Chriffer
-
Posts
147 -
Joined
-
Quote:Please don't use the word Demand then.Originally Posted by UberGuy
...It's not about supply and demand in the sense you are describing.... -
Quote:Originally Posted by forbin_project
Players will start looking for the best bargain rather than placing a high bid and walking away.ContradictionQuote:Originally Posted by forbin_project
You'll see people selling things for 2, 3, 4 times the amount listed at the market because there will always be people that have to have something immediately.
Players look for a bargain. Instead of paying 2, 3, or 4 times the price off the market they will place a bid on the market for maybe 1.2, or 1.1 times the price.
Competition is the basis of economics and Supply and Demand. When buyers compete for few items they raise their bid price. -
Quote:Mathematically, reducing endurance costs of most used power click powers (attacks, holds, etc.) is almost always more effective..Originally Posted by Zamuel
Is it generally considered better to build for increasing maximum endurance, faster recovery, or reducing actual endurance costs. Why?
-
Quote:I don't even know where to begin. Do I have your permission to e-mail this statement to some economics professors? The statement you wrote contains nothing that requires City of Heroes knowledge so they should be able to readily understand what you are saying. I will post their responses as I get them. Feel free to e-mail this yourself, of course. Please share the responses.Originally Posted by Roderick
Technically, what they're saying isn't "demand is going up", but "demand is moving from one item to another, because the one people want isn't there".
Think of it this way:
Twenty people go to the store, all wanting the same pair of Nikes. The store only has 3 pairs of Nikes. It has dozens of pairs of generic brand shoes, however. Rather than first-come, first-served, the store hands a ticket to each person, and randomly selects who gets the shoes. As new people arrive, looking for the same shoes, they are also given tickets, and could, in fact, get the shoes before people who have been waiting longer. Eventually, people will give up, and go buy the generic shoes that they don't have to wait for. The end result: Demand has gone down for the item with low supply, and up for the item with high supply.
If there were equal supply across the board, then it wouldn't work this way, but a shortage of one item, and an excess of another WILL move the demand from the unavailable item to the available one.
*EDIT* The basics are the Demand is there. Demand is a curve that represents how many people are willing to pay what price. There are still however many people willing to pay that price. -
No. Supply and Demand do not work that way.
What you are saying is that "When Supply goes up Demand goes up."
From economics: "When Demand goes up prices goes up."
From economics: "When prices goes up Supply goes up."
One of those three statements cannot be true. These three statements, together, don't work. Price, Supply and Demand don't all rise together indefinitely.
If you believe that when Supply goes up Demand goes up you need to throw away every law, every facet, and every concept of economics. -
Quote:That is not how demand works.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It's less you must buy IOs at 50 and more the largest supply of IOs is at 50 so most of the demand is there.
Perhaps what you meant to say was "The largest supply of IOs is there so most of the transactions are there." -
Quote:How and why does a fire/fire Brute do something a ss/fire brute cannot? What is differentiating the fire/fire Brute from an ss/fire?Originally Posted by KillfanB
I rolled a SS/Fire tank and I don't see how everyone rolls this combo on brutes. Can someone explain?
My fire/fire brute is very fun and I think better tank SS/ because it can solo AV's + Farms.
What do y'all think? -
Quote:I am unsure how two people reaching a mutually acceptable transaction both are "screwed".Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
ok, you obviously still do not understand how this will hurt the market. go ahead and list for 1, now everyone will be to insure they get the best price until they get down to the low ball bids. now, when people see things selling for 1 guess what they will bid, 1. with the system that we have now, everyone has a chance at getting a good price. with your system, everyone gets screwed. this idea will effectively drive everyone away from the market. good luck getting what you want then.
Players do post items for sale at a very low amount in the current market.
My example does not suggest that every player will post their item for a very low amount.
If you need further explanation you are going to have to ask a "market guru".
*EDIT* I have decided to compose a list of possible "market gurus" for you to ask about this suggestion in hopes that they may be able to educate your opinion on the subject.
