Clintonian

Awesome post, but 2 things:

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First off, some unpleasantries; Paying subscribers requesting acknowledgment of issues and soliciting feedback is no where in the same vicinity as crying.

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First four definitions of "cry" at dictionary.com:

1. To sob or shed tears because of grief, sorrow, or pain; weep.
2. To call loudly; shout.
3. To utter a characteristic sound or call. Used of an animal.
4. To demand or require immediate action or remedy: grievances crying out for redress.

Only number 1 refers to tears. The context of his usage of "cry" seemed pretty clear to me that it was not meant as an insult. Players have not factually been insulted by Statesman in this post - they have misunderstood his choice of words. Hurray for drama.

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This thread is located in the Tanker forum: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...Number=3345605 plus a bunch of unnecessary stuff that makes everyone have to scroll left and right to read posts

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There are two windows that pop up when you insert a link. The first is for the web address. The second is for a label (hopefully short) for the link that will be visible.

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As for my comment concerning Clinton, I wasnt saying he hasn't provided info for the forum community to read. But alas, till CoV is officially ready for release, anything that is said is just .. hmm.. not speculation because some does come from resources..but everything is subject to change. Even if said info comes from the Dev's...everything is subject to change until CoV is ready for release...and heck...as with any online game, things are always subject to change after it's released. That is the appeal with online games, nothing is constant, nothing is ever the same.. things are always happening and changing.

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You're right. I give up. Not on the game. Science. It's all just theories anyway. Evolution, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, genetics, medicine. You can make citations and tinker around a bit, but "things are always happening and changing." You just can't put any faith in it.

All-in-all, a great third post except for this line:

Okay...sigh..going to try to explain this one more time for the small minded people out there that can't seem to grasp this concept.
Nice. Because it's all about readers being lummoxes and not the writer being obtuse or incomplete in his rhetoric - or people having an honest difference of opinion. Just saying.

About a month ago, maybe a bit more, it was Battlegrounds and a few more new end-game instances. Instance being zones to anyone who hasn't played it. About a week or two ago, it was another new end game area as well as a new...hmm...reward area is all I can think of to call it. These were all done by patching.
These were major updates..major expansions if you will.
Yes, this was understood all along. I think it's awesome that the latest manifestation of a popular franchise is capitalized enough to be able to roll out updates so often. If CoH had moved a couple of million retail units, I'd expect it to do the same. Thus begins the building of the argument that CoH/CoV is niche audience game that does not have the capitalization nor the revenue stream to support doing things just like WoW. I'm starting to get it that you don't understand that CoH has one tenth the subscription base of WoW and therefore doesn't have the flexibility or funding to do everything that bigger games do. Is that your fault or my fault? No. But that's the situation and nothing's gonna change it anytime soon, because a quality game is important but people just seem naturally inclined to play wizards & warriors or sci-fi shooters more than anything else.

What Dark and I are trying to explain to you all, whom seem to ignore the actual words and in your brain Assume what we are trying to say, is this. And don't get me wrong, this is a failing of anyone online.
CoV is basically an expansion to CoH. Anyone not having CoH can buy it, and still have access to CoH areas, even though their character is a Villian. No..not all areas...but they get most everything.
You lost us again, and it's not about our cognitive dissonance. CoV is set in a seperate zone cluster cut off from CoH. CoV subscribers will have to buy CoH to PvP against heroes and will not have access to the current CoH zones regardless, though I did read recently that one CoH PvP content zone is opening up. The ATs and powersets of CoH are unique to CoH and unavailable to CoV subscribers, though a fair chunk of the individual powers are shared (A fire blast is a fire blast is a fire blast...). A lot of the game mechanics will be the same. The graphics engine has more options, but is essentially the same. It has the same lack of crafting (thank gawd). I acknowledge this. I'm not crazy.

Saying that buying CoV gets you 'most everything' that CoH has, however, is such a superficial and broad statement. It's almost as broad as saying that all MMOs are the same game. Sorta true in a very big-picture perspective, sorta not when you dig a little deeper.

