Czar_Bal

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I'm sorry I didn't read this thread - so I don't know if what I'm about to say has been repeated.

Dear Devs,

Please please please don't balance an entire AT based on a click inherent ability. When people complain that dominators are not strong enough, the solution should NOT be to buff domination. Simply put, it's more fun to play a good character all the time than a crappy character most of the time that turns into an UBER god sometimes.

Much love for your work,
-Shak

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As much as I like the change, this is extremely true.

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Much as I like it too, I agree we could do with some work outside of Domination.

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I for one think that we only need small tweaks. 0.70 AT mod for ranged attacks and blaster level hps. As for Doms being weak outside of Domination, I truly feel that's at lower levels. Different AT's come into their own at different levels. No one can compete with a Stalker at level 6. But by the mid-20's, most Dom builds should be flying. People from every egde of Dom-nation have agreed that seems to be when their Dom took flight. Between this change and the decreased recharge on Domination, even lower levels should feel a huge difference.

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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?

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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.

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O M G !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY

All of you are sexy!!!



Ok now where is that Whirling Hands I skipped. RESPEC.

Wow. The villians finally catch a break.

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Ice/dark Necro/dark necro/ta Dark/dark and other controllery MM's and corruptors arent going anywhere. They give up damage for that control, but they still do more damage than dominators.

Heck any MM can outdamage any pre pet dominator by a large margin and even post pet dominators by a moderate.

Necro/dark and Necro/ta have some really good control. And much of it soft like tar patch and glue which werent nerfed to heck in the controller nerf.

Dominators are in a bad place compared to the controllerMM's and cor's.

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their control is very questionable. The recharge and activation times for ice/dark are horrible in comparison to dominators.

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I tend to agree with this. Sure my Ice/Dark Corr can control a mob and take them out, but I can still out control a mob with my Dom everytime (Of course Doms aren't controllers so get off this train.)

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Do dominators suck?
Are they fun?
Why do people say they arent good?

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People often think of us as "evil Controllers" even after CoV has been out for so long. We are meant to truly dominate single targets and help with a mob. In that respect we are a true force of destruction (PvP and certain AV's not withstanding.)

Controllers are supposed to control then battlefield with a combination of the mezz attacks and buff/debuffing capabilities. We are supposed to take a smaller portion and eliminate the threat from that area/critter.

As for fun, I leveled my Stalker to 40, my Brute to 20 then my Corr to 34 before I ever got aroung to trying a Dom (I even tried a couple of MM's -- not my cup of tea personally.) My Dom will be the first to hit 50 by a long shot. He is by far the most fun character I have, CoH included.

We could use some more help from the devs to bring us up in power but overall, I can solo very effectively because I can plan ever encounter and travel at my own pace. On teams, if the team lets me take the point and lead, I have a blast. Dealing with teammates that don't plan and rush headlong into danger isn't easy for my playstyle.

Had a strange thought. What if the devs actually take one of my suggestions and allowed villians to cooperate on Hami-raids. Wonder how many Dominations we could actually get? Wouldn't that show those loser Controllers?


Ummm ... the possibilities.

Amazing job folks.

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Well, to be fair, the monkey badge is easy now with the lower limit, by hunting a few hours with a full team in Crey's Folly.


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Still, Crey's Folley is a hazard zone and, if you go in and try to get it at the assigned level, you will get debt just like in PvP.

So the question becomes is it unfair to villains that they have to get a badge that can be easily obtained by a level 15 villain simply by farming a mission with a team of 8 with only 1 reset at most as compared to heroes needing to kill 1000 monkeys in a hazard zone that they can't enter until level 30+?

If anything, I think this badge is out of balance for heroes. Killing 1000 monkeys is not fun and can easily take you all day. Doing one mission twice to get Man in Black is a walk in the park and you get the accolade by level 40.

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I've seen this mission *once,* villain side.

For the monkeys - *how* many Rikti missions are there with it? (or for another accolade, Paragon Protectors?) You can go to Cf. You can go to FF. You don't have a choice of *a* mission ... or the PVP zone.

THe point is, on the hero side, there's no "you missed a mission you could farm, now you must go into a PVP zone or beg for that mission, like it or not." There are other options of getting those same mobs.

And yes, you can get debt in the PVE zones - but you can also control the situation much better than you can in the PVP zones.

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I leave to go to the store and someone makes my point exactly.

As for all the badges Taser has mentioned, they can be farmed in an open PvE zone (possible exception of PP) [/b]SAFELY[/b] if you just wait a couple of levels.


Masks -- hunt Talos at night after level 35 and the is NO RISK, just time commitment.

Illusions -- same thing except in Peregrine and wait for level 45.

Monkeys -- run through Crey's at level 40. Took me all of 3 hours to top off the last half of my bar. Which I was able to spread over the course of a month just by plucking off two or three spawns everytime I had a mission in there.

This is just another in the long list of things where the devs have made it more difficult for villians than heroes ever had it.

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Then how do you explain them putting badges in these pvp zones that people will want then? It is not fair to them in that instance. Personally I dont pvp as I see it as a big waste of time in which I could be leveling more alts. For me the only reason to go to those zones is for the badges.

