DarkCurrent

Because there's no way to boost intang duration, it will only ever have a 4 sec duration in PvP.

Meanwhile, sure the other control powers' durations can be resisted. But that sword cuts both ways. Unless I misunderstand the PvP mechanic (can you blame anyone?) all other controls can have their 4 sec base duration boosted either by slotting, powerboost, IO set bonuses, or Megalomaniac accolade. So it's quite possible to get longer than 4 seconds.

The rest of your argument centers around being different. Uniqueness is great, but what about utility? Is DS good at what it does? Sure. Is it one of just a few powers that does what it does? Sure.

But how useful is it?

Here are the data from my other 3 lvl 50 dominators that I compared the differences in performance from I14 to the I15 revamp. I’m including them here as both a reference point for the /psi analysis discussed earlier in this thread, and for completeness. Overall, I’m now calling this study ‘The Effect of the I15 Revamp on Lvl 50 Dominator Performance’.

*Some of the changes show apparently drastic shifts in usage. However, most of these are due to the power going from barely used to used a little. An example is Mass Hypnosis for the mind/thorn dominator. To sort out the ‘real’ changes from the faux ones, make sure and look at the Power Usage Comparison data as well as the change data.


1) Earth/Fire/Mace

Power Usage Change
Endurance Expenditure Change
Damage Output Change

Power Use Comparison
Endurance Expenditure Comparison
DPM Comparison
DPE Comparison
DPH Comparison


2) Grav/Elec/Mu

Power Usage Change
Endurance Expenditure Change
Damage Output Change

Power Use Comparison
Endurance Expenditure Comparison
DPM Comparison
DPE Comparison
DPH Comparison


3) Mind/Thorn/Mace

Power Usage Change
Endurance Expenditure Change
Damage Output Change

Power Use Comparison
Endurance Expenditure Comparison
DPM Comparison
DPE Comparison
DPH Comparison


I’ll break down each dominator’s performance shift and summarize the entire study once I've had time to really look it over.

Found some interesting tidbits of info that help build the case that Whips will be coming to dominators sometime in the future:

1) old post by Statesman from CoV Beta when he was asking players about ideas for new powersets. His example for doms was whips. So back in 2005, it was on the whiteboard. It was some time after this I remember him or another dev posting that they'd wanted whips and chains, but the animation was too difficult or some such thing.

2) The Praetorian version of Ms. Liberty is.... yep, you know it, Dominatrix (what's that on your hip, girl?). Dominatrix's powers also happen to be grav control. Her minions carry... yep, energy whips (look at their list of powers above Dominatrix's entry). Oh, and what zone is coming out with Going Rogue? Yep, Praetoria.

3) The new MM demon summoning set will apparently use whips somewhere in the animations from what BaBs said on Twitter. Also, GR will introduce Desdemona as the demon summoning MM gone good. Take a look at her picture. If that's not someone who's into whips and chains, I don't know who is.

I got me some heavies.

Okay, just tested the pet stats thing. Yes, HeroStats does record some of their numbers! It's a bit sketchy, though and can get confusing if you don't know what you're looking for as pseudo pets numbers are also recorded.

I didn't have my pet stats showing up in my chat windows as it's not the default and I don't play MMs.

Too bad I didn't realize this before my tests!

Hmm... i'll have to look into that, Norbby. I know that HeroStats used to not record pet stats because the game didn't report them. It's possible both were added in the last few months and I just haven't paid attention.

If you're right, then the only thing I'd have to do is make sure I'm logging the pet numbers with one of my chat channels and that HS is looking for them.

How many of the 6 who started are still logged onto the ISF? We were down to 4 when I logged and I suggested we stay in the SF to formulate a plan to take down Romi and his nicti.

I was thinking we should load up with some Shivans and HVAS, and maybe some rockets, then whomp on Romi.

Any other ideas? Pulling him and then immobing works pretty well, but we need to boost our DPS to take out his separated nicti. Thus, I was thinking the EB pets.

...read this.

