Draggynn
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Posts
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Quote:I wonder if this effect could be achieved equally well by putting a lower limit on regen debuffing that isn't zero? Although that would affect other entities than AVs, although usually other enemies are defeated so quickly that -regen debuffs have no place.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
IMO part of the balance that should happen would be to split AV regen between a debuffable and non-debuffable portions. -Regen matters way too much during high level AV fights, and that, more than anything else, is what splits the sets down the middle. -
Quote:I agree that this has taken up too much of this thread, so I will explain why it is an issue that I have bothered continuing to argue. It has been my impression from your posts that view Cold as well balanced, and that other sets should be brought more into line with Cold in terms of available buffs and debuffs. This is a view point that I obviously oppose. I believe that Cold is overpowered and should not be considered a standard on which to judge sets. Is it really relevant whether Storm or Cold is more powerful, No. But I do believe that Cold should not be used as the measuring stick. Clearly we rapidly digressed too far from that topic, and progress down the road we travelled has become useless. So the answer to the above question for me is, "No". I don't think other sets should be brought into line with cold because I think it's spectrum of buffs and debuffs is unbalanced. I'm sorry that point was lost in our discussion. That said, certainly Trick Arrow deserves a buff.Originally Posted by Diellan_
Frankly, we've let this argument go a bit too far for this thread, I think. We're not really touching either of these sets: you'll notice it had only one item on our list, and that had to do with Thunderclap being terrible. Cold Domination, likewise, had a single line about Infrigidate. As far as Garent and I are concerned, both sets are basically fine (fine enough for the purposes of this experiment, anyway).
The only real issue is whether or not other sets deserve to be able to compete with them (see Trick Arrow's debuff potential compared to theirs).
One final response here:
I think you missed my point here. Sleet and Freezing Rain are THE SAME for Controller and Corruptors. Meaning Controller/Corruptor Sleet (yes they're technically different pseudopets but that's irrelevant) and Controller/Corruptor Freezing Rain have exactly the same numbers. Your point was that Storm.Freezing Rain is better than Cold.Sleet. My point was, actually if Cold had been given Defender modifiers for Sleet, they would be exactly the same (and are for more than half the ATs that have Cold Domination and Storm Summoning). On a side note, I take the fact that there was a never a defender modifier version of sleet made an indication that the devs felt cold was too powerful with defender modifiers. Of course it may just have been an oversight.Quote:ah, that was a brain fart. My point still stands, though: it's not the Defender numbers happen to be the same as Controller Freezing Rain; Defender Sleet summons Pets_Sleet_Defender, the same one that Controllers summon. Corruptors summon Pets_Sleet. But Pets_Sleet_Defender and Pets_Sleet are virtually identical. So either it was bugged and the Devs meant to give Controllers the Corruptor summon and to buff the Defender one, or they're satisfied with it as it is (in which case, that's an advantage towards Storm).
I apologize Garent for our rather lenghty digression from the original point. -
Quote:Huh???? Defenders already have Cold. And I'm telling you that the version of Sleet that everyone has is exaclty the same, and the numbers happen to be identical to Controller Freezing Rain. Is it a bug, that defenders didn't get a buffed version of Sleet? Perhaps, but I think it was intentional as most folks with experience with the two would agree, Cold already has a heavy advantage on Storm.Originally Posted by Diellan_
It's tough to say, because the pseudo-pet being summoned for Cold Domination on Controllers is called Pets_Sleet_Defender (as opposed to Pets_Sleet, which is being called by Corruptors). This is probably a mistake/bug, but it implies that when Cold gets ported to Defenders, they'll get the existing Controller version.
Yes, theoretically. But in practice, many AVs have resistance to Smashing/Energy damage, and as you rightly notice, unless you have an immobolize, getting the full potential out of either LS or tornado is quite difficult as AVs like to run which will both reduce the damage output of Tornado and render LS useless as soon as the AV gets out of range. And if your DPS falls below that 95 threshhold you can end up heading back towards square one. A risk that Cold is only in serious threat of if benumb misses. My comment earlier in the thread was not to suggest that Storm is better than sets with -regen, but to suggest that giving storm -regen on top of its DPS was too much.Quote:You yourself in this very thread estimated that LS and Tornado, double-stacked, would provide the equivalent of -90% Regen. Benumb is -500%, which would be resisted to -75% against a level 50 AV (smaller at higher levels), and has a base uptime of only 25% (and the effects don't stack, so if you have the recharge to make it perma, it won't get any better than -75%). And applying -Res increases the amount that LS and Tornado can provide.