Explaining to them City of Heroes and its market and this suggestion may be too time consuming. If they are willing to learn about the market and how it works to answer this question then that would be fantastic.
However, I suspect they would not be able to. I suggest asking them "What would a marketplace be like where buyers and sellers discussed purchase price? Would that market function?"
Here's the list:
http://econ-www.mit.edu/faculty/
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty
http://econ.as.nyu.edu/object/econ.staff
http://economics.uchicago.edu/faculty.shtml
http://www.swarthmore.edu/x15604.xml
I can provide more if necessary. -
Quote:1. Character can only hold 2 Billion Inf. There is no denying this fact. This fact is the reason why prices on the market cannot go above 2 Billion. Yes, players can get around this limitation by placing money in alternative places. However, at one time, a character can only hold 2 BIllion Inf. That is what I said. That is what I will continue to say. That is the truth of the matter.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Smurphy hasn't posted in this thread. Unless you are implying that Smurphy is posting on a secondary account or has changed his forum name. And if that's the case it means Chriffer is merely trolling the thread because if Criffer=Smurphy then he's been lying about
1. Not knowing how you can use the market as a bank to store influence over 2 billion on a character.
2. That players often do personal trades outside the market. (in fact I think Smurphy is someone that actually offers those services to help players with cross faction inf problems)
3. Not understanding that if fewer items get put up for sale on the market the prices for those items will go up.
2. I do not question that players can do trade off market. I question the reason that players will do trades off market when they could do the same trades on market.
3. I have explicitly said that "When Supply goes down prices goes up."
I have responded to all of your posts with logic, reason, information, links, graphs, examples, statistics and honest inquiries for you to present your opinion. You have not countered my examples, attempted to understand my points, given your own examples.
How could you accuse me of ignoring your posts?
You are either blatantly wrong, blatantly lying, or blatantly trolling.
I no longer have any respect for your opinion. -
Quote:I have a large amount of trouble understanding your logic. Here are some concepts I thought I read in your post that I find contradictory, baffling or strange.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
My objection to the suggestion is not that it makes the market more like a store because it doesn't, it will simply make player's regard it more as a store (and maybe change prices a bit for those who do regard ti that way).
I think that devs implemented a double blind auction system for the market because they recognized that a store style auction house (such as the one in WoW) greatly favors marketeers. If you want to get good deals with a store style system then you need to spend time camping the auction house instead of playing the game. With a double blind system you can get good deals while engaging in other activities (either playing the game or off doing things in real life).
Adding a visible BBO to the market interface encourages people to regard it more as a store and less as a consignment house which in turn means they end up paying more for items than they should. I have no problem with adding more information to the interface (even if it probably would decrease my profits) but lets add information that attempts to educate players as to the nature of prices on the auction house rather than information that encourages them to use it in a way that results in them getting poor prices. My recommendation is to add more time data, a high/low prices for the last 24 hours and week would probably be a good starting point, not perfect by any means but a good place to start.
1) It's not more like a store, but players will think of it like a store.
This statement simply befuddles me. I don't understand the relevance of this statement. Why does it matter what players think of the store? How do their thoughts actually make any concrete effects?
2) It's not more like a store, but in a store-like system you have to spend more time at the market to find deals.
Why did you say anything that has to do with a store-like system if you said it's not a store-like system?
3) It would be harder to find deals, but easier for marketeers.
My understanding of marketeering is to buy low and sell high. "Easier to find deals" to me means "easier to buy low." Not displaying the lowest list price means "easier to sell high". Thus, in the current system it is easier to buy low and easier to sell high. Yet, displaying information would make it harder to find deals and easier for marketeers?!
4) It's not more like a store, but players will pay more.
Some players will pay more. Some players will pay less. Prices won't spike as high nor will they fall as low. This stability will occur because players will know when and when not to list for 1 and players will know how to not overbid.
5) Showing the price players would get encourages players to get a worse price.
This statement completely stumps me. By learning more about the market and prices a player is hindered? -
tl:dr
I believe I have adequately demonstrated in the following post that this suggestion:
1) Does not cause transactions to go off market
2) Does not eliminate the concept of "highest bid to lowest sell"
3) Does not hinder sellers who cannot afford high list fees in greater manner than they are hindered now.
