Calibre

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"You need not be personally insulting as you do so. It's the apex of civility to point out errors as politely as possible, keeping the claws sheathed as it were. "

I sure like this idea but, our players believe powers and tactics are more horrible than cursing and lack of civility.

You and i can continue to try to set an example for these angry people but I haven't seemed to have any effect whatsoever.

My only prob with your post is you did what we are asking them not to do. You threw in a quick insulting jab at the end of your post. That defeats the purpose of showing civility mon.

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What can I say? I'm only an American. We can't help it.



Cal2

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I'm not bothering with you.

It's beneath me.

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Well, whatever it is that's beneath you, apparently it's far more shallow than I was led to believe.

être de bonne humeur, mon cher


Cal2

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Surely I deserve more of a rejoinder than: can I have your stuff?

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Not really, no.

Here's the skinny. Thanks for the kind words, but the rationality is useful for arguments of reason.

It simply doesn't stand up to problems of preference. I prefer Coke. You might prefer Pepsi. There's no rational discourse to broach that topic. You could go on and on about the reasons you prefer Pepsi to Coke, but that's simply extension of the essential subjectivity of the argument.

Blaming Statesman for the "disasterous policies perpetrated on a game I've been following since it was merely a dark development forum years and years ago" is aggressive, non-constructive and frankly inappropriate.

Nevermind the fact that the game's initial success are at least as attributable to him. Or that I, among other players, am actually having more fun now than ever in the game.

If you're not -- well, sorry. But you don't speak for me, or for anyone else in the playerbase. Conflating your argument is a falsehood.

I don't find your argument even remotely worthwhile to address its many points of inductive, rather than deductive logic, it's fallacies, or it's inappropriate presumptions.

So, I'm telling you to go [censored] yourself sideways.

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And yet, you still fail to address my legitimate critique. Statesman, himself, acknowledged his role in the decisions I specifically denounce. How else can you critique such things but in an aggressive manner? You need not be personally insulting as you do so. It's the apex of civility to point out errors as politely as possible, keeping the claws sheathed as it were.

A fine distinction that apparently escapes you. Perhaps I've overestimated your abilities.

Cal2

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No, really. Stuff. Now.

Also, the door hitting you on the way out and all that good stuff.

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Flaming1, in all honesty, I expected something, anything from you more reflective of your laid-back insight. Or, at the very least, your intellect. I've read many posts of yours and was intrigued with your calm rationality. Not quite the same as Clintonian's, of course, but nevertheless cohesive and mutually respectful.

I've laid out above merely a fraction of my abiding antagonism with Statesman and his, what I feel, disasterous policies perpetrated on a game I've been following since it was merely a dark development forum years and years ago. Surely I deserve more of a rejoinder than: can I have your stuff?

Cal2

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Yeah, but that's what he said, just not with your language.

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I don't particularly feel like parsing out States' post in detail -- but you're not very correct.

In fact, you're quite wrong.

Also, can I have your stuff?

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Oh GAWD, how could you lower yourself to such a pathetic cliche?

But, sure, you can: once VSOH releases.

Cal2

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I dunno -- I find it telling that since States posted, the overwhelming bulk of the thread consists of direct replies to him.

Granted, it's no small function of the forum -- to facilititate communication between the playerbase and the Devs. But I can't help but sense examples of the berating and personal attacks provided above discourage that kind of interaction.

For what it's worth, States is a bigger man than I -- I have far less compunction telling people to go [censored] themselves sideways.

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Yeah, but that's what he said, just not with your language.

I feel something fundamental has altered Cryptic for the worst. No idea what and, frankly, I no longer care.


Cal2

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When we release levels 41-50 in CoH, we quickly realized that these levels didn’t offer any new powers...Instead of making new sets, we choose pre-existing powers and renamed them as Ancillary Power Pools.

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This was extremely disappointing. However, less=more is a very apt idiom, in this case. By doing this, you allowed Heroes to choose how they would continue their own stories, and yet not completely skew balance. A Happy Accident, despite your inability to create new powers.

