DrZeus

And spud.. it's a matter of interpretation, but saying "Shut up, you!" also isn't considered very polite in most situations, no matter WHAT your intention. The other people in this thread don't appear to be the impolite ones.



But seriously, I have to assume the people at NCSoft knew what they were going to be causing when they selected a winner who they knew should have been disqualified. I'm assuming hyper-man was disqualified for suspicion of photoshopping in a background (the background DOES look a little like a postcard picture, but I'm no expert in image manipulation), since his costume/location combination was clearly superior to everyone elses, mine included, and I was standing in front of a 40 foot statue of a hero! So I suspect that hyper-man was disqualified but the carnie wasn't... you HAVE to know that NCSoft expected the reaction... and simply didn't care.

And.. I assume that is what people are complaining about. Not that someone with a good costume won... no one is complaining about that. But they're complaining about the dartboard appearance of who is disqualified and who isn't.


Every contest has some appearance of a dartboard involved. No matter who runs it. I'm sure each of us can look at at least one of the contest winners and think "wow.. I wouldn't have even put that person in the top ten, let alone as a winner". Even a systematic approach can LOOK random. But when you add in something that really seems extra random on top of the already random appearing judging process... well, that is really dissuading for some people.

Just because you don't care... doesn't mean others don't. If you don't share their concerns, great. But it's rude as hell to tell them to shut up just because you don't share their concerns.

Zeus - god of the straight and narrow

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Zeus, how did you get around with that costume? It looks like one solid hard shell. Or did you go as a statue?

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It's not a hard shell, the whole thing is constructed of polyurethane foam. I created a full body mold of a heavily muscled human, and poured a chemichal in that blew up 15 times it's size and turned into foam. So the whole thing is rather thin... well, maybe an inch thick at some parts, but it has to be as it's a wearable costume. And.. fully flexible of course.

Actually the flexibility was a BIT of an issue, as the shoulders didn't move about as much as i would have liked. The other joints were fine.. just not the shoulders... This limited my mobility and made it so I couldn't touch my own head. I'll have to work on the design a bit. But other than the shoulders the thing works fine... I actually wore the torso out bowling the night before I took the picture... I wore the labcoat and cowl with the torso, and the whole thing actually looked pretty badass.

Just as a tip though.. don't enter a bowling alley with a full latex cowl. The ear covering acts as an amplifier to all ambient sound.... the cowl lasted about thirty seconds in the bowling alley.



Zeus - god of flexibility

Yeah... the update schedule is slowing down. Rapidly. Well, I can't really say that. It doesn't seem to be slowing down. It seems to have hit first gear and then it appears to have been set on cruise control.


I figured that I7 would have been the exception... but it seems it's going to be the rule. Six months to a year between releases. At this point we won't be calling them by their numbers, we'll be referring to them by their respective years. At this point issue seven will be "the issue of 2006". It doesn't look like things are speeding up at any point, and I expect we'll see things like the invention system sometime before 2008.

It was made clear a long time ago... changes are simply not something to wait for. You either like this game as is or you don't and move on. But don't expect any changes.

Zeus - god of expectations

Wait a second... the arena building has an inside? Does anyone else know about this?

Zeus - god of tournaments

Well, I hope he's working on a Deadlands MMO. That would be great.

Zeus - god of farewells

Um.. I don't think this comic will sell very well.


First of all, there is not a single monkey on the cover.

Secondly, every comic needs a cameo from spiderman or wolverine. I think that's written in the comic code or something.

Anyway, add those two things and it may just sell a million copies!

Zeus - god of truthful critiquing

You guys don't have kool aid? Man... that's a shame. You must have some equivilent however... it's about the only affordable solution to drink. (water is fine, but sometimes you need solution, like when you have a sore throat or just crave some taste).


Kool aid by the way is simply a powdered drink mix. Some people like myself are really cheap and get the kind where you add a bunch of sugar to a 2 liter container and then a little packet of powder, and you get some coolaid. I'm not sure the actual name of the product.. Kool aid is just a name brand, it's like calling "facial tissues" kleenex.



