Cuppa_LLX

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depends on whatthe defintion of wise is

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Thank you, Mr. President.

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I did not have nerf relations with that developer Jack Emerat

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The fact remains they define what is broken, not the playerbase.

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Again they define improve. Not us.

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Sorry, but this overly simplistic generalization simply isn't true. There are variations of "broken", and different kinds of "improve"ments.

If the customers are dissatisfied, and the reasons make sense, then the marketing department, as well as the wise game designer, will realize that the game is, indeed, broken, even if it is "working as designed" (software engineers in the crowd will catch that joke).

Similarly, if the majority of the players believe a certain change would "improve" the game, and hence increase the likelihood of their continuing subscription, the marketing department (and the wise developer) will view it as an improvement, as well, unless it critically alters an aspect of the game of which the playerbase is currently unaware.

Example: A GM in a PnP game alters the levelling/xp gain process to make what he sees as an "improvement". In this matter, he has become a "game designer". But if his players HATE it, or find it to be "broken", he would be wise to "fix" it, or eliminate it entirely. Otherwise, his opinion will rule over an empty table.

Sorry, but that's the way it works.

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depends on whatthe defintion of wise is

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And under the current system I have to spend half an hour to get a team wipe because I found an idiot blaster who can't control aggro, or take a week to finish an arc so I can get my SG together.

Then if I want to do Maria Jenkins, I have to do this for every single mission.

Personally, I prefer to have your "problem" Lothart.

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And I'm proposing a way neither of us will have this problem. By marking, clearly and explicity, every mission that can spawn an AV so that everyone has a clear choice whether they get to face an AV or not.

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and you aparenty dont realize a AV is in EVER mission in the post 40 COH game and post 25 COV game

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While the other changes you mentioned are fine and dandy, I want to go on the record as saying that I don't like the AV change at all. The game is too easy most of the time anyway, so removing the one thing that forces you to make some friends seems like a bad idea to me. Most AV's can be duo'd (how exactly do you spell that made up word?) and with a team of three or four, it's a guaranteed win for you (assuming you put together a decent group).


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Er... you seem to be presenting two different arguments here. One, that AVs are too easy as it is (yet a good team of 3-4 "guarantees" them), and two, that forced teaming is a good thing. Given the rest of your post, I'm assuming that you only really mean the latter argument.

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How many people can't find another person or two to help them out? Sure, if it's 3 AM on a Thursday you're going to have issues, but otherwise who is really having this problem?


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Me, for one. You seem to think that AV fights force me to make "friends", but in truth, the bulk of pick up groups I've joined have pointedly reminded me why I prefer to stay within my extant circle of actual friends. The first Strike Force that I ran in CoV, for instance, was led by someone who kept pulling his pets out of fights so that the rest of the team would die instead, and who repeatedly told us that he wasn't going to rez people even though he had the power to do it. A couple more had teams so horribly uncoordinated that the whole team died in the first room of the mission, and one even had a full team wipe without inflicting a single mob casualty. The most recent example, the rest of the team had come to a plan on dealing with the AV, but one guy simply refused to use our strategy, demanding we use his instead - no arguments, no explanations of why his plan was better than ours, just the comment that our plan's victory was a "fat chance". Half the team died as a direct result. Hell, the last time I ran Frostfire, the scrapper I teamed up with insisted that a lieutenant outcast was more of a threat to my kheld than a void stalker, and refused to try to mitigate any of the damage Frostfire sent my way, even though the scrapper had more hit points and resistances. I've teamed with brutes who wordlessly walk away from fights to rest, tankers who run through the squishies and THEN say to retreat, people who try to charge for awakens, and more.

Now, you can say that my results are atypical, and I admit that they're very much only anecdotal. What they most assuredly are, however, are what I've found to be the norm in pick up groups. This is why I, and many others, detest the so.

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The number of AV's has never bothered me all that much and the only character that was ever "stuck" with a whole tray of AV missions is my level 50. This was only because I didn't "need" to play him anymore, so I didn't care. As soon as I decided to clear one it took me about 3 minutes to get a team together and take out the Carnie AV that I had been sitting on for 4 months or so.