4) Does not cause prices to rise due to decreased supply
If you unsigned this post for one of the above reasons please reconsider your position or refute my claims.
Quote:I thought I had provided reasoning and counter-examples to all of your points. I will now make an attempt to go through all your posts again, read all of your reasons why this suggestion is problematic, and address them one by one.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I've explained several times, you have chosen to ignore it.
I fail to comprehend how this "screws over that seller." A seller listed his item for that price. The seller's act of listing his item for that price is the seller saying "I am willing to accept this price."Quote:This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller.
This statement is not true. Under the original poster's suggestion a seller could get the value of the item he posted. The seller would simply have to look at the current "best bid" price and see if it was acceptable. If that bid price was acceptable the seller could list the item for any amount, for example 1, and the item would sell to that current highest bidder.Quote:For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth.
This "see the highest current bid" and sell if you want to is the key difference between the current system and a system that displays highest bid and lowest list amounts. I explained, with a decision tree, the differences in this post and there is further elaboration on the issue in this post. The summary of the posts are in the current system a seller who is unable to afford list prices has to gamble when he sells his item. He doesn't know if the current highest bid is high or low. If the system is changed to display the highest bid the seller can know for sure that he will sell his item for the price he wants despite listing it for a small amount.
Your first post contained 3 points: 1) Defeats the purpose of highest bid going to lowest sale, 2) screws over sellers, 3) screws over players who can't afford list fees.
1) Incorrect. A seller can still list his item very low and know he will receive the highest current bid... thus low sale going to high bid.
2) Incorrect. A seller can set any list price he chooses. The act of setting a list price means the price is acceptable to the seller.
3) Incorrect. A seller who can't afford list fees can view the highest current bid and can accept it.
I am going to attempt to summarize this post into my own words. Please correct me if I am mistaken or if I am misrepresenting your post.Quote:Player A gets a drop worth 200 million say a Ragnarok but he only has enough inf onhand to as for 25 million. If he puts it on the market under this suggestion he's going to lose 175 million. Guess what, he isn't going to put it on the market then. Instead he'll sell it to a private party.
This will have a negative impact on the market because people will be withholding their items and as the supply dries up the prices on the market will soar because it will now be harder for players to find what they want to buy. This is simple supply and demand.
To make matters worse, out of market trading between players will increase dramatically as the people who aren't selling their drops at the market sell their loot in private transactions. You'll see people selling things for 2, 3, 4 times the amount listed at the market because there will always be people that have to have something immediately.
You'll probably even see posts where people are auctioning their drops. This will lead to animosity when the inevitable happens and someone that desperately wants something can't get it because he's on the seller's ignore list.
1) Sellers who cannot afford listing prices get "screwed over" and won't list their items on the market.
2) Prices go up because there are less sellers at the market.
3) Items will not be for sale, or they will be hard to find/buy immediately, on the market because there are less sellers at the market.
4) More transactions will occur off market due to the difficulty of using the market.
5) Prices off the market will be 2, 3, 4, times higher than the original prices in the current system.
I have already explained that the first point is incorrect and thus the rest would not follow. Arguendo, if the first did occur the rest would still not occur. I need to first make a seemingly tangential statement that a reader should keep in mind as he evaluates what would occur in such scenarios. The statement is so important I will state it three times in different ways: The displaying of best list and best bid prices would not affect how many items are found by players. In other words, the same amount of players are still finding the same amount of items. The same amount of items still exist.
2) I agree that less players selling their items would cause prices to rise. There is a question of what they do with those items that they do not sell which should be kept in mind as we go over the rest of the points.
3) This statement depends on how many items are actually sold on the market. A rise in prices does not necessarily mean a decrease in availability. For example, at one point in time immediately after the release of Issue 16 respec recipes sold for roughly 70M. Currently, they sell for roughly 200M. At the current time and at the previous time Respec recipes were available for sale. Of course, so many players could refuse to sell their item via the market that finding one for sale at all, at any price, would be impossible.