If CoV was a different game, then those who purchase CoV and play Villians would not be able to interact with CoH in any form. They would have their own servers. They may have the same maps, but someone playing a Hero will not come face to face with someone playing a Villian. If they came across 'heroes' it would be like us coming across archvillians. They would be NPC's.
I'm so lost now. Unless I've totally misread all the articles, previews, and dev posts for over a year now, what you just described is very close to what is actually going to be released. So by your definition now, CoV is a different game.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeee!! !!!!

As for what the big deal is and why it's sad when CoH players will still get updates to their game when CoV comes out...as I've tried to make clear before...is that there are going to be those out there that HAVE CoH that WANT CoV to play as well, and can't afford to purchase it or can't afford the additional fee.
I can't afford to play CoH/CoV and WoW and MxO (at least my girlfriend put the kibosh on it). Feel sorry for me, yet? No? You shouldn't anyway. I don't really feel sorry for people who can't afford to play even just CoH. It's just a game.

On that note...lets say you who are reading this has a lvl 50 character that you've worked hard on building. Are you going to be so willing to give up that beloved character and cancel that account... delete that character just to switch to CoV? Most will say no, though I'm sure there will be some that play CoH that will cancel their accounts and change to just CoV and vice versa.
Why in Yahweh's cousin's name are you deleting characters to play CoV? Are you insane? Cryptic's servers will hold onto those characters in their database for years so you can pick them back up whenever you feel like it. Swap back and forth between - by your definition - the different games monthly, quarterly, yearly. If you want to switch between the games on a daily or weekly basis, though, you'll be dinged for the $0-5 extra.

That isn't the point...the point is for those of us that have multiple accounts and want CoV, or even multiple CoV's, we shouldn't be asked to create and be charged for new Accounts. Cryptic/NCSoft should have it all linked together, so that my login name for CoH can be used to open CoV. No...the characters won't be the same, but still..one account. And no additional fees.
This a fair point. I'd probably rather that scenario as well, all things being equal. I refer back to my earlier point that this game, while not being made a poor company in need of charity, is not being made by company better capitalized with a more generous revenue stream.

I'm sry, not even Clint whom thinks that he is Mr. know-it-all can say.
I'm sure I come off as a know-it-all sometimes, but at least I document where I'm coming from with citations. I think I'm way better than the average poster as far as declaring where I'm making suppositions. I'm eager to gobble up new info and reformulate my opinions.

He can only guess or assume or hope or even quote what officials have hinted at before. Until Pre-Orders come out, or until Cryptic/NCSoft make an official announcement, we wont know.
'He can only quote'? Damn me for trying, I guess. Wait a sec. Don't tell me you're trying to make an obtuse statement that they plan on doubling the fee for CoH+CoV. Please tell me you haven't gone completely round the bend. Now you've just made me punch-drunk silly. I'm grinning now.

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As for it being sad? If one wants to play that content they have to go Buy that content...hmm...more money outta pocket when the economy is like it is...for some getting CoV isn't an option or won't be.. for awhile. So yes, that is sad.

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NCSoft/Cryptic didn't invent 'content for pay', nor is it the only one out there doing it. CoH will continue to be updated regularly at no extra cost - where's the tragedy?

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But I know from experience playing many online games, that there are large patches that come out that are just that..patches..and they expand on exisiting content. WoW is a perfect example since they implemented many new areas with a patch. Players weren't asked to go out and Buy a new WoW expansion Pack to get the content.

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That's what's so frustrating reading your posts and trying to figure out what you're trying to say. CoH has the same 'patches' that WoW has that require no extra cash and expand the environment and gameplay. If you think WoW won't come out with a paid expansion or somesuch at some point... well, once again we'll have to agree to disagree.

Two niggle points, but otherwise a fine post.

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I have to agree with Darklite, that if NCSoft is going to make the CoH player not only pay for CoV, but also a second monthly fee, fulll or otherwise, is absurd and shows that all they care about is getting money...

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Actually, in logical terms that can be proven, the hypothetical CoH+CoV fee raise only allows for the possibility that NCSoft/Cryptic are venal profiteers using the facts we have at our disposal. It doesn't prove it. We all can agree to disagree on the companies' motivations.