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Good for you, but your experiences don't reflect on us anymore than ours do on you.

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I think this is one of those perceived problems (like all the people who swear they were always at the debt cap) that doesn't actually need "fixed."


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Having been one of those people who went whole levels in debt on a character, you picked a bad example.

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If anything, you're just removing content (which is a problem)


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How so? By your own admission, AVs aren't particularly difficult with a decent team.

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to appease a small group of antisocial people who can't find a team.


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I'm not antisocial. As an RPer, quite the opposite - it generally takes me twice as long to hit the max level, because I'm socializing so much. What AVs do, however, is force me to team up with people who are antisocial, who have no desire to play along with the team, or who are just outrageously foolish.

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Or maybe I'm just spoiled because I never have any problems finding a good team. My SG and Global Chat contacts are always willing to help. I haven't had to team with a stranger for months.

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I think you're on to something, then - you're not meeting new friends, you're just hanging out with the ones you've got. For those of us who aren't in the same boat - maybe we're too high/low level for most of our SG, maybe our times clash too often - we're stuck with PUGs, and hate the notion.

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from lvl 32 (isse 3) to lvl 40 (current) my scrapper has been in pera debt

Stuper refleses FT loose

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You might not like stealth suppression, but the exploit is there, and it needs to be dealt with somehow. If not suppression, what else? Throw out a superior solution if you don't like it. I'm not wild about stealth suppression either (especially the way spawns in Arachnos bases keep appearing too close together), but I don't have any better ideas.

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what exploit?

geting non-existant xo from glowies?

the fact glowies no lover gives xp fixes the exploit

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This means no suppression either, right? That would incur most of the same problems the original nerf brought, so I hope we're sticking with stealth as-is.

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If you read Statesman's comment on it, yes supression of stealth will be coming in a future patch. They will be pulling the current method so they can code supression in.

Its only being pulled because otherwise idiots would use group and castable invisibility abilities to grief and harass players.

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Hate to spoil the fun but you do realise those who predicted abait and switch were...right

The devs AI is as predictable as a vazalok cadaver without a mortie

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So...

Your not happy with the Dev's because they never listen to the playerbase, however, anything thats done that appears to be listening to the playerbase is all really part of some bait and switch?

Way to go, you've got it set up so that no matter what the Dev's do, its the wrong decision.

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go read the "marked glowes thread" wthat stated the steath outcry

one of the most common respodendes was "Watch the devs post how their going to lesten it to suppression and give us the old bait and switch 'see we do listen toyou its just going to be suppression now"

and what has happened now

"we heard your crises and are making it suppression instead'

predicted to the letter

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This means no suppression either, right? That would incur most of the same problems the original nerf brought, so I hope we're sticking with stealth as-is.

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If you read Statesman's comment on it, yes supression of stealth will be coming in a future patch. They will be pulling the current method so they can code supression in.

Its only being pulled because otherwise idiots would use group and castable invisibility abilities to grief and harass players.

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Hate to spoil the fun but you do realise those who predicted abait and switch were...right

The devs AI is as predictable as a vazalok cadaver without a mortie

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This means no suppression either, right? That would incur most of the same problems the original nerf brought, so I hope we're sticking with stealth as-is.

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If you read Statesman's comment on it, yes supression of stealth will be coming in a future patch. They will be pulling the current method so they can code supression in.

Its only being pulled because otherwise idiots would use group and castable invisibility abilities to grief and harass players.

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Urge to quit Rising...rising....falling...rising

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One thing is bothering me after reading the replies, it's the people who are saying "But now I can't have an AV in my mission to solo unless I set the difficulty up but then its a higher level and I still can't solo it."

This ^^^^ is why we get nerfs people. You aren't supposed to be able to solo an AV. If the game just isn't challenging enough try upping your difficulty or teaming up more, it can be a whole new type of gameplay when you are on a team. but seriously, whining because now you don't get to solo an AV? If you can solo an even level AV you should be able to handle having your difficulty turned up.

