Computer

Well I guess I am just lucky then. Is there a list of which ones do/don't work?

I used to PvP waaay back in the day with my Plant/EA on Champion. Perhaps part of the reason that Plant is underrated could be that people still have a bad taste in their mouth (so to speak) from the days when enemies had to be on the ground for most of Plant's abilities to affect them.

Actually this change currently only affects PvE.

It's alright, however I prefer the previous version.

Such as this?

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The latter.

I don't understand why you are intentionally trying to be so mean, especially when I have not done the same to you. How is it helping the discussion at hand?

If there are mathematics that define just where Granite Armor is exceeding the limits than there shouldn't be opinions as to how to fix it. We would know exactly where it falls in what circumstances.

If we didn't touch a thing with the power ie. Duration = Perma Survivability = Same, what would the mathematics tell us the drawbacks should be. I realize you didn't specify if this is possible in one formula, however if these problems are based in mathematics there should be a way to relate them.

I guess I'm not understanding because this happens with a lot of other sets. The defender forums are consistently filled with teams who only want a healer, or teams that only want a Speed Booster. In the case of kinetics, Speed Boost has become the set (or set-defining power). Is Kinetics in line for a change as well? Personally I couldn’t care less what other people think my builds should have.

What your saying (correct my if I am wrong) is that this view point, is evidence to a greater imbalance within the set. What I am finding a hard time agreeing with is the severity of that imbalance which illicits the enormous changes that are required to bring it back into the fold.

Let me know If I am interpreting this incorrectly. There are a few points where you use 'set' for both the power set and the set bonuses (I believe), so forgive me if I am mixing them up.

Nothing is stopping the casual gamer from keeping Granite Armor on permanently. The difference between him and the non-casual gamer is the fact that the non-casual gamer will be better suited to playing in Granite Armor if the time comes.

Instant Healing doesn't quite match up, because if you had enough endurance to run it, you could leave it on indefinitely and not give it another thought. Turning it off meant that you had more endurance recovery, which was completely useless had you built to have enough recovery when Instant Healing was running. There was no gain.

There will always be times when not using Granite Armor is the correct course of action, due to the fact that turning it off turns off the drawbacks.

Which brings us back to the question of how much of a drawback should Granite Armor have to bring it in line with the other set.

Which is an area that we disagree in.

It comes down to this. The crippling drawbacks that you believe are needed, are not the crippling drawbacks that I believe are needed.

The crippling drawbacks that I envision would not count to you and would then force me to choose another area to lose in; however, in my opinion it would count. I don't think any further discussion will change this road block.


I'm afraid that my input is not doing much in this debate. Perhaps I am simply wrong. It has been fun bouncing ideas back and forth none the less.

Correct.

Right. Granite Armor is just one power in the set that one can use.

Correct. However does that make it a solely defense based set? What is Willpower? One must take into account that the resistance does exist and people utilize it.

The set is not based around resistance, the set has different mitigation tactics (defense, resistance, regeneration) and can fall back upon a strong resistance heavy (with defense) armor. That is what I am saying. The set is not based upon resistance, but it would not be the same without having it.

I admit I somehow missed the all vs. Smashing/Lethal, however I still do not think it proves the original point. A substantial amount of resistance is being lost from the set. This is not being made up by the changes.

I didn't say it would have to be done that way.

From what I see, our disagreements are opinion based. I agree, Granite Armor is not the entire set.

The only thing that we know is what Castle says. The point of the thread got him interested in posting, whether or not he agrees with the premise (and from his posts, we cannot tell) is separate. What he actually posts is what we can infer from.

Sorry, but without Arcanaville to hold my hand through the process of entering it (which I wouldn't want to put her through ) I would have no idea where to begin. Excel spreadsheets...are not something I work well with.

• With Granite Armor, the set will retain the same level of survivability.
• Granite Armor's power is being reduced.
  Therefore
• Other parts of the set will be increased to make up for Granite's loss.

That is my thought process.

I guess we shall agree to disagree.

I still see it a tad differently, however I get your point.