You must have something like that though.


Oh, and in massachusetts they call soda - "tonic". Always got a kick out of that one.

Zeus - god of sody pop

Well of course, his name was "buckminster". That's just ASKING to be a cool guy.

Do you know anyone named buckminster? Didn't think so.



Seriously though, I"m afraid the days of howard huges, buckminster fuller and nicola tesla are long dead. The world was hard on these people... as the world is always hard on an eccentric genuis. But currently.. the world is not JUST hard, but unwelcoming as well. I suppose it always has been... but I fear it's gotten worse. The days of the eccentric genius are over.

Zeus - god of not being named buckminster.

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Ok, let's schedule an Arena Battle Royale to determine this issue. All those in favor of "Character" vs. all those in favor of "Toon". At least we can then get back to playing the game instead of arguing over why TOON is wrong and Character is right. Geez. That's like arguing over the world being Flat or Round.................................

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Of course that argument is silly... everyone knows the world is shaped like a giant D20!

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Actually a valid projection called the Dymaxion map, or the Fuller projection. If I'm remembering correctly Buckminster Fuller came up with the idea, but needed help with the math. You can check it out here.

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I thought the dimaxion was a revolutionary car of which only 3 were ever produced?

Zeus - god of wondery

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i will say only this.

go watch the cartoon network. they show more then still drawings there.

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Yup. they show animated cartoons, and non-cartoon animation as well. They don't specialize in cartoons, despite the name. They specialize in animation.

Zeus - god of subtle differences

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if i say toon and you get offended/ticked off/whatever because you dont like the word whos fault is it? mine? how am i to know that word is one you do not like? so i am at fault because i cant read your mind?

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It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is that an effect WILL happen, YOU know it will happen, I know it will happen, so what does it matter WHY it will happen or whose fault it is THAT it will happen. How are you supposed to know it's a word people don't like? Well, that may be a moot issue in another debate, but not really here, since you already know a lot of people don't like the word toon. It's not a matter of mind reading here. It's a matter of established fact. Now if you didn't happen to know, that's one thing... but after you DO know, like you know now... the ignorance argument just doesn't hold water, that's my point.



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i know what the words conjure up in my mind.


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And if your target audience for all your speech is yourself, then this would make a difference. What I'm saying is that you're talking to OTHER PEOPLE... so THEIR interpretations are what matters. If you use words that conjure mental images that you don't intend, then you are simply not communicating effectively. In this case.. if you use a word that you KNOW conjures a different mental image in other people's minds, and choose to ignore that fact because you're insistant that they should have the same mental images that you do... that that's merely ignoring reality.

People don't have the same mental images that you do. So why assume they do? You don't know how they think specifically, but you know general trends. I'd say roughly 50% of anyone hearing the word "toon" is going to cringe a bit. Will that guy over there cringe? I don't know... but why irritate him when there are more appropriate word choices? It's not like there's ANY advantage of the term... while there ARE disadvantages.

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you are responsible for you. i am responsible for me. after all is said and done we have only ourselves to answer to.

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Quite so. But this isn't really relevant to the conversation. While you are responsible for your actions, you are also obligated to realize that the world is filled with differeent people... like it or not, like THEM or not, we have to deal with the fact that these other people are not just like we are.

Zeus - god of percentages

A thought just occured to me... on a slightly similar note.

Many fads... and perhaps this leet speaking thing is among them... while perpetrated by kids, are not DESIGNED by kids.

Imagine if you will, a 13 year old girl watching a commercial... cool looking kids are walking around with text messengers, messaging each other in class in some lame leet speak. They get out of class, one girl is on the way home, and there's a message on her little box (Edit - heh - that wasn't intentional, but still funny) saying "PaR-T 2nite - B there!" and she giggles and heads off to the mall to buy a new pair of pink shoes.