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During CoV development, I wanted to make sure that the game offered a different experience than CoH. One case of this was that CoV became far more focused on storyline and background than CoH was. We tried to create a vibrant villainous organization that players would want to be part of. For inspiration, I looked to the world of comic books, which are filled with cool, evil organizations. I also wanted our villain versions of “ancillary power pools” to be unique; with the emphasis on Arachnos, I decided to create the Patron system.

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Nice try, but you failed. Seriously. I realize what your goal was, but unless you were focusing this storyline on very young adult males, exclusively, then you failed to deliver. That's the Story failing. If you really want my critique on why I believe it failed, I'll be happy to post it. Meanwhile, we're talking Patron Powers here.

Unique? How do you figure that? Every single power set is the same and mimics existing powers, but in such a manner that it violates player choice, origin, powerset and just basic good taste. In addition, each power set contains powers that completely violate every villain Archtype. Pets for Stalkers, etc and so on. You also decided to copy a significant Mastermind power sans control. This is unique, how?

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Many have complained that this hinders creativity and roleplaying. ...The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.

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They don't dovetail at all. They violate, as I note above, origin, archtype, theme, Story AND established power sets. Clearly designed, IMO, to lure in the potential adolescent market (coupled with those ridiculous mayhem missions). Why not admit it? Have you forgotten that you have older gamers playing here? I smell a rat. I can't believe someone as intelligent and dedicated to gaming as you, would seriously consider these Patron Powers as acceptable, unique and 'story oriented' features. You also had to bandaid the entire system with hard, ingame data---a major no-no in game design. Surely this sent up flaming red flags in the conference room????

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What fascinates me is ...

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Red Herring, Rhetoric and Sophistry. If you really thought this way, then CoH would not be the game it is. CoH is the better game, period. I don't know why; I don't know what happened to change your game design philosophy---but whatever it was, it doesn't bode well.

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Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future…oh, by the way, the reason that Electrical Power is reddish is so that it could mesh well with some Patron Powers. That was the intent, at least. And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys’ felt that Chum was just too campy.

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Sophistry worthy of a politician. You failed to address our concerns. You offered no solution and promised nothing but to 'keep this in mind'. What, exactly? That we didn't react to these powers as you thought we would? That you made a mistake---a big one? That Chum Spray is too campy and Bile Spray is better?

What? Let me guess: legal has come down hard on you for posting 'off the cuff' and making unsubstantiated, public 'promises' because of all the previous 'promises' you eventually discovered you could not keep?

My disappointment hasn't been in any way mitigated by Statesman's commentary. It's evident he is no longer willing or allowed to lay out the status of the game or his vision for it. Evidentally, everything he's said in the past has come back to bite and the legal department has had to put a stop to it. Completely understandable.

Those of you who are satisfied with how things are and look for nothing more---or, at the least, accept what comes forth---are no doubt giddy with glee about this response. But I was assured of much, much more. Apparently I'm not going to get it in this game.

thanks

Calibre2

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I did like chum. Recalled the great 7-Up commercial with a taste test...

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I have a lot to say about what you just wrote, but I'll take the time to respond to each point as it deserves.

But, I will take this much on myself: since chum spray is gone, I'll remove my avatar. Bile Spray, btw, isn't any better. The power is still ridiculous. The entire spread of Patron Powers, their look, etc, prevents me from seriously considering them as an option.


Sorry I couldn't be more enthusiastic about this, but, afterall, you didn't bother addressing our concerns: we're still forced to play YOUR way, aren't we?

But you'll at least get me to remove the avatar.

Cal2

The bad idea isn't having PPPs, it's in giving players no choice on the matter.

I'm still not getting how the apologists for the Devs are rationalizing this [censored]. So far, I get this:

1: Wait and see. Already refuted as errant nonsense. We've already waited, we've already seen. There's nothing left to see, period. This is how it is, how it's going to be.

2: Conform or be cast out: nullify everything you've ever thought or written about your character: it doesn't matter, never mattered in the first place. Umm, and why are my hero characters not facing this ultimatum?

3: Stop whining and wait for I8 for a chance of more options: In a word: no. In a few more words: No, I'm tired of waiting and will wait no longer.

4: You don't have imagination. BS, plain and simple. If we didn't have imagination in the first place, this entire argument wouldn't exist.