Why not? While you can build for some slow resistance and building for defense reduces the chance of a -regeneration or -recharge debuff's chance to hit you, I don't see why a set absolutely positively cannot make up for their weaknesses. The reason that some sets can easily cover their holes, while other cannot is simply that they are designed as different sets which do different things.

A balancing factor in Fiery Aura is the relatively weak mitigation it provides due to the offensive capabilities it brings to the table. Why should Fiery Aura be allowed to mitigate it's weaknesses when regeneration cannot?

The point I was making is that the pets are different, they don't all have to be the same. Anything else is irrelevant.

See above.

Alright fine, we don't need to continue a debate which will just end up in more differing opinions.

Because it is different.

What is stopping an Invulnerability user from IOing out their build to be able to handle situations in which they would normally need to use Unstoppable (or in other words would be able to withstand as much as, be as strong as, if they were in Unstoppable?)

Does Granite Armor provide too much of a survivability increase for the drawbacks it has?
Are Granite Armor's drawbacks too easy to overcome?

These are obviously areas we disagree on, and I doubt further discussion will change it.

With all due respect, I truly hope you are wrong.

I disagree.

I disagree.

I'm afraid any further discussion is moot. It was...interesting...debating with you.

I did not say that you were altering the focus of the set. I am saying you are changing the set so now it only has defense to fall back on (with slight resists with Granite Armor on).

Nor, if I may point out, is it a defense based set. Stone Armor has mitigation in many areas including defense, resistance, and regeneration.

I am afraid I do not understand what you are talking about.

This...
...is your only mention of increased resistance. Even if we look at it from the standpoint of being relative to defense increases, it still is not increased more.

Yes, I do understand this part.

Why? If the defensive numbers were lowered than I would need to shunt more set bonuses in to make up for the lost survivability, which is something that can be accomplished versus making up for lost resistance numbers. That in turn would mean I have less resources for set bonuses in other areas such as recharge reduction and damage.


Where have I mentioned that I play my Stone Armor tanks in perma Granite Armor? I haven't, and in fact I don't. Nor are you able to comment about my skill because you disagree with me.

Are you sure? No where that I can find does he even mention Shields level of protection except for my excerpt, which says nothing about it being too high (just the opposite in fact).

I'm afraid I personally cannot do that however I will ask someone else who I believe has an application to do so. I will get back to you with the results.

Obviously not, however we differ in opinions about just how many apples and dollars we have.

This:
This is why I have been referring to things being transferred. In the end you want to user to be able to be able to reach the same amount of defense, with a less powerful version of Granite Armor.

Alright, I will try not to refer to things as being transferred.

Sorry, but I am more used to using the God Mode when referring to a god mode. It did not 'click' with me that you were not using tier nine the same way that I do.


Moment of Glory is Regeneration's tier nine. It falls in the ninth slot of the power's power set. This classification is not arbitrary; it is designed in-game.

In terms of if it is a God Mode or not is interesting. The strength of the set is spread around the powers quite substantially meaning the tier nine power could be designed weaker because the rest of the set is already very powerful. Personally I still think of Moment of Glory as the God Mode, however it's apparent that out opinions here differ as well.

What do you mean by this? It would seem to me that the God Modes of recent sets (Strength of Will and One with the Shield if you agree that they are God Modes) have been designed around the fact that they will be used more often.

Unstoppable's up time = 33% (Slotted)
Strength of Will's up time = 40%

An effective endeavor, however I must point out a point that I made eairler in this post. The limiting attributes of Granite Armor can be compensated for, however options for set bonuses must be used up in order to do so. After the limitations have been erased, the player can then build for what they want in any area.

A build that does not have drawbacks can build upon what they already have. They do not have to use resources to even the scores. An example of this, is the fact that build that does not have to make up for Granite Armor can achieve perma Hasten (Whether or not they want to is beside the point for this argument). In order to do the same in Granite Armor, you would need approximately 260% +recharge (With 6 slotted Hasten) which is unattainable (or in the case of the Force Feedback proc, unsustainable) by IOs alone.

In this case it comes down to: Does Granite Armor give up enough for what it gets? To which you answer, No.

This is irrelevant to the point I was trying to get across.

