Defense_Options

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No need to step outside the set.

StoneSkin (6slots)+ Granite (1 resist 5 defense) gives you 90 resist with +1 SOs.

That gives you 90 resist S/L same as Inv and better resists to everything else then Inv. Excuse me how is that more defense dependent then Inv? Sorry your simply wrong. Inv has more defense and less resist then a granite tank how is a granite tank more defense based?

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ARGH! LEARN TO READ!

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Yes you might try that.

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I think the point was that you can slot up Granite Armor for resistance, or defense, but not both, so if you slot up Granite Armor for 90% resists, it won't have a lot of defense, making it not really a "defense-based" set. If you slot up GA heavy for defense, then you can't get 90% resists.

So while Stone as a set can be heavy resistances and heavy defense, no individual stone tanker can really be both at the same time, so his original statement "No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called 'defense-based'" suggests that there does not exist a set that allows a specific hero to both have 90% resists and nevertheless claim to get the majority of its mitigation from defense ("defense-based").

Of course, this brings up the invincibility argument, but that, most agree, is a special case.

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Actually even if you slotted Granite all defense stone could pull a 90 resist to S/L, or really close if desired. Stoneskin offeres 12.5 base S/L resist its a passive and does stack with Granite and if they wanted they could have tough also. That would give you 77.5 resist with stone skin with even SOs. One slot in granite would bump you to 87.5, or tough would cap you. Either way you'd have 5 or 6 slots in granite for defense.

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And yet, a) you've stepped outside the set, and b) you're still not receiving most of your mitigation from defense, which Arcanaville correctly pegged as my probably obtusely-made point.

A character with 90% resists isn't really "defense-based", in the sense that defense matters more than resistance or health regeneration for damage mitigation. It's fun hyperbole to pretend that Invulnerability is a "defense-based set" now, but it isn't actually true, and that should be kept in mind when asking for debuff resistance in it.

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No need to step outside the set.

StoneSkin (6slots)+ Granite (1 resist 5 defense) gives you 90 resist with +1 SOs.

That gives you 90 resist S/L same as Inv and better resists to everything else then Inv. Excuse me how is that more defense dependent then Inv? Sorry your simply wrong. Inv has more defense and less resist then a granite tank how is a granite tank more defense based?

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well, other games tend to get harder as you go up in level. For regen, CoH does not, so they had to build in slow nerfs over time damage to add challenge!

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Indeed, the stupidest kind of challenge I've ever heard of. You gain levels to get stronger then just decay in power over time thereafter. YAHOO!!! SIGN ME UP!!

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meh. i'm still pretty uber(notso much as when i started my regen in I3, but still rockin') states has said the power balancing is just about done...

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I do believe we've heard that a few times now....after I3 to be sure.

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Granite armor is only 50% resistance. Sure, you can slot it up,


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Huh....Well no Inv power comes with 90 resist to S/L either.....guess you could slot them up or just pick more of them...

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I think the point was that you can slot up Granite Armor for resistance, or defense, but not both, so if you slot up Granite Armor for 90% resists, it won't have a lot of defense, making it not really a "defense-based" set. If you slot up GA heavy for defense, then you can't get 90% resists.

So while Stone as a set can be heavy resistances and heavy defense, no individual stone tanker can really be both at the same time, so his original statement "No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called 'defense-based'" suggests that there does not exist a set that allows a specific hero to both have 90% resists and nevertheless claim to get the majority of its mitigation from defense ("defense-based").

Of course, this brings up the invincibility argument, but that, most agree, is a special case.

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Actually even if you slotted Granite all defense stone could pull a 90 resist to S/L, or really close if desired. Stoneskin offeres 12.5 base S/L resist its a passive and does stack with Granite and if they wanted they could have tough also. That would give you 77.5 resist with stone skin with even SOs. One slot in granite would bump you to 87.5, or tough would cap you. Either way you'd have 5 or 6 slots in granite for defense.

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All but Psi...interesting. Quick question...how come PSI wasn't included?

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Because then powersets that have a psi-weakness like invul would stack up on psi-defense powerpools.

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Actually still can the pools stack with each other. They are all postional. They did not stack with TH or Inv but those two powers don't give Psi defense.

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How many flame posts do you think I'd get if i posted in that thread suggesting that MoG provide resists and defense to all?

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Its ok I post that stuff in the scrapper issues thread. No one seems to like the idea though....hehehe

Try it and see.