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In theory you could solo a av, heck i was in a duo wit ha blaster way back in I2 and we almost soloed a av.

but it takes a obsecne amont of planning

basicly said blaster built a mine field and i, the scrapper lured the av into it.manged to stack up explosions to take Vandel down to half but we count do it....

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Um...

Wow...

Holy....

You guys just keep finding new ways to earn my money.

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Urge to quit...falling...falling...RISING....falling....

invincbilites numbers is 1.5% per mob, more fore the first one/
but their a big causing it to self stack wich gave the inpresion it was 3.0 per

dont wory their "fixing" that bug.

Twas the night before x-mas
and all through the city
not a hero was stirring
not even Ms. Kitty
The villians were nestled all snug in their beds
Visions of larceny all ripe in their heads
Suddenly the base sensors gave such a clatter
I check the reports and the worse "Anti-Matter"
I hopped in my tights and quieted my bladder
I held my breath the better to hear.
"Lord Recluse, Ghost Widow, Mako!" i feared!
No some woman in fleece was droping her stash!
So i drew out my arms, ready to blast!
With a wink and smile she was gone in a flash!
Approaching the small device under my tree
and cursed very loudly
The object was phased you see!
And so i sat there thinking...Why me?

ill put up a 50 ff/rad, 38 ma/sr, and 32 vunerability/ss tank

just give me the time so i can makwe the peoer test transfers

my blobal is well you can see it ...its my forum handle

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Hey BL, haven't seen ya in a while. At this point, I honestly think a Brute is the best way to go. If you picked up CoV go get your SMASH!! on.

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Heh Nozy - I have picked up CoV but up to now haven't started a Brute, been enjoying a Stalker as a change of pace but I will be starting a brute over the next couple of days and see how it plays out - if it plays like I think it will then I will be re-rolling the Lion as a Brute because the playstyle seems to be closer to a comic book brick than Tank ever will be, just have to hope I can bring him over to the side of good at some stage (because the British Lion is a hero not a villain) and find someone willing to take all the influence that the Lion picked up over 50 levels.

As an aside from my brief time in CoV I feel that the Devs have really learnt from the mistakes they made with the CoH AT's because everyone brings damage to the table, no-one is a cripple that must team with someone else to level. It's a subtle change in the team dynamic but people still team even though they don't have to and in my opinion represents the team dynamic of supers better than the CoH dynamic.

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Speak for yourself Meat Bag, i only team to increase the pool of minnions i have to toose at my aversaries...you you /happen/ to benifit from my manuvers, forcefield generator and triage becon so be it, but i am not here to hel you meat bag. You are there to take the agro for me liike a good little pet

((sorry channeled my Mastermind a bit there...Gina doenst like to sit back i nthe old head :P)))

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So, you're pissed off because you don't get to play a game for...two days?

Come on, Blizzard denies us games for months on end. Anyone still wondering if Starcraft:Ghost is even going to come out at all?

2 Days, sure, they realize you work for a living, I'm sure they also realize that 2 days is really not that long...

And really, do you work 24/5?

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I work 12/5 + 6 hours of sleep does that count?

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When a player deliberately (and consistently) makes the game unfun for other players.

Usually this consists of things like:

Harrassment
Deliberately preventing others from completing missions/gaining xp
Finding ways to kill/injure non-PvP players (training high-level mobs onto low levels, etc.)
Using exploits in the game system (things that weren't intended) to kill/injure/harrass players
Deliberately preying on players in PvP who are hopelessly outclassed (spawn camping/sniping newbies, for example)
Broadcasting insults about x player, x hero, lamers, etc.

Generally griefing is pretty obvious -- you step into an area, BLAM! get wasted before you can do anything, and then get a tell about how you are lame and so-and-so is superior because he just worked you because you are lame -- well, that's griefing. It can be a little trickier than this but it's like what Justice Stewart said about pornography -- "...I know it when I see it."

One of the goals as a designer is to create systems to make it hard to do griefing -- without being overly restrictive. It's not easy.

It is important to remember that we, as players, are a community and the game is about community play, even if you do nothing but solo. Just doing what you want at the expense of the enjoyment of other players (not characters, but actual account-holding players) is not in the spirit of the game.