So am I to believe that they are all designed to do the same amount of damage? Obviously not. Fire Imps do more than Singularity in terms of damage; however, the Imps can't hold a candle to the levels of control the Singularity puts out.

The point is, they are all different and function in different ways. The different God Modes of different sets can be created the same way, by making them different and functioning in different ways.

So if some players are not detoggling Granite Armor when it is unneeded then they are only handicapping themselves.

Why should I leave Granite Armor on when I am facing a group of weaklings that cannot take me down if I use just Rock Armor itself? Without Granite Armor I will be able to take them down much faster due to not having the -65% recharge, -30% damage, and -30% runspeed.

If someone leaves Granite Armor on in that situation, why should we care? Had I been teamimng with them, my Stone Armor tank would have wiped the floor with them, before the he was finished walking over to them. The change should not be a forced downtime.

If someone is leaving Granite Armor on in that situation because turning it off would not net a meaningful pace decrease, then we have a problem. (Assuming this change is not due to teammates.) I personally don't see this happening.

In my opinion, it is a problem of semantics, and:
For the sake of argument, I will concede that the -damage is easy to nullify.

I think you are overlooking a major issue with +recharge. The person who wants to live in Granite Armor won't care that over time Hasten + 45% recharge will even out the recharge penalty. They want to completely get rid of it, meaning at least 65% +recharge from other sources (at which point we are assuming they are alright without perma Hasten).

If we look at it from the perspective of someone who does not want to live in Granite Armor, they are still faced with times where they will find themselves in Granite Armor, and not have the bonus of Hasten to even it out (unless they choose to never be in Granite Armor without Hasten active).

I don't think that averaged +recharge bonuses are applicable to this situation.

I can agree if they take Teleport.

Due to unavailability (or game mechanics, whichever way you look at it), IOs cannot undo Unstoppable's drawbacks (as I am sure you already know).

As someone who has built-roleplaying characters around the idea of maintaining perma Granite Armor, I do understand how hard it is to nullify it's effects.

I believe this is one issue we will not see eye to eye on.

Really? Because my first Stone Tanker was because I saw someone in Granite Armor decided "Must Have!!!"

I would rather keep:

• The ability to keep Granite Armor toggled.
• The ability to maintain the same peak survivability (even if it means evening mitigation out across the board and having all the armors able to be on at the same time).
• Lose offense to make up for the defense.

However, in my opinion, the loss of offense should put us closer to the level of offense we have now rather than the complete nullification of it as in the case of PFF.

P.S. I realize, Umbral, that I might not have been explaining things clearly enough; however, I would appreciate it if you would lose some of the snarkyness. I also care about what happens to my Stone Armor users considering I have five and am planning to make more.

My comments come from playing my Super Strength/Shield Defense Brute. He is built for capped defense to all positions, as well as some resistance (Potential numbers similar to the proposed change). He is very susceptible to one-two punches from Heroes, and spike damage from multiple bosses. That is just not something I want my Stone Armor to have to deal with. Earth's Embrace will help in this area, however spike damage is still a real threat without large amounts of resistance

You're right. In this case I am pointing to resistance and saying, "I like how Stone Armor plays currently, with its ability to gain high levels of resistance. Don't get rid of that, because that is what I prefer. Get rid of something else."

While a good example, I believe this situation is too different. With perma Domination there was a specific goal to meet that changed game play significantly. Gain enough recharge and you get this bonus.
Stone Armor can be improved in many different ways, there is no (to use a PvP term) flavor of the month in terms of a build with set bonuses.
I think a closer analogy to domination would be getting perma Eclipse on a Warshade. There is a specific goal to reach using recharge reduction set bonuses.

I'm with you with this point.


I'm afraid this is one area where I believe we won't see eye to eye on. Yes I agree that if there was an exploit or loophole that allowed a build to vastly outperform another it should be closed, but in my opinion getting IO's into your character is not a loophole.

Could you give an example of a situation of a situation from above?

I guess I took it the way I did because in the beginning of the thread there were several comments about 'Shield Defense can reach these levels of defense and has huge offense!'