It's certainly a lot more work keeping up all the debuffs and damage sources on Storm, and to truly leverage it to its fullest potential, you need some kind of Immob/-KB source (Electric Fence from the Electric Mastery is a good fallback, since it is a moderately good DPA power in its own right). Cold wins there, hands down.
As I said initially, which one comes out ahead depends on the situation in which you put the defender, but the majority would agree that in general Cold comes out ahead. As someone with extensive experience with Storm and while less, not inconsiderable experience with Cold, you are not going to convince me that Storm is more powerful than Cold. It appears that I will be unable to do the same, in large part because I think we are using different metrics to judge. Solo against groups, I have conceded that a well played Storm defender can come out ahead. On a Team and against hard targets though, I think Cold comes out ahead. And in general, I consider a Defender's role to defend the team, so I tend to give more weight to team, than solo performance when I evaluate. -
Quote:I solo AVs on storm as well, and I often find myself thinking, "this would be so much easier with cold", and I suspect there are few that would disagree. As I said before, Storm can pull ahead of Cold in groups (barely), but against an AV there is no contest.Originally Posted by Diellan_
I've watched Garent solo AVs with his Storm Defender, back before it was ridiculously easy to cap your own defense with set bonuses.
Sure tagging with hurricane can essential soft cap the team against those you hit, but Cold can provide 24% defense against all (most) enemies including those that you missed with hurricane. And given most folks have some defense to begin with these days, it's a whole lot more effective than just a base 24% defense would be.
It's also worth noting, that the Freezing Rain advantage you're talking about is only relevant on Defenders. Sleet is Controller Freezing Rain and since sleet doesn't vary across ATs, Controller Sleet and Freezing Rain are identical.
The damage advantage from LS and tornado is only relevant against groups, since against an AV the -regen from cold will more than compensate (especially solo, since there is no risk of losing ground due to gaps in the dps chain). -
Quote:I think you expect too much from this debuff set comparison. I think that the intention was to quantify the aspects of the debuff power that can be quantified. I don't necessarily agree with using this to extrapolate out that certain sets are lacking, because as you say, the sets need to be considered as a whole, not just as particular debuff powers. However, for what it is, I think this is helpful.Originally Posted by New Dawn
I think you're too easily pleased from your first sentence. I would concentrate on the complete powerset if it were me. I know how to play my Trick Archer, in any given team make up, I know what I can offer other powersets because I know other powersets but its upto the players in the team whether or not they want make the most of it. Some people have one dynamic no matter what the defender. This means I can decide on two things either people fail using a TA for support or TA just doesn't have the goods.
[snip]
"These are what I play and out of them I feel that such and such is underperforming in various described scenarios". In truth there are more AVs I'd happily rely on a TA for than there are with Sonic.
As I explained, I would have tried to find a way that provided an easier way to compare the relative debuffing aspects against each other, but I think this is a very good start. I think your method of relying on personal anecdotes is somewhat problematic because if I relied only on anecdotes, then I would have to believe that with all the nerfs, the base accuracy in the game is currently negative. Is there a place for subjectivity, yes. But I think the objective quantification is important too, and although we've had lots of subjective analysis over the years, I think the objective analysis has been fairly limited on this front. -
Quote:Well, this is a more complex issue than it would seem at first. So in general AVs at lvl 50 will resist Hurricane by 85% and EBs will resist Hurricane by 20% (as all bosses will). However, many (I would say most)AVs when reduced to EBs in solo play maintain their 85% resistance, so you can't make a blanket statement about EBs.Originally Posted by Tired Angel
Hmmm, you've definitely given me something to think about there. If I brough Snow Storm to lvl 4 and then I could take Hurricane at 30. However how much of the To Hit Debuff is actually resisted by EBs (solo), AVs/GMs (teamed) as that is only time I would use it because of my melee centric play style.
Of course, Hurricane is a large enough debuff that against an AV it may make a difference (fully slotted you're looking at a 7% debuff). That may help keep your teammates alive alonger, but it also gets you closer to the action, and thus is more dangerous for you and may not be a desirable option. Against a non former AV EB, Hurricane with steamy mist should allow you to solo the EBs handily. -
Quote:Actually I think Garent did a very good job of laying out what he was trying to do. The problem with including Oil Slick Arrow in the analysis is that there isn't necessarily a good way to quantify what the KB means. How do you provide that as a number? How do you compare the KB in oil slick arrow to the KB in Repulsion Bomb? And how does this actually translate into defending the team. Granted, that is also a problem with the presentation of -recharge as it is also hard to quantify exactly what it means in practice, but rather than providing meaningless numbers, Garent opted to eliminate KB from the analysis.Originally Posted by Horusaurus
So we're not counting debuffs as debuffs anymore. This thread is so confusing.