I've seen my neices watch this kind of commercial, and seen their reactions to it. They want a text messenger, and they want to talk all cool and leet on it. And my sister, having a lot of money and no ability to handle money in any way, will buy them for her kids.



And yet... behind the scenes, that commercial was thought of and designed by a group of 40 year old businessmen. They sat around a board table and tried to figure out what kids do. "well, they like to talk with numbers". A bunch of squares sit around in business suits and power ties and make the commercials and shows that dictate what the fads actually are!

So maybe the kid fads are getting lamer lately not because the kids are getting lamer... but because the kids are SEEN as lamer by the people making up their fads, that's what the kids will become. Sure, the kids won't follow everything they see, but if they only seem to get examples of lame fads (which seems to be the case lately) they'll follow SOMETHING... and that will wind up being lame too.

Zeus - god of the history of leet speak. There will be a test on thursday.

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The fact is that 'toon', although inaccurate from many viewpoints, and even irritating to some people, has become a mainstream term, possibly because of the lighthearted connotations the term has.

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I disagree.

If that were the case, would we be able to have a cogent debate on the subject?

While I agree that most of the debate from the 'pro-toon' side IS similar to what you're saying... (as in... "hey, everyone else is doing it.. you dont' want to be SQUARE, do you? Comeon... the first one is free! ") I don't really buy it.

NOT everyone is doing it. I wouldnt' even say a majority of people do it. They may... but I don't think so. Now.. maybe in ten years when the current crop of kiddies grow up into full on leet speaking adults, (unless they outgrow that, which is a definate possibility) THEN it may be mainstream. But right now... it's just a slightly annoying thing that some people do, and other sigh and think to themselves "well, they probably just don't know any better".

Zeus - god of speaking all leet and stuff

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LOL is immature... there isn't much doubt in my mind about that. ..... a lot of leet speak like "lol", "ur"...

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LOL is leet speak and immature? Hardly; LOL is the accepted internet form to show amusement in type, that's not immaturity or leet speak. There's even a defined word for it, it's called an ACRONYM, maybe you've heard of it.

See, leet speak is using numbers for letters, or single character letters for entire words. IE U = you and R = are, if UR were to be equated to LOL then it would need to be YA, which obviously doesn't serve the same purpose.

Is FBI, CIA, radar, and laser leet speak as well? That doesn't seem correct to me at all. Therefore, LOL cannot be leet speak either.

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See, to make "laughing out loud" leet speak, we'd need to do something like "3l0h3l".

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You may want to keep reading past that first line, because you seem to have found offense in something that clearly wasnt' meant to be anything but explanatory, not offensive.

Zeus - god of weirdisms

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lol... Oh crap.. lol's not a taboo is it?

Yet?

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Well, I did an LOL and a ROFLMAO earlier and was told I was immature But, then again at my age, that might be a compliment!

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This leads me to an... interesting thought.

LOL is immature... there isn't much doubt in my mind about that. But I think often on the internet the word "maturity" is mistaken for "age" or "acting like a youth". On these webernets, maturity does not always mean that.


As an example, my father did some internet dating recently, and one of the women he chatted with used a whole hell of a lot of leet speak like "lol", "ur", and I'm sure if she were to play a game she'd call it a toon whether it looked like a charicature or not. My first impression was that she just wasn't very mature. But we're also talking about a 60 year old woman. I wasn't leaping to the impression that she acted like a child in real life... just a child on the internet. She wasn't very mature of a computer user. She wasn't seasoned. She was a novice.

Leet speak makes you look immature, yes, but not in physical age - it makes you look immature in regards to computer saavy. As if you don't know your way around these things we call the webernets tubes. And with the value that most people on an online community put on the computer and the internet, calling something by little kiddie names, or using computer kiddie talk just isn't very highly valued typically by those in the know.



Anyway, it had just occured to me that perhaps... in relation to the internet, "mature" doesn't always mean "aged" or "acts old".