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Hmmno toxic resists either. Shouldn't that be in mog if not psi. Makes thematic sence for the damage type at least...

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I has toxic resist. Just not toxic defense. I do believe they never got "toxic defense" actually working. Basically it would seem from TH and Invinc also that any power that gives typed defense does not give toxic. Could be an issue programming wise.

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Granite armor is only 50% resistance. Sure, you can slot it up,


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Huh....Well no Inv power comes with 90 resist to S/L either.....guess you could slot them up or just pick more of them...

By the way it is now offical that MoG does not provide Psi defense. Oh and toxic too. Cuppa just posted this.

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Tanker
Invulnerability: Invincibility (SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Invulnerability: Tough Hide (SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Ice Armor: Frozen Armor (SMASH/LETHAL)
Ice Armor: Wet Ice (SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Ice Armor: Glacial Armor (ENERGY/NEG)
Ice Armor: Energy Absorption (SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Stone Armor: Rock Armor (SMASH/LETHAL)
Stone Armor: Crystal Armor (ENERGY/NEG)
Stone Armor: Mineral Armor (PSY)
Stone Armor: Granite Armor (SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)

Defender
Storm Summoning: Steamy Mist (MELEE/RANGE)
Dark Miasma: Shadowfall (MELEE/RANGE)
Empathy: Fortitude(SMASH/LETHAL/ENERGY/NEG/FIRE/PSY)
Force Field: Personal Force Field (BASE)
Force Field: Deflection Bubble (SMASH/LETHAL)
Force Field: Insulation Bubble (FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Force Field: Dispersion Bubble (AOE/PSY/SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)

Controller
Storm Summoning: Steamy Mist (MELEE/RANGE)
Dark Miasma: Shadowfall (MELEE/RANGE)
Empathy: Fortitude(SMASH/LETHAL/ENERGY/NEG/FIRE/PSY)
Force Field: Personal Force Field (BASE)
Force Field: Deflection Bubble (SMASH/LETHAL)
Force Field: Insulation Bubble (FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Force Field: Dispersion Bubble (AOE/PSY/SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)
Illusion Control: Group Invisibility (MELEE/RANGE)
Illusion Control: Superior Invisibility (MELEE/RANGE)
Controller Epic: Cold Mastery: Frozen Armor (SMASH/LETHAL)
Controller Epic: Psionic Mastery: Indomitable Will (PSY)
Controller Epic: Stone Mastery: Rock Armor (SMASH/LETHAL)


Scrapper
Super Reflexes: Agility (RANGE)
Super Reflexes: Focused Senses (RANGE)
Super Reflexes: Lucky (AOE)
Super Reflexes: Evasion (AOE)
Super Reflexes: Dodge (MELEE)
Super Reflexes: Focused Fighting (MELEE)
Super Reflexes: Elude (MELEE/RANGE/AOE)
Dark Armor: Cloak of Darkness (MELEE/RANGE)
Regen: MoG (SMASH/LETHAL/FIRE/COLD/ENERGY/NEG)


Blaster
Devices: Cloaking Device (MELEE/RANGE)
Blaster Epic : Cold Mastery: Frozen Armor (SMASH/LETHAL)

Warshade
Secondary: Shadow Cloak (MELEE/RANGE)

Power Pool
Leadership: Maneuvers (MELEE/RANGE)
Leadership: Vengeance (MELEE/RANGE)
Leaping: Combat Jumping (MELEE/RANGE)
Flight: Hover (MELEE/RANGE)
Concealment: Stealth (MELEE/RANGE)
Concealment: Grant Invisibility (MELEE/RANGE)
Concealment: Invisibility (MELEE/RANGE)


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You can laugh but I know a deli just like what you are discribing here.

Harold's Deli in Edison NJ, yes where the guy who invented the light bulb lived and worked.

16 Oz sandwhiches and all. I could tell you the size of thing but you would never believe me nor really grasp it until you saw it for your self. One piece of cake is the hight of my forarm, no kidding at all. They do however provide doggy bags and encourage sharing with a friend.

Sad day when my job moved, what a place. Oh and their egg and bacon sandwhich had 18 slices of bacon. Man that was good eating.