Also, "but also a second monthly fee, fulll or otherwise"? Really? Why not just say, "full, quadruple, in blood, requiring proof of inbreeding... or otherwise" while you're at it? I hate to harp on this but it's just so loony. It's "otherwise". That's official. Subject locked off. Citations from 4 different sources. LOL.

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Players of CoH will still have to go buy CoV if they want that content...sad..but I'm so used to it now with all the online games I play that it doesn't phase me anymore.

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Why so sad? Cryptic provides plenty of content updates for no additional charge. CoV is optional for people that enjoy CoH. This is the USA the last time I checked. It's not illegal or immoral to expect compensation for services rendered.

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I dont consider the updates as an exspansion to me if you are buying a CD/DVD that should be an exspansion.

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Well, several of the CoH Issues singly would have half-filled a cdr. Individual compilation disks of the 2004 Issues and 2005 Issues each would have filled a cdr. Why are you hung up on physical distribution? It's archaic in a world growing increasingly broadband.

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I'm probably being a pain but I've played other MMORPG's and this is the first one thats run this way to me.

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See my earlier comment on experimentation. I'm not sure if this will work out for the company and for the consumer as well as some expect, but it is interesting and ultimately changeable after the fact.

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AFAIK (and I am not an expert) CoV will be the first game that allows you to play the bad guy. That in itself will bring in lots of people.

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That's not necessarily true. Many MMOs have opposing factions. What this structure does is allow the dev teams to tailor their content roughly in parallel, providing an opportunity for good creative tension between the games. It's also likely a result of of being less capitalized than the spate of big-budget, licensed franchise MMOs that have come and continue to come out. It's an experiment in MMO game form and business plan. I think it's fascinating on paper. I can't wait to see how it plays out in practice.

You know the monosyllabic dev-speak Statesman uses sometimes that frustrates players? Let that be your guide as far as CoV closed beta comments. Here are some sample phrases:

"I'm enjoying the beta."
"I hear your concerns about ____ and I can say that they have been addressed in some fashion."
"Soon."

I know from being in CoH beta that it's probably just best to be silent about it on the CoH forum because the slope is so slippery. There will be plenty of people to chat with inside the closed beta forum.

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BTW, I was going to ask this sooner, but if CoV forums don't open during beta, could you keep this thread stickied so beta-ers can post stuff about the game here?

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This section will likely remain as-is during CoV beta, but discussion of the details of the active closed beta prior to it going to 'open beta' status will be verboten. Word to the wise.

Early indications are that either that a new zone in Paragon City will open up to CoV action or an existing zone will be repurposed for CoV. (That's actually a very recent revelation.) The devs have gone on record a couple of times stating plainly that player-Villains will not be walking around the streets of Paragon City, nor will player-Heroes be walking around much of The Rogue Isles.

Now the current situation could evolve over the course of beta, and they could also make outdoor instanced missions into Paragon for player-Villains, but that's how things are right now with what has been mentioned in articles and forum posts.

This is true - and thanks for the material you sent me via PM - but remember that this thing is a primer not an encyclopedia.

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prim·er Pronunciation Key (prmr)
n.

1. An elementary textbook for teaching children to read.
2. A book that covers the basic elements of a subject.

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I'm not trying to compete with the CGW article or the CoV website. This is a crib sheet with contextual information to answer the basics in a newb-friendly way. If I wanted to, I could probably build an entire multi-section site at this point with what has been leaked about CoV. As it is, there are several bits in here that haven't been covered by the mags (and I know for a fact that one or two articles have cribbed notes from previous versions of this Primer - sneaky monkeys!).

I wish I had the time and energy to make a comprehensive site about CoV, but I already spend too much time writing about the game when I should be playing the game.

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The devs said a $3-5 increase to pay for the extra GMs and other employees they have to hire to maintain COV, and make new updates for it. The increased fee is to pay for increased expenses. they could cut the fee somewhat if they didn't make the big updates free.

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This is fundamentally correct, but I'd like to offer a clarification (warming up for the 'Farewell Tour' edition of the Last CoV Primer ). The hypothetical increase is technically $0-5. Call me a pollyanna, but until the final word comes out, I'll still pin my hopes on the possibility of a zero dollars increase for CoH+CoV. Not for me, really, but for others who are enthusiastic for CoH+CoV and are already at the breaking price point right now.