If you have a proposal for how to integrate KB into Garent's analysis that does not require undo work on his part, I'm sure he'd love to hear it. If it does require a tremendous amount of work, I would encourage you to undertake the endeavor yourself, and if you lay out your methodology clearly, I'm sure he would consider including it in the analysis. -
Quote:I'm not sure that the solution to buffing empathy is to encourage greater rocking of the auraOriginally Posted by WarMage
I have also felt that Healing Aura should have its cast time reduced somewhat. When you are in your teens and twenties, you can use this power to heal and lose as much health during the cast time as the amount that gets healed back.
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Quote:How would you have included oil slick arrow in the above analysis?Originally Posted by Horusaurus
I stopped reading once I saw that you did not include oil slick. But thanks for trying.
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I'm a fan of Power Mastery mostly for conserve power which is the best endurance recovery power for a Storm Defender in my experience (because we go through endurance so quickly). Power Build up, although not as useful on Storm as some sets does make for a very nice series of supercharged heals when you need them, and the damage boost on enemies already debuffed by freezing rain isn't exactly something to scoff at. Since power boost doesn't have the +damage component, it is much less useful.
Your secondary would definitely have a big impact on whether any of the holds are useful. If you don't have anything to stack it with, I'm not sure that I would bother (although having some sort of mez to take troublesome Lts. out of the action is useful, although many secondaries already have something to fit that bill).
As Stormy Darkness said, world of confusion is not particularly useful. It's radius is fairly small, and you have hurricane to keep you out of melee. If you are often in a range where WoC would be useful, I would suggest there might be better ways to play your Stormie.
I'm currently using Mu Mastery because it gives me conserve power, as well as allowing me to reach the defender resistance cap for smash/lethal/energy with the help of the cardiac alpha slot. A very nice trick in my opinion.
Of course, one of the most popular choices which is not on your list is Dark Mastery to stack oppressive gloom with thunder clap. (As my earlier melee comment may suggest, this is not a strategy I am particularly fond of, but it is popular). And as Stormy Darkness said, Soul Drain is an awfully nice buff.
The other popular option which Stormy Darkness mentioned and is not on your list is Mace Mastery for Scorpion Shield to soft cap smash/lethal/energy. Personally, I prefer leveraging hurricane to protect against melee and soft capping range, and taking a set with resistance for greater survivability, but if you want a cheap soft cap (Storm can do it with little IO help if you're willing to take a slew of defense powers (weave, maneuvers, hover, combat jumping) that's the way to go. -
Quote:Hmm, that was not something I had considered...perhaps a countess crey doll, you may have more work coming your way yetOriginally Posted by Laylarei
maybe a villian for your doll to fight
or you can order a stone daemon doll that it can use as a punching bag XD
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Having received little Draggynn (still working on a name) in the mail yesterday, I must say these are every bit as amazing as they look in the pictures. I am one very pleased customer! It almost makes me sad that I don't have other alts that I care about to commission one for.
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Quote:You won't find me arguing against that.Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
I think Cold more than holds it's weight against Storm and that's not even with the ease of use factor either.
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Quote:Exaclty, which is precisely why Storm doesn't need a change like this. Yes Cold gets our same MASSIVE ammount of -res (a well built Storm or Cold defender with a little bit of luck can often triple stack sleet/freezing rain) and -regen, but that doesn't mean that Storm Defenders should as well. Against an AV a storm defender has the potential to bring:Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso
-Regen plus the direct damage would make it a monstrous damage multiplier against AVs.