4) Incorrect. There is no difficulty in using the market. One of the facets of Supply and Demand is "When Supply goes down, Price goes up."
The key things to see in this graph are the words "Initial equilibrium" in blue, on the right, the red words "Supply curve shifts left" in the upper right, and the words "new equilibrium" in red in the center. The most important point is "new equilibrium". Prices will stabilize on the market at their new equilibrium point when there is a decrease in Supply. I will explain, in detail, why this occurs. In the current system prices are generally stable. Players have, at minimum, a general idea of what something is worth. Prices are generally "in the ballpark" of Equilibrium Price. Now we will assume, as your reasoning suggests, that Supply will lower. When there are more items willing to be bought at a price than items willing to be sold at a price that price is considered "below Equilibrium Price." When there is a decrease in Supply more items are willing to be bought at that price than willing to be sold at that price. Buyers will compete for the items available and raise their bids. As Supply decreases price increases. You acknowledge that there will be players willing to pay the prices when you said, I quote, "because there will always be people that have to have something immediately."
Price will continue to rise until there is a price where there are an equal number of items willing to be bought as willing to be sold. This price is the new Equilibrium Price. Sellers can list their items on the market for this price and some buyers will buy their items for this price. Therefore the market is still able to function. Buyers are likely to be able to find items for sale on the market and sellers are able to find willing buyers quickly at a price somewhat close to the last 5 prices.
5) Incorrect. If players are willing to buy and sell off the market they are willing to buy and sell on the market. Bidders will bid up the price on the market until Equilibrium is achieved. I explained how unavailability has occured in City of Heroes and been corrected by rising prices in this post where I discussed Luck of the Gamblers.
This post is difficult to understand out of context. I will translate this post to be "There are PvP IOs that sell for much more than 2 Billion off market." Please let me know if that is an unfair representation of your post.Quote:Players that "have to have it now" are currently buying those purple IO's outside the market from individual players for up to 3 times the market price.
As I have explained in other posts the fact that some items sell for 2 Billion off market is irrelevant to this discussion. The displaying of the highest bid amount and the lowest list amount creates no changes nor has any affect on these items. These items act in a manner that is no different whether or not this information is displayed. Currently, those items sell for over 2 Billion and the market is unable to properly handle them. If this suggestion was implemented the same would occur.
The seller in this scenario can list the item for a price higher than any of the 200 current outstanding bids. This situation can easily be handled via the market (except where price goes above 2B). This situation is what occured with Luck of the Gamblers, which I explained in a previous post, which I linked to above.Quote:The seller knows how rare his drops are. He can see that there are 200 people bidding on his drop and he can see that there are none up for sale. The seller merely tells the buyers outside the market that if they want it now they can meet his price or they can wait in the market queue indefinitely. The "Gotta have it now's" aren't willing to wait patiently 6 or 7 months to get the item. Especially since they know at any time after he places his bid on the market someone else can place a higher bid then he did and knock him down lower on the market queue.
As stated, the fact that a character can only hold 2 Billion is irrelevant.Quote:What game have you been playing where you think players are limited to only holding 2 billion inf? When you place a bid on the market that money is removed from your character. Each slot in the market can hold a bid for 2 billion inf. And everyone knows there are more than one item that is listed in the market that has been removed from play in the game. Players use those items to "bank" inf over 2 billion.
Thus using the trade feature players can easily sell things for more than 2 billion by making multiple trade transactions. Once 2 billion is reached a player only has to bid 2 billion on something like a Wentworths Teleporter Inspiration and his character can hold another 2 billion.
A level 1 character with only 3 market slots can hold 8 billion inf. 2 billion on the character itself and 6 billion in bids on nonexistant items.