I think the idea of tossing around the idea of a slight increase of the fee for CoH+CoV came from the reality that a certain amount of the monthly fee for each game is roughly pegged to the budget for Issues. If a player subscribes to CoH or CoV singley, hypothetically, a couple of dollars a month is thrown at the building of something like an Issue 2 or Issue 3. I'll call that the 'update fee' because we all know that thrice-yearly updates are not exactly free. The rest is thrown to NCSoft, infrastructure/maintenance, and customer service. If a player subscribes to CoH+CoV and both games are each updated as just CoH has been thus far, CoH+CoV players are getting much more bang for their buck if there is no overall fee increase. Cryptic doubles their work for those subscribers without doubling the 'update fee' portion of the monthly subscription. Of course the dev team could water down the updates - especially if they are blended - and keep the same static monthly we have now for both games. That'll mean some paring of the staff after CoV's launch to maintain their budget concerns unless CoV sales are just unreal.

Just my thoughts as they continue to coalesce. We'll see how it goes.

Oh, and to CatMan, I'm intending a 'Farewell Tour' for the CoV Primer only. This little project of mine was just something I did for myself once I got the CoV bug that I thought I'd share. I also wanted to devlop a tool that would cut down on the repetition in my postings (failure! ). During beta and after launch, I'm sure the more compulsive fans will dissect the details much better than I have the time for, so the Primer will become a vestigial thread that will unsticky and fade away. *sniffle*

I will be around for at least another year, for better or worse.

Dang! I got a PM from CatMan about updating this Primer a few days ago and I was like, "Wha?!? What part of Last CoV Primer don't you understand?" However, I'm bummed that all the E3 reports I linked to are kaput in addition to all the info I missed that came out in CGW literally the day after I posted the OP.

I'm hip deep in some business in TX until around the end of July, but I'll see if I can whip up a 'Farewell Tour' edition of the (for real) Last CoV Primer. It'll be tricky because I'll have to get that CGW issue back from my brother and all my CoV notes and saved threads are in CA.

We'll see...

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you know that is right but hey your probaly a geek ok im a 14 year old and has a part time jod i dont make money like you and do have a life out side a game i spend like an hour a day playing the game couz i dont live and breath coh so dont take this the wrong way but thats the way i fell this is for darl cowl

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You have a fair response, shadow. Understand that, because you have limited time and cash fluidity, you might have to make some some choices that some others don't. However, I'm thinking the fee situation - however it plays out - is not as dire as some imagine. Even if you decide not to have both games active all the time, the option remains for you to switch back and forth from villainy to heroism and back on a monthly or bi-monthly basis. Try and hold out on your final judgement until the formal announcement is made, then unload with both barrels if you have to you!

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The post 50’s blues: Mr. Emmert mentioned several different possibilities for post the 50’s game. Going back and doing missions with a sidekick so that the sidekick gets more xp.

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Just to clarify: I didn't say this. No plans.

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This is reassuring. Perhaps have a seminar and take a look at that Suggestion forum? There are tons of awesome ideas floating about there that you could at least acknowledge or consider, States. Powersets and all that good stuff are in there. Take a look. Please?

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You looked at a vague statement, read what you wanted to in it (which happened to be not what he meant), then got in a bit of neener-neener douchebaggery condescension.

Kudos!

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Nice hyperbole. Hate to break it to you but for both I3, I4 and now I5 I have been sitting... for months.... waiting for the next issue for more content.

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I'll own up to some playful exaggeration on occassion. I assume most people can tell the difference between me being 'clever' and me keeping to just the facts.

On another note, if there was nothing you considered worthwhile new content in I3 or I4, then you must just be burnt out on the game all-together. Obviously, the fee question is not the problem, the whole game and the direction it's in is not to your liking. The 'CoV Primer' was not written to appeal to that mindset.

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Simply put unless CoH and CoV both went to monthly updates with the releases staggered every 2 weeks your proposed problem will not be releazed by the majority of players.