35-105% -resistance, (depending on how lucky you get)
9% to-hit debuff
about 25% -recharge (with double stack FR)
But more importantly, that little bit of dps you were talking about...a Storm Defender built for recharge can get perma 2 tornados and perma 2 Lightning Storms. If the AV has no resistance that works out to be:
44.49*1.95*2/5+6.67*2*2*1.95 = 86 damage per second (without -res factored in)
That's the equivalent of 90% -regen. Granted things often don't work out quite this well because AV's have resistances and if you don't have someone to immobolize them, they can run. And this isn't out of the box, but requires slotting heavily for recharge (although not that heavily with hasten)
Now imagine a Storm Defender being given a -regen component on top of all of that in a power that is autohit (benumb, lingering radiation, twilight grasp, EMP pulse, EMP arrorw, and transfusion all require to-hit checks. Howling Twilight doesn't, not sure about what traps and poison have) , it quickly becomes too much. -
Quote:I meant thematically in terms of powers in the set. I consider Dark to generally be a debuff set, so it makes sense to see -resistance in Dark. It just doesn't make sense to me in Force Fields. I'm also not certain I buy the argument that Force Fields needs to have something to contribute in offensive situations. We do have an entire secondary after all, so it's not as if forcefielders are sitting around doing nothing.Originally Posted by Diellan_
It makes about as much sense as Tar Patch causing -Resistance. More, in my mind, in that Repulsion Bomb is a large burst of energy that could mess with the targets' defenses in a similar manner to Sonic attacks.
**shrugs** depends on the situation. As an obvious proponent of Storm, I generally consider Cold to be more powerful, especially for equal amounts of effort. Played smart, Storm can perform better against groups on account of Hurricane and LS (and to a lesser extent Thunder Clap). Against hard targets though, Cold pulls miles ahead thanks to benumb and shields not being susceptible to the purple patch. Not to mention that cold gets the joys of endless endurance which opens up more slotting and incarnate options.Quote:Cold, by the way, I don't consider nearly as powerful as Storm, Rad, or Dark (the latter two of which were available to Corruptors from the beginning). -
Quote:Hmm, clearly my comprehension skills need improvement. I guess I just assumed since some of the changes you are recommending are to make non stackable powers stackable, that you wouldn't introduce another non-stackable power.Originally Posted by Diellan_
I explicitly said non-stackable. It'd never be more than 20% -Resist.
Even if it doesn't stack, 20% still feels like a lot, and the -res doesn't make sense thematically to me. I'm all for increasing the damage of force bolt or repulsion bomb, but adding -res just seems sort of arbitrary.Quote:Even if it doesn't stack? -20% isn't a huge amount. My reason for something besides -ToHit and -Damage is that these are defensive debuffs and Forcefield already has the defense side of things down pat; when it comes to helping the team offensively it has very little to provide (Repulsion Bomb is really it).
Personally, I'm not convinced that the new paradigm has been implemented correctly. It's my personal belief that cold was balanced around the fact that villains didn't have access to defender level modifiers or any of the hero buff sets to compete with, and that when it was proliferated it became too powerful. This would appear to be supported by the lack of a defender modifier version of sleet, but it is the same across all ATs. Like I said before, I think trying to make the sets comparable to cold is a mistake.Quote:It might've been the original paradigm, yeah, but that was six years ago and experience has shown that the original paradigm (if that's what it was) didn't work out so well. -
Quote:Not to mention the one likely to generate the most rage.Originally Posted by Garent
I'm guessing it's the stacking. After looking at raw power data, I realized that -all- resistance debuffs are set to be unstackable. The reason we never realize this design decision (if that's what it is) is because so many resistance debuffs are pseudopets that this isn't apparent.
There are pretty much three options when it comes to this fact. 1: Remove the inability to stack from certain powers to make them in line with the pseudopet debuffs, 2: use some weird grantpower acrobatics to make pseudopets obey unstackability, and 3: don't rock the boat. 2 is most likely the hardest. -
Quote:I'm a little confused by this. I don't deny that Freezing Rain and Sleet may be overpowered, but as they currently work they are actually weaker than designed, due to a bug with lingering debuffs. I'm curious what bug you think makes them stronger than intended? Do you think they're not supposed to stack?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I should warn you you're more likely to get Freezing Rain and Sleet nerfed. One of the biggest and not well understood reasons why FR and Sleet are stronger than DA is almost certainly a bug.
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Quote:Whoa, yeah...that would be WAY too high in my opinion and way out of line. 20% debuff for 20 seconds on a 30 second recharge could be easily stacked to provide a perma 40% debuff which would exceed rad and dark's -resistance debuffs. Sets that are intended to provide debuffs. I definitely cannot support that change.Originally Posted by Diellan_
Well, the -Resist and recharge reduction were listed as "either-or". Reducing the recharge turns it into an extra aoe attack, while adding debuffs makes it an aoe debuff power that just so happens to deal really good damage. I didn't write it in as such, but I was taking my inspiration from Venom Grenade, a 24 second recharging power that deals 1.0 scale toxic damage and has a scale 2.0 resist debuff to all but toxic (which it has a scale 4.0 resist debuff to) for 16 seconds (non-stackable). Leaving Repulsion Bomb at 30 seconds and putting in a 20 second non-stacking scale 2.0 resist debuff seems fairly reasonable to me.