Hey, SC,

You linked to the wrong thread of mine that Castle responded to. It's here. Castle's message (15th post) is still there as of tonight.

I'll be adding some more to it tomorrow I think (I have my mind/thorn and grav/elec data done, but I'm hoping to get the Earth/Fire complete as well), so don't make too strong of a conclusion yet. Some of the doms have improved a good deal. I think the main drag on the 11% number was from the lack of improvement by the fire/psi. However, read through my explanation for that and I think you'll see that I16 might very well make you happy about a fire/psi dom's prospects.

I presume the devs have way more tools for measuring performance than players do. I imagine they have access to every available stat and then some. I mean certainly the game runs the same kind of numbers on pet attacks as with players', it's just that it doesn't report them to us.

However, even without the specific pet data, you could get some decent information on MM performance using HeroStats.

Off the top of my head, you can compare:

1. infamy and/or xp gain (how fast are you killing foes and clearing missions?)
2. injuries you sustained (how much incoming damage are you taking?)
3. number of pet summonings (useful if pets keep getting killed or are tough as nails)
4. amount of healing you do (are you and pets taking a lot of damage?)
5. inspiration use (are you feeding your pets a lot of purples, greens and oranges as opposed to reds, yellows?)
6. your personal attack usage (do you have time to fire your attacks because pets are steamrolling, or are you using them as a last resort because your pets just got wiped out?)
7. your buff/debuff usage (are you spending more time on offense or defense?)

All in all, that's not a bad lineup of stats. It'd tell you a lot about what you, the MM, are doing if that's your main question

If you want to know what individual pets are doing, then there are 2 ways I can think to accomplish that:

First, record and review video/demos to figure out pet activity. I think you could get some decent info out of that, especially if your MM does NOT attack. Then, you'd be able to see what pets are doing what damage and how often. It'd be painstaking to go back and forth on those videos though, and you'd have to handwrite most of the stats while you're doing so.

Second, you could use HeroStats but run mission sets where you compare different levels of summonings:
Mission Set 1: MM and no pets
Mission Set 2: minion pets only
Mission Set 3: lieutenant pets only
Mission Set 4: boss pet only
Mission Set 5: pet combo 1 (minion +lieu)
Mission Set 6: pet combo 2 (minion +boss)
Mission Set 7: pet combo 3 (lieu +boss)
Mission Set 8: pet combo 4 (min +lieu + boss)

The overall data would then tell you how much each pet affects your baseline numbers, and then how each combo synergizes with you and one another.

But that'd be a heck of a lot of testing. And it'd tell you only about a single MM. You'd then have to repeat the tests with other MMs that have identical buff sets to be able to say, "yeah, robots are better than thugs because the lieutenant pets do A, B, C as measured by a boost in my performance in X, Y, Z areas".

I tremble in pain just thinking about the number crunching that'd take.

I compared these 2 /psi doms in 6 major areas:

Power Activations – what damage powers/categories did they use and how often under the I15 revamp conditions? They were both affected by the changes the same, weren’t they?

Target Hits – sure power activations can be similar, but what about what’s most important… did you hit and how many? If maps and mob sizes are similar enough, then there should be little difference between the 2 doms.

Change in Power Use – both doms use the same /psi assault powers and the same basic tactics, so shouldn’t they have changed their usage of powers in similar ways from I14 to I15?

Change in Endurance Expenditure – as with the power usage change, shouldn’t they be spending endurance in the same ways as they adjust from I14 to I15?
Change in DPE – if builds, maps, mobs and tactics were similar, shouldn’t the change in DPE from I14 to I15 be similar?

Change in DPH – as with the DPE changes, I’d expect these numbers to be similar for the single target attacks. AoE attacks will depend on how many targets were hit, though and that depends on a number of factors like terrain, mob size, control ability, targeting, character position, etc.