As I have explained above a seller who cannot afford list fees can look at the current highest bid and post an item for sale at any low amount and receive, in payment, whatever is the current highest bid. Also, sellers who can't afford listing fees under the current system are also burdened with choice of whether to list low or not. As I have explained above, and in a previous post with a decision tree, which I linked to above, a seller who cannot afford high listing fees struggles in the current system as well. These sellers who cannot afford high listing fees would still use the market because they can know when using the market is financially beneficial to them.Quote:If your going to list the sellers asking price then you'll have to get rid of the listing fees so poorer sellers can then price their drops competitively with the richer players. If buyers can see the list prices then the poorer players will stop selling their drops on the market because they will know they can't get the full value of the item on the market. Instead they'll sell them outside the market. That means less items will be available on the market and the prices will then get more expensive because the supply dropped.
I have not addressed several of your other posts and have also not addressed some segments of some of your posts. If you would like me to address them please provide me a link to them and please point out the exact statements which you would like to address.
I believe I have adequately demonstrated that this suggestion:
1) Does not cause transactions to go off market
2) Does not eliminate the concept of "highest bid to lowest sell"
3) Does not hinder sellers who cannot afford high list fees in greater manner than they are hindered now.
4) Does not cause prices to rise due to decreased supply
As you surely know I am not able to easily understand many topics. If you are going to respond or refute any of my points please attempt to include as many examples using hypothetical City of Heroes market situations, statistics, data, and logic as possible. Including these elements would help me understand the points you are conveying.
*EDIT* Added my opinion on suggestion.
I would also like to add that I am apathetic to whether this suggestion is implemented or not. It would neither help nor hinder my personal market usage nor do I believe it would significantly help nor hinder the player base. The question of whether this should be implemented mostly hinges on how much you think the market should function like a store verse how much you like the concept of the market being a mini-game. -
Quote:The situation you described would not occur. Remember in every transaction there are two parties: a buyer and a seller. There is no reason why the bid of 175M would go off market. The bidder of 175M would need to find someone willing to sell at 175M. Why would a player be willing to sell off market at 175M but not on the market for 175M? The transaction at 175M could easily be facilitated via the market.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
you see that 265m sale? that is what the seller is going to want to get. you see that highest bid of 175m? guess where the sale is going? off market. you have now just shown why this is not a good idea. thank you for doing our work for us.
-
Quote:The question isn't whether it is hard or not, nor whether it is complicated or not. The question is why. Why would you trade off the market as opposed to using the market? Specifically, why would displaying the best bid and best list price cause players to trade off market? No, you have not answered this question yet.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Where do you get the idea that off market trading is complicated? Direct trading between players has been in the game for 6 years.
And why would you think it's hard to find someone interested in buying? What with global channels, SG's, and the forums it isn't that hard to find a buyer. Heck I've watched guys on the forums here get together and do cross server/cross faction transactions. I've even seen players buy and sell supergroups/bases cross server/faction.
*EDIT* Maybe there are some misunderstandings at work. I made a picture of what I am thinking this suggestion means.
Is this what we are talking about? -
Quote:No. It does not. In the first example why isn't the purchaser who buys the item off market placing his bids on the market? Let's add some #s to the example and consider the effects of competition.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
for the seller-buyer transacation: seller goes to market. knows what said drop is worth and doesn't see any best bids anywhere neaer that. player goes off market with goods.
for buyer-seller transaction: buyer goes to market to get that special 2b+ io/recipe. buyer sees 1,000 bids at 2b. buyer goes off market to purchase without waiting in a line that won't fill until the yr 2269.
does that make it easier for you to understand now?
Let's say the item in question is a Respec Recipe. Let's say the seller consider the value of the item between 150M and 200M. He is going to try for 200M but he would accept 150M. The seller goes to the market and sees that the highest current offer is 100M. The seller attempts to coordinate an off market transaction for 200M.
A buyer has a choice. He can be the first person in line for the item by bidding 101 million, or he can buy the item now for 200 million. Some buyers will bid more than 100 million for the item. A buyer has incentive to use the market instead of purchasing off market. Thus, the "best bid" amount will rise. Transactions will be lured back to the market. Players will not be pushed away from using the market due to displaying the best list and best bid amount.