So, we're gimped, those of us who will not conform. That's how it is, how it's going to be.

Cal2

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I think I won't level up my 40s, save for Sixteen of Clubs. I hate the Patron Pools, so I will simply avoid playing the characters that I don't want to be tied down with. I sincerely hope that, I believe it was Castle that said this, they are rethinking the Patron Pools.

If not, meh, I'll play my one Brute, and then play my Electric Brute. Then, I'll probably meander back to CoH.

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Now, with this, I can /agree..with just a few alterations in AT choices.

Cal2

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I'm losing it because the promised features---promised since mid-beta CoH, mind you, have either been axed outright or displaced so far in the future that they have become moot.

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God forbid they take their time or have priorities. You want Skills? They want Skills to be fun.

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The direction of CoV is baffling to me on a certain level. I tend to over-analyze, of course, but to me, it seems Cryptic has decided to revert to arcade-stype, FPS gameplay in order to appeal to a younger audience. I dare not use the 'adolescent' word for fear of unwanted consequences.

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...buh? Are you complaining about Mayhem Missions?

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*hides behind Lord Recluse, quivering with dread*

No! never! Me? I'm not guilty of such heinous outrage!



Cal2

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PPS: anyone going to put up a mirror somewhere so that guy stuck in the Sands can see this? I hope? I wish I could. Though I disagree with our boys and girls being in the Sands, as it were, I still will do anything I can to help em out.

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I think I hooked him up.

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Cool



Cal2

You've said what I've been saying for weeks now: you've just done it with more class, less rancor and an abiding enthusiasm for CoH which I am slowly losing.

I'm losing it because the promised features---promised since mid-beta CoH, mind you, have either been axed outright or displaced so far in the future that they have become moot.


The direction of CoV is baffling to me on a certain level. I tend to over-analyze, of course, but to me, it seems Cryptic has decided to revert to arcade-stype, FPS gameplay in order to appeal to a younger audience. I dare not use the 'adolescent' word for fear of unwanted consequences.

So, FWIW, I agree with you completely and hope you recover your enthusiasm in CoH.

Cal2

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I've nearly completely soloed my Stalker to 40, as well.

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Then you should know how you'll get through these Mayhem Missions.

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That, however, wasn't my question. How are we supposed to put out enough damage in the limited time we get to complete these ridiculous missions?

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The same way we put out enough damage outside of Hide in both PVE and PVP. If all you do is "BU+AS->Run" then yes, I suppose you would have a big problem.

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And, they ARE ridiculous, you realize...?

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To you, maybe. What about those of us who want a goal disguised as wanton destruction? Ah, right. I remember. We're adolescents who aren't into 'serious gaming.' Shame on us for being unlike you and not knowing what 'serious gaming' is.

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That's not fair, Tenryuu! I never said anyone was an adolescent if they liked these missions. I said: enjoy them if you like this sort of thing.

I admonished the Devs for using an obvious ploy to lure in the 'adolescents among us'. Heck, my nephew is an adolescent---how could I imply anything negative about being one. I was one at one time--believe it or not.

As for serious gaming: I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone wanting this kind of gameplay doesn't take their entertainment seriously. Apologies to all who felt I did. I meant that I, me, myself and I, do not consider blow-it-all-up, arcade-type video-gaming to be 'serious entertainment' for me.

Serious as in, I prefer entertainment on an adult level. Let's face it, I could entertain myself by playing hopscotch on my sidedwalk outside---but I wouldn't get entertainment from the game, only from pondering my sanity.

to Lady Sadako: yeah, I read about the various cameras, but again, how can you square this 'sneaking' with the time factor?

I remain skeptical about all of this. I feel these missions have taken away time/resources/programming from other features that were promised long ago. Apparently, all of that has been axed in favor of all this 'new' stuff. So, my annoyance grows and grows and grows.

Cal2

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Not to whine on everyone's parade, but can you tell me exactly how a STALKER is supposed to do any of these missons?

Or a Dom?


hmmm?


Didn't think so.

Cal2


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Oh, you've played the Mayhem Missions?