Zeus - god of intentional misuse of words

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I just think it's hilarious that some people keep refering to 'right' or 'correct', when there is no right or wrong in using the terms char and toon. I think it's a tad silly to try and infer that your way is the right way. They are just terms used to refer to pixelated in-game persona. It really comes off as snobby that someone thinks their way is the 'right' way.

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Well, "right" and "wrong" can be seen as "accurate" or "innacurate". My character "Ensign Redshirt" is a character... that is an accurate description of him. To call him a cartoon is NOT an accurate description of him as his features are not exaggerated.

So while I agree that perhaps "right" and "wrong" are... misleading, in speaking linguistics you can often interchangable put in "accurate" and "not accurate" and such is appropriate in this case.

Zeus - god of realism

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People who make assumptions about another's use of legitimate verbiage in a conversation are more suspect of a lack of maturity than those who use an established term. I agree with the whole "neener-neener" description there. Trying to assault another's maturity for lack of a good argument is also suspect. What a foolhardy assumption to make... "People who use the word "toon" are probably immature." People who don't and label people who do "immature" are premature. You rush to judge. You know nothing about people because you have a silly tick that causes you a deep lack of respect for others. Unfortunate.

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Wow... almost thirty pages before someone said it, but it was finally said.

"I judge those who say they judge others for what they say to be bad".

It usually gets said... faster than this.

It's almost as if some people think that either speech is not a behavior, or that you can't adequately judge someone based on their behavior. Damn, what else do we have to judge people on? Superstion? The color of their tights? No.. I far prefer to judge someone based on their actions.

Speaking by the way... is an action.

Zeus - god of nomenclature

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still we spare ourselves the debate on any serious level because battling over harmless words is pretty much a melodramatic kind of social posturing that doesn't belong here.

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I think this is a very common misconception.

People often think that the opposing side of any argument is much more serious about the debate than their side of the argument is. It's rarely the case.

I don't think that many people take this very seriously at all. You don't get people yelling out "YOU STOLE MY CLOUDSONG AND SAID TOON!". It's mildly annoying, and pretty much stops there.

Of course, those that mildly annoy you don't look good in your eyes.. we judge the annoying as less worthy than we judge the non-annoying. But I doubt the OP is even really rabid about the issue. It's probably just something that he noticed and thought "what the hell" and made a post to see if anyone else thought it was weird too.



There's no battle here my friend... just different sides of a pretty harmless and very non-important debate. Now if we wanted a REALLY serious debate, we'd get into the life threatening issue of people using the shortcut "troller" instead of saying "controller"... Now THAT has cost people lives.

Zeus - god of perspective

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Having an opinion on something is fine. It's when someone goes up to a person that just said the word toon(bling), and telling him in his face he shouldn't be saying it, he should be saying character(money), seems close minded and arrogant.

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My point is that it's closed minded to think that the people who dont like something should just get over it. They may not like it for a reason. Even if that isn't YOUR reason, doesn't make it less valid. Many people don't like the term. Sticking your head in the sand and saying 'well, STOP hating the term" is closed minded.

and arrogance? Well, I see that on both sides of the debate. Many people on each side seem to think that everyone in the other side of the debate should stop whatever they're doing or feeling, because that way the problem would be gone and they won't have to do any effort themselves. THAT'S arrogance, and both sides are doing it. Both groups are saying "get over it, you have to accept what I like, but I don't have to accept what you like".



Personally... I can actually think of logical reasons to NOT use the term. how it may be inappropriate, etc... and I've yet to hear a reason that the word is superior to other words. I'm not saying that one group is right and one group is wrong, but if this were a competitive debate, the "pro toon" side hasn't seemed to try to make any actual compelling arguments. There just seems to be a consistant attitude of "haha.. you adults have to deal with us NOW, huh?" which seems an odd stance to take.