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Come on Zeb you knew somoen was gonn say this so without further Apu....

"Help me Statesman is greffing me on CoH, hes mad my playing not fun, a hassled, and fustrating. Cant you do anything about him?"

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Or it's completely different. It is mandatory to train and buy in order to lvl through this game, which I believe is the point of the game. To become the most powerful superhero you can be. It is NOT mandatory to have some extra exploration badges, badges showing that you killed a certain number of bad guys, or any of the helpful (but not necessary) accolades.

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Back when I started this game (Aug? 2004) I heard of a SG that was comprised soley of people who never trained- Anyone else hear of them? What a horrible way to play, if true...

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Level 1s

they didnt lvl persay they just never trained they have cape and aura but be forever conning as lvl 1...that was until the "blue active level" patch went in....

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I have so often wondered if you could do that, just continuously lvl but never train......LOL.

What is the "blue active level" patch?

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origininally when you leveled you target window ssaid you trained level so if you hadent trained in 3 levels and you were 44 you coned as 41

but they recently introduced a patch where when you level instead of your level being in white (trained) it became Blue for your current untrained level ie in the before instance you would con 44 but the 44 wiould be blue in color

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Or it's completely different. It is mandatory to train and buy in order to lvl through this game, which I believe is the point of the game. To become the most powerful superhero you can be. It is NOT mandatory to have some extra exploration badges, badges showing that you killed a certain number of bad guys, or any of the helpful (but not necessary) accolades.

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Back when I started this game (Aug? 2004) I heard of a SG that was comprised soley of people who never trained- Anyone else hear of them? What a horrible way to play, if true...

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Level 1s

they didnt lvl persay they just never trained they have cape and aura but be forever conning as lvl 1...that was until the "blue active level" patch went in....

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Cool. I know an Ice Tanker. He'll appreciate this, though I'll have to explain the finer points of why it was necessary...

Thanks

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You know an Ice Tank?

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I also know a ice tank....well Ice Scraker

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Came back after a few months of vacation from CoH. Wow...

I was expecting some changes but not this much at once. My Invuln Tanker is crap now. I had to use up all his attack slots to boost my defensive power slots...just to be somewhat of a tank I was before I5. I'm not very pleased. Soloing is absolutely boring and tedious now....

Other than that....my freaking server is a god damn ghost town. Everyone on my friendlist has quit. My SG is gone.

I can deal with the nerfs, but I can't deal with the lack of players in a MULTIPLAYER game. "Hits you on the head with a cyber coffepot" Wake up and do something.

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"players come , players go, suchis the nature of mmps"
-statesman

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No, I believe Statesman is saying that all power pool defenses, in parallel with providing melee/ranged defense, will also be providing smash/lethal defense.

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Yep. That's what it meant.

As for changing the way defense works...eek. That's not really an option. There's simply too many things that would break...It's just not do-able.

As for why only S/L? Because in these powers, that simply made sense - and because of the prevalence of S/L damage throughout the game.

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actually states its NOT

type base defese remove it, period

give enerything positional

there you go

ice tanks get positional defense, ff defenders, positional defense, sr positional defense, defense pools get positional defense, steamy mist...you get the idea.

the when a FF teams witha darky and have a SR and Icer inthe team the FF and shadows stack unto the existing defenes...

not really all that hard, you can add type based defense (these pools), you can add positonal type defense (forcefields now) so why cant you remove Type based, adjust ice tanks to positional and be done with it.

there you go no w +defs always stack cause their is no type based.

why wont that work?

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Learn a bit of english while your at it.

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Quoted because I'm a fan of irony.

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Quoted because I am also a fan of irony.

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LOL, you may be a fan of irony, but "your" certainly no fan of the english you suggest others learn.

Spelling and grammar nazis should really be more careful with their homophones. Give this a whirl...

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LOL, it does not look like you are either.

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Okay, I really hate to drag this out, but the perfectionist in me must know...what exactly are you referring to?

And just for the record, I'm no habitual forum spell checker. I just think it's hilarious when someone tries to correct someone else's english and gets it wrong themselves. Hence, the irony. But I'm more than willing to accept that I've made an error myself. Please point it out. I don't see it.