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Being the badge hunter, anti pvp type I am. I will take this before someone who is anti badge and all pvp does.

This is Cuppa's, Posi's, Statesmans response:

You want all the content you have to pvp.

Deal with it.

and yes, I was told deal with it by one of them.

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Especially since the Megalomaniacal Badge requires you to kill 100 Shivans (Men in Black/Woman in Black Badge). So much for not having to go into a PvP zone if you don't want to.

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I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.


There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.

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Hey yet another reason to take fly

1. Slower than any other travel power for the slotting required
2. More endurance intensive
3. Over a dozen powers with -fly effects
4. Can get you debt in pvp now...

yay...

Why do we even have fly again? Lets just all make super jumpers and bounce around the city..../sarcasm off.

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Better make sure all your SJ's land at the same level you left from or go higher. The change in elevation (going from high to low) will lead to falling debt as well.




PvP -- Give Me Super Speed or Give Me Debt.

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Just added this patch note to PvP section:

Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.

* This means that you can no longer “escape debt” by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.

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I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.


There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.

Hey if you Zeroes can't handle a big blob like Hamidon, why don't you petition your beloved Statesman to extend a hand to us "Villians." We would show you how to splatter that thing in record time.

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/rpoff

I really don't mind Hamidon difficulty being increased if you allow Villians to help take down a Global Threat. More information on an idea I had can be found here.

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I don't want to debate the PvE issue again here (been done on the dom forum).

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Why? There is only one change of the three that is specifically for PvP. The quicker Domination recharge time and the melee damage buff are for PvE also. And limiting PvE talks to the Dom Forum is much less likely to get them heard.

PvP is a small part of the CoX Universe. Granted we need help in that area, but PvE won't be a picnic in the 40+ game. The changes so far are a good start but we will need help there too.

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Eventhough I got PWNED a lot with my Dom, I am having a blast.

One suggestion ...

DO THIS ONE WEEKEND EVERY OTHER MONTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Here's a better suggestion for you.... play it live on your own server.
Here's another one....ask the devs to set up a PvP only server that you can copy characters to.

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I do PvP on my own server, but I doubt any server puts up the numbers that this event does.

As for a PvP server, the limited time makes this so much more special. Everyone wants to jump in the action. A dedicated PvP server would dwindle down to just the "Hardcore PvP'ers" eventually. This server wipe and limited time allows everyone to have an equal footing.

Eventhough I got PWNED a lot with my Dom, I am having a blast.

One suggestion ...

DO THIS ONE WEEKEND EVERY OTHER MONTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The problem is if you give Doms 2-3 mags of mez protection your average min-maxer is gonna combine that with Acrobatics and I don't know if its a good idea for Doms to have that much protection solo.

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And here lies the problem. You and some others are concerned about this, Is it any different than the SR Scrapper that takes Tough to min/max his abilities?

The vast majority of players aren't min/max'ers. Even the majority people that enter a PvP zone aren't.The casual players are the ones that the devs need to help the most. Granted, we don't need Tanker level mezz protection, hp and damage, but the casual Dominator is going to get slaughtered. I have said it before, many of us can find a couple of Corrs to team with or get IoP mezz protection. But we are a very small portion of the population.

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If I get a very skilled Stalker, this problem goes away, but I tend to play with poor-to-mediocre Stalkers, and they literally cause me more trouble than going it alone.

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I find that's pretty much true of most AT's but you are correct about Stalkers being more troublesome then most.

I think that's because, even seven months into the life of CoV, many people still think of Stalkers as "Evil Scrappers" or "Evil Blappers." BillZBubba made a good observation on the Dominator boards earlier today:

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Got my grav/ene dom to 8 last night. 3rd time I've built him. When I tried to play him like a scrapper or a blaster, he sucked.


Then I decided to play him like a dominator. Everything changed.


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That's more true than anything I've seen on the boards in a long time. When people forget about trying to play the CoV AT's like they played CoH AT's, their gameplay improves dramatically.

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Being as COX PVP is balanced around teams, showing how a Dom can be successful and bring benefits to a team is probably one of the most important topics for PVP Doms.

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This is exactly the arguement that I used for getting mezz protection for Doms in PvP. Make 2 lists. One for all the AT/Power Sets that can Hold or Stun. Second All the AT's/Power Sets that can buff a Dom so that we can effectively go into melee range to use the one big advantage that we have (Toggle Dropping). Which is Longer by far?

This also doesn't take into account the abundance of mezz producing minions in the PvE 40+ game. Yet, I get shoot down everytime by others.

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Since it seems that we keep going around in circles on the previous topics: a new question.

Will the Domination PvP bonus points be applied if we attack with the PPP attacks?

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no

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So much for the PPP's being "more powerful than Hero APP's."

Since it seems that we keep going around in circles on the previous topics: a new question.

Will the Domination PvP bonus points be applied if we attack with the PPP attacks?

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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.

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Will Dominators use their melee or ranged modifier?

Melee mod would r0xxor!

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Thought just cross3ed my mind also.

To piggyback off this thought. Will PPP attacks get the bonus PvP Domination points as well?