The second example does not discriminate between the current system and a system that displays the highest bid amount. It is irrelevant. Displaying or not displaying best bid and best list amounts has no bearing on the players choices. -
Quote:I have explained several times that it would not drive players to conduct sales outside the market and explained why it wouldn't. I will use this moment to repeat myself once again.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
why would someone be stupid and put it up for 1? and how can someone not have listing fees to list it for at least 10-100,00? this is not a good idea at all for the market as has been explained several times to you that it will kill the market by driving almost all sales outside of the market.
Quote:Let's say, for example, that you have found a Respec Recipe that regularly sells for 200,000,000 Inf. Sadly, you only have enough Inf to list it for 1 million. If there was a system in place that showed you the current highest bid you would know when there is a current outstanding bid for 200,000,000 or something close and acceptable to you. Then, when you saw there was such a bid, you'd be able to post your item with a reserve price of 1 and know you'd still receive 200M or whatever that "something close and acceptable to you" amount was. So when you say "why would someone be stupid and put it up for 1?" The answer is a glaringly obvious "because he knows it will sell for the amount he wants." It doesn't that the seller lists his item for a low amount because the best bid amount is displayed, he will get the best bid amount, and the "lowest list price goes to highest bid amount" still functions.Quote:4) Best Offer displayer. Highest bid 100M.
A) He knows the highest bid is 100M. He lists for 1 and gets 100M.
So my question remains, why would this drive players to use off market transactions? Please show me an example that lists current best bid amounts and best list amounts and why it is beneficial to both parties. -
Players who say this suggestion will cause players to use a real black market need to remember that both parties need to benefit from using the black market for the transaction to occur. For example, for IOs that go for more than 2 Billion (which is caused by players being unable to hold more than 2 Billion) players use off market transactions because the seller will receive more Inf than when using the real consignment houses and a buyer is able to obtain his item with predictability. Otherwise, a buyer would have to wait in line with everyone else who bid 2 Billion. Players current have an incentive to use a real black market. Using off market transactions spares players from the 10% transaction fee. This dual benefit would not change with a display of bids and list amounts.
I would enjoy reading an example and how a display of bid and sell amounts would frequently cause both a buyer and seller to benefit more than they do now from using off market transactions. Examples need to include the current "best offer" and current "best bid". -
Quote:If only there was a way for a player who finds a valuable item who has low Inf to ensure that he doesn't get screwed over.Originally Posted by NordBlast
And BTW, as it was pointed before, poor player with insufficient listing funds can be very easily screwed in the existent "blind" market: "Snags for 1 inf" thread in The Market and Inventions forum is great example of that.
Let's say, for example, that you have found a Respec Recipe that regularly sells for 200,000,000 Inf. Sadly, you only have enough Inf to list it for 1 million. If there was a system in place that showed you the current highest bid you would know when there is a current outstanding bid for 200,000,000 or something close and acceptable to you. Then, when you saw there was such a bid, you'd be able to post your item with a reserve price of 1 and know you'd still receive 200M or whatever that "something close and acceptable to you" amount was.
Someone should make a suggestion so that people who found valuable items but don't have the Inf for listing fees wouldn't have to gamble and pray that a current outstanding bid was high. **EDIT** THIS COMMENT MAY CONTAIN DRY WIT** -
Quote:I will treasure being told this for a very long time.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Wake up and read the Market forums.
-
Quote:I am playing City of Heroes. A player can only hold 2 billion. Thank you for elaborating how players can get around this limitation. I'm sure your explanation will help some other player who was unaware that they could get around this limitation.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
What game have you been playing where you think players are limited to only holding 2 billion inf? When you place a bid on the market that money is removed from your character. Each slot in the market can hold a bid for 2 billion inf. And everyone knows there are more than one item that is listed in the market that has been removed from play in the game. Players use those items to "bank" inf over 2 billion.
Thus using the trade feature players can easily sell things for more than 2 billion by making multiple trade transactions. Once 2 billion is reached a player only has to bid 2 billion on something like a Wentworths Teleporter Inspiration and his character can hold another 2 billion.
A level 1 character with only 3 market slots can hold 8 billion inf. 2 billion on the character itself and 6 billion in bids on nonexistant items.