Looking at the power activation data, both dominators used their single target holds more than any other damaging attack after the I15 revamp. Of the seven attacks analyzed, the ice/psi used six of them more than the fire/psi, yet both dominators finished with nearly identical IPH ratings. The data suggest the ice/psi was able to close the ‘gap’ with the fire/psi. But the gap from where? Both doms used their bread and butter PSW attack less than with I14. And both doms increased their other attacks to compensate. So why more for the ice/psi? And did this lead to the ice/psi’s increased performance gain?

My answer is that the fire/psi had hit a performance ceiling already before the I15 revamp. She was already capped at the IPH max on these missions at this difficulty setting. That explains why this character saw virtually no increase in IPH from I14 to I15 while not only did the ice/psi dom improve, but the other 3 dominators tested all improved with the revamp.

What sort of cap am I referring to? I liken it to a prize fighter, who, at the peak of performance, is able to knock out their opponent with a single punch (this is analogous to about 2000 DPM). It doesn’t matter if this fighter gets stronger (>2000 DPM). They can’t knock out an opponent with less than one punch. Meanwhile, the ice/psi dominator was also a prize fighter, but not quite as good (1700 DPM) as the fire/psi. Therefore, she used to take 2 punches to knock out the same opponent. With I15, the ice/psi got stronger (2000 DPM) and reduced that fight to a single punch. She is now the equivalent of the fire/psi. She, too, has hit the earning cap of approximately 2 million IPH.

But why does the cap exist? Shouldn’t more damage = more earning. Well yes, more damage does = more potential, but the earning is capped at THESE SETTINGS. That’s because regardless of how much DPM a character can throw out, it is still limited by how fast their powers animate, how many foes are standing in front of it and how long it takes to travel from one mob to the next. Prior to I15, the fire/psi dom could activate X powers and defeat a mob. Even with the I15 boost, she still needed X powers because X was enough to defeat the mob. The ice/psi dominator used to need X + Y. Now she, too, only needs X because Y was included with the I15 revamp.

The evidence for this comes mostly from the AoE powers. First, when you look at the usage of 2 AoEs (Drain Psyche and Ball Lightning) that were untouched or minimally touched by the I15 revamp, there is virtually no difference between the I14 and I15 numbers (Power Sink doesn’t contradict this conclusion because in my opinion its usage decreased due to an increase in Domination’s usage with the increases in single target attacks). For DP, the fire/psi’s usage changed +3% and the ice/psi’s usage -2%. For BL, the fire/psi’s usage changed +5% and the ice/psi’s usage +9%. This indicates that both doms’ standard opening attack chain of AoE Control > PSW > Ball Lightning > DP did not alter significantly from I14 to I15.

Second, when looking at PSW, the nerf to its recharge lowered its usage significantly and increased the usage of single target attacks as previously discussed. The result was that PSW went from being fired every 25 seconds to every 37 seconds by the fire/psi while it went from every 20 seconds to every 27 seconds by the ice/psi.

The effect of this change in power usage resulted in the IPH earning rates. Looking at the I14 data, the fire/psi dominator was the top earner with 2.06 million IPH. Meanwhile, the ice/psi was the 2nd fastest earner with 1.80 million IPH. After the I15 revamp, the fire/psi only increased 1% to 2.07 million IPH while the ice/psi jumped 17% to 2.10 million IPH.

My first assumption was that the difference in performance gains was connected to the greater frequency of PSW’s use by the ice/psi with I15. However, that CANNOT be the reason because the fire/psi was clearly better during I14 when even back then she used PSW less frequently, and furthermore she’s seeing no drop in performance despite using it even less now.

So instead, I asked the question why would the fire/psi dom be using PSW less anyway? Both doms’ PSW is nearly equally slotted for damage and recharge. Both use it as a staple part of their attack chain. The only explanation I could come up with that fit the data was that the fire/psi didn’t NEED to use PSW more. Mobs were dying fast enough without it, whereas the ice/psi did need to use PSW more to kill the same mobs.

So where does the fire/psi’s extra damage come from? Most assuredly Hot Feet and Fire Imps. Those two powers are putting out more damage than the ice/psi’s 4x damage proc’d Arctic Air and Jack Frost. Not a huge amount more, about 10 - 15% extra though.