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With our LV38 powers+domination plus any buffs we may get from teammates we do provide decent damage as well.

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Maybe */Fire's lvl 38 is decent, as long as you have Fiery Embrace on, but to make that blanket statement is false. As a */Energy, if I have to get in that close, I am much better off taking the extra two steps and hitting Bonesmasheer (my lvl 2 power). At least then I have a small chance at detoggling a power and a remote chance at a stun. Of course, that is if I live long enough (or am not mezzed before I can) to get into range. The disparity between secondaries is huge.

I won't bring up my PB/Aim/Psyche Drain suggestion again but that one switch would greatly benefit every Dom and level the playing field against other AT's as well.

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Tone is very difficult to discern on forums, lets keep the sarcasm to minimum if possible.

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No, you got the tone exactly correct. Sarcasm is sometimes needed to counter sanctimony. Discussing changes and what we still could use to be effective is the purpose of this thread. Yet, all I have seen is people tell some of us that Doms are fine and we either are whiners or don't know how to play this game. (At least that what it reads like.)

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First, no amount of self heals protect from mezzes, ...

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I agree, but Corrs can at least heal damage much more easily than a Dom. Pop a BF and hit you're heal. One INS, not the 2 that Doms need. Plus Corrs can do more damage due to their buffs/debuffs. Even a */Dark Corr gets Tar Patch which has a -RES component that can increase the damage potential of his team.

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I don't know why this is so hard for people, but the vast majority of all CoX AT's don't PvP effectively solo.

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Never said they could. But, even from what you said, Doms need Corr back-up. Maybe this is truly a factional thing, but if a Dom goes into a zone, should they leave if there isn't a "pocket-Corr" for them? There are WAY too many ways to nuetralize Doms at any level. BF's eliminate the primary and the secondary is weak for PvP purposes. The changes to Domination go a long way to help since we get the increase in Mag and it does come up faster (assuming you can live long enough to build it.) Tactics and Assualt would help boost damage output, but if people follow the recommended Power Pool allotment, they can't get them.

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One of the things that differentiates all PvP builds from PvE builds is that more power pools are taken and weaknesses are minimized.

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Again, I am looking at ALL players being able to PvP on any decent team and have at least a taste of success. We board readers sometimes forget that we are a vocal minority and PvP shouldn't be an exclusive club that eliminates the fun for casual PvP'ers. Should they expect to come into a zone and run the place? Probably not, but to totally discourage them isn't acceptable either. Everyone should have a fighting chance.

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I really don't get this kind of statement, do you think you have no options? Pop a Break Free _before_ you get hit, no stun. Clarity also works wonders and Aid Self offers resistance, IIRC.

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So, leaving the zone every ten minutes to recharge your INS tray is the only way to play? There is a huge disparity between heroes and villians in mezz abilities and protection. (Warburg is even worse since there can be Villian-on-Villian action as well.) Yet, whenever I or others bring this up as a problem, we are told that we should just use BF's or get a "pocket-Corr." This only is a partial solution for many and is worsened in PvE with the amount of mezz-producing minions in the late game.

Thanks for the "facts" about Ice/Dark. I bow to your greatness, oh wise one.



The -ToHit change does hamper the set a bit and it's not the best for PvP, but as for them needing as much care as a Dom, you must be stating an opinion here. Most Corrs get a self-heal (albeit a ToHit is required). That alone makes them more survivable in PvP. Add in other buffs/debuffs, they can hold their own for a bit longer.


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While do have a dedicated VG and we create teams based on AT synergy is that so uncommon or so unrealistic to expect from players?

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So if the right combo of AT's aren't in a zone when a Dom enters, shoulld they just leave? PvP should be easy, fun and quick. The changes to Domination should help, but the fact that active Defenses don't work in PvP is very evident. A non-aligned Dominator (coming in already on a team) will still be like the last kid picked in P.E. class, a pity pick-up at best.


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Acrobatics protects from one application of most/all of the non Controller holds, is it unrealistic that you buy a tray of Breakfree's before entering the zone?

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So any player that wants to PvP should take (from what I have read on the boards time and again):

Leaping: CJ, SJ and Acrobatics (3 powers)
Medicine: One of the first 2, Aid Self (2 powers)
Speed: Hasten (1 power)
Fitness: Swift, Health, Stamina (3 powers)

There are nine powers and people are locked into SJ for a travel power. That leaves 11 powers from your primary and secondary.

Now, go grab (at level 40 ) 4 Greens, 4 Blues, and 12 BF's. When they run out leave the zone to get more.

Lastly, run like heck if you see anyone with the pink Pom-Poms of death 'cause you gonna get stunned.

One of the things that we all have to rememeber is that most of us on the boards are in well established and "powerful" VG's with the resources to pull in a Corr to buff us. The problem that some people forget is that this game is also played by casual gamers that will be in the mix.

It seems to me that it is poor planning that every hero in RV have (ranged) mezz attacks and make an AT so-dependent on making sure that we have a */Thermal or */Sonics Corr to cover us. Should the casual PvP'er look at his teammates' power sets then just leave because his chances of repeated trips to the hospital outweigh his chance of being able to survive long enough to build Domination?