Also he said "...protection levels shields can generate;" which to me says that he is looking what an IOed build can reach.

Sorry, what I meant to say what that at their peak sustainable survivability (In this case the Stone Armor would be in Granite debuffing its own damage) Willpower will do more damage, and Stone Armor will be more survivable. The point I was trying to get across is that to acquire that higher survivability, Stone Armor does have its drawbacks.

All other sets would would fall into the same boat. When all the sets are looked at from a peak sustained survivability standpoint, Stone Armor is number one. While in the state of peak sustained survivability, Stone armor also comes in with the least amount of damage. That to me shows a level of balance, though obviously not enough.

After reading Umbral's post I believe I understand where the disconnect between us is coming from.

Tier nine to me = Power in the ninth tier of a power set
Tier nine to you = God Mode

In that case I completely agree with you. Having Stone Armor's lesser armors and Granite Armor with its levels of defense and resistance still intact would be way overdoing it.

In my initial paragraph I said "That was obviously deemed overpowered, so instead of reducing the defense you got from PFF, they reduced the offensive capabilities of the power." I was showing that concessions were made to the offensive nature of the power rather than the defensive. I admit that I was thinking to myself reduced=nullified, but I didn't think I had to make that clear in the paragraph because that wasn't the point. Sorry for the confusion!

If we are looking at it from a Brute's perspective, than yes it’s pretty easy to overcome the -run speed as well as the -damage. I just wanted to point out that while Hasten will counteract Granite Armor's -recharge, it will only do that for 120 seconds. At which point Granite Armor gets its -recharge back hindering Hasten's recharge as well. Though if you consider buying things like Luck of the Gambler's easy, then the point is moot since all three can be IOed away.
I guess I can’t reasonably gauge the balance factor that -jump inflicts because teleport has always been my favorite travel power.

While I don’t agree entirely, I would understand if the drawbacks were intensified.



While I haven’t been annoyed by Stone Armor (most probably because of my personal play style) I do agree that annoyance should not be a large factor in balance.

P.S. Sorry for the long post delay, I have been tied up with things the past few days!

Correct. However the increase in defense does not make up for the loss of resistance because of this difference. Right now my Tanker will not die from getting hit by a defense debuff because I am either in Granite Armor or I can turn Granite Armor on if I need to; however, if Stone Armor were turned into a predominantly Defense oriented set then defense debuffs, Arch Villain spikes, things that I did not have to worry about before, are now a big problem. I have the advantages of both high defense and resistance now.

Is your stand that, this shift is just an outcome of the nerf?

My problem is not with your calculations my problem is with your exchange of resistance for defense. Sure you can take some power away from Granite Armor and transfer it to other powers, but we're left with too little resistance.

Why (Specific to IOs)? This game is balanced around SOs, and there are sets that can become, arguably, far more overpowered than a Stone tank. With SOs you cannot overcome Stone Armor's weaknesses solo.

While I realize Castle is not the best person to get information about game from, the part of his message I was referring to was the lack of caring about the levels of survivability Shield Defense can get.

If he doesn't care that Shields can get extraordinary levels of protection (I assuming from IOs), why would he care about Stone Armor doing the same thing?

I have designed other tanker builds that are nearly unkillable, just like Stone Armor, and they are not staring down the barrel of a nerf. In the case of Willpower the powers work together rather than outdoing each other like Stone Armor.

With SOs Willpower will have more damage and Stone Armor will have more survivability. It seems balanced to me. Yes changes on a power by power basis, like transferring defense from Granite Armor to the lesser armors, but overall the sets have strengths and weaknesses that set them apart from each other.

I still don't understand, why can't a tier nine be perma?!

Let's say we changed Granite Armor to:
-Mutually exclusive to all other toggles and powers
-Reduces defense by 10,000%
-Reduces resistance by 10,000%
-Reduces Hit Points to 1
-Reduces regeneration to 0%

Would it still be considered overpowered just because it is still a perma tier nine? Why is there no middle ground that we can find where Granite Armors bonuses are balanced around being perma?

Ex. Why do Fire Controllers get three pets? They're pets! They should only get one!
There are two responses to this.