I am not sure to how this is relevant to the discussion of displaying market bids and list prices. Perhaps you could explain that to me. You have already stated that some items trade for more than 2 billion off market. Thank you for pointing that out. I also explained the obvious when I said that this occurs because players cannot bid more than 2 billion on the market because they cannot hold more than 2 billion. Thus, the market ceases to function when prices are above 2 billion.
I'm not sure how or why these facts are relevant to the discussion. The ability to trade items that can sell for more than 2 billion does not change whether bid amounts and list amounts are displayed. In the current system, when they are not displayed, the market does not function when items would regularly sell for over 2 billion. If the system is changed to display list amounts and bid amounts the market would still not function. -
Quote:This occurs in the City of Heroes market now to a certain degree. A player can see the last 5 price. He can then bid slightly higher or list slightly lower than the last 5 price.Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
No, I'm trying to give a counterexample to the absolute statement "more information = better market". It may not be the best analogy, I admit, but the gas wars had a similar effect to what would happen with everything visible in our market.
Gas wars: one gas station lowers its prices to undercut nearby competitors. Nearby competitor undercuts the first station to attract more business. Repeat.
CoH/V consignment house with all information visible: Seller lists price just under an existing sale price in order to get the sale first, at a similar price. Repeat. Buyer puts bit just over an existing buy order in order to get the purchase first, at a similar price. Repeat.
The concept you described is called "competition". Increased competition causes more stable prices. That may or not be something players and developers wish to have. -
Quote:The market does not function when items sell for more than 2 billion due to player limitations of only being able to hold 2 billion Inf. Are you suggesting that all items will sell for 2 billion?Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
WRONG! This is currently going on with the PvP purple IO's.
A seller can do the same thing in the market system by listing his item for a price that is higher than the current highest bid.Quote:Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You really have no idea how supply and demand works do you.
The seller knows how rare his drops are. He can see that there are 200 people bidding on his drop and he can see that there are none up for sale. The seller merely tells the buyers outside the market that if they want it now they can meet his price or they can wait in the market queue indefinitely.
A player who wants to purchase his item immediately simply needs to view the current lowest list price and bid that amount.Quote:Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The "Gotta have it now's" aren't willing to wait patiently 6 or 7 months to get the item. Especially since they know at any time after he places his bid on the market someone else can place a higher bid then he did and knock him down lower on the market queue.
I will use my knowledge of Supply and Demand to now explain to you what will happen in a situation where items sell quickly and there are currently no items listed for sale. This situations demonstrates that at the current price Demand is higher than Supply. In such a situation price will rise. Price will rise because some sellers will see that Demand is greater than supply at this price. These sellers understand the Equilibrium Price is higher than the current price. These sellers will list their item higher than the current price.
This example has occurred in City of Heroes. Luck of the Gamblers used to be virtually be unavailable for sale for instant purchase. Some savvy players listed their Luck of the Gamblers for higher prices. These players continued raising their list price until a balance occurred where LotGs sold at this price consistently while still have some available for sale for immediate purchase.
The concept I have demonstrated here is "Equilibrium Price." By displaying current outstanding bid prices and current list prices Equilibrium Price is more likely to be reflected in current market prices.
*EDIT*
Here's a link to a website of economics for kids that may be more effective at explaining Supply and Demand to you. -
Quote:That wouldn't happen. That's ludicrous. Players aren't going to frequently get better deals off the market. Every exchange needs a buyer and a seller. If you are a seller who wants to sell his item for more than on the market then you need to find a buyer who wants to pay more than the item goes for on the market. Why wouldn't the buyer simply buy from the market?Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
heres another question... if everyone sees this and starts bidding the same thing to get the best price, how long are they going to have to wait for their bid to fill? and if the buyer sees this and sees that there are no bids worth placing whatever he has in the market, how long before everything starts getting sold in the underground?
If you are a buyer who wants to pay less than what an item goes for on the market you need to find a seller who will sell for less than an item goes for on the market. Why doesn't that seller sell on the market? -
More information will cause prices to be more stable. By having more information available players will be inclined to bid closer to the "best bid price" and list their items closer to the "best list price." Players will take these actions because they want their bids to succeed and they want their listed items to sell.