And I think that would support my claim about the original paradigm. Empathy and Forcefields were the original buff sets (for survival at least, kin is a buff set, but isn't really targeted at survival). Remember that sonic wasn't added until later.Quote:Force Field and Empathy are the only sets out of the entire suite that do not have any debuffs, and Force Field has several enemy affecting powers anyway (five powers out of nine). And it's been that way from the beginning, well before CoV.
Several things. I wasn't concerned about the changes making forcefields obsolete. You aren't taking anything away from FF, just adding new things. My concern is about making other debuffing sets obsolete, if you try to bring the buffing sets into line with the existing debuffing sets.Quote:I don't really see how adding debuffs to Force Field's enemy affecting powers makes Force Field obsolete, or steps on the toes of Cold, which has fantastic debuff potential in addition good buffs (Sleet alone is a better power than everything we've suggested combined).
I also don't think cold should necessarily be the standard that you are comparing other sets to, as I think cold is likely overpowered as is. Having buffs that are that strong combined with debuffs that are that strong is a bit much. I don't think I can get behind creating another cold.
I could get behind these changes and even the -to-hit and -damage in force bubble. That would help it stand out more from cold. It's mostly the -resistance that just doesn't sit well with me, especially at the magnitudes being suggested.Quote:My personal vision for force field is that it be an amazing defense buffing set (I doubt anyone will argue that the set as it is succeeds in this area) while also having strong personal survivability, an ability to mitigate damage using reliable and controllable knockback powers on enemies, and a few powers that double as extra attacks (the suggested force bolt damage increase and recharge reduction in repulsion bomb are meant to accomplish this).
I'd like to put some defense debuff resistance into the set somewhere. Dispersion bubble is the most intuitive place to put it, put doing that means coming up with a comparable buff to sonic dispersion, and there's no such thing as resistance to resistance debuff (as a singular stat). -
Quote:You can get the numbers by right clicking on the power in the incarnate tree. It's an 80% boost for the first 22.5 seconds, a 20% boost for the next 22.5 seconds and a 10% boost for the final 45 seconds.Originally Posted by TeChameleon
*headshake*
It's not the boosted range, it's the Power Boost (which is sadly only available from the 90-second Radial tree). Hmm... speaking of which, I wonder if anyone has hard numbers on exactly how big a boost that is? -
Mixed feelings on an initial read through. I agree that many of these sets could use improvements and some of the ideas are quite good, but I think adopting all of these changes could be problematic in some circumstances.
I suppose my biggest issue is with Force fields. I believe that Force fields should remain predominantly a buff set, and although I'm not opposed to it doing some debuffing, providing 20% -resist on a power with a 20 second recharge means that forcefields is able to rival sets that are intended to be debuffers. (granted that depends on what sort of duration we're talking, if it's just 8 seconds like sonic attacks, then I suppose it isn't really an issue) Not to mention the -dam and -to-hit you're suggesting adding. Any of the changes to FF on their own seem reasonable, taken together though they seem like too much to me.
Granted with the advent of CoV and Cold and Thermal, the idea of buffing sets at the exclusion of debuffs was pretty much done away with, so perhaps I'm just too attached to an outdated paradigm. Also, if we were to get any of these changes we certainly wouldn't get all of them, so is it better to aim too high with the assumption that the results will be less? I'm not sure. I'll have to see how I feel about this more after sleeping on it. Perhaps it's just a fear of being rendered obsolete. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you plan on staying at range mag 4 protection is usually enough. If you plan on doing quite a bit of blapping you'll want to go all the way to 12. Even then there are a few things that will still KB you such as Mary on the KHTF and Scirocco.
One thing I will mention. There is no use at all going with 2 -KB IOs there are virtually no mob PVE powers that have KB in the mag 5-8 range. The only time that happens is when 2 KB powers hit at about the same server tick, an extremely rare occurrence.I would say that it depends a lot on your play style, if you tend to solo a lot against x6-8 then stacking KB can be a VERY common occurrence (council in my experience are one of the worst) and I would highly recommend going for 8 points. If you tend to team or solo small groups, then 4 points should be fine with the caveats folks have already mentioned.Quote:Originally Posted by EJI
4 pts is fine for the majority of situations, excepting Nemesis Wands, Carnie Phantasm and decoy combo, Rikti Pylons... And getting into melee while there is still a lot of incoming AoE with kb (Malta, and I think Nemesis). -
Now, some thoughts on the build:
The biggest problem with this build is that your set bonuses are all over the place. You're going for a little ranged defense, a little smashing lethal defense, and a little AoE defense. Your build will be MUCH stronger, if you pick one smash/lethal, or ranged and actually get it to the soft cap (45%).