Looking at the Hit Data supports this hypothesis as well. These data show that overall the ice/psi actually hit more targets with 6 of her 7 damaging attacks than the fire/psi. Most significant is the difference between PSW hits. The ice/psi dom hit 31% more targets with PSW than the fire/psi. This is a large difference despite both doms having similar accuracies, playstyles, tactics and builds. As a result of that, one would guess that the ice/psi should be earning more IPH.

However, if you consider the ‘need’ option as stated above, it fits with the idea that the fire/psi dom did not NEED to use PSW as much. That she was able to get more damage from other sources like HF and Imps to compensate.

Taking all this information together, I envision the scenario is like this:

A Fire/Psi dominator sees a group of 5 mobs ahead. She opens with Flashfire and Fire Cages. Imps charge in and start attacking. She follows them in, hitting PSW, BL and DP. She decides what power to use next and likely skips PSW because 3 of the 5 mobs are already dead. So she switches to single target attacks and finishes the battle as the imps and hot feet melt more foes.

Meanwhile, an Ice/Psi dominator sees a similar group of 5 mobs. She opens with Flash Freeze or Ice Slick, then charges in. Jack follows and focuses his attacks on a single foe. The dom uses PSW, BL and DP. She decides what power to use next. Because all 5 mobs are still standing, or maybe 4, she uses a couple ST attacks while her AoEs recharge. PSW is recharged, so she uses it again. Maybe her damage procs fire and help kill someone. Maybe Jack has finished his target and is beating on another. Either way, she has to use a couple more single target attacks unti the mobs are all dead.

Now along comes the I15 revamp. Same scenarios as above. The fire/psi dom is killing mobs as fast as before. However, now the ice/psi dom is dropping her mobs even faster. As fast as the fire/psi. Now they’re both moving from mob to mob at the same speed. End result: fire/psi sees no change as she’s already at performance cap. Ice/Psi improves, hitting the performance cap.

The only question remaining for me is what will happen when I16 is released and I can increase the difficulty setting and raise the ceiling for these dominators?

I already posted the links to the results a few posts up, so I’ll just summarize what I learned:


According to the power usage data, the I14 version of this dominator used Char, PSW and Fire Cages as her top 3 powers. That’s because PSW had a fast recharge and did a ton of damage. Combined with Fire Cages, Hot Feet and Fire Imps, nothing lived long enough for the single target attacks to be that necessary.

With the revamp, the top 3 powers used are now Char, Psi Dart, and PSW. Fire Cages, Mental Blast, Mind Probe and Subdue are all relatively close in usage and not far out of 3rd place. Fire Cages and PSW were used about 25% less while Dart rose 104% and Mental Blast increased 73%. As with the ice/psi dom, DESPITE being used less PSW’s total endurance cost actually increased 21% from I14 to I15 leading to a 56% drop in its DPE as well. The nerf to its damage and range also decreased its DPH (damage per hit) by 19%.

The ST attacks of Dart, MB, Subdue, Mind Probe are greater parts of the attack chain now. From what I’ve see with these 2 /psi doms, it’s critical to slot MB and Dart well to maximize their increased usage.

As with the ice dom, this fire dom had an increased reliance on AoE control as evidenced by a 27% increase in Cinders. This is most likely due to PSW’s decreased availability as a semi-reliable AoE stun with its longer recharge and shorter range. Before I15, this dominator could either lead with Flash Fire if it was recharged, or simply eat a luck inspiration and then run into a mob with PSW and Drain Psyche. Now, when FF and PSW are down, Cinders becomes Plan C.

When looking at the endurance data, I’m again amazed to see the increases in the end use from psi dart and mental blast. As with the ice/ps dominator, this is due to a combination of both powers having their end costs boosted, and their greater usage after PSW’s nerf.