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No error that I can see. I believe iNdyi is just doing his or her best to troll.

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Quoted because i'm also a fan of trolling and this thread has lost all direction, so why try?

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It's only the people that PL who are mad at the changes I5 brought. Me personally, I haven't noticed a thing. The game feels the same to me. It's just so darn quite when I log on now. Darn nerf hearding CoV beta buffers.

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Well I am not a power leveler by any means and I am mad at I5 ans so are a lot of non power levelers I play with who rarely play now and are debating on canceling their 4 accounts. In the group of 6 of us only 2 of us have a level 50 and the other 4 that do not have played longer than I have.

I say your statement does not even have a modicum of truth to it. The reason is that all I5 did was change the way pl work and instead of using tanks they use scrappers or a couple combos of uber controllers classes.

In fact it is eaiser to PL now than it was before I5 you get more xp per mob now you just go small group to small group really fast. The damage out put is up and makes XP gain quicker you can clear a mission faster now than before I5 using the right AT combos. Run around kill everything real fast leave mission reset rinse repeat. So now they can kill faster and get more xp and no longer have to spend hours herding up tons of mobs for the same xp.

Sorry the statement was wrong on to many fronts

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So i guess that makes my lvl 32 invuln tank a pl because im unhappy wit hthe changes and cant tank anything non s/l

:nods: ya that makes sense, cant posible be upset about nerfs unless your a pling nerf herder. So guess im a pling nerf herder, does it really matter that the most i would grab is 2 mobs to prevent spill over except in those cases when we so outleveled the missio it was -3 to -6 mobs in it where i would herd intire rooms of thing that coned at best blue on a boss, white in a elite boss?

Naaaa i must be a pling nerf herder...

isnt that rght hej? I mean you do the same thing i do, that mean we must be pling nerfherders right? We cant be dussatifed players....

sarcasm off

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Tanking for large teams against non s/l damage dealers is more of an issue. And actually, the biggest issue seems to be play style. For those of us who enjoyed being damage sponges and holding the aggro of very large groups of mobs, COH is no longer the same. For the Skrankers and solo tankers, I5 didn't bring a huge change to their playstyle.


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By the same token, being a non-tanker on a team with a i4 invulnerability tanker was best described by me playing a blaster as "tanker's pet", "redundant", or "bridge so I can PL people."

I'm sympathetic to people who can't play the old way anymore and lost what they enjoyed most about being a tanker in i4. I really am. But I tended to feel as non-heroic as a tanker felt heroic in those situations. I noticed teams generally didn't look for or want a second tanker or a controller to do anything other than spam pets, with an i4 tanker. I've seen 2nd tankes invited because "my buddy wants to play" and I've seen 2nd tankers leave teams where they weren't the 1st tanker and "felt useless."

The i5 tanker is still pretty darned tough, they just now have the same limitations (more or less) that all players do: they cannot handle team-level challenges without their team's support. Leaving it the way it was in i4 where a tanker could handle team-level challenges without team-level support was pretty clearly broken and equally clearly not healthy for the game long-term.

I don't agree with the approach i5 took to reducing tankers from over-powered to in-line, I believe especially that invulnerability as a powerset should be resist and not defense defined, but that doesn't change the fact that i4 tankers were desperately in need of an adjustment.

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which is just bunk if you job is agro managament of a team you need to uh..manage the agroa team generates...

funny that...

if i forgo all attacking power to be a damng spong i better be a damn good dmg sponge

simple as fact

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since this was dug up again, I'll post. I've been domesticated! I used to be Feral, borderline wild (I'd only team for TFs), but now I'm domesticated in that I want to always team with the SG I joined.

I still solo at times though. In teams, I still get scrapper lock and sometimes I still have to be told "We're not ready! Don't you go jumping off into that spawn yet!".

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Sraperus Domesticus here, i teem on all my tunes but i do get scrapper lonc and until i see my duo budy or team droping into the orange i dont break agro...but i also play speed demons so i tend to julp between mobs liek a Brute on syperdyne