Oh... and I don't care for bling either... it sounds like an urban yokel. I don't know why anyone would want to sound like a yokel, urban or rural. (I'd rather be an out of touch old guy than an ignorant yokel)

A couple of years ago someone was using the word bling and i asked what it meant. The conversation went something like this:

me: Ok... I"ve heard this word bling... what is bling?
them: Well, if you buy something like a nice shirt, that is bling.
me: So bling would be clothing. My labcoat is bling?
them: No, that labcoat isn't worth anything.
me: So bling is expensive clothing?
them: Not just... jewlery can be bling too.
me: Ah, so anything expensive that you wear.
them: Well, other valuables are bling as well.
me: Ah! I understand. Bling is booty!
them: No, booty is totally different than bling. I would certainly hope someone wouldn't consider booty to be bling!
me: So gold peices, valuable objects, gems, jewlery, fine or rare clothings, expensive weaponry...
them: Right.
me: Booty!
them: No.. booty is a fine woman.
me: I would certainly hope someone wouldn't consider booty to be a fine woman.


It does seem to be a bit... behind the point to reuse slang, in a completely different form, before people stop using the first usage of the slang. (like booty or toon).

Zeus - god of confusion

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Take anime for example. It has developed it's own language and culture. Why not just adopt the word "cartoon" or "japaneese cartoon" instead of anime? Because the word cartoon simply doesn't fit.

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Yeah, and action figures aren't dolls ::rollseyes::

Anime is just a name someone came up with so they didn't feel so stupid about watching cartoons. A cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon no matter what you want to call it.

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No, I"m talking about QUALITATIVE differences. It doesn't matter if you presonally approve of WHY they came up with a new name for it. People came up with a new name for it for a reason. If the world was filled only with you, then sure, you can dismiss that. But since that's not the case, perhaps we'd best just stick to admitting that we live in a world filled with other people. And unless everytime you speak, you're talking only to yourself, these "other people" of which I speak are the target audience for the words you choose.



And you may want to keep reading the post... because no.. speed racer isn't a cartoon. It's an animated cartoon. A cartoon is a still image. An exaggerated caricature to be precise. And I'd definately consider anime to be exaggerated caricatures, with the disproportionate features of the images. An animated cartoon is an animated form of that.

So to be fair, perhaps it would be a "toon"... or rather, some mmos could rightly be called an "animated toon". but if you're going to shorten cartoon, I suppose you'll shorten "animated" as well, so "ani toon". And that's of course only for those mmos that actually use caricatures, such as world of warcraft. For the rest of the MMOs, which are the vast majority of them, that have realistic animation and characters, well, they're not really even animated cartoons, because they're not cartoons at all.

Zeus - god of reading

But you're ignoring a very obvious point... and you seem like you even know you're ignoring it.

Yes.... a car has many names. Most things in the english language do. But calling a car various things doesn't irritate the hell out of a lot of people. You know that. I know that. It's common knowledge.

Yes, words conjure different things in different minds. But in this case... we KNOW what images these words conjure in various minds, so why act like we don't? It's one thing to use a word that annoys people when you don't know it annoys people... but in this case, use the word toon and you know damned well what the effect is. It doesn't matter if these people are stuck up jerks... although I give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not going go to that sort of asinine leap of illogic. It doesn't matter if there is something wrong with them instead of you. (although it is much easier if we always pass the blame for problems we encounter).

The simple fact of the matter is.. if you use the word toon, you are using a word that you KNOW has certain effects. If you don't want those effects (not conveying your point effectively, insulting the game, annoying some people) then simply don't use the word.



Oh... and I agree with you on the word avatar. It's more appropriate than toon, but I still dont' care for the term. I can understand the idea behind it... the users are like onto gods as far as the play world goes (like the movie tron) so these characters are indeed the avatars that explore the world for us. That's the explanation... But I don't really feel the need to think of myself as a god in reality. On the other hand, it is more accurate of a word, and has less negative connotations than calling all characters toons, essentially saying they're caricatures.