Again, I have to wonder if the rebalancing of the /psi set took into account the overall effect that PSW nerfing would have. Yet again there are large discrepancies between MB and Psi Dart’s DPH and DPE numbers. Both powers are doing more damage, boosting their DPH 93 and 75% respectively, but their DPE’s rose only half as much (53 and 30%). Compare those increases to Subdue and Mind Probe, where the /psi dominator is getting much more equal boosts in DPH and DPE. Some of this can be offset by improved slotting, but honestly where are the slots going to come from? And furthermore, I’m going to have to rely on IOs to even out the differences between these four powers (something the game is supposed to not be balanced for).

Overall endurance consumption was up 9% with a slight increase in DPE (7%) as compensation. However, this dominator saw ZERO increase in DPM, which explains why her IPH earning only rose 1%.

Interestingly, despite spending more endurance with the I15 changes, this dominator actually used her endurance boosting powers (drain psyche + power sink) LESS. I believe this is because she was able to activate Domination more often. And that was a result of having to use more attacks to get the missions complete. And that of course, was due to the nerfage of PSW. It’s an odd twisted chain of events, don’t you think? I can’t figure out if Castle and the boys were that wise or just that lucky.

Another interesting development is that following PSW’s reduction in effectiveness, it dropped from this dominator’s #1 damage power to #2. What’s the new #1? Well if you look at raw damage output, it’s Hot Feet. Yep, the PB AoE control power now does more total damage than any of this dom’s other powers. Crazy isn’t it? It was always doing a large amount of damage (second place in I14), but now that PSW has a longer recharge, mobs spend more time in the slow roast of Hot Feet. Two other interesting tidbits about HF is that it has the highest DPE of any power before and after I15 (meaning it’s well worth the cost of running it nonstop so long as you slot endurance reduction). Meanwhile, HF has the 2nd LOWEST DPH. How is that possible? Because it does damage in pulses. Small amounts with each hit, but ones that really add up based on the DPE and DPM numbers. Of course that’s only if you have keep the mobs inside its radius. Which is why Fire Cages along with PB and targeted AoEs are so critical to a fire/ dominator’s success. Long story short, make sure you take and slot up HF.

Lastly, Fire Cages saw a decrease in its usage with I15. Before I ran the tests that wouldn’t have made sense to me considering that PSW was going to be used less. Why wouldn’t you use cages more and get more out of them in return? Well I think the answer is precisely because PSW is used less. Tactically speaking, I would always run into mobs, then spam PSW and cages. I’d toss in the odd single target attack, but always I’d hit the AoEs. Now with I15, I charge in, hit PSW and cages. But now, PSW isn’t right back up to spam again. So I’d switch over to single target powers: Mind Probe, Subdue, Dart, Mental Blast. Then, PSW was up again. So I’d hit it. By then, mobs were dead. No need for more cages.


A different strategy, but the same results. Which leads me to the comparison with the ice/psi dominator in an attempt to answer my first question of why the big difference in IPH between the 2 dominators?

Okay, I finished analyzing the data for the fire/psi and then the 2 /psi doms side-by-side. Here's what I've got (some of this is recap for those new to the discussion):

From the original analysis, I found average lvl 50 dominator solo performance increased 11% based on reward rate (infamy per hour). My ice/psi/mu dom had one of the largest improvements (+17% IPH), while my fire/psi/mu showed virtually no change (+1% IPH). I wondered why this was the case when both characters were similarly built and enhanced, as well as played using similar tactics and were tested using virtually the same missions. Why should an ice/psi dom improve so much, while a fire/psi dom didn’t improve at all? After all, the changes applied by the dom revamp should have boosted both equally at the base level and at the specific /psi powers (both doms use the exact same /psi assault powers).

Before I show the comparative data, I want to summarize the fire/psi numbers. For the record, the I14 tests took this character 55 min to defeat 262 foes with 701 damaging power activations, while the I15 tests required 60 min to defeat 275 foes with 762 damaging power activations. This is about 5 minutes faster than the ice/psi, but also against slightly fewer foes (about 20). Regardless, I find it interesting that BOTH /psi dominators ended up using MORE attacks despite the damage buff with the I15 revamp. This information once again points at the nerf of PSW and begs the question if it’s the opposite for non /psi doms, who didn’t rely on a single heavy hitting AoE for most of their damage pre-I15. I’ll have to look at my other 3 tests with my grav/elec, mind/thorn, and earth/fire doms to figure that out.