Marketeers make profit when prices are more volatile. The more prices go up and down the more potential profit is to be made by marketeering. A system that has more stable prices has less potential profit for marketeers. However, marketeers who monitor prices regularly can watch for the natural rise and fall of profits and seize those situations with certainty that they have occurred. The result of this increased display of information is that flippers will have to work harder to profit. They have to actively monitor items for rises and falls in prices unlike now when an unsuspecting player may list an item for a low price not knowing that the flippers lowball bid is the highest current offer.
Players can still purchase and sell items when not at the market. Prices naturally rise and fall over time. This occurs because sometimes 10 sellers appear in a row and sometimes 10 buyers appear in a row. Also, the market naturally changes over time due to a changing player base and changing player wants. Placing bids below the current best bid still gives a player the possibility of purchasing the item at a later time. Placing items for sale above the listed price also grants a player the possibility of selling their item at a later date.
Decision tree of a player who has little funds but has a valuable item. Tree for displayed bid prices and the current system. We'll assume in all situations that the item regularly sells for 100 million Inf and we'll compare when the current highest bid is 100M and 5M. The player can see that there are outstanding bids. The player can only list the item for 1 Inf.
Player goes to market. Sees he can't list item for 100M...
1) Current System: Current highest bid 5M
Player looks and sees outstanding bids. He doesn't know what they are. He can decide to gamble or sell off market.
A) He decides to gamble. It sells for 5M Inf.
B) He decides to sell off market. He gets whatever he can find but has to work by posting, broadcasting, and coordinating an exchange time.
2) Current System. Highest bid 100M
A) He decides to gamble. It sells for 100M Inf.
B) He decides to sell off market. He gets whatever he can find but has to work by posting, broadcasting, and coordinating an exchange time.
3) Best Offer displayed. Highest bid 5M.
A) He knows the highest bid is 5M. He knows he doesn't want to list his item for 1. He sells off market or waits for a higher bid.
4) Best Offer displayer. Highest bid 100M.
A) He knows the highest bid is 100M. He lists for 1 and gets 100M.
Thus, in a displayed bid system a player with little inf and a valuable item knows when to post his item for sale on the market. He doesn't have to do guesswork like he does now.
I don't understand the logic of "players are more likely to take their items off market." My perplexed mind at such baffling logic thinks your reasoning sounds like "So... your plan is that you don't want to list the item when you can see what people are bidding and listing at because you'd rather sell off market where two people tell each other what they want to bid at and list at?" -
Quote:A system that displays bids tends to make more stable markets. Prices won't fluctuate up and down as much as they do now. Displaying market information would make the market a more store like environment.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The problem with this is that it actually hurts casual players more than marketeers. Marketeers don't make profits due to a lack of transparency on the market (well we do, but it's not our primary profit source) we make most of our profits due to the fluctuations in the supply (and therefore price) of an item over time. Increased transparency of pricing means that casual players will tend to get less for their items.
Increased transparency only tells you the state of the market at a moment in time. Unless you are willing to spend the time following it you don't know how much the item is actually worth, only what people are bidding/asking right now. Currently if a players lists an item below market price they still tend to get something close to the market price since people have no way of knowing exactly what their asking price is. With visible prices anything priced below market price will get snapped up at exactly that price almost immediately. So prices for marketeers will go down. We're the ones who would be checking the market regularly for low bit items to snap up. Conversely the price that BUT IT NAO players pay is unlikely to change, they will just be able to see exaclty what it is.
A double blind auction system is actually one of the fairest market designs out there. The problem is that it requires a bit more effort to learn than the others. The upside is that if you don't learn it you will still tend to get a fair market price when selling.
Finally to everyone who will post in this thread: marketeer, anti-marketeer, and PvPer alike. Mod8 has locked two similar threads in the last week, can we try and keep this one civil?
Borrowing part of a line from your post: The upside of a market that displays more bid information is that you will almost always get the fair market price when buying or selling.