• Three weaker pets are balanced against one stronger pet in other sets.
• Control sets are all different. Similarity would make things boring.

Semantics, they reduced them to zero.

• Are you saying that there is too much synergy between Stone Armor and Kinetics? That is a whole 'nother argument altogether about how archetypes interact with each other.
• I think you are vastly underestimating what it takes to bypass the downsides of Granite Armor (at least +30% run speed, +65% recharge, +30%, damage, and nothing can get past the -jump).

I was merely pointing out that balance can be found with toggle powers that provide high levels of defense. In the case of PFF for squishies, yes, it did mean the removal of offensive capabilities; however, tankers, brutes, stalkers, and scrappers were meant to have damage mitigation in the form of toggles.

True, however Resistance has its secondary effects. Letting you live through two consecutive hits the Random Number Generator decided you needed and not being susceptible to cascade failure due to lack of defense debuff resistance is something defense cannot offer.

In order to let people keep the set bonuses they are slotting in Granite Armor, I could see keeping a small amount of enhance-able defense; however, the other shields are now not mutually exclusive. Has too much really been changed if the only thing you need to do to get the levels of Defense that you had in Granite Amor back is turn on your other shields?

I'm not asking for something like:
Granite Armor gives a -100% recharge debuff
Rooted gives a +100% recharge buff

What I mean is easy to overcome using IOs. Nerf something about the power that can be made up if a person is willing to put the influence into it. Many power sets become overpowered when billions of influence is shunted into them, why should Stone Armor be any different.

(Especially considering this. Castle: I'm not too concerned about the protection levels shields can generate; it'll be needed.

Another alternative would be for the devs to add +resistance set bonuses. That way the slots that I used to use to increase my defense (no longer wanted due to the lesser shield buffs) can be used to increase the nerfed resistance.

Take power away from Granite Armor if you must, but take something away that people can IO back in.


Why?

This I can agree with; however I look at the situation this way.

• Unstoppable without a crash would be overpowered.
• Unstoppable (At 1/4th the +resistance it gives now) with the same crash would be underpowered.
  Therefore
• We know there is a middle ground where Unstoppable is balanced (Currently where it is now).

Granite Armor currently is overpowered. I personally don't think it is, however Castle doesn't agree. Therefore we need to nerf it enough that it is no longer overpowered.

Why does it have to lose being a toggle (effectively, even if it is still mechanically a toggle)? Why can't we debuff other effects like damage, Defense, etc...

Perma Elude? Yes that would be overpowered because the only downside to Elude is the crash, which doesn't amount to much other than being endurance-less for a few seconds while maintaining capped defense. Perma Granite Armor has -damage, -speed, -recharge, -jump, etc. Granite Armor pays for it's the ability to be perma.

Not all tier nine's have to be the same. (Note: I am not saying that is what you want, however I don't see why Granite Armor can't be perma if it has enough downsides to balance it.)

Is Personal Force Field overpowered? No its not, however it lets its user (A squishy no less!) maintain perma Elude levels of defense. Why is that ok? Because the downsides of PFF make up for the fact that it is perma. PFF is balanced around the fact that you can only affect yourself while in it. At one point you could have PFF on and attack. That was obviously deemed overpowered, so instead of reducing the defense you got from PFF, they reduced the offensive capabilities of the power.

Is Granite Armor's survivability bonus balanced by the fact that it reduces offensive capabilities? No? Then why not reduce the offensive capabilities more, rather than reduce the survivability bonuses?

While I don't like either idea, I have to say I'd prefer your first idea over this.

As long as the endurance cost wasn't so high that I couldn't IO it away, I would be for this.

My experiences differ from yours. I love Granite Armor on my brutes.

By turning Granite Armor on before entering a group I can build up fury from their initial assault. Once at full fury I can detoggle Granite Armor and lay waste to whatever is in my way. Even if the NPCs would take me down eventually, the huge damage I am putting out will defeat them long before they have a chance.