Yeah that's me. I just think wouldn't it be cool if a hero did this... and then I go try and make a hero that can. Or my pal will call and say "What do you think of a Cold based SuperGroup?" And off we go to try and make one. Actually sad about Croatoa being so perfect for me 50, Celtic Blade would fit there so well. And I think my saddest day was when I out leveled running the Streets of DA to fight the evil magic all around. I only made 50 because my SG stayed so tight and we just had such a ball playing together.

One thing to keep in mind about the number of 50s is many people, like me have one and then about 8 alts on each server. So yes I have a 50 but I have a ton of non-50s that make 8% actually seem likely to me. Even on my home server I only have one post 40 and that's my 50. Everyone else is all over level wise. I come up with a story for a hero and I make him. I don't always play him far but I do have like 4 or 5 servers filled with sub level 10 guys.

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Sure, there's still been nerfs, but I suspect they weren't as severe as they were going to be had the playerbase not caught the problems with the developers' test environment.


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I'll let you all take this where you will so I'll just point out that not a single thing changed after finding out their internal test server had a horrible bug on it.

Actually I take that back, they did end up nerfing MoG between that time and the Issue going Live.

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And yet just because the test enviroment when they did the initial tests was borked, does not mean that when they re-tested with a fixed enviroment Regen still wasn't bad.

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But after the first test proved to be done in a bork enviroment only after finally posting a vid to prove their point wouldn't a vid to show the enviroment was fine in the second tests have been fair?

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I could have sworn they changed the degree of the nerfage


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You would be right. They included nerfing MoG as well.

They also stated that Regen was doing things others couldn't, such as taking on large herds of +4s and such. Then they ran tests not against regen without the change but with it. And it came in second amoung the scrapper sets using their kind of weird builds. Problem is they never showed anywhere that regen was doing anything others could not. Unfortunately every time they said regen could do this (say herd) regen players would say wait so can (list your build, though tanks, controllers, and defenders were often used). It was not a thread regen ever had a chance in. That was my biggest issue with I4. They asked for input but then I totally felt from their answers they never actually wanted to hear it.

You know funniest part is my Inv tank in I4 herded up 22 +7s including one boss and did so with Temp Inv off just to prove Invincibility was way over powered in my eyes. I ran a ton of tests on that and even invited people to see how crazy you could be with Invinc. All this was true while the devs were telling us regen herding 20 +4s was over powered and unequalled by others. Heck in I5 I have twice gather groups of 10+ +7s and been fine ten minutes later. (By the way actually arresting +7s is tedious work, takes my tank about 10 minutes per foe so generally I did not bother but I did once against a group of 11 still at the last one (I4) I have to run as without the defense bonus from Invinc I am meat. In I5 I get in serious trouble at about 4 left. I only do this for testing and I can't hold the aggro at all so when pals come to watch they need to keep back or I will loose aggro and they will have to run about a bit. Taunt works for about a 2 count on a +7.)

With I5 my issue is States statement about end issues being the reason for IH nerfage, I then look at CoV's regen and see that he lacks Quick Recovery. Scrapper Regen could pay for IH end cost but obviously Cov's regen would struggle mightily trying to. I do feel he should have been more honest about that, there was no need to call it anything but a nerf designed to make regen in CoV work. That wouldn't make me thrilled but at least it would feel more honest then what we got.

I don't think States lied per-say but he did dodge the truth as much as he could. I don't think he would lie but he has to be as vague as possible when they aren't really ready to present the whole picture and sometimes that can come off as dishonest I guess is my point. It does tend to forester the "don't trust him" feelings and its like politicians.

But all that said and all my feelings about thing aside calling him a liar isn't right. It never is. He says something outright very rarely so I tend to take him at his word when he does. If later some proof comes out otherwise well that's that but that proof can't be conjecture and happenstance it's not fair to do that.

It's a good thing to add S/L into the mix and all and I like that but....Inv has actually S/L resist and its the one strength of the set what they need defense for is everything else and that's exactly what they aren't getting. If my Inv tank takes hover it seems fair to me to expect that my 2.5 def actually stacks with my TH and Invinc. Espically my TH because I need it most when closing once in there my Invinc will do all I need. Its not much I know but if I was playing a Fire/ tank I could count on my hover's def actually working in all situations not just against S/L.

Yeah the general forums are bad sometimes but the for fun one is out right hostile if you don't praise the game and worship States. I have fun starting trouble there when someone says something absolutely untrue I tend to call them on it and watch as many come to defend something they all know is wrong. Then I cut and save the posts to use against them next time. Lots of fun.