When 5 slotting a power, you will almost always be near the ED cap, and thus tend to do more damage slotting the damage proc. This is true for every power you currently have Positron's Blasts in.
Snow Storm is way over slotted. If you use the power a lot stick two endurance reducers in there...and if you REALLY want, a slow. But six slots is too much. Especially given the set has middling bonuses.
Freezing Rain should be slotted to the ED cap for recharge. slotting so heavily for defense debuff will produce mediocre results as there are very few enemies that you will need that much defense debuff against, and those that do, usually resist the debuffs so much that it isn't worthwhile.
Hurricane: Take one of those slots you're putting in Snow Storm in stick it here for the 5% recharge bonus.
kick: Do you actually use kick to attack? If not I think it's a waste to slot kick and brawl for defense bonuses if you aren't actually going to go all the way for the soft cap.
Lightning Storm: Here again your kind of building for set bonuses, but not going far enough. Rather than dithering back and forth between ranged defense and smash/lethal, pick one of them and actually soft cap it! having 45% to one thing is a WHOLE lot better than having 30% to everything.
Tactics: over slotted unless your actually going to hit the soft cap. -
It's usually better to post the build, rather than just a link to it. Also, posting a link that folks can actually click on helps as well. Here is the OPs build from above:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Noughticus: Level 50 Magic Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3)
Level 1: Gale -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Fire Ball -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(5), Posi-Dmg/Rng(7), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7)
Level 4: Snow Storm -- TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(9), TmpRdns-Rng/Slow(9), TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(11), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(37), TmpRdns-Acc/Dmg/Slow(40)
Level 6: Rain of Fire -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(13), Posi-Dmg/Rng(13), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15)
Level 8: Fire Breath -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(17), Posi-Dmg/Rng(17), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19)
Level 10: Steamy Mist -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(19), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 12: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- ExVuln-DefDeb(A), ExVuln-DefDeb/Rchg(27), ExVuln-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(27), Achilles-DefDeb(29), Achilles-DefDeb/Rchg(29), Achilles-ResDeb%(31)
Level 18: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(31), Zephyr-ResKB(31)
Level 20: Aim -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(33)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33)
Level 24: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Hurricane -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(46), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(50)
Level 28: Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(34), S'fstPrt-ResKB(36)
Level 32: Inferno -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 35: Tornado -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(42), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(43), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(43), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(46)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- ExStrk-Dmg/KB(A), ExStrk-Acc/KB(39), ExStrk-Dam%(39), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Dark Consumption -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam(45), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(45), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(45), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Soul Drain -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(48), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(48), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(48), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(50), GSFC-Build%(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(21), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 1: Scourge
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(37), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(37) -
Just a couple thoughts from skimming the thread, haven't read it completely though. I did enjoy the movie thoroughly, but then my expectation were pretty low going in.
I'm not sure I agree with the comment that the x-men have always been kids. Sure X-men 1.0 were kids (angel, marvel girl, beast, cyclops, iceman) but I always had the impression that X-men 2.0 were older. (Banshee, Wolverine, and Storm in particular). And I think it's a little disingenuous to claim the angst in the X-men is new. Storm was moody for a really long time in the comics as she dealt with being a pacifist who had harmed people and trying to resolve that. There was a lot of moody Jean Grey while she dealt with the implications of what she had done as Dark Phoenix. Granted my knowledge is really only post 1975 and it may have been more care free before that....but post 1975 is a ways back to be claiming that the mood isn't authentic.
As to the race issue, I think X-men has long suffered from having almost all of its characters being for the most part white and middle class which I think they tried to remedy with team 2.0 to limited affect (Canadian, Japanese, Kenyan, Russian, German, Apache, (probably missing one or two)) since the Japanese and Apache mutants didn't last long as I recall.
Unfortunately, I don't think they could change the race of any the mutants without fans getting upset, and the cast of minority characters to draw upon is rather limited especially seeing as Storm wasn't an option. I'm not so certain that this is a X-Men issue, so much as it is an issue of comics in general.