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As I said, The 'CoV Primer' was not written to appeal to that mindset. I question your grasp on what the mindset is for "the majority of players", as it does not reflect my experience in-game playing in pick-up teams. Maybe things are different on your server.

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I was wondering are you ever going to make the base an option for the lone hero?

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When heroes set up a supergroup (SG), the SG is actually a SG of one person until the SG creator starts inviting other players. Following that line of logic, my understanding is that bases will be available for the solo hero, but the expense will seem greater because SG base costs will be spread over the the entire SG roster via a mechanism yet to be disclosed.

The option may also exist for heroes to create a personalized lair even though they belong to a populated SG that has it's own SG base. I'm sure this will come up and be looked at during the beta process. Good question.

Yes.

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Also in case you guys didnt know, we players call this kinda stuff CONTANT

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I normally wouldn't mention this but it's 'content'. It's really distracting when you use 'contant' several times and put it in all caps while scolding.

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To imply that we as a group are not worthy of SG base after paying cryptic for 2 copies of the game and for 2 account for over a year (and thats just me and not the other 10 ppl in our sg) would be like begging us to leave the game.

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Why are you making this a personal thing? The dev team has 'implied' nothing of the sort.

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To say that if we want this feature we have to go out and buy 2 more games(my gf and i) and pay for 2 more plaync accounts is just gonna cost them customers

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Since this isn't what Cryptic/NCSoft is doing, I think you should do some more reading on this topic.

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Hmm I though Statesman [censored] in the coh comic? does the comic story affect the real gaming experiance?

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For spoiler's sake (something you should be more considerate of ), I'll say something happened in the recent comic, but there has been no confirmation that anything will keep Statesman from making an appearance in CoV. In other news, the game and the comic are not tied slavishly to the same continuity. There will be inconsistancies, just hopefully none too distracting.

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Jetpacks are currently not wanted by the Devs at the moment.

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/sign

A certain dev has had no desire to implement all sorts of little things: cutscenes, destructible terrain (though I'm partially in agreement on this), mini-games, puzzles... and jetpacks. This is starting to change as other things this dev does like fall through the cracks.

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Oh, BTW, did we ever get info on whether the Villain powers were Lvl 1 or later? I know Clint's FAQ said "from the beginning", but I also thought that "No powers at the beginning" was still on...


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I believe it the "endowment of powers sometime after level 1" idea was shelved for the standard CoH character creation, but I can't recall a specific comment to that effect off the top of my head. Add it to the "Ask Recluse" list...

It moves one facet of the game into something that more traditional money/time-sink games have. It doesn't change one bit of CoH that we already have access to right now. You don't want to pay some undetermined amount of rent for your base for a couple of months? Don't. It will likely be there if you change your mind. (With the exception of 'Items of Power', I would imagine.)

Consider the "rent" as doing community service for your city in return for a base. Right now, we're all freelance temps who have flexible hours and neglible obligations to the city. In return for your community service obligation, the city government will make available space for headquarters and new access to useful tools and services.

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Don't you all think this is a little reactionary? Maybe we should wait to see how the plan will work before getting too up in arms about it...

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/sign

In my limited communication with Lord_Recluse about various features in CoV, rent seemed to be very flexible factor that will get tweaked over the course of beta. He also gave me the impression that players would essentially get locked out of their base if they couldn't make rent, not that the base disappeared and the items get auctioned off.

As far as having access to creating bases without purchasing CoV, there's been a lot of conflicting info on this. It's not a lock that CoH-only subscribers will be able to make bases. Perhaps visit them or be part of an SG that has one, but maybe not be able to create/design a base or participate in raids.

It's really a 'To Be Announced' situation and the dev team is well aware of player sentiment.

There's that. I also avoided specific power descriptions, zone names and descriptions, and I would have avoided proper NPC names other than Lord Recluse but I wanted to give people a visual crib sheet for ATs that they could use viewing the promo vids. That stuff is better for more specialized threads. You, and the other people linked at the the top of the thread, handle the non-macro issues better than I can or have the desire to do so. We're really a month or two out from having a 'Guide to Guides' post for CoV gameplay. For the people older than 25, that's a blink of the eyes.