Zeus - god of exaggerations

Oh... one more thing... I think the reason people don't like the word toon is quite simple. Because it does NOT connotate animated characters. It implies childish animated characters.

Take anime for example. It has developed it's own language and culture. Why not just adopt the word "cartoon" or "japaneese cartoon" instead of anime? Because the word cartoon simply doesn't fit. Yes, they are animated. However, there is a qualitative difference between warner brothers and anime. There is a difference in artistic style, and this is a big enough difference to be obvious to everyone.

Essentially, cartoons are commonly thought of as referring to animated drawings designed for children. If it's not designed for children, often other nomenclature is used. So... those people who don't like the word "toon".... aren't just having a stick up their respective butts. They simply think you're demeaning and insulting the game they enjoy, and don't care for it.




Oh... and just for the heck of it I looked up the word "cartoon"... and what I suspected is correct. It has nothing to do with animation. Actually those are called "animated cartoons". A cartoon is merely an unrealistic drawing - it has nothing to do with animation of any sort. The difference between a drawing and a cartoon seems to be of exaggeration and unrealistic style... caricature is often associated with it in the various definitions, as is humorous satire. And I'm not sure that CoH would qualify as even 'animated cartoon' since it is not based upon a lack of reality... in fact, just the opposite. I think WoW would qualify however. The characters themselves are merely caricatures, after all. (with the exception of the females, it's hard to make a caricature hot)

Zeus - god of disillusionment

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I use both terms, they mean the same to me. It's not like we don't know what the other is refering too when either term is used, they both serve the same purpose in conversation.

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I don't agree.

From what I can tell, there are two terms you can use. character and toon. The word character leads to a certain end - that everyone knows what you're talking about. That's pretty much all it leads to.

Toon, on the other hand, has a slightly different effect. It clearly annoys many people. It clearly makes some people think less of you for various reasons that don't really matter. It gets the point across as well, but it does appear (and you can tell with threads like this) to have other effects as well.



So... in choosing your words, perhaps the intent just doesn't matter sometimes. Sometimes the effect of words is more important than the intent, because the entire point of language is to express a point - a point that is supposed to carry with it certain connotations. And I think the people using the word "toon" are simply not expressing themselves well. Because the words they use carry connotations that I don't think they intend, therefore they are choosing the WRONG words.


For some audiences, I'm sure it's fine. But there seem to be a decent amount of people who don't respond well to the term. You can rationalize wanting to use the word all you want, but eventually you really need to look at the FUNCTION of a debated word. It doesn't matter if you agree with it. Your agreement over whether or not people SHOULD get upset over the word toon has no effect whatsoever on the reality that they do.

Zeus - god of function over form. At times.

As much as I hate to imply something as tired as "this horse is dead"... (which, the saying itself is a dead horse ironically enough)....

This has been discussed on several occasions before, and from what I can gather, there seem to be two camps. One says "usage of such lame internet slang ruins the environment of the internet"... and the other camp says "I use the word, I don't have a reason to use it, although I can come up with a rationalle if you wish".


AAAANNND.. that seems to be the whole debate. Some people hate it, and there really isn't a diametrically opposed side. No one seems to LOVE the phrase... but some people seem to use it on a whim or something. I suppose that makes sense however... For example... I tend to use the word "since" instead of "because".... but I don't really have a reason to do it. We often don't know, or even care why we use the words we do as long as we find them acceptable.


The only rational way to solve this disagreement is to pick an independant third party. Someone intelligent. Important. Someone named after a god. Someone with a son named Khan. You know.. that kind of person is always good to settle debates like this. Then just ask that person how the world should proceed and then everyone can just do as that person (whoever that person happens to be) says.

I think that would make everything all better.

Zeus - god of suggestive remarks

Hm... that worked pretty well, thanks. Now I can only hope that their video compression specifications aren't TOO strict this year when they start the film festival in a couple of months.

Zeus - god of appreciation