly anything incredible. The only possible way for Rage to double your damage is if you 6-slot it with recharges, stack it, and then have at most one damage enhancement in the attack.

Dwimble

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When Rage 3.0 expires:
-75% of base endurance (so if you're below 75% of your base endurance when it expires, you crash, shutting off all toggles)

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You are mistaken. Unless the version they pushed to live is bugged, it is a 25% base endurance drop, not 75%.

Here's the update text:

"Tanker/Super Strength/Rage will now only drain 25% of your Endurance, but will leave you unable to affect other targets (cannot attack) for 10 seconds when the buff wears off. Also, updated short and long help (Rage always gave an ACC bonus, but this was never on the description)."

Dwimble