Anyway, the damage % enhancement values for the fire/psi’s powers are as follows:
Char 65
Fire Cages 0
Flashfire 0
Hot Feet 73
Psi Dart 0
Mental Blast 94
Mind Probe 100
Subdue 97
Psi Shockwave 99
Ball Lightning 99
Assault +11% to all

Prior to I15, I think you can see it’s obvious this dominator relied on AoE damage to clear mobs. She would typically lead with Flashfire (AoE stun) to incapacitate target mobs, followed by Fire Cages to immobilize. Then, she’d follow the fire imps into melee, hitting PSW, Ball Lightning, and Drain Psyche. Mobs that were still standing were then controlled with Char, Mind Probe and Subdue. PSW and Fire Cages were spammed as soon as they recharged.

The same opening attacks were used following I15. However, because PSW has had its damage scale cut, its recharge and endurance cost nearly doubled, and its range almost halved it doesn’t quite do the job it used to. Therefore, as with the ice/psi dominator, this fire/psi increased her reliance on previously underused ST powers (char, mind probe, subdue, mental blast and psi dart).

THEY created the cottage rule, Zamuel. THEY can bend, stretch, or break it.

The Energize power and the reordering of electric armor is proof (they did it for Clobber and Taunt - existing tanker set as well).

I'm asking why not the same kind of treatment for Dim Shift.

I didn't miss it, Weatherby. It's irrelevant to the point.

The devs can change an existing power.
The devs can change the lineup of powers in a set.
The only thing 'stopping' them is... well nothing.

They've set the precedent. I think it's time the dominator community asked for similar treatment in regard to gravity control's dimension shift.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? Do you like dimension shift? Do you use dimension shift? Do you play gravity control? How many others like/use/play grav and/or dim shift? How is it fine as is that it shouldn't be changed whether by its nature or its order?

If not now, when is a good time for the devs to address gravity control's lack of early AoE control and the lack of utility of dimension shift?

Would you prefer 5 more years? Would that give you enough time to ***** and complain that grav sux to finally get it out of your system?

There have been plenty of good ideas introduced now and in the past or how DS could be buffed, changed and/or reordered. Meanwhile the best use of the power advocated by its users is to not slot accuracy so you can purposefully miss targets and thereby 'thin the herd', all while constructing a warning bind for your teammates that coaches them how to react to the situation.

Are you friggin kidding me? I seriously cannot believe that a couple of you are even debating this. Is upping your post count that important?

Hey look, they changed the power order too for electric armor for heroes.

Another reason it should be okay to do something with Dim Shift like swap it with Wormhole.

From mmorpg.com Floyd says:

"During testing, we realized that Energize came too late in the lifetime of a character to truly be useful, so for the new versions of the powerset, we swapped the progression of Lightning Reflexes and Energize."

I'm updating this post with the data from my lvl 50 Fire/Psi/Mu dominator (non-perma).

Testing was identical as the Ice/Psi/Mu I discussed in the beginning of this thread.

Biggest overall difference was that the fire/psi dom saw almost ZERO change in performance as measured by Infamy per Hour earning while the ice/psi earned 17% more IPH due to the I15 revamp.

I need some time to digest the data to see if I can make sense of why that is the case, but I'm posting the links to the graphs now.

I14 vs I15 results (positive percentages indicate increases with I15, negative numbers indicate decreases):
Power Usage Change
Endurance Cost Change
Damage Output Change

More in-depth data:
Power Uses (Hot Feet was active the entire time)
Endurance Expenditures
DPM
DPE
DPH

I think I'm going to put the ice/psi and fire/psi numbers side-by-side to get a better picture of what's what because it doesn't make sense to me why the ice dom shows so much more improvement than the fire dom when the latter is the superior soloer.