My Avatar is my PeaceBringer. No reason just my PeaceBringer is Defense Options merged with a squid. Old Defense Options is a Rad/Ene defender that well I stopped playing long ago. Still like the idea but the build is a mess. So when I made my PeaceBringer I used the old back story from D_O. His name is Knight Options actually and he actually is now the same level as old D_O. By the way my regen is my 50, D_O is still 27 was the day I start my 50 at 1 and still is 570 hours later(how long Celtic Blade took to go from 1 to 50).

Consume is nice but doesn't make any sense in a regen line. Conserve Power does but I'm hoping against a change in QR.

On a happy thought wouldn't it be nice to have some powers fixed.

For me MoG could use a fix and wouldn't it be nice if resilience got a bump in some way?

I honestly think since as people have said all resist powers grant resistance to resist debuffs shouldn't all defense powers do the same?

MoG for instance. It is clearly a defense power. Yes it has resistacne but you pay for it in health, actually pretty much even up 71% resist to all -psi for 75% drop in health. Not only that MoG removes your other defense as a regen healing.

Well to tell the truth my tank is only 13 so I can't have health and my defense powers are as slotted as I can. I had barrage and bonesmasher both single slotted until this change so I moved those slots to my attacks. Generally I agree I would have slotted defenses but I really didn't have any I thought could use them yet. My Icer is young.

I'm really on the fence about the fighting pool. I don't want it, as I don't think any tank should need it but then I want my Icer to be a tank and well your numbers and reports from my two Icer pals has me worried that as you said Icers are better now as scrankers and well I have scrappers don't need to make a half-a$$ed one.

I guess I'll let him sit and think on it. Until I have decided I might as well break 40 with one of my other tanks.

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Hey since weave does not help much does that reduce the benifit of the fighting pool enough to make it not worth taking or is it still a good idea.

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Weave doesn't just "not help much". It doesn't stack with Ice Armors at all....

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True but it does help very little. It does work against Psi so that's a little. I know it stinks for all tanks now, even more so for Ice.

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Not that there isn't an issue but what are you using for Inv? 14 foes, 10 foes, 1 foe? Just wondering.

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There are 16 mobs in the comparison, but the point is more the net loss, not the comparison numbers themselves.

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I saw the numbers and was really worried not seeing any foe numbers. At first I assumed against one then couldn't figure out how an Inv scrapper was doing so well. Sorry. But yeah Ice has been snuck once again.

::States holding damage debuff over Ice tankers head::
Ice tanker looks up "Is that for me. Yes great some help."
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Ice tanker found doubled over in pain by a wandering Regenner "Hey man let me help you."

::Ice tanker stand wobbly after Regenner helped him to his feet::

"Whatever happened Pal?" Regenner asks.

"I was reaching for the damage debuff and got groin kicked by States with a nerf to the same power that's makes it worse then it was before the buff." Ice tanker explains.

Regenner nods. "Learn to wear a cup. Oh and always step away from getting "helped" by States."

What size damage debuff would get you closer to where you think they should be? (Just asking would be helpful if we had a number to throw their way when asked.)

Just as a side note. My Ice/EM tanker is actually a tad bit better ... I had 6 slots in Wet Ice before and now get those back for attacks.

Hey since weave does not help much does that reduce the benifit of the fighting pool enough to make it not worth taking or is it still a good idea.

So many questions sorry.

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No set that allows 90% resistance to smashing and lethal, and a Dull Pain power, can legitimately be called "defense-based".


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Huh....Granite Armor friend. 90 resist to everything -psi, Earth's Embrace a better form of Dull Pain, Rooted a regen rate compairable to Intergration (only behind by the 50% non-enhanceable part). Granite armor itself offers a substantial resistance to defdebuffs.

If Granite can do that and get that resistance can you now explain why Inv that lost all its non-S/L resists can't?

Not that there isn't an issue but what are you using for Inv? 14 foes, 10 foes, 1 foe? Just wondering.

Dull Pain is the abvious target too, so is QR actually. Thought it could be as simple as dropping the unenhancable part of Int. I'm still not sure what the need to drop it in I5 was. I really can't believe that 50% was that big a deal.

Has anyone run any numbers compairing the sets recently?

Of course take QR away and what's left of regen? Its big pull is its lack of down time. Do it's defenses really stack up well against the other sets if end isn't an issue anymore?