WAIT THAT'S RIGHT YOU HAVEN'T

You can solo any mission in this game. Just don't expect to do it on Relentless, whiner. My most-played villains are a Stalker and a Dominator. I've done fine.

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Pathetic rejoinder.

I've nearly completely soloed my Stalker to 40, as well. That, however, wasn't my question. How are we supposed to put out enough damage in the limited time we get to complete these ridiculous missions? And, they ARE ridiculous, you realize...?

Cal2

Not to whine on everyone's parade, but can you tell me exactly how a STALKER is supposed to do any of these missons?

Or a Dom?


hmmm?


Didn't think so.

Cal2

PS: don't bother saying: team up, btw. Unless every AT has to team up to do those missions, then I don't care to hear it.


PPS: anyone going to put up a mirror somewhere so that guy stuck in the Sands can see this? I hope? I wish I could. Though I disagree with our boys and girls being in the Sands, as it were, I still will do anything I can to help em out. Tangent here. Everyone go back to your drooling over the blow-it-up, swaggering childis..er, innovative, enthralling mayhem content. bah :P

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Any talk of changing the permanent part of Patrons or something?

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It's really not as simple as "let's let them respec it!"

Since Patron sets are tied to Contacts you receive, you get the set of the Contact you choose. We'd need to add a bunch of technology to take away access to Contacts (something we don't do currently), to make sure you couldn't end up with multiple Patron Pools.

We have talked about it though, and are not through talking about it either.

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How about offering one more choice? Either we choose the Patron route to Epic powers OR we choose the generic route (which I define as the choices Heroes have). Doable?

Cal2

PS: thanks indeed for taking the time to answer some questions, man. I appreciate it very much. Half my teeth-gnashing has been nullified by just a few of your responses.

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You know it's doable, Cal, it's just not been worked on yet.

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But, er, I don't, Clint. There's stuff I find out all the time that I gripe about in strong terms only to find out later (usually from a _Castle_ Post) that it's a software issue rather than a design issue

*sigh*

Perhaps, the way they've coded CoV or some aspect of its engine precludes allowing the APPs. Maybe they believe these powers would cause all kinds of balance headaches if villains have access to them. Maybe they feel that allowing those on the Villain side would obligate them to providing PPPs on the Hero side---and all the griping about not having these powers available at the outset. Then there's the whole issue of respecing completely out of APPs or Epics whatever into PPPs on the Hero side and so on and so on.

In all honesty, I think 90% of the gripes round here (well, ok, 80% maybe) would disappear or never happen if we simply had more information available on a timely basis. I mean, of course, design information. _Castle_ does an excellent job on sheer programming info, etc and so on. I do, of course, realize that this can hardly happen if we expect these people to get any work done whatsoever heh heh.

Cal2

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Any talk of changing the permanent part of Patrons or something?

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It's really not as simple as "let's let them respec it!"

Since Patron sets are tied to Contacts you receive, you get the set of the Contact you choose. We'd need to add a bunch of technology to take away access to Contacts (something we don't do currently), to make sure you couldn't end up with multiple Patron Pools.

We have talked about it though, and are not through talking about it either.

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How about offering one more choice? Either we choose the Patron route to Epic powers OR we choose the generic route (which I define as the choices Heroes have). Doable?

Cal2

PS: thanks indeed for taking the time to answer some questions, man. I appreciate it very much. Half my teeth-gnashing has been nullified by just a few of your responses.

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every time a PLer says, "PLing doesn't hurt anyone! Why can't I do it if I want?"

Remember kids, PLing hurts you. And your little dog too.

--NT

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NT... can you explain that?

I don't PL, but I still want to know how those things that do not effect other players hurts anyone.

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Because it causes Dev Teams to switch into Rabid Hunter-Seeker Mode as they exhaust every possible resource in a useless, self-defeating operation to stop powergamers in their tracks. They can't win this battle and they can't stand the fact that they can't----but like moths to a gas lamp, they nevertheless keep circling, waiting to pounce on them again.

In my experience, this does nothing but make the general customer base angry. Sure, it takes time for the majority of players to realize what's going on, but eventually they do and they get fed up and move on. The powergamers stay to thwart them again or move on to their next target game.