If the group is strong enough to take me down outside of Granite Armor before I can take them out, then I can take a few of them out with my fast recharging high damage power like Boxing, Jab, and Punch. After any troublesome enemies are out of the picture, I can then drop out of Granite Armor and finish off the group.

The ability to gain full fury in relative safety while still being able to toggle on Granite Armor as an 'oh shoot' button makes Granite Armor extremely desirable to me on a Brute.

I think it is relevant to note that the Tier Nines seem to fall into four categories:

Powerful-This category has abilities which increase survivability greatly, last for a long duration, have a large crash and take a long time to recharge (These are all relative to Numerable).
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Energy Aura: Overload
Electric Armor: Power Surge
Super Reflexes: Elude
Ninjitsu: Kuji-in Retsu

Numerable-This category has abilities which have affects similar to those in the Powerful category, however the pros (Survivability and Duration) and cons (Crash and Long Recharge) are both lessened creating a weaker shield that is active and useable more often.
Shield Defense: One with the Shield
Willpower: Strength of Will
Regeneration: Moment of Glory

Resurrection-This category has abilities which resurrect the user enabling them to get back into the fight immediately after death.
Dark Armor: Soul Transfer
Fire Armor: Rise of the Phoenix

Miscellaneous-This category has abilities which do not fall into other categories.
Ice Armor: Hibernate
Stone Armor: Granite Armor

There are a couple of things that I do not like about your suggestion.

Reduction of Granite's resist to 17.5% is unacceptable to me.

Get rid of the defense altogether, increase the movement penalty, keep the damage and recharge penalty, get rid of the recovery bonus, whatever, but leave the resistance granted from Granite Armor the same. The reason that I chose Stone Armor was due to the high peak sustainable survivability that one can get from it. If you must lower something (In this case you have to in order to allow stacking without insane levels of survivability) then lower things that can easily be make up for. I can regain the lost defense from set bonuses, I can choose to be a brute so that fury makes up for the damage debuff, however I cannot get more resistance (above and beyond Stone Skin, Tough, and Granite Armor) from any other self-gained sources (Yes I can get some from set bonuses, but nowhere near the amount of defense bonuses I can acquire). Getting rid of the Resistance bonus is far too large of a survivability nerf, which defense does not make up for (I realize in your model statistically it does, however in reality it does not).

Automatic detoggling is something I am against for many reasons.

• I am one of the few that love the look of Granite Armor. I do not want to be constantly thrown in and out of it.
• Detoggling powers after a set amount of time really annoys me. While still aggravating, things like Hibernate and Phase Shift are on thirty second timers making it a bit easier to keep track of. Something on a 120 second timer is a lot harder to keep track of and this alone would kill the set for me. If it is going to detoggle I need something to show a countdown.
• I would not be able to keep peak performance at all times. One of the many reasons I chose Stone Armor was due to the fact that I did not have to worry about Granite Armor dropping ergo dropping my survivability. If I wanted peak instantaneous performance I would have chosen Invulnerability, however I wanted a high peak sustainable performance and a cool looking suit of armor.

My point is:

A) An Invuln + Buffs can tank Lord Recluse
B) My Willpower gets similar numbers to an Invuln + Buffs
C) My Willpower can tank Lord Recluse

At least that is what I see on paper.


My Stone/Stone tank did solo tank Recluse at one point. Since you're confident he can't now, something must have changed. I can't find out what has changed (though I must admit my search fu=teh suck) however I am curious. What outside buffs would our Stone/Stone tanks need to stand up to Lord Recluse (Assuming the Stone/Stone is using SOs)?

My Stone/Stone Tank has solo tanked him and an army of his spawned bosses before, but that was a while ago.

I also just recently was on a Master of the Statesman Taskforce where our tank was an SOed Invuln/Super Strength. All he needed was a powerboosted Fortitude and Adrenaline Boost and he could stand there all day spamming Taunt. His defense and resistance to smashing and lethal damage were only slightly more than what I am getting in my build (Differences are 8% and 18% respectively) and I have 350ish more Hit Points than he did. His regeneration was significantly higher than mine; however, I don't exactly know how much 600% more regeneration will affect the situation. I also am unsure how to calculate the impact Siphon Life will have.