Cal2

My grief with the Dev Team has nothing to do with 'nerfage' or 'balancing'. Face it, every MOG Dev Team simply must do this---many times whether they want to or not. The overall good of the game requires this. In fact, I'd be extremely concerned if they didn't re-evaluate the state of the game and make appropriate data/numbers/system changes.

My problems lie in other areas: failed promises, radical alteration of established gameplay for their own reasons (not the good of the game), special features reserved for their NPC prestige/signature heroes/villains, radical refocus of the game on PvP (when we were promised this would not happen), refusal to discuss our major issues publically, postponed indefinitely non-combat gameplay, etc and so on.

The latest fiasco being, of course, the entire Patron Pool Powers where, once again, our stories are relegated in favor of NPCs. I don't believe I've ever before played a game where NPCs get the majority of the new features and unique abilities at the expense of player characters. I could understand this IF these NPCs were paying the subscription fees; or, IF the fiction was supremely inspiring. As far as I know, this is not so.

So, I'm annoyed, irritated, even. Especially because I cannot debate my issues with the Dev Team (they simply will not discuss any of it) and I realize, regardless of debate, this is how things are and how they are going to be.



PS: thanks for compliments on Avatar. It is not my work, however, but the work of another poster here whose name escapes me at the moment.

Cal2

*gives a nod to Puretone*

You've precisely captured my current mood towards Cryptic exactly, though for different reasons.

Cal2

Can someone rationalize the 'chat spam ban' stuff for me? I mean I'm just not getting the reason for wasting resources and programming time on something /ignore can fix instantaneously.

Or, are they suggesting that the problem is so prevalent that ignore lists cannot handle it?

Because I rarely see any kind of spamming on Virtue other than combat spam. Sure, now and then some idiot will try to take over broadcast or local in AP or some such, but I find the solution is just to /ignore and continue on my way.

Later, I clear the list if I need to.

So, why all the drama on chatspam all of a sudden?

Cal2

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Someone make a big deal about Patron costumes so we can get confirmation!

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I'd never thought about it until now. It'd be freakin' awesome if we could get/use costume options dealing with our Patrons. *would love some Crab Spider armor* =O ..or even the blades on their forearms...

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Getting Arachnos-style outfits? I don't care if the attacks heal people, it'd be so worth it.

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You can have my share of the Arachnos costume pieces AND patron powers.

Cal2

I don't understand the explanation. Can someone break it down clearly so a non min/maxer, anti-powergamer can comprehend?

Not to suggest that anyone who understands it is any of the aforementioned, just that those who are apparently do.

I think this post by Statesman illustrates clearly that CoH/V is now viewed as nothing more than a min/maxing game where story is only applicable to rationalize 'nerfs' and rigid, choiceless gameplay. Once upon a time, this game was all about being a superhero like those we used to see in comicbooks.


No more, apparently.


thanks for the assistance in advance...

Cal2

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I guess I have 2 questions regarding the "hard wiring" of making patron powers permanent.

1.) how will this effect when hero to villian and vice versa happens?

Will the powers still be avalibale to a villian turned hero?

2.) How will epic power pools be handled for heroes who become villians? will they also get to chose patron powers? will they lose thier epic pools?

Seems kinda confusing when one set is permanet and the other isn't.

Thanks

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Good questions, and the lack of easy answers has likely contributed to a Hero/Villain-switch TF not being implemented anytime soon.

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Quick and easy answer?

There might not be side-switching after level 40.

Here's where I came up with that. The zones that have entrances to Pocket-D. The DJ is not good or evil but freelance. I could speculate that he'd be the perfect contact for a fallen/redeemed story arc. There's three entrances to Pocket-D. Further speculation, those zone levels are the levels that side-switching will be available at.

Did I mention this is speculation?

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Well, if this is postponed yet again and especially because of this PPP nonsense, I'm going to lose my temper again. I hope I can contain myself and not post a childish rant this time heh.

As for the 'not after level 40 to switch': if true, they had better make it absolutely clear BEFORE we level up. I've been planning on at least 2 switches---waiting and waiting and waiting.

Why won't they spill the info on all this? It's becoming tiresome having to gripe over vague tidbits of info. Bah.

Cal2